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John Mew saying mewing won't work after 25  

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Slinky
Trusted Member

I found this on reddit:

Apparently, after 25 it is too late which is contradictory to what Mike Mew has been saying all along

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Posted : 06/04/2020 12:22 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Ok, guess that settles it

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Posted : 06/04/2020 1:44 pm
Sergio-OMS
Eminent Member

Just in case you want some more information regarding this matter and the age limit, the following are Dr. Bill Hang's words, from a conversation we had two years ago:

"I don't believe there are any easy and effective non-surgical approaches to getting significant forward maxillary development in teens even though virtually every malocclusion a teenager has will have a maxilla that needs forward development (Cl I, II, and III). In treating children under age ten I believe that it is possible to get very substantial forward maxillary development but it is not easy to do and requires very good cooperation on the part of a patient to wear appliances effective to actually develop both the maxilla and mandible forward."

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Posted : 06/04/2020 3:21 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

Mission failed we’ll get em next time

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Posted : 06/04/2020 6:38 pm
BarretMaxilla, Autokrator, Oatmeal and 2 people liked
sinned
Estimable Member

John Mew also said teeth in contact drives upswing... I don't think people should be taking what John and Mike Mew say as gospel, imo they get a ton of things wrong.

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Posted : 06/04/2020 7:48 pm
BarretMaxilla, Lowerjawgrowth, RamonT and 3 people liked
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

On the bright side, it doesn't stop working after 18.

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Posted : 06/04/2020 9:04 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

Veteran difficulty for us aged 18 - 25

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Posted : 07/04/2020 4:51 am
PolHolmes
Eminent Member

@harrykanemaxilla 

Nightmare difficulty 25+

 

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Posted : 07/04/2020 3:23 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@polholmes

 

The MSE DLC can help though. Pay to win game.

 

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Posted : 07/04/2020 3:25 pm
Kyte and Autokrator liked
Slinky
Trusted Member

@sinned John Mew knows more about this subject than anyone else 

 

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Posted : 08/04/2020 12:46 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @slinky

@sinned John Mew knows more about this subject than anyone else 

 

Well now, THIS ONE settles it then. Drop everything and give your money to surgeons already. 

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Posted : 08/04/2020 1:24 am
RamonT liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @slinky

@sinned John Mew knows more about this subject than anyone else 

Sutures of the skull don't fuse even if you are 25. This disproves John Mew's statement. I wonder what's the actual reasoning behind his statement though, someone should have asked him to elaborate on that Facebook comment thread.

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Posted : 08/04/2020 2:57 am
Tyronemewer
New Member

Glad that i'm 16 🤩 

Mew is my last hope 🤧

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Posted : 08/04/2020 8:57 am
max iller
Eminent Member

For gods sake someone prove him wrong!

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Posted : 08/04/2020 4:44 pm
RamonT liked
RamonT
Trusted Member
Posted by: @slinky

I found this on reddit:

Apparently, after 25 it is too late which is contradictory to what Mike Mew has been saying all along

It's too late for him to say that.

I'm gonna mew until I die =_=.

P.S. Guys, I'm 55 and I have been mewing for 2 years and 1 month, I started on 3/11/18. I assure you that if you mew properly you'll see results without a doubt, just stay with it, it is really a journey that one should enjoy it.

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Posted : 08/04/2020 4:58 pm
DoubtCrusha_, BarretMaxilla, Marliemew and 2 people liked
Robbie343
Trusted Member

My palate is definitely expanding. Crossing my fingers to get my upward and forward growth back. The maxilla can move after 25 I know that for a fact. 

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Posted : 08/04/2020 5:39 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

I mean, this isn't really new information.  I think it's widely accepted that "soft mewing" after puberty will probably be minimally effective if at all.  The question many are asking is if some kind of extraordinary and concentrated effort, ie. "hard mewing" for most of the day, might be able to mimic the effect of an appliance.

That's what guys like @achilles1 and helmustrebl are experimenting with.  However, none of the Mews are advocating "hard mewing," so under their premise, it's perfectly reasonable for them to conclude that there's not much potential after you're 25.

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Posted : 08/04/2020 6:55 pm
PolHolmes
Eminent Member

@drunkwithcoffee

To be honest I think hard mewing constantly is a very difficult task mentally. If you could somehow get to the point of hard mewing sub-consciously, then surely you would be able to replicate the pressure of an appliance. When I mew very hard I can feel pressure all over my face, it just isn't sustainable though, perhaps hypertrophying my tongue to be able to handle the forces constantly may be a solution. Tongue reps with the chewing gum like Dr Mike suggested perhaps.

PS, whatever happened to Dr Mike? There hasn't been any updates since Christmas on his Youtube channel

 

 

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Posted : 08/04/2020 7:55 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @polholmes

@drunkwithcoffee

To be honest I think hard mewing constantly is a very difficult task mentally. If you could somehow get to the point of hard mewing sub-consciously, then surely you would be able to replicate the pressure of an appliance. When I mew very hard I can feel pressure all over my face, it just isn't sustainable though, perhaps hypertrophying my tongue to be able to handle the forces constantly may be a solution. L

How old are you? A lot of people report sensations on their faces with mewing yet I have never experienced anything similar. However, helmutstrebl didn't either, so perhaps it's an age thing.

 

 

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Posted : 08/04/2020 10:50 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@PolHolmes I agree with you, which is why I think true results on Orthotropic forums are rare.  Most simply don't have the dedication/discipline to build up to what's required to make changes, if those changes are possible.

@Azrael late 20's.  I've only recently started feeling pressure after 3 years of "mewing" because I wasn't doing it correctly.  Make sure your Adam's apple comes up a little bit and the skin under your chin tightens when your back third lifts.  Otherwise you're likely not lifting deep enough.  

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Posted : 08/04/2020 11:24 pm
Slinky
Trusted Member

@ramont I've seen 0 results so far :(. I honestly don't know at this point. Maybe I'm among the unfortunate few who have melted beyond redemption 

 

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Posted : 09/04/2020 12:31 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@slinky

If it's any consolation, I haven't seen any substantial results for the first 1.5 years. I started seeing improvements in my cheekbones, masseters and some other areas only over around the past 6 months. So, in retrospect, the first year and a half was really just about learning the basics of the technique (and I'm still improving the technique continually).

I tend to think that it's not so much that some people are capable of achieving changes from mewing, and other aren't, but that everyone has a "window" within which mewing will be effective, and some people just haven't passed the threshold from outside-the-window to inside-the-window. I'm not talking about an age window here (though that plays a part, too); I'm talking about the minimum level of accuracy, strength, and persistence toward a correct postural technique that will yield results. The threshold in question is different for everyone, which explains why some people achieve improvements easier than others. However, my main point is that mewing is unlikely to result in any substantial improvements until you enter the periphery of what could be considered a good oral posture. For example, if we imagine a spectrum of 10 degrees where 5 is an ideal, balanced oral posture, and anything on either side of that is in some state of imbalance, then each person needs to be within a particular proximity to degree 5 to gain any improvements. Being within the window of 4-6 will be enough to yield results for some people (with 5 being the sweet spot, of course). For others, this range may be wider...or narrower. Going from 1 to 2 or from 10 to 9 gets you closer to a balanced state, but it won't necessarily result in visible improvements until you're sufficiently close to 5.

 

24 years old

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Posted : 09/04/2020 6:16 am
PolHolmes
Eminent Member

@azrael I'm turning 25 in August, however like I said, I find it difficult to achieve the pressure in my face/cheekbones. The annoying part is that I can't achieve said pressure every time. I seem to only find the sweet spot in my mouth for only minutes per day which is kind of irritating, mostly at night when I lie on my back with my face to the ceiling.

 

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Posted : 09/04/2020 11:26 am
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@Elwynn well said.  It's taken me 3 years to get to where I'm at, and I'm still continuously realizing my tongue isn't deep enough.

Did I make any aesthetic progress in those 3 years? No.  But they were necessary for me to develop the tongue strength and mind-body awareness to get to where I'm at today since I don't have the money to see an orthotropic doctor right now.

The number of people mewing properly on these forums is sadly probably very low.  Unless you see an orthotropic doctor, I would say there's a high possibility you're "doing it wrong" if you're just learning from a forum.

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Posted : 09/04/2020 2:49 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I believe the regular members of this forum already understand that there is no consensus on this topic. The idea of "mewing", which is the premise of Orthotropics, was co-opted such that uninformed casual watchers believed that the Mews were offering a cure - despite them making no such claims.

A theory was posed by John Mew, who has endured considerable attack to keep this message resonating. This theory (although attributed to different causes) had been previously iterated by Weston Price (in the western English speaking world, I am aware that others have posited the same concepts in languages that I am not able to access yet- please contact us with information) : Post-Agricultural communities seem to have a high level of craniofacial issues, most visible in the face but certainly evident throughout the entire skull and body structure.

John Mew, correctly, asserted that this lack of proper growth was not genetic. It is epigenetic. John and Mike Mew have gone through considerable struggle to make those involved in all medical fields understand that there is a pandemic of improper growth occurring in people worldwide. There is a progressive groundswell of medical opinion aligning with these viewpoints, such as the AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PHYSIOLOGICAL MEDICINE & DENTISTRY (https://www.aapmd.org/&source=gmail&ust=1586562993573000&usg=AFQjCNH8YiY_0oN6cEkcl8eXKeKNfJNNS Q"> https://www.aapmd.org/ ).  Although the focus has been on OSA and breathing issues, progressively more professions and educated members of the lay public are realizing the vast variety of other mental and physical ailments related to CFD (Cranio-Facial-Dystrophy, or poor physical growth in general) which have become commonplace today.

This is a community effort. We have recognized the issue, and we - as a community - have put our efforts into correcting it

John Mew knows that, by correcting certain postural issues early in growth, the overall development of the person is positively impacted. And we all know that (re-read the name of the website) that these issues extend beyond posture and the simple interaction of forces on the biological mechanism. If it were as simple as attaching forward-pulling headgear onto children, the whole issue solved with mechanical force, this topic would have been resolved in the dawn of agriculture itself. Many of you are knowledgeable to the fact that most traditional societies enforced good body posture and table manners at a young age to implant lifelong habits. Please do not make the mistake of thinking that people from the cultures around the world have not recognized and taken step to prevent CFD.

John and Mike have gone through considerable personal hardship for the sake that we, as a worldwide community, now have the foothold to expand this research and undertake experimentation into this topic.  It is a personal request that if you wish to gain change, than you take good records to accurately monitor your results (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v%3Dsuntq2lGRO8&source=gmail&ust=1586562993573000&usg=AFQjCNHxUnEUqdjgnkQQ4Gd1qWnJCN9qy A"> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suntq2lGRO8 ) and understand that change takes time.

Please note that in the Mew’s opinion the average person will struggle to change to the point where they will gain changes in the position of the maxilla after 25 years of age.

As the human being is in the infancy of its life, if you suppose (for example, through introducing the tropic premise) the idea of the self being in control of the body and becoming well developed, the human being internalizes this idea and seems to flower (at least physically)

Of course, through self-understanding, all is possible

(This post was cowritten by TGW and Mike Mew)

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Posted : 09/04/2020 8:00 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member

I guess don’t be average 

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Posted : 11/04/2020 1:18 am
Autokrator and Odys liked
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

Wait, so is Mew basically walking back what his dad says in that statement, @TGW?

Sounds like he's saying the average person won't be able to do anything, but the insanely dedicated could potentially make some changes.

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Posted : 14/04/2020 9:56 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @drunkwithcoffee

Wait, so is Mew basically walking back what his dad says in that statement, @TGW?

Sounds like he's saying the average person won't be able to do anything, but the insanely dedicated could potentially make some changes.

The average person needs to either be patient to develop the mind-muscle connection that affects change, or they can pay thousands for myofunctional therapy to get a quicker understanding. Most can't do this on their own. 

From reading most threads it is evident that the majority of people have no idea what they are doing. This is why the success rates are in the single digit percentages. This is too new, too difficult to understand for most people, and many lose hope too soon. 

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Posted : 15/04/2020 3:22 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

If I do the tongue ballooning against molars, teeth apart, and good posture. Will my maxilla change? I am 18 years old.

 

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Posted : 15/04/2020 3:37 pm
ovosoundszn
Active Member

@ramont whats your opinion on mewing making someone who is unattractive to women facially , attractive to women facially. Do you think its possible for the majority of people to become attractive from mewing or is it heavily dependent on someones starting point. For example on a scale from 1-100 percent of proper facial development how much percent do you think someone should have at the start for mewing to take them to the attractive level. Amusing someone doesn't have things like bad eye area, bad ipd etc.

 

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Posted : 15/04/2020 3:56 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

I rather have Mike say it doesnt work past 25 thn him saying it works but takes alot of time.

Rather have him recomending people that have bad CFD cases to go do MSE, Alf, DNa, surgery or whatnot thn unwillingly be giving people false hopes. Its not wht he wanted but people somehow come to this site expecting mewing to change their faces/lives when the real problem is in thir heads.

Mewing will only work for aesthetics past 25 if u meet certain criteria as he mentions in his site.

     i.e. symetrical face, somewhat of a stable bite, especially at the back teeth( thts wht allows you the push at the back 3rd of the palate), no scoliosis AND you have to be determined to exercise/mew religiously while at the same time droping old bad habits(slouching at the computer whatever)

----

Im 26 and on my 5th month of treatment with an orthopedic appliance similar to DNA and thhe whole treatment(expansion to solve crossbite, possible mse after, implants on 1 missing tooth, braces) will take years. 

Now imagine if i only did it by mewing/yoga/exercise/biting.. it could be done but it would take a decade?

 

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Posted : 15/04/2020 8:34 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

Mewing as a "treatment" / short-term changes past 25 = Not worth; - Personally i like to control things and religiously mewing, even tho i saw results, was psychollogically a very demanding task that stressed me out;

Mewing as a kid/teen/late teen = Go for it

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Posted : 15/04/2020 8:39 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

Honestly my advice is that you just go for MSE/DNA/Whatever

Even Damon braces will grant you up to 4 or 5mm of arch width increase.

Dont lose your time mewing if you in fact are sure your CFD case is bad.

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Posted : 15/04/2020 8:44 pm
Thomas22 liked
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@roflcopters

Agreed. If you can add in an appliance then do it. I found out a lot of stuff recently. I have cranial side bend, my right side of the face is pulled back, my vertebrate are misaligned. Tmj wear. My mandible is desperate to be more forward. 

I’m starting upper and lower ALFs soon. I believe in mewing 100%, but I want professional guidance along with it because the sooner the pains gone the better. 

 

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Posted : 15/04/2020 9:08 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@ovosoundszn

I've looked at a lot of palate expander, before and after, photos. And I should reiterate, that's palate expanders, rather than mewing.

I think it depends on your genetic potential.

There are cases like this.

And there are cases like this.

 

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Posted : 15/04/2020 9:22 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@roflcopters

"Honestly my advice is that you just go for MSE/DNA/Whatever"

 I agree with that.

 My uninformed gut opinion, all the tooth born devices probably have the same effect. So it doesn't necessarily matter which one you choose.

 MSE might be different in how it reshapes the craneofacial complex. 

 

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Posted : 15/04/2020 9:25 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

John and Mike recently released a video after a long hiatus and mentioned that they have seen some promise with older patients. Mike still states that early development is where the largest core changes are which is common knowledge here, but the fact that The Man Himself mentions 18+ cases showing progress is really [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] good news.

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Posted : 15/04/2020 11:02 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

I personally am sketched by procedures like MSE and appliances, to think we know better than nature is dangerous and who knows what sorta implications forcing the skull apart would have. I'm a hypochondriac so I may be a bit biased toward not wanting to mess with it though. I think the body will adapt to how you use it, and shouldn't be interfered with too much by outside devices.

I am quite excited by fasting for healing and bodily adaptation though lately. I'm currently slimming down all my muscle to make the process of rebuilding a well postured body easier. As well as showing clearer definition of my areas needing improvement. My body is very quick to gain and lose lean weight however, I can't speak for anyone else. But I am trying to do a sort of 'redesign' of my body. Breaking myself down and rebuilding myself. Hopefully without dying (lol!) It's an experiment and I don't know if it will work or not, but with my current understanding and ideas it makes sense. I plan on making a big post about it once I've made it through, so stay tuned!

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Posted : 15/04/2020 11:21 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@eddiemoney

If I do the tongue ballooning against molars, teeth apart, and good posture. Will my maxilla change? I am 18 years old.

 

Do tongue ballooning against all teeth. This is what I recommend but that's just my personal theory. 

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Posted : 16/04/2020 1:25 pm
ovosoundszn
Active Member

@eddiemoney Should the tongue rest against the front teeth for this? 

 

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Posted : 16/04/2020 2:42 pm
Autokrator
Active Member

@roflcopters

Posted by: @roflcopters

no scoliosis

Can you please elaborate on this? I have idiopathic structural scoliosis but it's a really minor case, 10 or 11 degrees (the doctor told me that below 10 degrees it clinically doesn't even considered as scoliosis.) Is there a risk for facial assymetry to get worse or for some reason or another is more difficult for the palate to expand? I'm 20 years old by the way. 

 

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Posted : 16/04/2020 2:52 pm
Oatmeal
Trusted Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @drunkwithcoffee

Wait, so is Mew basically walking back what his dad says in that statement, @TGW?

Sounds like he's saying the average person won't be able to do anything, but the insanely dedicated could potentially make some changes.

The average person needs to either be patient to develop the mind-muscle connection that affects change, or they can pay thousands for myofunctional therapy to get a quicker understanding. Most can't do this on their own. 

From reading most threads it is evident that the majority of people have no idea what they are doing. This is why the success rates are in the single digit percentages. This is too new, too difficult to understand for most people, and many lose hope too soon. 

yes probably, i have difficulty understanding how to establish this mind-muscle connection

no bother however, i guess its good to just stick around for a while and perhaps pay for the latter

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Posted : 16/04/2020 9:29 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: @autokrator

@roflcopters

Posted by: @roflcopters

no scoliosis

Can you please elaborate on this? I have idiopathic structural scoliosis but it's a really minor case, 10 or 11 degrees (the doctor told me that below 10 degrees it clinically doesn't even considered as scoliosis.) Is there a risk for facial assymetry to get worse or for some reason or another is more difficult for the palate to expand? I'm 20 years old by the way. 

 

Well you should ditch your doctor for some1 else that cares. Scoliosis is there and if you don't change ur habits it will only get worse. That's just facts.

 

As it's been said on the forums scoliosis goes hand to hand with arch asymmetries. So it's likely you have a canted occlusal plane, minor crossbite, OR just other type of asymmetry that maybe was caused by bad posture, missing tooth, lack of exercise and chewing, ect, ect, ect..

This makes your head tilt to one side and with time so does your whole body.

     Over simplified Simple example: you lack space of the right side of ur upper arch. Your head tilts to the left because ur tongue has no space to be up. Your left shoulder goes up and right down. Your hips do the contrary and your spine arches. Image here: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nu-chiropractic.com%2F&psig=AOvVaw21WZpHlCskSrXgvNHRlEYz&ust=1587478151815000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCOjlhJ-X9-gCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAU

You should tackle it as soon as soon as you can yes. Tends to get worse. I have it worse thn you so i think i qualify for some advice.

  For body pain(if you have it): YOGA, STRETCHING, RELAX even if  that means mouth breathing.

  Mewing/breathing exercises: Don't hard mew. Dont force things. Like i said before if you lack space on one side of your palate and you hardmew you're going to make things worse. Do some running, try chewing on the underdeveloped side, but dont mew on only one side. Don't mew at all if you can't. Just go for runs/fast walks with a LIGHT LIPSEAL without focusibng on tongue posture.

Most importantly is just knowing how to fully relax while mewing. If you feel that light mewing is constricting/stressing your body out, dont do it. Go stretch ur body and chew on the under developed side. Change ur bad habits.

Treat yourself if you can. If you see that ur case is sorta bad, go for a homeoblock with bite planes..it's cheap and itll kickstart your mewing process while putting ur head on the right place.

 

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Posted : 20/04/2020 10:24 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@noises

Did you lose weight during these two years? If not, these pictures look very promising. You certainly look better now, what ever the case may be. In regards to the topic, have you noticed any positive or negative development with your teeth(like increased inter molar width, tipping teeth, straightened teeth, etc)? Also, could you describe you mewing technique/routine?

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Posted : 08/05/2020 8:22 am
noises
Eminent Member

@Loliboly

I weigh a bit more now. I was probably around 64 kg in the first pic and around 68 now at 179 cm. I haven't measured my intermolar width in a while but I've definitely felt it expand. I've compared pics I've taken of my upper arch and it looks wider now. My bimaxillary protrusion has subsided as can be seen from that image sequence. Well, a highly simplified version of my mewing technique is this: I assume orthodox tongue posture and attempt to relax and breathe without thinking about the tongue and really focus on it for a while. I can establish a neurological connection to the way my face should feel like and I can feel how it's malformed. This will build up tension in my skull and I release the tension either by pushing up with the tongue or moving my head/spine in a way that feels intuitive. As a result I'll get a crack in my skull or spine. I've been getting them constantly all day since I started. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2020 8:37 am
Loliboly liked
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@noises
Thank you for the response. If that is the case, all I can say is congratulations! What is the key to establishing this neurological connection?

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Posted : 08/05/2020 8:48 am
noises
Eminent Member

@Loliboly

It's hard to explain. First you should find your proper head posture, I often do this by trying to execute a subconscious "throat swallow" in which the tongue behaves correctly. I personally find myself going into quite an extreme chin tuck. For there on out, and sorry if this gets a bit grotesque, try to imagine that your chin and alveolar ridge form a snout (as in something like a fox snout) that has been squished back and down. Try not to think about your tongue at all, focus on your occlusion instead. If I keep this going for a while, my face will slowly start to feel different, as if having a correctly developed face that has been deformed.

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Posted : 08/05/2020 9:07 am
Loliboly liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @noises

As a result I'll get a crack in my skull or spine. I've been getting them constantly all day since I started. 

Can you tell where these cracks you've been hearing come from (the cracks of the skull)? I'm asking because I've had these as well.

Great progress btw. Your mandible apparently came forward giving you a less-recessed look. This is even more impressive given your age and the fact that you didn't hard mew.

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Posted : 08/05/2020 9:48 am
noises
Eminent Member

@Azrael

All over the skull really... 

Also I changed my mind about sharing those particular pics, sorry about that. My progress will be properly showcased eventually.

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Posted : 08/05/2020 9:54 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

@noises

Yeah, you shouldn't post it here, you should post it in your own thread (when you want, obviously). Your after pic looks like my current situation btw. What other changes did you observe? Eyes hooding? Cheekbone projection? Do you have a straight(er) neck now?

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Posted : 08/05/2020 10:02 am
noises
Eminent Member

@Azrael

All of the above to a subtle degree at least. Check your PMs for more info

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Posted : 08/05/2020 10:20 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @thomas22

@ovosoundszn

I've looked at a lot of palate expander, before and after, photos. And I should reiterate, that's palate expanders, rather than mewing.

I think it depends on your genetic potential.

There are cases like this.

And there are cases like this.

 

How do we know mewing changed the girl and not aging? Same thing with jamo, 16 to 21 is a long road, a lot of mandible and ramus growth there.

 

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Posted : 08/05/2020 10:24 am
eternally12
Active Member

@auxiliarus

Because she was clearly growing the wrong way - meaning there was an underlying issue that needed to be addressed. In this case the underlying problem was clearly her oral posture which needed to change to allow her to achieve more forward growth during her growth period. Obviously she would have continued to grow less and less attractive with a more distorted face as the years went by had she maintained the posture she previously had. There is no gene that suddenly switches on when you turn 21 that all of a sudden gives you forward growth. As we age our bones continue to remodel in response to our environment. They’re just a lot more malleable in younger people. 

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Posted : 08/05/2020 11:36 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @eternally12

@auxiliarus

Because she was clearly growing the wrong way - meaning there was an underlying issue that needed to be addressed. In this case the underlying problem was clearly her oral posture which needed to change to allow her to achieve more forward growth during her growth period. Obviously she would have continued to grow less and less attractive with a more distorted face as the years went by had she maintained the posture she previously had. There is no gene that suddenly switches on when you turn 21 that all of a sudden gives you forward growth. As we age our bones continue to remodel in response to our environment. They’re just a lot more malleable in younger people. 

Lol, her profile barely changed, there's weight gain(neck area is fatter), different lightning(before the lighting is on other side of the face) and a different camera angle(her left eye in before is half-visible and in after it's fully visible) and there's some mandible growth and ramus growth which is to be expected with aging. There's also a better posture in after picture, look at the neck.

IMO the treatment didn't do crap for her.

 

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Posted : 08/05/2020 11:42 am
Robbie343
Trusted Member

heres one that’s pretty obvious to me that shows progress. The gonial angle reduced quite a bit (unless his beard decided to reposition itself). Anyone know this guys age? 

apologies for the screen shot 

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Posted : 08/05/2020 10:57 pm
eternally12
Active Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @eternally12

@auxiliarus

Because she was clearly growing the wrong way - meaning there was an underlying issue that needed to be addressed. In this case the underlying problem was clearly her oral posture which needed to change to allow her to achieve more forward growth during her growth period. Obviously she would have continued to grow less and less attractive with a more distorted face as the years went by had she maintained the posture she previously had. There is no gene that suddenly switches on when you turn 21 that all of a sudden gives you forward growth. As we age our bones continue to remodel in response to our environment. They’re just a lot more malleable in younger people. 

Lol, her profile barely changed, there's weight gain(neck area is fatter), different lightning(before the lighting is on other side of the face) and a different camera angle(her left eye in before is half-visible and in after it's fully visible) and there's some mandible growth and ramus growth which is to be expected with aging. There's also a better posture in after picture, look at the neck.

IMO the treatment didn't do crap for her.

 

I definitely agree there’s an improvement in posture. But I also think this has helped her grow with healthier portions in the after picture. Particularly the lip seal which has evidently reduced her overbite a fair bit. Perhaps the change is not as significant as it could have otherwise been considering she started quite late and much of her growth had already occurred. 

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Posted : 09/05/2020 12:37 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @eternally12
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @eternally12

@auxiliarus

Because she was clearly growing the wrong way - meaning there was an underlying issue that needed to be addressed. In this case the underlying problem was clearly her oral posture which needed to change to allow her to achieve more forward growth during her growth period. Obviously she would have continued to grow less and less attractive with a more distorted face as the years went by had she maintained the posture she previously had. There is no gene that suddenly switches on when you turn 21 that all of a sudden gives you forward growth. As we age our bones continue to remodel in response to our environment. They’re just a lot more malleable in younger people. 

Lol, her profile barely changed, there's weight gain(neck area is fatter), different lightning(before the lighting is on other side of the face) and a different camera angle(her left eye in before is half-visible and in after it's fully visible) and there's some mandible growth and ramus growth which is to be expected with aging. There's also a better posture in after picture, look at the neck.

IMO the treatment didn't do crap for her.

 

I definitely agree there’s an improvement in posture. But I also think this has helped her grow with healthier portions in the after picture. Particularly the lip seal which has evidently reduced her overbite a fair bit. Perhaps the change is not as significant as it could have otherwise been considering she started quite late and much of her growth had already occurred. 

One has to ask, if these professionals are professionals and have access to xrays, why not post them? Also why use different angles and lighting in before/after pictures?

Personally I distrust these photos, they seem more like advertising with trickery than focusing on the actual changes. If they just posted xray or used same variables no one would even have this argument, all changes if any would be visible. Yet it seems that on every website like this every single before/after always includes better angle/lighting.

 

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Posted : 09/05/2020 8:34 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, her profile barely changed, there's weight gain(neck area is fatter), different lightning(before the lighting is on other side of the face) and a different camera angle(her left eye in before is half-visible and in after it's fully visible) and there's some mandible growth and ramus growth which is to be expected with aging. There's also a better posture in after picture, look at the neck.

 

IMO the treatment didn't do crap for her.

Don't you think her bite had some obvious improvement? It seems plausible conclude that the treatment was very effective in that regard.

One has to ask, if these professionals are professionals and have access to xrays, why not post them? Also why use different angles and lighting in before/after pictures?

Personally I distrust these photos, they seem more like advertising with trickery than focusing on the actual changes. If they just posted xray or used same variables no one would even have this argument, all changes if any would be visible. Yet it seems that on every website like this every single before/after always includes better angle/lighting.

 

If we assume pictures can showcase improvement(which of course is debatable), this probably a better way to showcase the treatments effectiveness to the layperson, rather than with x-rays. To my eyes, the changes a to big to be purely explained away with other variables.

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Posted : 09/05/2020 9:15 am
eternally12
Active Member

The way I view it is she was clearly growing in the incorrect way before she changed her posture. I think her overbite decreased pretty significantly, however her maxilla has only grown slightly forward. I imagine most of the expansion was in the alveolar ridge as she grew, but still allowed the lower jaw to come forward properly. If she had started younger the changes would have been more profuse. 

I’m not so sure x-rays are always necessary.  She clearly grew older so there would have been bone growth displayed to some degree anyway. But had she not changed her posture I’m sure it would have been growth in the wrong direction. I think x-rays would only be necessary to elucidate bone growth in those who started treatment as adults. 

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Posted : 09/05/2020 7:02 pm