Notifications
Clear all

NOTICE:

DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION

This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

Jaws: Masseter pattern vs Temporal pattern  

Page 3 / 4
  RSS
max iller
Eminent Member

@paperbag

His eyebrows are receding too, very interesting. He has good features but without seeing his teeth/palate I can't make judgement on his personal level of growth relative to what It could be. There are more factors to circulation, too, such as head posture allowing or disallowing free blood flow to the head, muscle tightness in the neck, ability to use all related muscles properly.

There are many factors, maybe he smokes a lot of cigarettes? Maybe he's had fillers or implants, unlikely, but possible. You see what I mean.

I do agree it looks weird now that you've pointed out he has a boomer hairline, it doesn't suit his face at all. Thanks for pointing it out, I can't explain it though.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/03/2020 7:09 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

@qwerty135 So the Sphenoid CW will lead to Maxilla CCW and thus more space in the lower jaw.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/03/2020 8:36 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

I discovered that when I bite backwards, along the temporal axis and then jut my mandible, and bite forward, along the masseter axis, I hear cracks throughout the maxilla or sphenoid (hard to tell which, exactly). To be clear, I do not hear cracks when I simply bite forwards; however, when I bite forwards right after having just bitten backwards, I do hear cracks. In fact, this happens almost every time that I perform this action.

I've been a mouth-breather my whole childhood and developed an overbite early on, so when I got into mewing I thought that the best strategy would be to keep my teeth closed at rest, with my mandible moved as far to the front as possible while maintaining occlusion. Biting backwards seems counter-intuitive at face value (especially considering my overbite), but this thread and my experience with those cracking noises makes me question it - maybe I should be biting backwards after all? I'd like to try it, but I'm worried that it may lead to TMJ problems.

Any thoughts?

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/03/2020 1:06 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

I discovered that when I bite backwards, along the temporal axis and then jut my mandible, and bite forward, along the masseter axis, I hear cracks throughout the maxilla or sphenoid (hard to tell which, exactly). To be clear, I do not hear cracks when I simply bite forwards; however, when I bite forwards right after having just bitten backwards, I do hear cracks. In fact, this happens almost every time that I perform this action.

I've been a mouth-breather my whole childhood and developed an overbite early on, so when I got into mewing I thought that the best strategy would be to keep my teeth closed at rest, with my mandible moved as far to the front as possible while maintaining occlusion. Biting backwards seems counter-intuitive at face value (especially considering my overbite), but this thread and my experience with those cracking noises makes me question it - maybe I should be biting backwards after all? I'd like to try it, but I'm worried that it may lead to TMJ problems.

Any thoughts?

Biting backwards for me makes me feel like my maxilla has more room from front to back. I feel a long range of motion if I retract all the way until my wisdom teeth touch followed immediately by protracting all the way until my incisors touch. This long range of motion I feel is new because when I used to protract this much I would go into an underbite right away. 

So for me, biting backwards has seemingly lengthened my maxilla from front to back. Maybe this happens through the clockwise rotation of the neurocranium shown above. It may end up stretching the skull from front to back, making the maxilla longer. 

So I seem to now have an even range of motion for retraction as I do for protraction. If I move my mandible back, it seems to go as far (in millimeters) as it does when I move it all the way forward. Where previously pulling it back there was minimal ROM. This is why I believe the maxilla lengthened. I used to have crazy ROM going forward in a jut where now keeping my teeth in slight overbite is a true medium between full retraction and full protraction. My old midpoint between full retraction and full protraction was still an underbite for the longest time.

I hope this makes sense. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/03/2020 2:47 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

Yes, I think I understand what you're saying.

I know that you advocate for using all teeth while chewing. I'm guessing that you also believe that we should chew in all directions.

I used to think that just keeping my teeth in contact towards the front would result in some sort forward growth, but if that only actives my masseters, and Progress is right about that being a "closed system", then obviously some different approach is needed. As your experience suggests, perhaps it's forward and backward chewing put together that promotes forward expansion.

 

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/03/2020 3:12 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@eddiemoney

Yes, I think I understand what you're saying.

I know that you advocate for using all teeth while chewing. I'm guessing that you also believe that we should chew in all directions.

I used to think that just keeping my teeth in contact towards the front would result in some sort forward growth, but if that only actives my masseters, and Progress is right about that being a "closed system", then obviously some different approach is needed. As your experience suggests, perhaps it's forward and backward chewing put together that promotes forward expansion.

 

I also notice that after long bouts of temporalis chewing, if I go into masseter chewing motions of up and down, I hear lots of popping in my right jaw. I don't know if it's something suture related. It doesn't hurt at all. It feels kind of good, actually.

My posterior open bite is concentrated mostly on my right side, which gives me a canted smile. Hopefully this leads to my teeth on the right side coming down to meet the lower jaw so the posterior open bite can close and I can have my incisal midlines coincide with all my teeth in contact. Currently only my left teeth are all in contact with my midlines aligned. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/03/2020 12:49 pm
Fungodpl
New Member

I've thought for a long time that the masseter activation is the way to go. Going temporalis made me think that my front teeth would tip forward and increase the deficit in chin. 

Good thing I found this thread. Now let me share my own experience: 

-With the masseter activation pattern I noticed an improvement in my Ogee curve when in 3/4 view. (The outerline of cheekbone curve when looking diagonally at someone)  

As for my bite. It did seem to have a more U instead of V shape. Also more forward. 

My asymetries didnt feel like improving (although Im not sure) and my masseter hypertrophy did make my lower 3rd more angular in comparison. 

- Now since I've recently changed my bite for the temporalis activation these are some things I've noticed (Alrhough the time period is still too few) 

My under eye area has improved slightly, even when at the expense of my ogee curve.  I look less tired and the 'bulb' on the zygo did also decrease. 

My eyes look more symmetrical. I always haf my right eye with a more relative positive canthal tilt compared to the left. Not sure if it worsened or the left one bettered. 

I have a feeling my front view did improve somewhat even while at the expense of sharp lower 3rd. 

Another weird thing is that I can wiggle my ears with much more ease like someone else posted here.

My right wisdom tooth seems to alternare between almowt coming out to hiding under the gum. With the temporalis it seems to have hidden more.

Mewing also seems to be much easier and deeper.

I also feel more of a sensation in the back middle of my neck.

 

So that's that. Btw I have a pretty recessed maxilla with a good bite but my left side is more developed with a longer ramus too. 

Only thing Im worried about is wheter temporalis activation will soak up the blood supply of my skull and make me go bald but I dont know. 

Sorry for the long post. It's my first one and I hope to have added some value over here. Please be cauteous that the differences I noted could be correlated and not necessarily caused since Im not an expert on this. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/03/2020 12:25 pm
Meowxilla liked
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@fungodpl

Going temporalis made me think that my front teeth would tip forward and increase the deficit in chin.

Just curious: are your front teeth proclined?

Also, when you adopted the temporalis activation pattern, did you forgo chewing according to the masseter activation pattern? You've listed what you believe to be improvements resulting from temporalis activation, but you also say that these improvements came with a relapse on the positive changes that you had gained through masseter activation. Perhaps it would be better to keep these two categories of improvements at a balance, though? I think that CFD tends to arise when a person significantly prefers one activation pattern over another. What are your thoughts on this?

Only thing Im worried about is wheter temporalis activation will soak up the blood supply of my skull and make me go bald but I dont know. 

Personally, I think that the connection between CFD and hairloss is weak. There may be something to it, but it's definitely not the only factor, considering that there are men with very well-developed faces who go bald at an early age, and conversely, men with significant CFD who manage to keep most of their hair into old age. Blood flow throughout the scalp (or lack thereof) plays an important part in male pattern baldness, but I'm not sure whether improving your CFD will increase scalp blood flow to a level sufficient for mitigate baldness. I think that a more effective way of achieving this goal is microneedling.

 

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/03/2020 9:58 pm
Fungodpl
New Member

@elwynn

Wether my front teeth are proclined. No I dont think so. My bottom teeth are rather proclined I'd say. The top teeth cover the half of my bottom teeth right at the upper part where gums stop. I did have the feeling of proclined teeth at the masseter activation. Probably because of a sudden contrast to what I was used to. Seems less now.

 

My chewing pattern is currently at the temporalis pattern with a ccw grinding motion. 

 

My thoughts about preferring one side leading to CFD, well...

As mentioned earlier in the thread, having a mouth breather profile would lead me to think that the temporalis pattern (preffered by short faced, long ramus people) is what I need to adopt in order to reduce the CFD.  I do agree that balance is ultimately the best way in the long term.

My strategy regarding this is that I would first need to adopt temporalis pattern for some time (maybe 1-2 year, im 21 currently) and after fixing or at least reducing the mouth breather profile I'd focus more on masseter and bring my whole midface forward. Im still experimenting with this and Im aware I could be delusional with this reasoning (I dont know at this point really) but Im willing to see where this journey lands me. So in short, fix the contours of the face first. And then bring the whole face forward. This seems easier than doing it in reverse, since using temporalis pattern gives me more of a grip in bite and makes mewing easier. I believe this is some sort of nature's self balancing mechanism. Once achieving temporalis pattern aesthetics and function, masseter activation will be much easier. Down the line I'd focus more on both. 

As for hairloss, I also don't see a strong link between the two really. I do know that Minoxidil improves circulation and therefore helps reduce hairloss and can even regrow hair. I do believe that even a slight improvement in CFD and blood flow could help stall MPB by at least some time. Just like wearing a hat all the time makes you go bald faster. I haven't heard about microneedling but will surely look into that, thanks. 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/04/2020 7:35 am
PolHolmes
Eminent Member

Could it be beneficial to bite down onto socks with the canines and pull anteriorly? Or perhaps driving your tongue into the alveolar ridge area? Doing this I feel pressure all over the front of my face, however, I don't know if it will be beneficial or damaging...

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/04/2020 4:51 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Good example of what I believe to be skulls with heavy masseter vs temporalis use. Left shows the longer face and right the shorter face pattern.

Left also has a Class 3 anterior bite with an exaggerated curve of spee

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/04/2020 11:23 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Good example of what I believe to be skulls with heavy masseter vs temporalis use. Left shows the longer face and right the shorter face pattern.

Left also has a Class 3 anterior bite with an exaggerated curve of spee

 

 

That seems accurate.

I thought I'd share this primitive gif I created in order to illustrate a possible way to resolve the issues of an user who was suffering from open bite and antegonial notch. This is how I imagine the temporalis pattern could bring the jaws into balance in certain cases of CFD.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/04/2020 8:26 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Good example of what I believe to be skulls with heavy masseter vs temporalis use. Left shows the longer face and right the shorter face pattern.

Left also has a Class 3 anterior bite with an exaggerated curve of spee

 

 

That seems accurate.

I thought I'd share this primitive gif I created in order to illustrate a possible way to resolve the issues of an user who was suffering from open bite and antegonial notch. This is how I imagine the temporalis pattern could bring the jaws into balance in certain cases of CFD.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't heavy temporalis use lengthen the skull too?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/04/2020 3:49 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Good example of what I believe to be skulls with heavy masseter vs temporalis use. Left shows the longer face and right the shorter face pattern.

Left also has a Class 3 anterior bite with an exaggerated curve of spee

 

 

That seems accurate.

I thought I'd share this primitive gif I created in order to illustrate a possible way to resolve the issues of an user who was suffering from open bite and antegonial notch. This is how I imagine the temporalis pattern could bring the jaws into balance in certain cases of CFD.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't heavy temporalis use lengthen the skull too?

The way the cranium changes is unintentional, I drew the two pictures by hand and superimposed them. Hence 'primitive', ha. The focus was on jaw balance only.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/04/2020 4:16 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Good example of what I believe to be skulls with heavy masseter vs temporalis use. Left shows the longer face and right the shorter face pattern.

Left also has a Class 3 anterior bite with an exaggerated curve of spee

 

 

That seems accurate.

I thought I'd share this primitive gif I created in order to illustrate a possible way to resolve the issues of an user who was suffering from open bite and antegonial notch. This is how I imagine the temporalis pattern could bring the jaws into balance in certain cases of CFD.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't heavy temporalis use lengthen the skull too?

The way the cranium changes is unintentional, I drew the two pictures by hand and superimposed them. Hence 'primitive', ha. The focus was on jaw balance only.

Why do people with CFD always have their ears rotated so much backwards? 

To me it seems like people with CFD have a red pattern of growth and people with a good profile a blue pattern of growth :

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/04/2020 8:50 pm
EddieMoney and Adam liked
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Good example of what I believe to be skulls with heavy masseter vs temporalis use. Left shows the longer face and right the shorter face pattern.

Left also has a Class 3 anterior bite with an exaggerated curve of spee

 

 

That seems accurate.

I thought I'd share this primitive gif I created in order to illustrate a possible way to resolve the issues of an user who was suffering from open bite and antegonial notch. This is how I imagine the temporalis pattern could bring the jaws into balance in certain cases of CFD.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't heavy temporalis use lengthen the skull too?

The way the cranium changes is unintentional, I drew the two pictures by hand and superimposed them. Hence 'primitive', ha. The focus was on jaw balance only.

Why do people with CFD always have their ears rotated so much backwards? 

To me it seems like people with CFD have a red pattern of growth and people with a good profile a blue pattern of growth :

 

That's a good question, I have wondered about it too. With some people it looks like their splanchocranium is properly positioned, while their cranium on the other hand has collapsed backwards. It isn't always convenient to dismiss this as a matter of head posture, because their head may already be in a somewhat neutral tilt. It's kind of contradictory to how we traditionally understand craniofacial downswing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2020 3:04 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Good example of what I believe to be skulls with heavy masseter vs temporalis use. Left shows the longer face and right the shorter face pattern.

Left also has a Class 3 anterior bite with an exaggerated curve of spee

 

 

That seems accurate.

I thought I'd share this primitive gif I created in order to illustrate a possible way to resolve the issues of an user who was suffering from open bite and antegonial notch. This is how I imagine the temporalis pattern could bring the jaws into balance in certain cases of CFD.

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't heavy temporalis use lengthen the skull too?

The way the cranium changes is unintentional, I drew the two pictures by hand and superimposed them. Hence 'primitive', ha. The focus was on jaw balance only.

Why do people with CFD always have their ears rotated so much backwards? 

To me it seems like people with CFD have a red pattern of growth and people with a good profile a blue pattern of growth :

 

That's a good question, I have wondered about it too. With some people it looks like their splanchocranium is properly positioned, while their cranium on the other hand has collapsed backwards. It isn't always convenient to dismiss this as a matter of head posture, because their head may already be in a somewhat neutral tilt. It's kind of contradictory to how we traditionally understand craniofacial downswing.

If I fully make my ears straight, my eyes would literally be at their maximum range of motion and I'd still not be looking straight, but downwards. Maybe it's genetic, but maybe my temporal is rotated as hell? Another theory is that the temporal doesn't rotate, but the whole front face does and the eyes follow it. So instead of assuming the eyes remain static, maybe changes to the front face move the eyes as well with them, eventually you might have a head tilt even while looking straight ahead with your eyes.

 

Here's the only comparison of bad CF-growth vs good CF-growth I could find, notice how the eyes sockets seem rotated as well, wouldn't the eyes be rotated as well then?

If so then what another user on this forum told me is ridicilous, If I have CFD there'd be no way for me to not tilt my head without straining my eyes.

 

It doesn't even look like the ramus is deficient in length in the CFD case, it's literally rotated inwards, I have the same thing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/05/2020 2:39 pm
Lawnmewer
Active Member

Sorry about my previous post, I reread the thread and completely missed the part that answered my question.

 

I deleted it, but I will link this video again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Ybj2bTeR4&feature=youtu.be&t=103

In this video you can see that the gorilla is chewing by grinding the food by moving his mandible from side to side, like you described. When you look at his forehead you can very clearly see his enormous temporalis muscles doing quite a lot of work. The masseters aren't as noticeable it seems. However, it's obviously completely unfair to compare gorilla's to humans, especially in this case, as their forehead literally consists of muscle. You can see this when looking at their skulls.

But there might be something to take away from this. Gorillas do have great forward growth 🙂

 

EDIT: I want to add that while the temporalis does have fibers pulling backwards, when my teeth make gentle contact I can only feel the front of the temporalis contract when I run my finger along it. I can only feel the rest contract when I clench or bite. So it would make sense that that might cause forward growth.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 6:40 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @lawnmewer

Sorry about my previous post, I reread the thread and completely missed the part that answered my question.

 

I deleted it, but I will link this video again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Ybj2bTeR4&feature=youtu.be&t=103

In this video you can see that the gorilla is chewing by grinding the food by moving his mandible from side to side, like you described. When you look at his forehead you can very clearly see his enormous temporalis muscles doing quite a lot of work. The masseters aren't as noticeable it seems. However, it's obviously completely unfair to compare gorilla's to humans, especially in this case, as their forehead literally consists of muscle. You can see this when looking at their skulls.

But there might be something to take away from this. Gorillas do have great forward growth 🙂

 

EDIT: I want to add that while the temporalis does have fibers pulling backwards, when my teeth make gentle contact I can only feel the front of the temporalis contract when I run my finger along it. I can only feel the rest contract when I clench or bite. So it would make sense that that might cause forward growth.

Gorilla skull looks like heavy masseter usage though. Look at how long the maxilla is vertically. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2020 2:40 am
Lawnmewer
Active Member

@eddiemoney

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Gorilla skull looks like heavy masseter usage though. Look at how long the maxilla is vertically. 

I don't know, he does have very long ramus, and is obviously very forward grown. But it's harder to say because there have been no (known) cases of Gorillas having CFD to use as a reference.

With the image I wanted to show the sagittal crest, which is completely filled up with the temporalis muscle, and how large that seems to make the muscle in comparison to his head and the masseters. A google search tells me that this is because of the vegetation that they eat, and how they need to grind their food by moving their jaw laterally. This can also be seen in the video I linked.

@progress This supports what you said, about grinding causing temporalis activation, and so does this study:

The higher mandibular rami of other hominids may reduce effectiveness of the temporalis when rotating the mandible about the transverse axis. However, during sustained chewing, which involves lateral or anteroposterior mandibular translation, the role of the temporalis is secondary to those of the masseteric and pterygoid musculature. A TMJ positioned further above the occlusal plane may provide greater area for muscle attachment for masseteric and pterygoid musculature, as well as a more even spread of occlusal forces, and there is strong correlation between ramus height and the degree of translation in anthropoid primates.

So like you said, just chewing is probably not enough to affect growth. So it could either be teeth in contact, activating the temporalis at all times, but I also have another theory:

So recently I was looking up how to repair the fallen arch in my foot. Every article or video I looked at said the same thing: because of wearing shoes, your foot muscles aren't used as much. This causes them to weaken, and lengthen. What I had to do to fix it was train a certain muscle, strengthen it and the muscle would shorten. This would pull the bones together, shortening the entire foot, and increase the height of the arch.

So what if the temporalis muscle works in a similar way? By exercising it, it would strengthen, shorten and pull on the bone, and create the effect described in the OP.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2020 4:55 am
Basim
Eminent Member

I think this explains how forward head posture can make a big difference on your facial structure .

I found this on the claimingpower site: http://claimingpower.com/did-we-overlook-head-posture/#more-8925 and

http://claimingpower.com/forward-head-posture/#more-11292

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/05/2020 2:44 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

Yes it is. When I get correct posture (thorasic and neck) i can't breath. No wonder that i went thru vicious cycle of worsening posture and craniofacial developement to save my breath. Interesting thing is, there are some people with bad posture, that still look good - but i would suspect that it is not sustainable.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/05/2020 4:30 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @lawnmewer

@eddiemoney

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Gorilla skull looks like heavy masseter usage though. Look at how long the maxilla is vertically. 

I don't know, he does have very long ramus, and is obviously very forward grown. But it's harder to say because there have been no (known) cases of Gorillas having CFD to use as a reference.

With the image I wanted to show the sagittal crest, which is completely filled up with the temporalis muscle, and how large that seems to make the muscle in comparison to his head and the masseters. A google search tells me that this is because of the vegetation that they eat, and how they need to grind their food by moving their jaw laterally. This can also be seen in the video I linked.

@progress This supports what you said, about grinding causing temporalis activation, and so does this study:

The higher mandibular rami of other hominids may reduce effectiveness of the temporalis when rotating the mandible about the transverse axis. However, during sustained chewing, which involves lateral or anteroposterior mandibular translation, the role of the temporalis is secondary to those of the masseteric and pterygoid musculature. A TMJ positioned further above the occlusal plane may provide greater area for muscle attachment for masseteric and pterygoid musculature, as well as a more even spread of occlusal forces, and there is strong correlation between ramus height and the degree of translation in anthropoid primates.

So like you said, just chewing is probably not enough to affect growth. So it could either be teeth in contact, activating the temporalis at all times, but I also have another theory:

So recently I was looking up how to repair the fallen arch in my foot. Every article or video I looked at said the same thing: because of wearing shoes, your foot muscles aren't used as much. This causes them to weaken, and lengthen. What I had to do to fix it was train a certain muscle, strengthen it and the muscle would shorten. This would pull the bones together, shortening the entire foot, and increase the height of the arch.

So what if the temporalis muscle works in a similar way? By exercising it, it would strengthen, shorten and pull on the bone, and create the effect described in the OP.

There's already evidence that temporalis shortens the face and widens zygos considerably. All kinds of pressure cause bone resorption.

Just look at bruxism cases, all the evidence you need, even bruxism developed in adults will show strong effects. No one knows exactly how fast facial bones remodel, I know that the palate soft tissue has some of the fastest protein synthesis in the body and heals extremely fast, wouldn't it make sense that the bones around it should also have fast metabolism?

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/05/2020 6:17 am
Insomniac
New Member

I found this video that might be helpful for this discussion since Henry Cavil has good facial structure.

https://youtu.be/MxZ5VQVHMoc?t=147

To me it looks like he uses temporalis chewing but it's hard to tell, maybe someone else could tell me what they think?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/05/2020 7:30 am
Basim
Eminent Member

@adam I agree on that statement. However with proper posture on the whole body and cranium. The musculature will balance out evenly and thus everything will haramonize and the body will recognize as its natural state.

In my opinion, the best-looking people on average are the ones with the most balanced and harmonious faces and most of them you will see will have very good posture.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/05/2020 2:18 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @insomniac

I found this video that might be helpful for this discussion since Henry Cavil has good facial structure.

https://youtu.be/MxZ5VQVHMoc?t=147

To me it looks like he uses temporalis chewing but it's hard to tell, maybe someone else could tell me what they think?

He's using both temporalis and masseter, probably others as well. He barely has any fat in his face, thick masseters don't bloat him :).

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/05/2020 5:15 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Good balance of masseter to temporalis is ideal. Too long or short of a face are neither good outcomes. This is why you need a good of width to balance your facial length. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/05/2020 2:55 am
auxiliary liked
Basim
Eminent Member

Personally I feel when the muscularature of the whole face is rested and balanced. The tongue all needs to do is to push the maxilla forwards and upwards gradually and give the facial upswing that Mike Mew talks about.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 3:07 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

Problem is that most people with CFD have imbalances everywhere and causes different types of CFD of different face patterns that @Elwynn talks about. The tongue can't really function properly and reverse the damage that has been done to the face with out the assistance of fixing the balance and support of muscles that allows the tongue to fully utilize its function.

For me, I have a recessed maxilla and chin with a class 2 malocclusion and narrrow palate. Despite me mewing and chewing for 2 months. I do seen changes that my face is more symmetrical, my ramus slight lengthen, and my cheekbones looking a bit wider. However foward growth of the maxilla seems unlikely with the tongue alone. It seems most celebs with good facial growth tend to have strong muscles. That's my 2 cents

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 3:17 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @qwerty135

@Progress Do you think chewing (dynamic, intermittent load) vs gentle clenching (static, intermittent load) makes a difference in how the bone reacts to this activation of the temporalii and this force on the maxilla along the temporal axis? I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Wolff's Law, but I assume that a dynamic load at 1-2 Hz would induce a different response than a static load.

I don't know to be honest. Hypothetically, even if static loading was more effective than chewing, chewing does increase your unconscious capability for static loading by improving muscle tone. It does seem that the only thing some achieve with chewing is excessive muscular hypertrophy with little changes in bone. I'm inclined to think that static forces, even when generated by weak musculature, would be more powerful than strong intermittent forces, though I have no real reasoning to back this up with. It just makes more intuitive sense that the skull is gently guided to the right direction rather than abruptly forced. 

This isn't true at all, I don't know how chewing works, all I know is it does for sure change your bone structure, it makes your face way shorter.

Before I chewed I had fWHR 1.65, after I chewed I got a dummy thick but sexy fWHR of 1.85, I got TMJ issues and stopped chewing for 3 months to now and my fWHR is 1.75

My zygos seem even wider right now than they were, however my nose is way longer, I also noticed in my pictures that my nose right now is smaller horizontally but longer vertically, I thought it had something to do with camera, but it's actually changes from chewing.

I also stopped chewing cause my side profile was completely messed up, I had even worse turkey neck than right now, even though it seemed like my mandible rotated CCW.

I don't think there's much camera distortion in these pictures, eyes have the same vertical length and horizontal width in pixels. In the newer pictures distance between eye-zygo is actually even bigger, confirming that my zygos are actually bigger in the newer picture. My whole face is just longer because I stopped chewing.

 

 

So no, chewing isn't just masseter hypertrophy, I swear to god just a few weeks of chewing makes my face way shorter and gives me TMJ/headaches eventually. I don't know why, even though mandible is CCW rotated, my neck looks like a turkey from chewing.

 

Chewing gives the fastest change I've ever seen in bone, if only someone here figured out EXACTLY how to chew for perfect facial growth that'd be damn great.

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 4:27 pm
PaperBag liked
Progress
Member Moderator

@auxiliarus Emphasis on some, if you are replying to this sentence: "It does seem that the only thing some achieve with chewing is excessive muscular hypertrophy with little changes in bone." I'm not disputing that chewing can result in skeletal change.

 

Your photo from January is flipped, right? I superimposed them, it does look like your zygomatic area may have changed.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 4:48 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

@auxiliarus Emphasis on some, if you are replying to this sentence: "It does seem that the only thing some achieve with chewing is excessive muscular hypertrophy with little changes in bone." I'm not disputing that chewing can result in skeletal change.

 

Your photo from January is flipped, right? I superimposed them, it does look like your zygomatic area may have changed.

 

Sorry, I misread, I'm kinda dyslexic, have same thing happen on my exams.

Yep, the pictures are mirrored, one of them is taken in a mirror, another isn't. Also the after picture is taken from a slightly closer distance.

By the way my hair grew a lot as well, it's hiding the shape of my head a bit.

The changes in the zygos are mostly changes to it's position. The angle from widest point of zygo to my eye was 31 degrees in before picture(during chewing), however after stopping chewing for 3 months the angle became 26 degrees. Also in the before picture the widest point of the zygos is closer to the middle of my ear, in the after picture the widest point of the zygos is closer to the upper ear, so the widest points of my zygos have moved upwards from not chewing for 3 months. It's not that the actual zygos moved upwards, it's actually the bone between the zygos and the temporal, this bone is very fragile and very plastic, it's angle changes fast. So my theory is that my actual zygo bone became lower after I stopped chewing, this caused the back of the zygo/temporalis(the widest point) to go upwards, basically there was a clockwise rotation of the zygos without chewing.

 

This caused a clockwise rotation of the maxilla, explaining the lengthening of the face, lowering of the fWHR and the shortening of the frontal prominence of the mandible.

Now personally I think a higher fWHR looked better on me, and the slightly better mandible prominence looked better as well, but why stop chewing then? Because my jawline slowly started looking like this :

 

The way I see it, CCW rotation of the maxilla is undesirable for aesthetics, CW rotation is preferred, while at the same time a CCW rotation of the lower maxilla should happen. Basically the bone shape needs to change, not the angle of the whole bone.

The maxilla or the zygo didn't change from the actual force of the chewing, instead the temporalis muscle being hypertrophied pushed the zygo forwards, rotated it CCW and caused CCW rotation of the maxilla, this causes the widest point of the zygos to become lower in height, giving the appearance of "low cheekbones".

This also explains the dorsaml hump, CCW rotation of maxilla simply makes the nasal bone too prominent, you want the palate to move upwards without the maxilla rotating CCW, but with the shape of the lower maxilla changing fully.

 

Unfortunately the only muscle capable of pushing the lower maxilla out while keeping the maxilla either unrotated or even rotating it clock-wise is the masseter. The superficial head of the masseter in theory should pull your nasal bone backwards, while pushing your palate forwards. People with CFD usually have a very prominent nasal bone, I think from CCW maxilla rotation.

 

Jonh Mew was probably right all along, the way you tense the superficial masseters is molars together... Light tension over time, changes shape of all bones, high tension hypertrophies them though and makes them more resistance to change.

EDIT : By the way my chewing patterns was predominantly deep masseter and temporalis instead of superficial masseters like I'm suggesting. Maybe it's time to keep molars together and see what happens, bloated face look will suck though, all that soft tissue compressing on itself...

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 8:59 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member

Benefits of chewing have a lot to do with your starting point. If you are class 2 with an overbite and chewing causes TMJ you’re likely going backwards. Look at people who need total joint replacement. They either have a rare joint disease or they’ve suffered from TMJ and joint clicking for a long time which degrades the joint and pulls the jaw back. 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 9:05 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

@auxiliarus Emphasis on some, if you are replying to this sentence: "It does seem that the only thing some achieve with chewing is excessive muscular hypertrophy with little changes in bone." I'm not disputing that chewing can result in skeletal change.

 

Your photo from January is flipped, right? I superimposed them, it does look like your zygomatic area may have changed.

 

Never-mind, it was camera distortion after all. I retook the picture with the same lens, distance and position, through a mirror and the fwHR was 1,88. This means chewing leads to a long-lasting fWHR increase.

For reference before chewing I have an ID photo and another picture I took from the mirror both showing fWHR 1,65.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2020 6:48 am
Authority
Active Member

@auxiliary 

Seems incredible you draw conclusions from two such different pictures man. I personally have taken hundreths of photos since I've started mewing and believe me that from one photo to another differences may seem huge for one reasons or another.

I recomend you to take photos more often so that you realise how much they can vary from one day to another and how complicated it is to actually spot any changes. People who take lots of photos will know what I'm saying. How one day you might think there is noticeable changes and the next day you just take different photos and realise there was actually no changes. 

With this being said, I personally find it hard to believe the changes you claim from just a couple of months of chewing since in my case, after pretty much a whole year of hard chewing + clenching I've had practically 0 changes (even though comparing some photos I seem different persons).

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2020 3:04 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @authority

@auxiliary 

Seems incredible you draw conclusions from two such different pictures man. I personally have taken hundreths of photos since I've started mewing and believe me that from one photo to another differences may seem huge for one reasons or another.

I recomend you to take photos more often so that you realise how much they can vary from one day to another and how complicated it is to actually spot any changes. People who take lots of photos will know what I'm saying. How one day you might think there is noticeable changes and the next day you just take different photos and realise there was actually no changes. 

With this being said, I personally find it hard to believe the changes you claim from just a couple of months of chewing since in my case, after pretty much a whole year of hard chewing + clenching I've had practically 0 changes (even though comparing some photos I seem different persons).

 

1) I already said that because I used different lenses the camera distortion played a role between the pictures.

2) My fWHR went from 1,65 to 1,88+ over 2 years from chewing. Also why would you clench? That's bad for your teeth. And there's a specific way to force zygos to grow with chewing, not any chewing. If you want wider zygos, just chin-tuck and open-mouth chew with your temporalis, though this has huge potential for TMJ and it's aesthetics are limited.

You're better off just focusing on mewing to decrease facial height rather than try to increase facial width. You don't want chipmunk zygos anyways.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/05/2020 6:58 pm
lil nut
Eminent Member

@qwerty135 I'm thinking the soreness that you get is from the lateral pterygoids tiring out from all the jutting.  

 

Can you explain how the digastic would get activated from chewing like that...   that muscle is what I'm lacking...

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/05/2020 3:00 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @lil-nut

@qwerty135 I'm thinking the soreness that you get is from the lateral pterygoids tiring out from all the jutting.  

 

Can you explain how the digastic would get activated from chewing like that...   that muscle is what I'm lacking...

The digastric is involved in opening the mouth, it's one of the suprahyoids responsible for opening the mouth.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/05/2020 5:47 pm
Lawnmewer
Active Member

Personally, while I've noticed increased forward growth and horizontal growth in my palate, I haven't noticed a lot of change in the zygomatic area. However, I've also noticed that I mainly use my masseters when chewing. This is where I'm at right now:

(I also just noticed that with the frontal photo the camera is a little to the left.)

I'll see what kind of effects engaging the temporalis muscle has, so I'll probably post an update. By the way, my understanding is that that is done by chewing in more of a grinding motion rather than a crushing motion. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/05/2020 7:55 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

Is it possible to make your forehead wider by temporalis hypertrophy? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/05/2020 6:56 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

What I have noticed since reading this thread . Is that the Temporalis provides width to the upper portion of the skull, reduces facial height, leverage for saggital growth. While the Massesters provides width to the jaws, lengthens the lower third as Auxillary says, and leverage for recession.

For most people who have open bites like I do and just chew their back teeth or have a recessed face. IMO going to Temporalis chewing will even the bite a lot and provide a force for the maxilla and soft tissue to upswing. While increasing facial width( primarily cheekbones), while guiding the maxilla to be up and other muscles to be down to create balance facial thirds.

Also I believe that Inter cannie width is better info to see if someone palates wide or not. And that I believe when someone reaches a high IMW; they will eventually overtime expand the anterior of the maxilla and create the wide balance arch/smile that we all deem very attractive.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/06/2020 1:55 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @basim

What I have noticed since reading this thread . Is that the Temporalis provides width to the upper portion of the skull, reduces facial height, leverage for saggital growth. While the Massesters provides width to the jaws, lengthens the lower third as Auxillary says, and leverage for recession.

For most people who have open bites like I do and just chew their back teeth or have a recessed face. IMO going to Temporalis chewing will even the bite a lot and provide a force for the maxilla and soft tissue to upswing. While increasing facial width( primarily cheekbones), while guiding the maxilla to be up and other muscles to be down to create balance facial thirds.

Also I believe that Inter cannie width is better info to see if someone palates wide or not. And that I believe wNever hen someone reaches a high IMW; they will eventually overtime expand the anterior of the maxilla and create the wide balance arch/smile that we all deem very attractive.

You're only talking about the pros of both, why don't you also say the cons? Masseters shorten mid-face too much. Temporalis pulls the palate backwards too much. Both temporalis and masseter causes maxilla clockwise rotation which is undesirable.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/06/2020 8:24 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @basim

What I have noticed since reading this thread . Is that the Temporalis provides width to the upper portion of the skull, reduces facial height, leverage for saggital growth. While the Massesters provides width to the jaws, lengthens the lower third as Auxillary says, and leverage for recession.

For most people who have open bites like I do and just chew their back teeth or have a recessed face. IMO going to Temporalis chewing will even the bite a lot and provide a force for the maxilla and soft tissue to upswing. While increasing facial width( primarily cheekbones), while guiding the maxilla to be up and other muscles to be down to create balance facial thirds.

Also I believe that Inter cannie width is better info to see if someone palates wide or not. And that I believe wNever hen someone reaches a high IMW; they will eventually overtime expand the anterior of the maxilla and create the wide balance arch/smile that we all deem very attractive.

You're only talking about the pros of both, why don't you also say the cons? Masseters shorten mid-face too much. Temporalis pulls the palate backwards too much. Both temporalis and masseter causes maxilla clockwise rotation which is undesirable.

Where did you get this that they both cause CW rotation? Also, CW rotation is favorable for Class 3 cases

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/06/2020 2:44 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @basim

What I have noticed since reading this thread . Is that the Temporalis provides width to the upper portion of the skull, reduces facial height, leverage for saggital growth. While the Massesters provides width to the jaws, lengthens the lower third as Auxillary says, and leverage for recession.

For most people who have open bites like I do and just chew their back teeth or have a recessed face. IMO going to Temporalis chewing will even the bite a lot and provide a force for the maxilla and soft tissue to upswing. While increasing facial width( primarily cheekbones), while guiding the maxilla to be up and other muscles to be down to create balance facial thirds.

Also I believe that Inter cannie width is better info to see if someone palates wide or not. And that I believe wNever hen someone reaches a high IMW; they will eventually overtime expand the anterior of the maxilla and create the wide balance arch/smile that we all deem very attractive.

You're only talking about the pros of both, why don't you also say the cons? Masseters shorten mid-face too much. Temporalis pulls the palate backwards too much. Both temporalis and masseter causes maxilla clockwise rotation which is undesirable.

Where did you get this that they both cause CW rotation? Also, CW rotation is favorable for Class 3 cases

 

There's a few arguments to make for that :

1) I've seen changes from chewing with masseter vs temporalis that both rotate my maxilla CW, which is only anecdotal.

2) Since most chewing is done on the back of the teeth, it seems logical that the back of the teeth will be pushed upwards vertically.

3) Studies show correlations between masseter and temporalis CSA and maxilla angle in humans.

4) Bruxism patients seem to always have their upper maxilla very forward-set relative to their eyes. IMO if the upper maxilla is backward-set then you have that deep-eye look that most aesthetic people have.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/06/2020 8:21 am
Basim
Eminent Member

Well I’m class 2 with a recessed chin and short ramus and I’m trying to upswing my mid face and mandible forward since that’s my goal of mewing and posture work is to reduce facial height to be balance my facial thirds and forward growth to have better breathing since I used to think I was breathing my nose by sealing my lips with mentalis muscle and not the tongue and or is muscles. Which gave my recessed chin look and that I have been mouth breathing my entire life. Although I guess my genetics,hormones, and eye area saved my looks somewhat even though I’m overweight.

Since I have an overbite and mostly chew with my back teeth as a class 2. What type of chewing should I do to reduce facial height and increase projection?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/06/2020 8:51 am
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @maxiller

I have been thinking about this thread for a while now and I have some Ideas I'd like the share:

To oversimplify:

The Temporalis pattern is responsible for a wide and short face
The Masseter pattern for a narrow and long face
The tongue pattern is essential for a functionally wide and long palate fitting the tongue and all teeth, The skull to a degree forms around the tongue while the buccinators and lips hold occlusion of the teeth. However this doesn't account for the palates position forward/backward on the skull.

Now

Place your hands on the sides of your head as if you were blocking your ears but a little forward, so that the tips of your fingers touch the temporalis muscle and the bottom of your palms rest on the masseters. Now push your tongue upward and those muscles will activate in different ratios depending on your mandible position. This is a practical example but you will notice that backward pulling is temporalis dominant while jutting forward is masseter dominant.

Since bad habits with the tongue during childhood got us here in the first place, it has set a presedent for incorrect use of the masticory muscles Which we have brought into years of our development. We need to stop the spiral that we have set for ourselves.

Muscle wins over bone, and bone will adjust around muscle use.

Fix your tongue, fix your jaw placement, and everything will slowly fall into place. This is much easier said than done however, as the teeth have occluded to your habits, and now have to reocclude into a healthy muscle pattern. via tongue and chewing forces.

This all falls under the category of muscular posture, which translates into movement. Good movement is essential for functioning in a world where you and all around you is material. Even the non-material world of conciousness is affected by the material reality of its existence inside a braincase.

We need to come up with some practical methods now for curing different forms of CFD.

Chewing posture is ofcourse of paramount importance, it will be beneficial to overcompensate in the opposite direction of temporalis/masseter ratio to increase the rate of skull adjustment. Meaning if you are masseter dominant then you want to bite backwards, and vice versa for temporal skulls.

It makes sense that if one bites with their mandible jutted forward, they are activating the masseter pattern, It seems true that the forward position on the bottom jaw is where the top jaw would have to meet for that pattern of mastication to occur naturally. However, its impossible to bite with correct force through your teeth and into your skull from these artifical positions. Our CFD anatomies simply arent designed for correct mandible placement and it's bite forces.

But, you can use your tongue as the force that engages the muscles of mastication, this will also aid in the process of the palate modeling around the mouth, which is the basis of mewing, however mewing isn't nearly the whole picture here.

We can't bite, or chew properly, only improperly. Chewing comfortably in our anatomy will only set the bad habits harder, we need to chew as if we had a different skull, atleast, push the mandible forward as if the maxilla were set forward with it, or set the mandible back for long faced individuals. and now bite, or simulate a bite with the tongue pushing against the forces of mastication.

If the muscles activate as if the jaw is in correct alignment, then it will apply forces of correct alignment. Luckily, these forces are controlled by the jaw, and one can move the jaw freely within its ROM.

Now, chewing exercises. Mastic gum, towels, foods, whatever. Now you need to chew in your new uncomfortable, unnatural, but correct jaw position. I don't think the tongue itself will be purely sufficient to reshape the skull at any rate that matters, Since chewing applies much more force, and bone adjusts to force.

Overcompensating the mandible may be useful to get the process started faster however if you stick with it into real progress you will most likely just end up with the opposite CFD pattern than the one your started with, whats important is balance once you reach the correct anatomic skull form that fits your tongue and soft tissue format.

I wouldn't worry too much about occlusion as your tongue and lips/cheeks keep tipping in check provided you have correct enough mouth posture.

I don't know how long change will take nor do I know that this works

HOWEVER

I will given time, as I am experimenting with this hypothesis and correcting my body posture according to similar philosophies that @Progress follows, ie. Building an understanding and connection with the body and it's movement through focused and mindful exercise, stretching and active contorting. Hopefully this combined yields something of worth.

I hope at least that this post gives your mind something to play with

So Maxiller for me as a class 2 malocclusion with weak temporalis and masseter muscles and with a cross bite on my left side. What type of chewing should I do to bring balance in my occlusion and facial thirds? And should I focus more on tongue posture than chewing as a beginner mewing along with postural work?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/06/2020 12:55 pm
noises
Eminent Member

I found this site that features depictions of skeletal changes related to bruxism which caught my eye. Here's compression of the masseter axis and consequent antegonial notching. 

Apparently temporalis contraction can lead to elongation of the coronoid process.

I guess this underlines the importance of relying on resting muscle tone rather than active contraction to keep the jaws closed because too much force can lead the remodeling process to take adverse shortcuts to accommodate it.

To me it seems like the purpose of the latter animation was to isolate the effect on coronoid process but I doubt it would occur like that with the rest of the mandible unaffected. I suspect that some upward retraction of the jaws would also occur like I suspected earlier in the thread.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/07/2020 10:02 am
Lawnmewer
Active Member

 

Posted by: @noises

I guess this underlines the importance of relying on resting muscle tone rather than active contraction to keep the jaws closed because too much force can lead the remodeling process to take adverse shortcuts to accommodate it.

 

But how exactly does a muscle apply enough force to remodel bone without active contraction? And how is that force affected by development/hypertrophy of the muscle?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/07/2020 7:06 am
noises
Eminent Member

@lawnmewer

Exercising the muscles will increase resting muscle tone which is passive contraction. It might be too hyperbolic to condemn active contraction altogether since it can be done very moderately but remodeling should occur so long as the force is consistent and the optimal intended muscle tone of the temporalii is designed to hold the skull together. I’ve done hard chewing and experimented with trying to relax into proper posture instead of forcing it and with certain adjustments to posture and breathing I can induce corrective tension in the skull without actively contracting muscles. It seems like a good strategy to me. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/07/2020 6:46 pm
Lawnmewer
Active Member

@noises

Interesting, I do wonder though how exactly this works when masseter development causes ramus lengthening. If it's true (like someone said in this thread I believe) that the dominant chewing side usually possesses a larger ramus, and the other side more cheekbone projection due to temporalis hypertrophy increasing the zygomatic arch I can't see how the temporalis then can affect the ramus on the other side.

I'm probably going to make a post on this topic in the future, but when looking at mammals there is a very clear relation between ramus length and masseter size 

dark gray: temporalisgray: masseter, white: pterygoideus

So the question is, is this correlation or causation? It probably isn't due to passive contraction, as that would only shorten/compress the ramus like in the gif. The masseters aren't postural muscles either, I believe? I think that the process of the ramus increasing in size is different from mewing as mewing is repositioning the bones, and when the ramus grows it might not be due to any pulling/pushing forces. 

It's a well known phenomenon that when you grow a muscle the bones it's attached to grow in density. 

The first image of the forearm bones a tennis player with clearly demonstrates how big of a difference muscle usage can have on the bones they're attached to. The increased density of the dominant arm thickens the bones. 

I think this is how the masseter ramus relationship works. While there are a lot of cases where the masseter grows but the ramus doesn't, this could either be due to lack of nutrients/oxygen for bone growth, or because the masseters grow too much due to high intensity usage like chewing falim gum which I think shouldn't be condoned. I don't think it's as natural or common as Mike says it is when he talks about our ancestors. If we do look at our ancestors, the hominid with by far the widest zygomatic and dental arch and biggest rami is the Paranthropus boisei, which had the lowest quality diet of all hominids. This means copious amounts of grass and sedges, which were very soft but required a lot of grinding down. This is the result:

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/07/2020 8:11 am
noises
Eminent Member

@lawnmewer

Well yeah, masseter hypertrophy seems to affect ramus length by increasing bone mass in the gonion. I found this picture:

What we’re seeing here looks like skeletal consequences of masseter hypertrophy and atrophy. Notice how the inner length and angle of the ramus don’t seem to change though, I believe those attributes are determined by temporalis activity. So the masseter effect isn’t necessarily that relevant, just kind of a peripheral thing. When it comes to passive contraction, there are differences between masseters and temporalii. Enhanced muscle tone of the masseters may simply mean that the muscles are more rigid and shorter at rest but stationary. The temporalii however will be malrotated in relation to the mandible and thus inflict an active rotational effect on the skull at rest. Furthermore there’s a video by Mike Mew in which he proposes tongue posture as a cure for bruxism because it acts as an antagonistic force to the jaw closing muscles and that would cancel out the compressing effect of the masseter. 

Interestingly, I think I used to chew on my right side and my right ramus is considerably shorter. I thought this thread explained it, because it really looks as if the masseter and temporalis on the right side have been tighter and compressing that side of my face like this:


Interesting if the ramus being longer on the dominant side is considered to be the standard.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/07/2020 5:22 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

Either way,Chewing by itself works out both the masseter and Temporalis muscle at the same time anyway. However what I have realized from Mike Mew videos and this thread. It seems to suggest to close the jaws properly and get increase in lip seal, jaw width, etc with no side effects is to increase muscle tone.

By increasing muscle tone, bones will adapt to the stress placed upon and remodeling occurring. I think this explain why people don’t get much change in their gonial angle while doing masseter    hypertrophy. 

Also the animals between the masseter dominated(European Bison) and the Temporalis dominated(Red Panda). Clear observations to be made that the Bison has a longer ramus, midface, and more chin projection. While the Panda has a wider face, more cheekbone projection, and interestingly has a larger skull proportionally to their body.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/07/2020 9:22 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

This observation proves that chewing can reshape your whole skull of the outer U. However I have theory because I am a little bit recesssed on my maxilla, I have always been chewing gum and meat most of my life. However I don’t have very strong masseter or temporalis muscle. I do have a short midface but not wide and balanced as I thought. I believe that having a recessed jaw and maxilla produces less bite force than a person with a forward maxilla. As the pterygoid muscle(lateral and medial) is inhibited due to the jaw being swung down and back. And the condyles not hinged forward prevents long chewing sessions and tmj problems

This article explains the importance of the pterygoid muscles: https://mskneurology.com/true-cause-solution-temporomandibular-dysfunction-tmd/

I think for anyone who is class 2 or recessed should jut their jaw forward to active the pterygoid muscle and increase the effectiveness of chewing( do not clench it will cause tmj or jaw joint problems)

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/07/2020 12:38 pm
straightforward
New Member

Might be a bit off-topic but I think I'm experiencing the effects of "overactive" masseters as OP mentions them. When I'm mewing, I always feel tension on my masseters (I keep my teeth slightly apart) and how their tensing up slightly. Doing this for longer periods seems to pull my cheekbones back a bit and maybe down because my under eye support worsens. I'm not trying to hard mew, I just swallow several times until there's a "harder suction" and I'm also actively pressing a tiny bit. Mouth breathing/ having a bigger distance in between teeth while mewing undoes those effects. I'm I mewing wrong?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/07/2020 2:26 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

@straightforward you probably have an imbalance of your masseter to temporalis muscle ratio. Overused masseter does lead to a longer face and your cheekbones will go down if you don’t have the balance to match with the temporalis. Try Temporalis chewing and soft mewing is better than hard mew long term. Just hard mew certain times during the day it will strengthen your tongue gradually.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/07/2020 3:58 pm
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @violetgrey6

This is interesting because I actually disagree completely and think masseter activation is ideal for forward facial growth. I have a recessed maxilla where my bottom front teeth rest right behind my top front teeth and my molars don't quite touch and when I chew it activates probably 70% temporal muscle and 30% masseter muscle.

I just found this progress story from the Orthotropic Reddit page and the OP said changing to a masseter pattern from a temporal pattern (with the aid of Chisell) was key in his forward growth. It also makes sense if you look at the direction of muscle action as the lower jaw is coming up and moving in the direction we want the maxilla to go. Over time it would make sense that chewing in a masseter pattern would encourage bone growth upward and forward.

I am going to try to get to 60% masseter 40% temporal activation while chewing and I suspect it will be very beneficial in moving the maxilla upward and forward. Right now with how my teeth rest I can't really isolate the masseter while chewing gum or food but I figure trying Chisell while chewing in a slight underbite will allow me to. Thoughts?

That wouldn’t make sense that the Masseters would cause forward growth instead of temporalis. The Masseters are in the jaw in a closed position with no leverage to maxilla or mandible. It’s pushes downward to mandible and rotates the mandible upwards with no support not the maxilla. Where Temporalis are postural muscles and have direct connections to the maxilla. By using your front teeth more often through the temporal vector I feel my lip seal is stronger after a workout with a towel and my jaw automatically slides more forward while having pressure across my midface. Plus if you have a overbite/class 2, your front teeth are tipped forward and no stability in the alveolar ridge and pressure comes from the Masseters muscles . Which leads to back teeth touching,front teeth open and a weaker lip seal. Lastly if you are recessed your Masseters are limited because the jaw is set back and the pytergoid muscles are not active anymore and creates less bite force. That weakens your ability to grow the Masseters at all. I do agree that chewing with a slight underbite works because you are actively using the pytergoid muscles and the Masseters more effectively. But don’t overlook the importance of the temporalis. There should be a balance between the 2. And creating a perfect straight occlusion from molar to incisiors.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/08/2020 11:37 am
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@lawnmewer

I think you can intepret it this way. Think of bone as structure which has to resist stress and muscle as tissue which does stressing.

Now with very very strong masseters bone needs to be biggeer in order to resist force they apply. Makes sense?

Cheekbones get weider cause you are stressing over them with temporal muscle. Bones respond to muscles. Sometimes they get bigger (temporalis case) sometimes they get smaller due to too much preassure on them (masseteer case).

I think some animals use masseters primarily and thus need strong bones in order so that they don't colapse under preassure of muscle. Stronger muscles require bigger bones to resist them. When you overuse muscle your bones shorten due to too much preassure exerted on them.

If those animals wanted biger muscles they would need bigger bones to support them in order to stay in balanced. If you do it too much disbalance causes too much bone loss.

In my opinion fix for CFD is dependent on your muscle imbalance. Fix overused muscle and try to strenghetn underused muscle.

I think now i need to include temporal muscle exercies then. I still don't know how to do it after reading whole thread. I guess it has to do with my lack of muscle connection.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/09/2020 1:55 am
Fluffycutecat
Eminent Member

Didn’t helmutstrebl mainly use his masseters, to the point where they were constantly tense?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/09/2020 9:22 am
Basim
Eminent Member
Posted by: @meowxilla

@lawnmewer

I think you can intepret it this way. Think of bone as structure which has to resist stress and muscle as tissue which does stressing.

Now with very very strong masseters bone needs to be biggeer in order to resist force they apply. Makes sense?

Cheekbones get weider cause you are stressing over them with temporal muscle. Bones respond to muscles. Sometimes they get bigger (temporalis case) sometimes they get smaller due to too much preassure on them (masseteer case).

I think some animals use masseters primarily and thus need strong bones in order so that they don't colapse under preassure of muscle. Stronger muscles require bigger bones to resist them. When you overuse muscle your bones shorten due to too much preassure exerted on them.

If those animals wanted biger muscles they would need bigger bones to support them in order to stay in balanced. If you do it too much disbalance causes too much bone loss.

In my opinion fix for CFD is dependent on your muscle imbalance. Fix overused muscle and try to strenghetn underused muscle.

I think now i need to include temporal muscle exercies then. I still don't know how to do it after reading whole thread. I guess it has to do with my lack of muscle connection.

 

 

In practice that would work as getting stronger and bigger muscles will remodel your bones to handle the stress you placed upon to that muscle. However, I have found that bone structure allows proper muscle function and this is why I don’t chew gum or hard foods because it worse my face and give me un desired results and for a lot people who are class 2 mainly.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/09/2020 4:14 pm
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@basim

I am also class 2 (overbite) recessed chin and maxilla. Don't know which skeletal type to be exact. So i am confused if i should then use temporal muscles. But i can't find a good way to activate them properly.

So i am debating if i should be chewing with mewing or not. Can't find a consenzus on what should i do. I think it mainly depends on malocclusion type and i have not seen it being discussed anywhere or maybe i missed it.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/09/2020 4:44 pm
Page 3 / 4