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I'm going to buy a Face Appliance and Palate Expander Online. I thought more of you would have done this!?  

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faceup
Active Member

Hey there,

I posted a thread yesterday about buying a palate expander from this website based in Germany:

https://www.bracesshop.net

I was originally thinking about buying this expander:  https://www.bracesshop.net/en/clear-retainers-and-fake-braces/32/palatinal-expander

https://imgur.com/a/dVZltuN

 

However, I think I am going to buy this 'Modified Stretching-Plate' instead. I think it's an expander too. I will have to definitely make sure before buying. 

https://imgur.com/a/BAsd6Jl

The reason why I might buy this instead is because it looks like it not only expands from the centre outwards, but also forward from the front of the palate and there's also two at the side, but I probably won't adjust them. I could be totally wrong though. Another reason why I might get this one is because of face pulling...

The guy from one of the original face pulling websites (http://jawpain-tmjtreatment.com), Plato pulled using an Ice Hockey helmet with rubber bands attached to the front of his braces for about 30 minutes a day I think.

https://imgur.com/a/RBNqefr

https://imgur.com/a/JGlbkUn

I thought I could do the same thing using this expander device with a similar helmet. But then I thought, why not look online for a head piece so I don't have to pull? Then I could wear it for hours and maybe even sleep in it. I saw that the website 'Alibaba' sell loads of face appliances, as well as low priced helmets if you'd rather use that instead. Many of the applicances are adjustable so you can make sure it's pulling up and forward instead of downwards like many of them do.

Here are some on Aliababa. You can also get them on Aliexpress. It's probably better to use Aliexpress is Alibaba as usually for buying things in bulk, but you can find some things where you can just buy one.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Dental-orthodontic-headgear-orthodontic-dental-supply_60156080966.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.61.78eb666cOPfhim

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Medical-Dental-Face-Mask-Orthodontic-Headgear_60663634632.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.343.78eb666cOPfhim

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Orthodontic-Face-Type-Dental-Face-Bow_60542278517.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.540.4e7d3d41ksdIWY

Has anyone here tried something like this yet? I know many have pulled with their thumbs and used things like belts and towels. Has anyone here actually used a helmet kind of device with an expander? 

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Posted : 13/12/2018 4:04 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

Of course people have tried this. You really should exercise the due diligence to read through past reports before you even consider such a plan. Sagittal expanders especially have the risk for significant side effects if you don't know what you're doing, and even the basic transverse expanders require adjustments to maintain the fit, otherwise they aren't really worth the expense to get a couple millimeters of expansion that can quickly relapse without stabilization. So read up to know what you're getting yourself into and please be careful!

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Posted : 13/12/2018 4:23 pm
Agendum liked
faceup
Active Member

Hey there,

Thanks for the reply! What kind of side effects are you talking about? I don't understand how using an expander to expand the palate can be dangerous if not rushed and done slowly. Wouldn't it just be like having your tongue up there expanding the palate? I'm sure Mike Mew just does the same stuff, right? Starts with expansion and then uses the face appliance to pull forward and up. I know he is a professional and knows what he is doing, but it really is just like keeping my tongue up there... I think.

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Posted : 13/12/2018 5:10 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: faceup

Hey there,

Thanks for the reply! What kind of side effects are you talking about? I don't understand how using an expander to expand the palate can be dangerous if not rushed and done slowly. Wouldn't it just be like having your tongue up there expanding the palate? I'm sure Mike Mew just does the same stuff, right? Starts with expansion and then uses the face appliance to pull forward and up. I know he is a professional and knows what he is doing, but it really is just like keeping my tongue up there... I think.

So the rate of expansion is one of the main variables you have to decide on and we've discussed in several threads how experts disagree about the best rate for adults. Dr. Mew says if you expand too slow you're more likely to get dental tipping rather than skeletal expansion. Besides dental tipping, other side effects can include root resorption, gum recession, mucosal ulcers, etc. I'm not saying that acrylic expanders have no utility, I'm just saying that you want to be sure you know what you're doing, have the skills to adjust the acrylic framework and the metal wires to maintain the fit throughout the process, and adjust your strategy when things go wrong. The vast majority of people without professional training probably shouldn't undertake this independently. Thankfully, for most people it's just a loss of money rather than teeth, because they just expand a few millimeters and the expander no longer fits well so they give up. I really don't want to dig up all the old threads for you, but here's Ronny Ead's cautionary case that shows some of the potential side effects that he experienced with a removable sagittal expander, even under professional supervision:

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/cautionary-palate-expander-case/#

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/12/2018 5:32 pm
MrMaxilla
Active Member

As Apollo mentioned, don't bother with expansion if you don't know what your doing. You could maybe do some sagital to tip the front teeth a little forward to bring the lower jaw forward a little. But facepulling should be cool. 60-90mins isnti going to do [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] though. Plato himself barely had any facial changes from face pulling. If you could wear it over night for 8hrs plus you might get something. Definitely use this  https://squareup.com/store/letsfaceit/item/bow

facepulling device. It's the best that I've seen you can get online.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 12:46 pm
Agendum liked
MrMaxilla
Active Member

As Apollo mentioned, don't bother with expansion if you don't know what your doing. You could maybe do some sagital to tip the front teeth a little forward to bring the lower jaw forward a little. But facepulling should be cool. 60-90mins isnti going to do [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] though. Plato himself barely had any facial changes from face pulling. If you could wear it over night for 8hrs plus you might get something. Definitely use this  https://squareup.com/store/letsfaceit/item/bow

facepulling device. It's the best that I've seen you can get online.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 12:46 pm
faceup
Active Member
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: faceup

Hey there,

Thanks for the reply! What kind of side effects are you talking about? I don't understand how using an expander to expand the palate can be dangerous if not rushed and done slowly. Wouldn't it just be like having your tongue up there expanding the palate? I'm sure Mike Mew just does the same stuff, right? Starts with expansion and then uses the face appliance to pull forward and up. I know he is a professional and knows what he is doing, but it really is just like keeping my tongue up there... I think.

So the rate of expansion is one of the main variables you have to decide on and we've discussed in several threads how experts disagree about the best rate for adults. Dr. Mew says if you expand too slow you're more likely to get dental tipping rather than skeletal expansion. Besides dental tipping, other side effects can include root resorption, gum recession, mucosal ulcers, etc. I'm not saying that acrylic expanders have no utility, I'm just saying that you want to be sure you know what you're doing, have the skills to adjust the acrylic framework and the metal wires to maintain the fit throughout the process, and adjust your strategy when things go wrong. The vast majority of people without professional training probably shouldn't undertake this independently. Thankfully, for most people it's just a loss of money rather than teeth, because they just expand a few millimeters and the expander no longer fits well so they give up. I really don't want to dig up all the old threads for you, but here's Ronny Ead's cautionary case that shows some of the potential side effects that he experienced with a removable sagittal expander, even under professional supervision:

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/cautionary-palate-expander-case/#

Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate it. Wow.. okay. That is very scary. I've seen many great before and after pictures with palate expansion but this.. this is pretty scary. If I was to buy an expander, it might be better going for the one that expands the back of the palate only ( https://www.bracesshop.net/en/clear-retainers-and-fake-braces/32/palatinal-expander) and not the 3-way one, like he used. I was originally thinking of buying the rear palate one anyway.

Or I might not buy any and just force myself to keep this tongue up there.

You are completely right. People need to be very careful.

Thank you so much.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 2:04 pm
faceup
Active Member
Posted by: MrMaxilla

As Apollo mentioned, don't bother with expansion if you don't know what your doing. You could maybe do some sagital to tip the front teeth a little forward to bring the lower jaw forward a little. But facepulling should be cool. 60-90mins isnti going to do [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] though. Plato himself barely had any facial changes from face pulling. If you could wear it over night for 8hrs plus you might get something. Definitely use this  https://squareup.com/store/letsfaceit/item/bow

facepulling device. It's the best that I've seen you can get online.

Thank you for the reply, man. I took a look at the face appliance you linked. Yes, it definitely looks better than the others I have seen. It's very expensive though! There must be a similar one for a lower price on websites like Alibaba on Aliexpress!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 2:07 pm
varbrah
Estimable Member

BOW is crap imo I do not recommend it

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 2:20 pm
letsgochamp
Active Member

@Varbrah

is it because the BOW is not as stable? I can see the lower leg of the BOW is mounted to the chest, and is subjected to the persons movement, which makes it less stable, I guess?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 3:19 pm
MrMaxilla
Active Member

Yes. Explainwhy the bow sucks, varbah.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 4:22 pm
faceup
Active Member

I have been reading your posts from your 'My Routine' thread, Apollo. I am going to go ahead and get an expander but I am going to be very careful. I only want to expand a little bit and then continue with my tongue. 

I can't decide between these two:

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/4/active-plate

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/1/y-plate-upper-jaw

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 4:42 pm
faceup
Active Member

https://www.semortho.com/article/S1073-8746(18)30009-4/pdf

Okay the thing that's putting me off buying an expander is the gaps between teeth after expanding. I don't understand how the gap closes up on it's own afterwards. It seems if I expand then a gap between the front two teeth is definitely going to be made. But the same thing will happen if I don't go with an expander and dedicate myself to using my tongue instead, because it's pretty much the same thing.

I used to think it was just the bone widening but now I understand that it separate in the middle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 5:33 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

What is your current intermolar width? Are you able to correctly posture your tongue? Here's one of the old posts where I debated with Allixa about the differences between those two types of expanders (  https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/palate-expansion-update-1/#post-1524 ).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 5:44 pm
faceup
Active Member
Posted by: Apollo

What is your current intermolar width? Are you able to correctly posture your tongue? Here's one of the old posts where I debated with Allixa about the differences between those two types of expanders (  https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/palate-expansion-update-1/#post-1524 ).

Intermolar width is something i've never actually tried measuring. I've just grabbed a tape measure now and I think it is about 36mm. I measured inside from left to right of the palate, so not over the teeth. I wore braces as a teenager. I'm sure I was fitted with an expander but I can't remember. No extractions thank god. My upper teeth are straight. Bottom ever so slightly crooked. When I smile, I can see up to my canines and bit of the first premolar. 

Maybe this is the better one?.. This is the one you got, right?

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/4/active-plate

Also, my main reason for wanting to expand the upper palate is because I don't think I have a good bite. The teeth on my left side don't go over the top of my lower teeth like my right teeth do. There's a slight space in between my upper and lower teeth on my left side.

That and I also want my cheekbones to widen.

This picture has always excited me:

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 6:26 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: faceup
 I also want my cheekbones to widen.
 
This picture has always excited me
 
Here's some additional information about that case:
ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2018 9:16 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: faceup
 
I've just grabbed a tape measure now and I think it is about 36mm.
That's a few millimeters wider than where I started and might be wide enough to get your tongue into position that progress could be possible with concerted effort. The basic Schwarz-style expander you linked to is like the one I used, although I made adjustments to it in stages to help it fit around my torus palatinus and focus the pressure in the area of my molars and premolars.
 
Posted by: faceup
 
Also, my main reason for wanting to expand the upper palate is because I don't think I have a good bite. The teeth on my left side don't go over the top of my lower teeth like my right teeth do. There's a slight space in between my upper and lower teeth on my left side.
 
One thing to keep in mind about the acrylic expanders is that they are rigid so they retain the relative position between the teeth. For example, the right side of my arch was more rounded and the left side went straighter back. Because the shape of the expander is fixed, it mostly maintained this discrepancy. I've been using the myobrace to help stabilize my expansion and it has improved the symmetry, making the right a little less rounded and the left a little more rounded so that they are much closer to mirror images. At your intermolar width of 36mm, you could consider using the large adult myobrace system (which is about 40mm wide at the level of the first molars) to get a few millimeters of expansion and improve the symmetry of your arches. Alternatively, you could try what I did and use the acrylic expander first and then use the myobrace to stabilize afterward.
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Posted : 14/12/2018 9:39 pm
faceup
Active Member

Thanks for your in depth replies, Apollo. I really appreciate them. I looked at the article about Michale Fetzik that's on the thread you linked.

http://www.happykansasfaces.com/uploads/2/9/2/7/29276427/cranio_uk_article.pdf

I noticed that she used a sagittal expander that only enhances the 'pre-maxilla' forwards. So she didn't have the usual one that widens the palate!? What is the reason for the 'pre-maxilla' one anyway? I'm not very knowledgeable about this so please forgive me.

These two in the braces shop has both the usual jaw expander in the middle and then pre-maxilla one she used:

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/1/y-plate-upper-jaw

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/23/modified-stretching-plate

Maybe the forward pre-maxilla one is important to bring the mouth further out instead of being back. I could be totally wrong. I have no-idea. I'm just guessing. I can imagine many gaps being created too.. which is scary.

Myobrace might be an option in the future, but I'm definitely going to try using one of these expanders first. I will be extremely careful though.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2018 10:17 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

The premaxilla or incisive bone is the anterior part of the maxilla, which bears the four upper incisors. All evidence suggests that the premaxillary suture fuses in adults, so sagittal expansion has to come from bone remodeling or from disarticulation of the circummaxillary sutures. This is in contrast to the midpalatal suture which doesn't fuse, so expansion in that direction can occur through a combination of suture separation and bone remodeling, although dental tipping is also a risk in that direction. Turning sagittal screws on these kinds of expanders might give you some minimal remodeling, but most of the effect will be tipping the front teeth forward and the back teeth back. If your upper incisors are retroclined, you might want to tip them forward, otherwise, it's probably counterproductive especially without professional supervision.

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Posted : 15/12/2018 4:12 pm
airleft
Active Member

@faceup

How did you move on?

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Posted : 07/11/2019 1:04 pm
airleft
Active Member

@apollo

Do you think AGGA does that kind of saggital expansion?

And if I look at a DNA appliance it looks just like the y-plate expander....

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Posted : 07/11/2019 1:05 pm
cliffbars
Active Member

@apollo Do you think if you filed/ shaved the part of the expanders that touched your teeth and made it so that the palate only came in contact with the palate, then the teeth would naturally position/ align symmetrically?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/07/2020 4:47 pm
cliffbars
Active Member

@apollo Also did you use all three stages of the myobrace to stabilize? Or just one phase like the A2? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/07/2020 4:51 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @cliffbars

@apollo Do you think if you filed/ shaved the part of the expanders that touched your teeth and made it so that the palate only came in contact with the palate, then the teeth would naturally position/ align symmetrically?

I don't think you could retain the fit if you filed away the contact with all teeth, but some of us have removed the acrylic behind the anterior teeth.
Posted by: @cliffbars

@apollo Also did you use all three stages of the myobrace to stabilize? Or just one phase like the A2? 

I used the A2 and A3, but skipped the A1 since I didn't have significant crowding/alignment issues.

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Posted : 14/07/2020 9:37 pm
Agendum liked
cliffbars
Active Member

@apollo Sorry for all the questions but do you think once expanded enough with the Schwarz, solely mewing and ditching the expander would eventually let the slight asymmetries in the arches to even out?

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Posted : 14/07/2020 11:00 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @cliffbars

@apollo Sorry for all the questions but do you think once expanded enough with the Schwarz, solely mewing and ditching the expander would eventually let the slight asymmetries in the arches to even out?

Your mileage may vary, but I'm pretty skeptical about the potential benefits from a removable expander in adults, especially for self treatment. I think the rationale for many people is jump starting their tongue posture by eking out a few millimeters of space. So maybe in an ideal situation, if the expander gives you enough room to habituate good tongue posture, maybe it would help you retain some of the expansion and improve symmetry. I think my tongue posture did improve from using the expander, but I think the myobrace did more to improve the symmetry of my arch shape, and much of my expansion relapsed. Maybe you'd have more luck if your posture is better than mine. So generally, I'd encourage you to temper your expectations and be careful of the risks.

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Posted : 15/07/2020 11:44 am
cliffbars
Active Member

@apollo


I turned 17 in March. I believe my palate is too narrow to fit my whole tongue. I am considering getting the y expander and only expanding the sides not the front. At what rate do you recommend I crank it?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/07/2020 12:17 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @cliffbars

At what rate do you recommend I crank it?

I advanced 1 1/4mm turn every 2-5 days depending how tight it felt. You might be able to keep to the faster end of that range since you're younger than I am. Please be careful and listen to your body!

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Posted : 15/07/2020 2:37 pm
cliffbars
Active Member

@apollo Will do, also what do people mean when they mention their palate dropping?

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Posted : 15/07/2020 10:22 pm
vt1 liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @cliffbars

@apollo Will do, also what do people mean when they mention their palate dropping?

The palate flattens out or becomes less vaulted through bone bending/remodeling as you expand such that the alveolar ridge isn't as steep and there is less distance between the roof of the mouth and the occlusal plane. We're talking about a small change of maybe a few millimeters, but it requires adjustments to the acrylic framework to maintain the fit of the expander so that it doesn't slide down and concentrate pressure on the teeth resulting in more dental tipping. Anecdotally, this seems to start becoming an issue around 3mm of expansion. The skill required to get the adjustments right is just one of the reasons that self-treatment is not advisable. I think this change in shape is further evidence that at least the majority (if not all) of the expansion using removable appliances in adults occurs through bending/remodeling and teeth tilting rather than actual skeletal separation/growth at the midpalatal suture.

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Posted : 16/07/2020 12:29 pm
vt1 liked
cliffbars
Active Member

@apollo Oh I see what you mean. So in a sense it is like stretching the already existing to bone to "expand" the palate causing it to flatten to accommodate a wider orientation. However in younger children it is more likely to be actual palatal expansion which actually expands and creates new bone through the suture. When do you think the window closes for the actual expansion of the palate?

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Posted : 16/07/2020 3:55 pm
vt1
 vt1
New Member

@apollo

Your posts on this forum are instructive and useful and I'd like to thank you for sharing your experience.

Out of interest, when it comes to reshaping the expander to fit the flattening palate, I've seen others, and yourself, mention filling parts of it down, and this seems self-explanatory, but do you consider there to be additional suitable modifications?

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Posted : 08/09/2020 5:49 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @vt1

@apollo

Your posts on this forum are instructive and useful and I'd like to thank you for sharing your experience.

Out of interest, when it comes to reshaping the expander to fit the flattening palate, I've seen others, and yourself, mention filling parts of it down, and this seems self-explanatory, but do you consider there to be additional suitable modifications?

I want to start with the disclaimer that the risk of self-treatment really isn't worth the limited benefit. If you decide to proceed, there are threads where we discussed strategies to file down the top of an expander to maintain fit as the palate become less vaulted, filing off whole sections of the expander to limit dental movement of the front teeth, and adjusting the lip bow to avoid pressure on the incisors. I've heard of people somehow adding attachment points into the acrylic for protraction other than the existing wires, but that is beyond my DIY skills. Those are the only modifications that I'm familiar with.

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Posted : 10/09/2020 2:10 pm
vt1 liked
vt1
 vt1
New Member

As an update to this, after more experience with the y-expander, it seems the ideal way to use it is for sideways expansion while wearing it at night and maybe sometimes during the day - and the rest of the time, aggressive forward and upward pressure by the tongue (including chin tucks etc), focused on the alveolar ridge to begin with I guess. If mewing is done effectively, the saggital screw must be turned, otherwise the device will start pulling in your front teeth.

However, the saggital expander must follow natural expansion, never drive it. I believe the forward tooth tipping problems people are getting must be caused by using the Y-expander as a replacement for natural tongue posture / forward mewing. In my experience, when forward growth has outpaced the expander, it will start to become uncomfortable at the canines, but I'm not 100% sure so far.

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Posted : 10/10/2020 4:24 pm