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Jaws: Masseter pattern vs Temporal pattern  

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EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @maxiller

@eddiemoney

I believe incisor/canine contact is a strong component for both prognathic jaws and a defined brow ridge

Does your class 3 mean your chewing pattern is more frontal?

Earlier in the post was cited a paper "The Anterior Dental Loading Hypothesis" which is a very interesting read
Also the wikipedia for Brow Ridge is insightful

I don't know, I see lots of people with prognathism and no brow ridge just as I see many orthognathic individuals with a strong brow. Plus, there has to be a genetic and hormonal component since they are seen more in men than women. 

Most of my life my chewing was all on my right molars. But I think I ended up Class 3 due to resting my tongue on my lower palate. That or maybe because while I didn't have forward head posture, I did have my neck shortened with my chin up all the time. It probably caused my midface to collapse, which is essentially what Class 3 is (midface hypoplasia with an overgrown mandible).

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Posted : 04/02/2020 5:24 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

To add to what @Elwynn and @Authority were saying, I do feel like from an aesthetic standpoint, the masseter heavy skull would produce more facial aesthetics due to the palate being wider, jaw growing forward and down more, and overall broader facial features. The temporalis skull was wider, true, but the palate narrow and the face vertically short. It didn't have prominent zygos either and it was vertically short. 

I think men can probably benefit from more masseter usage if those skulls show accurate representations of how the face develops. 

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Posted : 04/02/2020 5:31 pm
mformewing
New Member

@maxiller @progress

I have class 2 and while biting back and up with my temporalis I feel the sutures on my weaker developed side, to the point that it hurts, not sure if its tmj. do you guys think it is possible to push through this pain until this side is developed like the other or am I doing sth wrong and the pain should not be there. When stoping and placing my jaw a bit more forward, how it feels natural with my recessed faced it take a few minites untill the pain on my jaw joint(weaker side) stops

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Posted : 06/02/2020 8:09 am
max iller
Eminent Member

@mformewing

Avoid too much pain, and make sure youre not pushing your jaw into your inner ear.

Which suture site is being stressed?

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Posted : 06/02/2020 7:32 pm
QuantumFizzix
New Member

If anyone has the chisell 2.0 temporalis activation is quite easy. Just clench on it as hard as you can and the temporalii start to vigorously burn within 10 seconds. If you want to develop the masseter pattern instead, simply biting down on the product hard and then releasing gives the masseter the same burn. The owners also claim this product has 180 lbs of resitance (90lbs for each tab). and each tab is placed on the molars. 

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Posted : 06/02/2020 11:01 pm
mformewing
New Member

@maxiller

i dont know the names, but i can feel sth i the canal of the left ear and also a surure going up and 1 forward from the earcanal. how do i know if i am pushing into my inner ear?

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Posted : 13/02/2020 9:40 am
max iller
Eminent Member

@mformewing

If your jaw is at all messing with your ears I'd be very careful.

Use this as a reference to find where you're feeling adjustment, if your jaw is backward much it'll start imposing on your hearing.

Interestingly I have a very set-back mandible and suffered from vertigo attacks, ear infection type pain as well as headaches almost every day (got worse with hard mewing), all of which have gone away since I've made an effort to release tension in my jaw, and return it to it's natural forward position. 

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Posted : 13/02/2020 4:42 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@maxiller

Interestingly I have a very set-back mandible and suffered from vertigo attacks, ear infection type pain as well as headaches almost every day (got worse with hard mewing), all of which have gone away since I've made an effort to release tension in my jaw, and return it to it's natural forward position. 

Would you mind explaining what you have done to release tension from your jaw, how you're mewing now and what you were doing before that was making your TMJ-like problems worse (were you clenching, for instance)?

24 years old

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Posted : 13/02/2020 6:35 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

@elwynn

I held my molars together in their comfortable occlusion and had my tongue on my palate cluelessly in the beginning, I was clenching a lot, I had a habit of bruxing. Even before The Mew I'd chew my food way harder than I needed to and it sometimes hurt my teeth, inner ear and felt like doing reps on the sides of my head. As a result I've got a dummy thick temporalis that looks completely bunk. Look at Tyler1 for reference.

Most days I'd come down with a light to mad pulsing headache in my temples and behind my eyes which lasted the rest of the day. I always thought it was just dehydration or something, these headaches became much more regular while I was hardmewing with my jaws clenched. Eventually I made the connection that it was directly related to my headaches and ear pain, the more I clenched, the worse it got. I'd been having unexplained pain for ages and I finally figured out why, hallelujah.

Resting my molars together lightly or even slightly apart contracts my temporalis, Leading to a headache after a full day of contracted temporalis. Being in this position my TMJ was backing up into my inner ear which applied pressure and would sometimes hurt. I also believe this gave me occasional bouts of vertigo. I had an sizeable amount of tension in my skull for a decent portion of my day to day.

I noticed that jutting my mandible forward relieves my head and ears of the pressure, opens up my airway and feels very relaxed and comfortable. Stretching my jaw forward feels really nice. In this position (basically a class 3) the recession of face becomes much more obvious, But I can mew fine and I'm almost certain this is the correct position of my jaw, usually I stretch my jaw further forward to eliminate as much temporal activation as I can, hoping for atrophy to return to a normal looking head shape.

My current mewing regime is experimenting with forward tongue force with my jaw jutted, anterior chewing, and softmewing at night.
My main focus is on maxilla/midface protraction.

Hope this tedious as freak* story answered your questions blud

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Posted : 14/02/2020 4:31 am
Bogdar
Eminent Member
Posted by: @maxiller

From my personal observations with myself, temporalis activation seems to be linked with my mandibles position in the skull. My jaw is quite set back and results in a very active and strong temporalis that gave me headaches. When I mew with my jaw jutted forward however I get more masseter activity in ratio and less pressure in my skull from temporalis activation. This has helped a lot with my headaches. And shows me functionally that my maxilla needs to come forward if I dont want a Tyler1 head

By the logic of this theory I may very well have recessed myself with my temporal meat smh

I haven't read the entire thread. That being said, discussing about the roles of different mastication muscles in jaw physiology is very interesting. To support your point maxiller, I had the same caused headaches when my mandible was very retracted. It connected when I read this overwhelming article https://mskneurology.com/true-cause-solution-temporomandibular-dysfunction-tmd/ , on the "headaches" part, I quote:

"The most common cause of TMD-related headaches are caused by the temporalis muscle, in my experience. Continuous retraction of the mandible will cause great imbalances between the muscles of mastication, often leaving the very strong masseter (a muscle that protracts the jaw) underused, overburdening the temporalis muscle (that pulls the mandible back / retraction). In addition to further the compressive forces in the TMJ, it will often cause trigger points in the temporalis muscles that cause headaches."
I experienced the same trigger points, but they were actually lethal trigger point. It would make me cry each time I push them, and when walking I felt like my head was heavily compressed between 2 pistons.

 

To adress directly the topic by anecdotal experience, my degeneration has been in pair with decreasing masseter volume. Now that I somehow took things back in control, I was able to work on my masseters, and chewing, resting mandible position, temporalis-caused headaches, all are 10x more confortable. I even gained some low third credibility, more width and structure.

 

Also, for what it's worth, short & wide faced people often have strong voluminous masseters. I still think they have a lot to do in bone structure and overall shape of the face.

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Posted : 14/02/2020 10:58 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@bogdar

I like to balance chewing by protracting and retracting as I get closer to the molars. This way my biting is balanced between the two. I do this going clockwise and counterclockwise while I chew. It causes all cusps of my teeth to touch and involves balance between temporalis and masseters. 

 

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Posted : 14/02/2020 11:16 am
Bogdar
Eminent Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney

@bogdar

I like to balance chewing by protracting and retracting as I get closer to the molars. This way my biting is balanced between the two. I do this going clockwise and counterclockwise while I chew. It causes all cusps of my teeth to touch and involves balance between temporalis and masseters. 

 

To answer your previous post (which I think you might have deleted ?) I read a bit the first page and I have to assume this all look still mysterious to me. However in my case and in many others I guess, it might not be a concern since both masseters and temporalis are used when chewing. As always it is about balance.

It's obvious to say but it depends on each case; I personally had long face pattern with non-existing masseters, now that I have some my face is more harmonious. In the same time, I grew some ramus on each side, and eventhough we could think of it as "elongating my face" since it means vertical growth, it results in a much more masculine, proportionate face.

But in my case my bite is near perfect, except for 1 mm between incisors, all my teeth, front and rear are in contact.

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Posted : 14/02/2020 11:36 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @bogdar
Posted by: @eddiemoney

@bogdar

I like to balance chewing by protracting and retracting as I get closer to the molars. This way my biting is balanced between the two. I do this going clockwise and counterclockwise while I chew. It causes all cusps of my teeth to touch and involves balance between temporalis and masseters. 

 

To answer your previous post (which I think you might have deleted ?) I read a bit the first page and I have to assume this all look still mysterious to me. However in my case and in many others I guess, it might not be a concern since both masseters and temporalis are used when chewing. As always it is about balance.

It's obvious to say but it depends on each case; I personally had long face pattern with non-existing masseters, now that I have some my face is more harmonious. In the same time, I grew some ramus on each side, and eventhough we could think of it as "elongating my face" since it means vertical growth, it results in a much more masculine, proportionate face.

But in my case my bite is near perfect, except for 1 mm between incisors, all my teeth, front and rear are in contact.

I couldn't figure how to link the post so I deleted it. But my original point was that a balance should probably be achieved since it seems that temporalis activation widens the cheekbones even if doesn't widen the palate.

I wonder if I have heightened temporalis activation since my cheekbones are broad. But then again my face has prognathism so I have no idea. But this prognathism isn't even maxillary and my face doesn't match either of those skulls in the post anyway. And my palate isn't even wide, either. I am one of those lucky people (I suppose) who managed to have decent facial width with a palate that started in the high 30s.

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Posted : 14/02/2020 12:20 pm
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

I'm a bit confused with what I should be taking from this to be honest. This stuff about how to use your masseters and temporalis properly. 

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Posted : 14/02/2020 12:34 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @oatmeal

I'm a bit confused with what I should be taking from this to be honest. This stuff about how to use your masseters and temporalis properly. 

Chew backwards to shorten the face.

Chew forwards to project the maxilla. 

I think a balance is always needed. Some favor one over the other and that's when you run into problems. 

The "neutral" maxilla is always ideal. Not too long, short, or wide. Just enough growth balance in all directions. Temporalis skull looks too short, masseter skull too long. 

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Posted : 14/02/2020 2:36 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@maxiller

Hope this tedious as freak* story answered your questions

It definitely did, thank you.

I find it very interesting that your temporalis muscles contract whenever you have your teeth in contact, even if very lightly. This does not happen to me. As I said earlier, I have Class II with a retruded mandible, and when I make light contact with my front teeth (which is what I try to do at rest), I feel virtually no stimulation of my temporalis. If I bite down with my front teeth, I feel minor stimulation of my temporalis. In both cases, the muscles that are activated most strongly are the masseters. This is in complete contrast to what happens when I bite down with my back teeth - especially when I bite down backwards. In that situation, it is my temporalis that activate, while my masseters remain almost entirely at rest.

It follows that if you've got over-developed temporalis, you should employ an occlusion and a posture that limits stress on the temporalis, maybe in favor of the masseters. Conversely, if you've got over-developed masseters, you should employ an occlusion and a posture that limits stress on the masseters, maybe in favor of the temporalis. It makes sense logically, but I am not sure if it's so simple in practice.

For example, I have well-developed masseters and they're quite large when I flex them. I can't really tell whether my temporalis are well-developed or not, but they're certainly not over-developed. My above reasoning suggests that I should be biting backwards, in order to activate my temporalis, but this seems conter-intuitive considering that my mandible is already positioned too far back. Hmm...

Anyway, all this further supports the observation that not everyone here has the same type of CFD. And if our cases are different, it follows that our methods of treatment should also possibly be. I'm glad that you have figured out that constant teeth contact was causing problems for you. For me, however, I suspect that I'll need to take a different approach.

24 years old

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Posted : 14/02/2020 3:10 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

What would you say that a person with a retracted mandible should do? On the one hand, I could use some shortening of the mid-section. On the other hand, I am concerned about developing TMJ problems as a result of biting backwards. I've never had any TMJ problems before, but I believe that I am at risk for it due to my CFD.

24 years old

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Posted : 14/02/2020 3:16 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@eddiemoney

What would you say that a person with a retracted mandible should do? On the one hand, I could use some shortening of the mid-section. On the other hand, I am concerned about developing TMJ problems as a result of biting backwards. I've never had any TMJ problems before, but I believe that I am at risk for it due to my CFD.

I like to chew like I workout. An even balance between all teeth in biting. Rotate the bolus from molars to bicuspids to canines to incisors back to canines, bicuspids, and molars on the other side.

Now some people do this entirely with one muscle so to even it out, when you get closer to the front teeth begin protraction (masseter activation) and when you go to the back begin to pull with your temporalis is retraction. 

This works for me and I feel a balance. But sometimes I can do it entirely with my temporalis. Not that I recommend that.

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Posted : 15/02/2020 1:52 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

I'll try this. Thank you.

24 years old

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Posted : 15/02/2020 3:12 pm
Bogdar
Eminent Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@eddiemoney

I'll try this. Thank you.

I would seriously advice against chewing when you have overly retruded mandible, temporalis tension and so on. I know the jaws are made for chewing, but a bad condyle place will only destroy them by applying way to much force in non physiological directions. The condyle placement must be adressed before getting into chewing tough stuff. This is adressed by nose breathing h24, closing your jaw during day & night and other stuff that a specialist could help you with

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Posted : 16/02/2020 7:21 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@bogdar

By this logic wouldn't most people mess themselves up from chewing? Or do you think that CFD is common but not always in the form of a retruded mandible?

Btw do you think if all wisdom teeth erupted that the mandibular placement is ideal?

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Posted : 16/02/2020 10:14 am
Bogdar
Eminent Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney

@bogdar

By this logic wouldn't most people mess themselves up from chewing? Or do you think that CFD is common but not always in the form of a retruded mandible?

Btw do you think if all wisdom teeth erupted that the mandibular placement is ideal?

It just depends on the case. Lots of people don't seem to have too much retruded mandible and it won't pose any problem. I might be wrong but as an example, if you have such a retruded mandible that you have big trigger points in temporalis, I definitely think chewing tough foods will be a problem. It was in my case. It is just because the joint is in a bad restricted place. Just protrude your mandible a few mm, or eat with a retainer, and it won't jam up the condyle.

I do also think that lots of people who have greatly retruded mandible don't eat tough foods, as must of the population.

 

Indeed, CFD is common but not always in the form of a retruded mandible. It is one of the many "symptoms" but nature is so diversified, some may not have retruded mandibles.

If all wisdom teeth erupted without any previous extractions, it is not a sign of "ideal" but at least a sign that something went good. It sure is most of the time a good indicator of jaw health if all teeth have their place

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Posted : 16/02/2020 11:03 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@bogdar

I would seriously advice against chewing when you have overly retruded mandible, temporalis tension and so on. I know the jaws are made for chewing, but a bad condyle place will only destroy them by applying way to much force in non physiological directions. The condyle placement must be adressed before getting into chewing tough stuff. This is adressed by nose breathing h24, closing your jaw during day & night and other stuff that a specialist could help you with.

I appreciate your concern, but I think that I'll be fine. I have no temporalis tension, and my oral posture has greatly improved over the past year. I've also chewed tough foods before without any problems.

24 years old

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Posted : 17/02/2020 1:38 am
Progress
Member Moderator

Great to see that this thread has generated so much discussion. Here is a possibly relevant study I came across today. This study was based on the hypothesis that the temporal bones are at the center of the dynamics of the craniofacial complex, which I think could be a misguided notion, because the sphenoid is more likely to be the actual "keystone" of the skull around which the other bones revolve. In spite of this, the study proposes a very interesting model, because it both complements and contradicts the ideas discussed in this thread while also shedding some further light into the craniofacial dynamics.

 

"According to Sato’s hypotheses regarding the dynamic functional anatomy of the craniofacial complex (Fig. 1), an increased flexion of the skull base promotes a clockwise rotation of the sphenoid bone. This rotation transfers a downward vertical force, through the vomer bone to the maxillary complex, leading to the vertical elongation of this complex. This vertical elongation limits the antero-posterior growth of the maxillary complex, causing posterior discrepancy (crowding), which in turn motivates an excessive eruption of the maxillary molars, creating an excessively horizontal maxillary (upper) posterior occlusal plane. The mandible then has to adapt to this occlusal plane in order to keep occlusal function, and does so by anterior rotation.

This anterior rotational adaptation of the mandible promoted by the neuromuscular system has two effects. On one hand, it leads to a decompression of the condyles, which then grow secondary, and at the same time it diminishes the compression exerted on the mandibular fossa of the temporal bone, which in combination with the traction effect exerted by the chewing muscles (masseter and temporal) suffers external rotation. The skull thus assumes a greater transverse dimension.

This external rotation of the temporal bone, through its direct connection with the sphenoid and occipital bones near the midline, influences flexion of the spheno-occipital synchondrosis. This bending of the midline bones determines a smaller anterior–posterior skull base, while influencing further clockwise rotation of the sphenoid bone, which again drives this cycle. An increased extension of the cranial base would have the reverse effect on the craniofacial complex: a steeper upper posterior occlusal plane, lower vertical dimension, a more retrognathic mandible and internal rotation of the temporal bones, accompanied by an anterior–posteriorly longer and transversally narrower skull base."

Link to the study.

What I take away from this is that masticatory muscle usage could theoretically rotate the temporal bones externally, which would urge the sphenoid bone to rotate clockwise, increasing maxillary length, widening the face and swinging the mandible forward. Ironically this downward shift of the maxilla causing the maxillary molars to erupt further is deemed "excessive", even though this eruption triggers the favorable mandibular rotation and encourages the ramii to lengthen. However, the originator for the neurocranial movement described above is viewed as being the result of flexion vs extension of the cranial base, which is generally deemed impossible to influence in adulthood by cranial osteopaths.

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Posted : 18/02/2020 10:13 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member

@progress

What role do you think the lateral and medial pterygoid play? If you view the temporal bone rotation as the originator of this favorable cranial restructuring, then I guess their role is not much. If the sphenoid has a major part in causing this restructuring, then their action must be considered, right? Iirc they act along with the masseter, so if the goal is to increase temporalis proportion and decrease masseter proportion, their action would be minimized along with the masseter's action.

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Posted : 19/02/2020 11:15 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @qwerty135

@progress

What role do you think the lateral and medial pterygoid play? If you view the temporal bone rotation as the originator of this favorable cranial restructuring, then I guess their role is not much. If the sphenoid has a major part in causing this restructuring, then their action must be considered, right? Iirc they act along with the masseter, so if the goal is to increase temporalis proportion and decrease masseter proportion, their action would be minimized along with the masseter's action.

That's a good question. Since they connect the maxilla, mandible and sphenoid to each other, I'm willing to bet that the pterygoids do play an important role in cranial dynamics and I've speculated about this role in some of my earlier posts. Ultimately it is very difficult to determine which bone or muscle is a slave and which one a master because there are so many factors to consider. Possibly the intra-cranial dynamics form a feedback loop? This is what was suggested in the above study:

Internal (a) or external (b) rotation of the temporal bones influences extension or flexion of the spheno-occipital synchondrosis. The altered spatial positioning of the sphenoid bone then influences, through the vomer bone, the maxillary complex. The vertical dimension of this complex together with the inclination of the posterior upper occlusal plane influence anterior–posterior positioning of the mandible, which in turn further influences the temporal bones and again stimulates the cycle. 
In this case, there probably would be no single clear originator. You would just have to disrupt the cycle at some juncture in order to change its course.
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Posted : 20/02/2020 9:46 am
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member
Posted by: @progress

Found an interesting study that affirms the premises of this thread. A couple of bits:

An orthognathic[=normal] maxilla is also present in individuals with a large temporalis muscle proportion, suggesting a key role of the form of the maxilla in the production and resistance of masticatory loads.

...a large temporalis proportion is associated with a relatively antero-posteriorly elongated neurocranium and mandibular ramus, wider upper face and less prognathic, narrower, vertically shorter maxilla compared to those individuals with small temporalis proportions

...there is evidence of a weak relationship between temporalis muscle CSA and skull and face shape that is at least consistent with the location, anatomy and function of this muscle and anatomical space required to accommodate it.

Thus, Weijs and Hillen (1986) have also noted that temporalis and masseter CSA appear to be positively correlated with facial width. With regard to the relationship found between a relatively small temporalis proportion and a vertically elongated skull and face, van Spronsen (2010) noted such an association and suggested that a long face is the result of a diminished muscle force

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, increased temporalis proportion was also associated with more narrow palates, though this relationship was deemed more inconclusive than the other more positive aspects of large temporalis proportion:

 

In relation to the relationship suggested by the present analyses between larger temporalis proportion and narrower maxillae, there are few and inconclusive studies addressing the mechanical impact of variations in maxillary width on masticatory mechanics. In women, a wide dental arch has been noted to be associated with a (medio-laterally) thicker masseter (Kiliaridis
et al., 2003), whereas no relationship between bite force and dental arch width was found in pre-adolescents (Sonnesen and Bakke, 2005). It should be borne in mind, however, that a combination of an orthognathic, less prognathic and wide maxilla at the posterior teeth (and vice versa) may result in deviations from the normally found elliptic–parabolic (in rough terms) maxillary arch (Burris and Harris, 2000; Ferrario et al., 1994), and therefore a narrowmaxilla in individuals with a large temporalis proportion may not necessarily be functionally significant

http://repositorio.uchile.cl/bitstream/handle/2250/136879/The-relationship-between-skull-morphology.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

So in conclusion, temporalis activity correlates with:

  • longer ramus
  • longer skull
  • shorter maxilla
  • wider face
  • (narrower maxilla)

Wow, this is very interesting. I happen to have a 'small' neurocranium. Basically the upper half of my head is just as wide as my zygos. I' ve never seen any man with optimal craniofacial development have this, so I have always been suspicious. Now this confirms everything.

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Posted : 20/02/2020 7:21 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member
Posted by: @progress

@Progress Do you think that most people require CCW rotation or CW rotation of the temporal bones? Or does it depend on the case? Because in modern populations, we see a lot of retruded mandibles and compressed condyles across the board (regardless of facial type, occlusion, short faced, long faced etc), suggesting that most people have their temporal bones rotated too much CW, and could benefit from CCW rotation shown on the right. 

Posted by: @progress
Possibly the intra-cranial dynamics form a feedback loop? ... In this case, there probably would be no single clear originator. You would just have to disrupt the cycle at some juncture in order to change its course.

That could explain why many chewing results are unimpressive, resulting in hypertrophy but lack of skeletal change or even unfavorable change, and yet why a select few chewing results are incredibly impressive. They managed to disrupt the feedback loop you posit.

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Posted : 21/02/2020 2:31 am
Progress
Member Moderator

@qwerty135 It probably depends on the case. For example, when I was a child I underwent a retractive orthodontic treatment where my maxilla was pulled back, the aim of which I suspect was to compensate for the effects shown in 'a)'. However this kind of treatment would not be common enough to describe 'most people'. Though on the other hand, the forward rotation of the maxilla illustrated by 'a)' appears like it could also be the product of insufficient lip seal, which is a common problem. If this was a meaningful factor, it could mean that CCW rotation of the temporalii is just the final consequence of lip sealed maxilla pushing against the sphenoid.

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Posted : 21/02/2020 9:37 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @horatio
Posted by: @progress

Found an interesting study that affirms the premises of this thread. A couple of bits:

An orthognathic[=normal] maxilla is also present in individuals with a large temporalis muscle proportion, suggesting a key role of the form of the maxilla in the production and resistance of masticatory loads.

...a large temporalis proportion is associated with a relatively antero-posteriorly elongated neurocranium and mandibular ramus, wider upper face and less prognathic, narrower, vertically shorter maxilla compared to those individuals with small temporalis proportions

...there is evidence of a weak relationship between temporalis muscle CSA and skull and face shape that is at least consistent with the location, anatomy and function of this muscle and anatomical space required to accommodate it.

Thus, Weijs and Hillen (1986) have also noted that temporalis and masseter CSA appear to be positively correlated with facial width. With regard to the relationship found between a relatively small temporalis proportion and a vertically elongated skull and face, van Spronsen (2010) noted such an association and suggested that a long face is the result of a diminished muscle force

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, increased temporalis proportion was also associated with more narrow palates, though this relationship was deemed more inconclusive than the other more positive aspects of large temporalis proportion:

 

In relation to the relationship suggested by the present analyses between larger temporalis proportion and narrower maxillae, there are few and inconclusive studies addressing the mechanical impact of variations in maxillary width on masticatory mechanics. In women, a wide dental arch has been noted to be associated with a (medio-laterally) thicker masseter (Kiliaridis
et al., 2003), whereas no relationship between bite force and dental arch width was found in pre-adolescents (Sonnesen and Bakke, 2005). It should be borne in mind, however, that a combination of an orthognathic, less prognathic and wide maxilla at the posterior teeth (and vice versa) may result in deviations from the normally found elliptic–parabolic (in rough terms) maxillary arch (Burris and Harris, 2000; Ferrario et al., 1994), and therefore a narrowmaxilla in individuals with a large temporalis proportion may not necessarily be functionally significant

http://repositorio.uchile.cl/bitstream/handle/2250/136879/The-relationship-between-skull-morphology.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

So in conclusion, temporalis activity correlates with:

  • longer ramus
  • longer skull
  • shorter maxilla
  • wider face
  • (narrower maxilla)

Wow, this is very interesting. I happen to have a 'small' neurocranium. Basically the upper half of my head is just as wide as my zygos. I' ve never seen any man with optimal craniofacial development have this, so I have always been suspicious. Now this confirms everything.

Is it optimal to have an upper half of the head that is greater in width than your zygos? I think that would make one look like they have a giant head. Usually guys with optimal facial development don't tend to have super wide upper skulls. I think facial width matters way more than how far out your temples go. A head that is broader than cheekbones would surely look overly neotenous.

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Posted : 21/02/2020 12:08 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member
Posted by: @progress

@qwerty135 It probably depends on the case. For example, when I was a child I underwent a retractive orthodontic treatment where my maxilla was pulled back, the aim of which I suspect was to compensate for the effects shown in 'a)'. However this kind of treatment would not be common enough to describe 'most people'. Though on the other hand, the forward rotation of the maxilla illustrated by 'a)' appears like it could also be the product of insufficient lip seal, which is a common problem. If this was a meaningful factor, it could mean that CCW rotation of the temporalii is just the final consequence of lip sealed maxilla pushing against the sphenoid.

That's interesting to hear. For me, when I have my teeth together along the temporal vector and my tongue suctioned up, my lip seal strengthens greatly. Though I wonder how this mechanism (CCW rotation of temporal bone) would increase midfacial protrusion. Perhaps the vertical eruption of the posterior maxillary molars and decrease of the depth of the palate would trigger favorable remodeling around the mandibular angle, allowing for decompression of the masseter-zygo axis.

But in terms of a potential originator of this favorable change, I do think proper usage of the masticatory muscles is the key. For one, as I mentioned above, when I engage the temporal pattern, my lip seal increases. But also, just using critical thinking, someone with even mild CFD dropped into the Paleolithic world would either survive or die on the basis of their masticatory muscles. The average maximum bite force of even brachyfacial individuals in a modern population is 1/10th of the MBF of Inuit natives. Either the body would adapt quickly, or the individual would die due to an inability to chew the requisite hours. The body must have a self-correcting mechanism for CFD, at least when it's relatively mild, and when it's placed in the proper environment, that mechanism would be triggered. Lip seal, sphenoid rotation, etc would come as a result of the environmental changes (ie the proper usage of the masticatory muscles). Just my two cents.

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Posted : 22/02/2020 5:26 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

Ideally, the upper half of the head should be only somewhat larger than the zygos, at least that's what many people with good craniofacial development seem to have in common. Yeah, obviously it shouldn't be noticeably wider either.

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Posted : 22/02/2020 6:44 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

Also, am I the only one whose molars automatically approach each other when I do the lip seal? Maybe molars should really be in contact.

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Posted : 22/02/2020 6:48 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

I don't know how I could take a pic of this because my mouth would be closed but I feel like my molars "attract" each other while doing the lip seal. When I let it loose my teeth (obviously) just hang there. But honestly this contact vs no contact debate has been going on for quite a while now. We should just ask successful mewers what they do. In my case when I started mewing I followed the "instructions", which included light clenching of the molars. I got some results from it, so why not stick to it?

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Posted : 22/02/2020 7:12 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @qwerty135
Posted by: @progress

That's interesting to hear. For me, when I have my teeth together along the temporal vector and my tongue suctioned up, my lip seal strengthens greatly. Though I wonder how this mechanism (CCW rotation of temporal bone) would increase midfacial protrusion. Perhaps the vertical eruption of the posterior maxillary molars and decrease of the depth of the palate would trigger favorable remodeling around the mandibular angle, allowing for decompression of the masseter-zygo axis.

But in terms of a potential originator of this favorable change, I do think proper usage of the masticatory muscles is the key. For one, as I mentioned above, when I engage the temporal pattern, my lip seal increases. But also, just using critical thinking, someone with even mild CFD dropped into the Paleolithic world would either survive or die on the basis of their masticatory muscles. The average maximum bite force of even brachyfacial individuals in a modern population is 1/10th of the MBF of Inuit natives. Either the body would adapt quickly, or the individual would die due to an inability to chew the requisite hours. The body must have a self-correcting mechanism for CFD, at least when it's relatively mild, and when it's placed in the proper environment, that mechanism would be triggered. Lip seal, sphenoid rotation, etc would come as a result of the environmental changes (ie the proper usage of the masticatory muscles). Just my two cents.

Yeah, that seems like the strongest premise at the moment. I notice the same thing about lip seal & temporalis synergy.

@horatio Same here. That's essentially the nature of vacuum, it pulls things together. How does it feel if you try to fight against it by keeping your teeth slightly apart? Weird/natural?

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Posted : 22/02/2020 7:13 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

@progress

It feels forced , like I have to engage the muscles of my mouth area to keep the molars apart. When the molars are in contact these muscles seem to be more relaxed.

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Posted : 22/02/2020 7:23 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@horatio

I also feel much more comfortable keeping my teeth in light contact.

24 years old

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Posted : 22/02/2020 8:23 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @horatio

@eddiemoney

Ideally, the upper half of the head should be only somewhat larger than the zygos, at least that's what many people with good craniofacial development seem to have in common. Yeah, obviously it shouldn't be noticeably wider either.

I quoted the wrong post. Got pics of heads like this?

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Posted : 22/02/2020 9:49 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member

@Progress Do you think chewing (dynamic, intermittent load) vs gentle clenching (static, intermittent load) makes a difference in how the bone reacts to this activation of the temporalii and this force on the maxilla along the temporal axis? I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Wolff's Law, but I assume that a dynamic load at 1-2 Hz would induce a different response than a static load.

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Posted : 24/02/2020 11:46 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @qwerty135

@Progress Do you think chewing (dynamic, intermittent load) vs gentle clenching (static, intermittent load) makes a difference in how the bone reacts to this activation of the temporalii and this force on the maxilla along the temporal axis? I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Wolff's Law, but I assume that a dynamic load at 1-2 Hz would induce a different response than a static load.

I don't know to be honest. Hypothetically, even if static loading was more effective than chewing, chewing does increase your unconscious capability for static loading by improving muscle tone. It does seem that the only thing some achieve with chewing is excessive muscular hypertrophy with little changes in bone. I'm inclined to think that static forces, even when generated by weak musculature, would be more powerful than strong intermittent forces, though I have no real reasoning to back this up with. It just makes more intuitive sense that the skull is gently guided to the right direction rather than abruptly forced. 

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Posted : 24/02/2020 12:58 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

Look up Andreas Eriksen for example. He is well known for having 'big' cheekbones but his temples are still wider.

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Posted : 24/02/2020 1:57 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@horatio

I see. I looked face toward the mirror and saw that my own temples are past my cheekbones, so I guess it isn't strange looking as I thought it was. 

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Posted : 24/02/2020 2:39 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @qwerty135

@Progress Do you think chewing (dynamic, intermittent load) vs gentle clenching (static, intermittent load) makes a difference in how the bone reacts to this activation of the temporalii and this force on the maxilla along the temporal axis? I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Wolff's Law, but I assume that a dynamic load at 1-2 Hz would induce a different response than a static load.

I don't know to be honest. Hypothetically, even if static loading was more effective than chewing, chewing does increase your unconscious capability for static loading by improving muscle tone. It does seem that the only thing some achieve with chewing is excessive muscular hypertrophy with little changes in bone. I'm inclined to think that static forces, even when generated by weak musculature, would be more powerful than strong intermittent forces, though I have no real reasoning to back this up with. It just makes more intuitive sense that the skull is gently guided to the right direction rather than abruptly forced. 

Makes sense, thanks.

By the way, are you still able to engage solely the temporalii and not the masseters at all when biting along the temporal vector? For the first week or so, I was able to, but now my occlusion meets much more evenly (curve of spee absolutely gone), and my molars touching means that regardless of how I bite, my masseters are activated to some degree. My temporalii are still engaged when I bite upwards and backwards, but now my masseters engage with them. I’m trying to adjust my technique to minimize masseter recruitment, but I wonder if it’s inevitable to some degree (as even short faced people with larger temporlis proportion have greater masseter strength in absolute terms than long faced people with greater masseter proportion). 

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Posted : 24/02/2020 3:30 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @qwerty135
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @qwerty135

@Progress Do you think chewing (dynamic, intermittent load) vs gentle clenching (static, intermittent load) makes a difference in how the bone reacts to this activation of the temporalii and this force on the maxilla along the temporal axis? I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Wolff's Law, but I assume that a dynamic load at 1-2 Hz would induce a different response than a static load.

I don't know to be honest. Hypothetically, even if static loading was more effective than chewing, chewing does increase your unconscious capability for static loading by improving muscle tone. It does seem that the only thing some achieve with chewing is excessive muscular hypertrophy with little changes in bone. I'm inclined to think that static forces, even when generated by weak musculature, would be more powerful than strong intermittent forces, though I have no real reasoning to back this up with. It just makes more intuitive sense that the skull is gently guided to the right direction rather than abruptly forced. 

Makes sense, thanks.

By the way, are you still able to engage solely the temporalii and not the masseters at all when biting along the temporal vector? For the first week or so, I was able to, but now my occlusion meets much more evenly (curve of spee absolutely gone), and my molars touching means that regardless of how I bite, my masseters are activated to some degree. My temporalii are still engaged when I bite upwards and backwards, but now my masseters engage with them. I’m trying to adjust my technique to minimize masseter recruitment, but I wonder if it’s inevitable to some degree (as even short faced people with larger temporlis proportion have greater masseter strength in absolute terms than long faced people with greater masseter proportion). 

I think a balanced bite should be ideal vs a temporalis heavy bite or masseter heavy one. The body never does well with an imbalance. 

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Posted : 24/02/2020 4:12 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @qwerty135

 

Makes sense, thanks.

By the way, are you still able to engage solely the temporalii and not the masseters at all when biting along the temporal vector? For the first week or so, I was able to, but now my occlusion meets much more evenly (curve of spee absolutely gone), and my molars touching means that regardless of how I bite, my masseters are activated to some degree. My temporalii are still engaged when I bite upwards and backwards, but now my masseters engage with them. I’m trying to adjust my technique to minimize masseter recruitment, but I wonder if it’s inevitable to some degree (as even short faced people with larger temporlis proportion have greater masseter strength in absolute terms than long faced people with greater masseter proportion). 

I can isolate the temporalii only when I'm not chewing on anything. Interesting that your curve of spee has reduced so quickly. Does this mean that your posterior molars have erupted more, or that your premolars have dug into the gums? Having the masseters and temporalii engage together probably is a sign of improved masticatory balance and not necessarily a bad thing.

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Posted : 24/02/2020 4:20 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney Yeah, that makes sense. I think the ultimate goal should be a balance.

Posted by: @progress

I can isolate the temporalii only when I'm not chewing on anything. Interesting that your curve of spee has reduced so quickly. Does this mean that your posterior molars have erupted more, or that your premolars have dug into the gums? Having the masseters and temporalii engage together probably is a sign of improved masticatory balance and not necessarily a bad thing.

I shouldn't have said the curve of spee is absolutely gone, because my posterior 2nd molars still don't meet...but the curvature of the teeth in front of them is negligible now. I think one part of that is that my upper left 1st molar erupted a bit, as it now makes solid contact with the lower, when before they were slightly apart even when the rest of teeth were in contact. Probably my premolars intruded a little to help with flattening out the occlusal plane. But interestingly, I still feel the main strain in my premolars when I engage temporal pattern, even though the rest of my occlusion is now meeting when it didn't before.

Also, that line at the roof of my maxilla, that runs along it sagittally and divides it into two halves and slightly pokes out from the roof, that line's become sore. I forget the name for it though.

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Posted : 24/02/2020 7:04 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@qwerty135

Also, that line at the roof of my maxilla, that runs along it sagittally and divides it into two halves and slightly pokes out from the roof, that line's become sore. I forget the name for it though.

The mid-palatal suture?

24 years old

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Posted : 24/02/2020 8:09 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@qwerty135

Also, that line at the roof of my maxilla, that runs along it sagittally and divides it into two halves and slightly pokes out from the roof, that line's become sore. I forget the name for it though.

The mid-palatal suture?

I don't know, does the midpalatal suture actually protrude downwards from the palate, and form a ridge? But yeah, the same spot. I thought it could be something located above the alveolar ridge pushing down onto the upper palate.

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Posted : 24/02/2020 10:42 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @qwerty135

@eddiemoney Yeah, that makes sense. I think the ultimate goal should be a balance.

Posted by: @progress

I can isolate the temporalii only when I'm not chewing on anything. Interesting that your curve of spee has reduced so quickly. Does this mean that your posterior molars have erupted more, or that your premolars have dug into the gums? Having the masseters and temporalii engage together probably is a sign of improved masticatory balance and not necessarily a bad thing.

I shouldn't have said the curve of spee is absolutely gone, because my posterior 2nd molars still don't meet...but the curvature of the teeth in front of them is negligible now. I think one part of that is that my upper left 1st molar erupted a bit, as it now makes solid contact with the lower, when before they were slightly apart even when the rest of teeth were in contact. Probably my premolars intruded a little to help with flattening out the occlusal plane. But interestingly, I still feel the main strain in my premolars when I engage temporal pattern, even though the rest of my occlusion is now meeting when it didn't before.

Also, that line at the roof of my maxilla, that runs along it sagittally and divides it into two halves and slightly pokes out from the roof, that line's become sore. I forget the name for it though.

Ah I see. I seem to end up with the opposite of spee when I align my molars. Not sure how to illustrate this but here is an attempt, the first one depicts regular overbite position and the second one rearmost molars in alignment:

 

Weirdly, retracting the jaw like this combines well with lip suction, and I think over time it should pull the upper alveolar ridge inward and close the gaps around my upper canines. In this position the depth of my overbite is also reduced and biting down results in pure temporalis activation. I'm not sure if I have some hidden anterior open bite or class 3 that has collapsed into an overbite, because the relationship between my jaws is pretty weird and does not resemble typical overbite.

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Posted : 25/02/2020 8:51 am
qwerty135
Eminent Member
Posted by: @progress

Weirdly, retracting the jaw like this combines well with lip suction, and I think over time it should pull the upper alveolar ridge inward and close the gaps around my upper canines.

You know, this synergy between temporalis pattern and lip seal is interesting. Lip seal makes me think of the proclined incisors we were talking about in the "Assorted Stories from the Web" thread, as well as the fact that the anterior maxilla experiences resorption as part of normal growth and development, as per these diagrams:

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/32016/0000058.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y (pg 455)

I note a couple things about these diagrams. For one, the A diagram explains how undereye support and cheekbone prominence would increase as a result of the temporal pattern pulling the alveolar process backwards.

But also, the B diagram shows how lip seal along with bone deposition in the posterior maxilla would lead to a wider, longer arch. The resorption of the anterior alveolar ridge would result in seemingly proclined incisors, while the deposition in the posterior maxilla would make one think that the teeth tipped forward while the sagittal position of the maxilla remained the same, when in reality the tips of the incisors were left behind and the maxilla "migrated" backwards. This would mean that the tongue pushing against the incisors isn't necessary. What do you all think?

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Posted : 25/02/2020 12:35 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @qwerty135
Posted by: @progress

Weirdly, retracting the jaw like this combines well with lip suction, and I think over time it should pull the upper alveolar ridge inward and close the gaps around my upper canines.

You know, this synergy between temporalis pattern and lip seal is interesting. Lip seal makes me think of the proclined incisors we were talking about in the "Assorted Stories from the Web" thread, as well as the fact that the anterior maxilla experiences resorption as part of normal growth and development, as per these diagrams:

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/32016/0000058.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y (pg 455)

I note a couple things about these diagrams. For one, the A diagram explains how undereye support and cheekbone prominence would increase as a result of the temporal pattern pulling the alveolar process backwards.

But also, the B diagram shows how lip seal along with bone deposition in the posterior maxilla would lead to a wider, longer arch. The resorption of the anterior alveolar ridge would result in seemingly proclined incisors, while the deposition in the posterior maxilla would make one think that the teeth tipped forward while the sagittal position of the maxilla remained the same, when in reality the tips of the incisors were left behind and the maxilla "migrated" backwards. This would mean that the tongue pushing against the incisors isn't necessary. What do you all think?

Only reason I personally push on my incisors and canines is because they were retroclined by treatment. Thus far they still remain retroclined so I doubt my tongue has overpowered my lips. If anything things may just be balancing out. 

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Posted : 25/02/2020 4:04 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member
 

 

 

In the last few days, I've found that as I bite backwards, if I adjust my bite in a certain way, I can minimize activation of the masseters while maintaining an active temporalis. However, as I minimize my masseter activation, a muscle under my chin starts to contract and activate. I suspect it to be the digastric muscle, which is an antagonist of the masseter and temporalis (as it opens the jaw). It's also a muscle activated during hard mewing and leads to a bulge under the chin.

So I assume that after continuing this for some weeks, the digastric muscle/temporalis antagonistic muscle system will strengthen. What's interesting is that the digastric muscle attaches to the mastoid process of the temporal bone, located in the posterior of the temporal bone.

Theoretically, if the digastric muscle shortens, it would pull the mastoid process forward and downward, causing a CCW rotation of the temporal bone as per this diagram, diagram b:

That would lead to favorable CW rotation of the sphenoid. I recall that helmutstrebl said when he hard mewed, the underside of his chin burned. Well, when one hard mews, both the temporalii and the digastric muscle activate. This could explain why some were able to get successful results from hard mewing.

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Posted : 08/03/2020 5:39 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

This is a little odd and tangential, but somewhat curious: I have always been able to wiggle my ears, but over the past few months, their range of motion has gotten significantly greater, and I can now raise them higher than I've been able to before. In fact, when I strongly flex the muscles around my ears, I feel the muscles at the back of my neck activate - this used to not happen before. I suspect that this is an unexpected but direct result of my facial musculature developing. I have clearly observed growth of my masseters and toning around my temples, brow, and cheekbones...so, it's not all that crazy that my ear muscles would be affected as well.

24 years old

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Posted : 09/03/2020 12:43 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

@elwynn

This isn't necessarily important but having good muscle control around the ears, back of the head, and front; helps circulate blood through the top and crown of the head which is hypothesized to be a factor in pattern baldness. Hair follicles die off as the blood supply is cut from them and it's thought that instead of DHT being the prime culprit its actually poor circulation.

There is reasoning behind why women are less effected but it's all in here: https://tmdocclusion.com/home/connection-to-other-diseases-and-syndromes/hair-loss/

Lately I have been periodically contracting my head muscles and can pull my hairline back and forward like 1.5 cm which is quite amusing. Reminds me of when I was a kid watching Steve Irwin mess with some monkeys that do the same thing trying to communicate with them lmao

 

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Posted : 09/03/2020 7:41 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@elwynn

Do you attribute this to mewing and chewing? 

 

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Posted : 09/03/2020 8:43 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@maxiller

The end of that article says
"Craniofacial development plays an important role in hair loss: indeed it is the real underlying cause that gives predisposition to baldness. Predisposition means that it is possible to see people with a poor craniofacial development and no signs of hair loss, but it is not possible to see bald people with a good craniofacial development. If spotting a bald person, you will be 100% sure that he has jaw problems to some extent."

What about Jeremy Meeks? (the "hot felon" viral mugshot)

He clearly has a receding hairline.

 

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Posted : 09/03/2020 9:00 pm
mformewing
New Member

@paperbag he does not, his head is shaven. he has a buzz cut

 

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Posted : 10/03/2020 9:09 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@mformewing

Look at the difference in density at the front vs. the top.

 

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Posted : 10/03/2020 12:09 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

It's possible to have good facial development and balding. It may be tied to blood circulation but I don't see how posture improvement can make hair grow better. Willing to have my mind changed. 

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Posted : 10/03/2020 5:36 pm
Elwynn liked
Elwynn
Estimable Member

I agree with Eddie, but I also think that a lack of circulation plays a big role in hairloss - it's an important factor, but not the only one. Besides, does good facial development by itself guarantee good scalp circulation, or just increase the chances of good scalp circulation (assuming that it even does this)?

Anyway, I think that a more immediate method of increasing circulation in the scalp is micro-needling. With tools like this, you can create tiny punctures in your scalp, which promote blood-flow. If it seems a bit out-there, know that it's fairly safe, and reasonably well-known within the "hairloss community".

24 years old

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Posted : 10/03/2020 6:30 pm
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