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I have been applying long sessions of upwards force with my tongue and I am beginning to think that it can be a very bad thing to do too much of and that it possibly even can be bad to do in general.  

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test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member

Hello fellow posture enthusiasts.

I am a 30 year old man that started applying tongue contact against the roof of the mouth about 9,5 months ago after having lived most of my life with lacking oral posture. I have been applying a constant upwards force (and therefore also a forwards force since the front part of my tongue has pushed against the sloping part of the hard palate), usually a light force, with my tongue against the roof of the mouth for very long sessions during the days. It became a habit that I learnt to do automatically. I have probably spent more time in such a state than in a state where my tongue just rests against the roof of the mouth with no upwards force being applied except for during swallowing. The latter has obviously been the case during sleep. In addition to this I have also been resting my head in a chin-tuk position for large parts of the days. I did not do this in the beginning though, perhaps that is why I did not see as much up-swing development then as I later believe I have seen.

Based on my results from doing what I have done (which I explain in some detail in a post at the orthotropics subreddit, linked to below in this comment) I want to warn people about applying periods of constant light upwards force with the tongue against the roof of the mouth. It clearly can change things relatively fast, people need to be aware of this. Today not sure if what I have done has been good or not. I am still changing though. To my knowledge doctors talking about tongue posture, such as Mike Mew, mean that the tongue is supposed to rest against the roof of the mouth while only pushing upwards during the swallowing process. Mike talks about creating a "suction hold" for the tongue in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6h3-wsqLNA

I have picked up on how other people have been doing similar things to me, applying force upwards in sessions. Therefore, and since I have been doing this a whole lot for 9,5 months now, I feel the urge to warn others in that it potentially could be a very bad thing to do. It certainly is a very unnatural thing to do.

I am very brief here since I just wrote a very long post about this where I describe my change and thoughts in more detail at the orthotropics subreddit. For anyone interested, here is the link:  https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/8k2yu2/warning_i_have_been_applying_long_sessions_of/

I also want to ask: Has anyone here done something similar to what I have been doing for an extended amount of time? If so, what has your experience been

EDIT: It seems to me that the development I have seen mostly has consisted of bone growth and not bone remodeling. My face has gotten larger but not shorter and I keep thinking that I have messed up in a major way. Perhaps I would have seen the same thing had I mewed without force? Perhaps not. I do not know. But adults starting to mew should be warned.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 5:29 am
Allixa
(@allixa)
Estimable Member

I tried reading through some of your Reddit posts to better understand you situation but I am having trouble figuring out exactly what the negative changes were that you are experiencing.

Can you list here, briefly, what negative changes you saw from 'hard mewing' as we call it? Would you be willing to provide photos (to rule out biases)?

There are many variables to consider when a person mews. Pushing up hard can be a negative if your tongue doesn't properly fit onto your palate or if it overpowers your jaw muscles (leading to teeth separation).

Can you be specific but brief and help us understand your situation more clearly?

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Posted : 17/05/2018 5:55 am test151515 liked
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: test151515

Hello fellow posture enthusiasts.

I am a 30 year old man that started applying tongue contact against the roof of the mouth about 9,5 months ago after having lived most of my life with lacking oral posture. I have been applying a constant upwards force (usually a light force) with my tongue against the roof of the mouth, for very long sessions during the days. It became a habit that I learnt to do automatically. I have probably spent more time in such a state than in a state where my tongue just rests against the roof of the mouth with no upwards force being applied except for during swallowing. The latter has obviously been the case during sleep. In addition to this I have also been resting my head in a chin-tuk position for large parts of the days.

Based on my results from doing what I have done (which I explain in some detail in a post at the orthotropics subreddit, linked to below in this comment) I want to warn people about applying periods of constant light upwards force with the tongue against the roof of the mouth. To my knowledge doctors talking about tongue posture, such as Mike Mew, mean that the tongue is supposed to rest against the roof of the mouth while only pushing upwards during the swallowing process. Mike talks about creating a "suction hold" for the tongue in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6h3-wsqLNA

I have picked up on how other people have been doing similar things to me, applying force upwards in sessions. Therefore, and since I have been doing this a whole lot for 9,5 months now, I feel the urge to warn others in that it potentially could be a very bad thing to do. It certainly is a very unnatural thing to do.

I am very brief here since I just wrote a very long post about this where I describe my change and thoughts in more detail at the orthotropics subreddit. For anyone interested, here is the link:  https://www.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/8k2yu2/warning_i_have_been_applying_long_sessions_of/

I also want to ask: Has anyone here done something similar to what I have been doing for an extended amount of time? If so, what has your experience been?

So why is it bad again 

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Posted : 17/05/2018 6:37 am test151515 liked
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member

I can provide photos to certain individuals that ask for it. If you PM me an email I will share it with you. I have already shared photos with about 10-12 people online. The problem is that I have not relied on standardized ways of taking my photos. I have used the same camera and about the same distance, but certain changes in angle and light factor in. Especially given that I unfortunately have relied on selfies taken with my mobile camera which distorts the picture quite a bit. Even the tiniest changes in angle seem to matter a lot when taking pictures at a very close distance.

Google how distance and camera lens impacts the image by distortion if you want to learn more about it. Today I have started taking pictures in different ways, but as for before pictures the only ones that show my face from the front and that are not in a group photo from a larger distance are a few pictures taken by myself with my mobile phone at close distance.

Given how much the aesthetic result of a photo varies based on the factors mentioned above I can easily tell when a photo is a more flattering photo or a less flattering photo of me. However, it is still hard for me to select equally flattering photos when I compare and it is easy for me to be biased in my picture selection. If so then there perhaps it is not surprising that the people I have shared pictures with seem to have been inspired by my change as opposed to react negatively to it. For the comparisons I have shared I have tried my very best to compare photos taken with the same conditions, but like explained above I am not sure what the case actually has been.

Another reason as for why it is hard for me to get a good grasp of whether I actually have improved or not is because I simply have changed in many ways. I look different. One person said that it looked as if it was me and my brother for the before and after (this person must have exaggerated quite a bit though). Different as in better or different as in worse, or perhaps as in different but with certain things being better while certain things are worse and where the totality is that I don't look neither better nor worse but just different? This particular person thought that I looked significantly better. However, we were both quite emotional about our journeys and we were clearly cheering each other one, possibly both being biased. We might also both have assumed that it must be for the better given that the maxilla has expanded. Well, perhaps there is such a thing as maxilla expansion done wrong even when the outcome is not asymmetrical.

It certainly has expanded, but today I believe that I might have seen a lot more bone growth than what would have been desired in my case. I speculate that the regular mewing process probably should result in mostly bone remodeling and bone movement and this is probably what most people (including me) need to improve their situation, not the same but with unnecessarily added bone growth. The FAGGA appliance causes bone growth by a constant force against a spot in the hard palate, so I don't see why the tongue could not do the same to a certain degree. Perhaps more areas are affected by the tongue given that it pushes against a very large area. As for myself I have even seen changes for my nose and my forehead.

As for my perceived negatives I should mention that none of them include anything teeth related. My dental arches clearly are better looking today than when I started. My upper dental arch was very V-shaped once I started. Today it is less V-shaped and more U-shaped. My bites match perfectly, just like they did before I started the process.

Briefly this is what I am worrying about right now:
- My chin now looks less defined given how my soft tissue now surrounds it differently, read more about my thoughts on this matter in the post I linked to above. I speculate that this to a certain degree could be a result of my posture having changed faster than my bone structure. So perhaps it could improve if I keep changing.
-My face is a lot fuller by the increased zygo and cheekbone protrution, at the same time it is not more defined despite my body fat not having changed. It looks more swollen. One would think that with a larger maxilla and more protruding cheekbones there would be more definition given a higher ratio of bone mass compared to soft tissue. Yet this has not been my experience thus far.
-My zygomatic bones and my frontal cheekbones are now protruding a lot more but like explained above, not necessarily in a good way. If the face looks more swollen but not more defined, then that is perhaps not for the better.
-My forehead has changed, it is now larger. My hairline now sits slightly higher because of it. My upper skull used to have a clear bump between the anterior part of it and the posterior part of it. My posterior part was higher than my anterior part. This bump is today a lot less pronounced, almost gone entirely. It seems clear to me that the anterior part of my upper skull has moved or grown (or a combination of the two) up and forwards (which I am certain that my maxilla has done as well to a certain degree).
-My face has seemingly not shortened in a significant way while all these other changes have taken place. I have measured a very small change in decreased distance between my lips to my pupils but it certainly does not at all stand out compared to all the other major changes that have taken place. At the same time, my face was perhaps not that much elongated to begin with. My maxilla was much more underdeveloped than it was downswung. My ratio between the distance from midline of my lips (where upper lip meats lower lip) to my pupils and the distance between my pupils is today about 1.0. So perhaps I should not expect any facial shortening even if things would develop ideally. It is hard for me to figure out these things. I should mention that despite the fact that my forehead has been raised a bit the distance from chin to hairline seems to have been unchanged and not gotten longer. I suppose this is a positive sign though, suggesting that the entire front part of my skull might have been moved upwards.

There are more things I worry about but I suppose this is what mostly has been on my mind lately regarding my changes. I speculate that I perhaps have changed too fast and that even if I might have improved in certain ways, perhaps I could have seen better development had I just mewed regularly.

I will probably take some new pictures for comparison soon. One problem is that I have no good before pictures to compare with aside from pictures taken at close distance by my mobile phone. Therefore comparisons where I use newly taken pictures in the same way might be the most reliable for comparisons even though they are quite bad to rely on in general.

It of course is possible that I am wrong in my worries. At the same time, the fact that I am on the fence about it surely must be seen as a red flag. Like mentioned earlier no doctor has ever mentioned constant upwards light force for longer periods. I started doing it as a way to strengthen my tongue and practice tongue posture and as I saw expansion I just kept doing it thinking that it must be for the better. However, surely it is a very unnatural thing to be doing so perhaps the result from it will never be desirable. On the other hand, perhaps what has happened in me is what would have happened had I just mewed regularly, but slower. I can only guess.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 6:41 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

I see stories like this regarding hard mewing more often than not. Maybe not exactly like yours but it seems many proponents of hard mewing are dissatisfied .

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Posted : 17/05/2018 7:02 am test151515 liked
Allixa
(@allixa)
Estimable Member

I am glad that your teeth are doing better than ever. That's a concrete positive.

As for constant upward force being good or bad, I think as adults we have to use some type of force in order to make up for all the mewing we didn't do while younger. There have been many success stories on this forum of people using hard mewing with great results. In the success story thread check out Jamo's results. He did what you did and made great changes.

But yes, there could be reasons why your worries are legitimate.

The more swollen face is something that I dealt with, but it was caused by chewing gum improperly. Do you only mew or do you chew gum as well? If so do you chew with your mouth closed or open?

When you mew hard do you overpower your jaw or do your teeth stay together? Can you remember all the way back to when you started (not just how you do it now)?

I'd have to see pictures to say anything for sure, but for now these questions are worth considering.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 7:09 am test151515 liked
Allixa
(@allixa)
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

I see stories like this regarding hard mewing more often than not. Maybe not exactly like yours but it seems many proponents of hard mewing are dissatisfied .

It's probably true that whenever you use more force to do something, there is a higher chance of something going wrong. I've read stories of people making their palates more vaulted by pushing up too hard with the tongue.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 7:11 am test151515 liked
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member
Posted by: Allixa

I am glad that your teeth are doing better than ever. That's a concrete positive.

As for constant upward force being good or bad, I think as adults we have to use some type of force in order to make up for all the mewing we didn't do while younger. There have been many success stories on this forum of people using hard mewing with great results. In the success story thread check out Jamo's results. He did what you did and made great changes.

But yes, there could be reasons why your worries are legitimate.

The more swollen face is something that I dealt with, but it was caused by chewing gum improperly. Do you only mew or do you chew gum as well? If so do you chew with your mouth closed or open?

When you mew hard do you overpower your jaw or do your teeth stay together? Can you remember all the way back to when you started (not just how you do it now)?

I'd have to see pictures to say anything for sure, but for now these questions are worth considering.

Interesting to see that Jamo seems to have done something very similar to what I have done. He seems to have improved significantly. At the same time, I can tell that he in the two provided after photos are not positioning his head in an ideal head position. That combined with taking the photos a bit from above will result in a more defined looking jawline. His before photos are not taken in equally flattering conditions given the angles and his head positioning. Still though, he has changed so much that it seems evident that he has done so in a good way regardless of a problematic before and after comparison. I suppose I should see this as a good sign. At the same time, just because it may have worked for one person might not mean it will work for others. Also, I wonder what happened if he kept doing it. Did he decide to stop pushing upwards at a certain point? If so, when? I would love to be able to ask him these type of questions. Perhaps what he and I have done can be beneficial if just not overdone.. Then again, perhaps it is not a good thing to be doing compared to regular mewing to being with.

As for chewing I have actually not done it a lot during the entire process. I chewed more than I usually did when it came to the foods I ate during the first 3 months or so, but after that I went back to chewing less again aside from using a "jawzrsize" masseter training ball during a shorter time period. I am actually back to using it now since it hit me that I have let my masseters shrink quite a bit. I stopped focusing that much on my masseters once I realized that the process was ongoing at seemingly unchanged speed regardless if I chewed more or less.

When using the jawzrsize ball the mouth is open while chewing. Another good thing about it is that it can be used for only 20 minutes a day or so while still building up the masseters very efficiently. It does not involve any chewing though, only the incisors squeezing a ball together up and down. As for closed mouth chewing, I can't imagine me having done this a lot. I believe I naturally apply open mouth chewing and that I always have done so in my life. Please explain briefly how this may factor in if you don't mind. Open mouth chewing is what you are advocating right?

I have a mandible that is fully grown in regards to bone mass. Am I missing out on something by not chewing a lot? Does the chewing provide some type of stimuli that is important for the process even in adults that have fully grown mandibles? I figured that for adults where the mandible already is fully grown chewing should only really be necessary for developing the masseters during the mewing process. My mandible is by no means undergrown so I have no reason to grow it further, only to remodel/relocate it further. As for my maxilla it seemingly has grown at the same rate regardless of whether I have chewed more or less. And since my lower dental arch always have followed my upper dental arch I figured that that part of the process seemed to go well as well regardless of my amount of chewing.

Mike Mew has explained that in most cases of somewhat recessed chins it is not a question of lacking bone mass but that it is a question of the mandible pointing downwards more than it should and as such being set back. Of course there are cases where the mandible itself lacks bone mass though, but my understanding is that that usually is not the problem in adults with somewhat recessed chins.

I have probably spent way more time mewing regularly/mewing with force with my teeth not making contact, resting in near contact but with my lips sealed, compared to doing so whit them making contact. I have thought a lot about teeth to teeth contact during the process though so I have not let my teeth not make contact for longer periods. Even in the beginnined I forced myself to rest them together quite a bit even though it was harder back then given that I had so little tongue space. I make better teeth to teeth contact lately since it has became a lot easier for me to rest my teeth in light contact while mewing now that I have more room for my tongue.

John Mew explained in a video that the teeth should rest in light contact or in near to light contact. This I have followed throughout the entire process, with my lips obviously being sealed at all times. I speculate that it is more important to rest the tongue in the roof of the mouth than it is to keep the teeth in light contact. And as for adults that want to change obviously the tongue is what must drive the process (but perhaps not by any added force but just by simply making contact).

If you PM me an email adress I can send you some comparisons. I will go away for now but I will probably check back in here fairly soon again.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 7:53 am alfio liked
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member
Posted by: narrowjawMF

use the word "unnatural" as an argument in itself. opinion discarded.

Well ideally people are supposed to develop their jaws and their faces in a natural way early on in their lives by sufficient chewing and by sufficient tongue and teeth contact.

Perhaps for a person that has not developed optimally something unnatural is necessary to change it. At the same time, perhaps it is not necessary. Mike Mew theorizes that regular mewing, which constitutes the natural things mentioned above, possibly could achieve a positive change over time even in adults.

I am speculating that the reason why I am unsure about whether I have improved or not might have to do with the fact that I have done something very unnatural that might have resulted in unnecessary bone growth as opposed to mostly remodeling/bone movement. Obviously I really hope that this is not the case. At the same time, I feel obligated to share my worries about it so that more people can be warned about it.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 8:29 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

I think the "fullness" you are seeing is probably due to the following factors:

  • A wider face due to palatal expansion pushing the zygos out
  • Increase facial width to height ratio 
  • Decreased midface length
  • Masseter hypertrophy 

When you combine these factors along with the fact you may have been used to seeing a more narrow version of your face, the changes may seem unflattering. But I think this has more to do with perception than negative consequences  

 

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Posted : 17/05/2018 9:10 am test151515 liked
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

I think the "fullness" you are seeing is probably due to the following factors:

  • A wider face due to palatal expansion pushing the zygos out
  • Increase facial width to height ratio 
  • Decreased midface length
  • Masseter hypertrophy 

When you combine these factors along with the fact you may have been used to seeing a more narrow version of your face, the changes may seem unflattering. But I think this has more to do with perception than negative consequences  

 

All these things have indeed taken place in me, possibly except for decreased midface leantgh. I have measured a very small decrease in midface leantgh based on many comparisons. However, it could still me the result of faulty measuring of me given how small of a change we are talking about. I think it is accurate though. At the same time, like mentioned above my midface might actually already be about as compressed as it should be. So this was perhaps not something that I should have expected to see change regardless. My understanding is that a maxilla can swing-up despite it becoming shorther.

Perhaps it is really the less defined looking chin that makes me think my face might be worse off now compared to before. I am hoping this will improve if I continue to change which among other things hopefully should result in my mandible coming forwards more, stretching the soft tissue out more. However, nowadays I am trying to just rest my tongue in the roof of the mouth as opposed to pushing it up there given my concerns about it. Since I got so used to it it might take some time before I go an entire day without doing any forced upwards pushing at all.

If I temporally position my head in a more forwards position my chin and mandible obviously becomes more defined. However, this is not what I want to do now as I am applying chin tuk mode for as much of the days as I can. My hope is that eventually can reach a point where my mandible will protrude enough for it to be well defined even when I am applying really good head posture. Whether that will happen or not I do not know and that is why I am currently concerned about my current state.

Other things than my less defined chin also contribute to my worries though. Since I am not certain of whether I have improved despite having changed so much in just 9,5 months I see it as a red flag. Therefore I feel obligated to warn people about it possibly being bad to mew with force as an adult, even if the starting position is a somewhat symmetrical face with matching dental arches.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2018 9:29 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: test151515
Posted by: EddieMoney

I think the "fullness" you are seeing is probably due to the following factors:

  • A wider face due to palatal expansion pushing the zygos out
  • Increase facial width to height ratio 
  • Decreased midface length
  • Masseter hypertrophy 

When you combine these factors along with the fact you may have been used to seeing a more narrow version of your face, the changes may seem unflattering. But I think this has more to do with perception than negative consequences  

 

All these things have indeed taken place in me, possibly except for decreased midface leantgh. I have measured a very small decrease in midface leantgh based on many comparisons. However, it could still me the result of faulty measuring of me given how small of a change we are talking about. I think it is accurate though. At the same time, like mentioned above my midface might actually already be about as compressed as it should be. So this was perhaps not something that I should have expected to see change regardless.

Better formed dental arches with more room for my tongue, wider and more forwards zygomatic bones and a broader looking face in general. The biggest complaint I had about my face once I learnt about this whole thing about 10 months ago was that it was narrow. So one would think this would all be for the better indeed. Perhaps it is really the less defined looking chin that makes me think my face might be worse off now compared to before. I am hoping this will improve if I continue to change which among other things hopefully should result in my mandible coming forwards more, stretching the soft tissue out more. However, nowadays I am trying to just rest my tongue in the roof of the mouth as opposed to pushing it up there given my concerns about it. Since I got so used to it it might take some time before I go an entire day without doing any forced upwards pushing at all.

If I position my heads in a more forwards position my mandible becomes more defined. However, this is not what I want to do now as I am applying chin tuk mode for as much of the days as I can.

Chin tucks for me have the most difference in chin projection. Fixing forward head posture has allowed my mandible to sit inside my maxilla the correct way, so my chin protrudes more due to the fact chin tucks forced your mandible a millimeter or so forward. Forward head posture is the worst thing for chin definition, maybe worse than improper tongue posture. 

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Posted : 17/05/2018 9:47 am
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: test151515
Posted by: EddieMoney

I think the "fullness" you are seeing is probably due to the following factors:

  • A wider face due to palatal expansion pushing the zygos out
  • Increase facial width to height ratio 
  • Decreased midface length
  • Masseter hypertrophy 

When you combine these factors along with the fact you may have been used to seeing a more narrow version of your face, the changes may seem unflattering. But I think this has more to do with perception than negative consequences  

 

All these things have indeed taken place in me, possibly except for decreased midface leantgh. I have measured a very small decrease in midface leantgh based on many comparisons. However, it could still me the result of faulty measuring of me given how small of a change we are talking about. I think it is accurate though. At the same time, like mentioned above my midface might actually already be about as compressed as it should be. So this was perhaps not something that I should have expected to see change regardless.

Better formed dental arches with more room for my tongue, wider and more forwards zygomatic bones and a broader looking face in general. The biggest complaint I had about my face once I learnt about this whole thing about 10 months ago was that it was narrow. So one would think this would all be for the better indeed. Perhaps it is really the less defined looking chin that makes me think my face might be worse off now compared to before. I am hoping this will improve if I continue to change which among other things hopefully should result in my mandible coming forwards more, stretching the soft tissue out more. However, nowadays I am trying to just rest my tongue in the roof of the mouth as opposed to pushing it up there given my concerns about it. Since I got so used to it it might take some time before I go an entire day without doing any forced upwards pushing at all.

If I position my heads in a more forwards position my mandible becomes more defined. However, this is not what I want to do now as I am applying chin tuk mode for as much of the days as I can.

Chin tucks for me have the most difference in chin projection. Fixing forward head posture has allowed my mandible to sit inside my maxilla the correct way, so my chin protrudes more due to the fact chin tucks forced your mandible a millimeter or so forward. Forward head posture is the worst thing for chin definition, maybe worse than improper tongue posture. 

Yes, like written above I apply chin tuk as often as I can for this very reason. My point is that given that I have adopted this new change in head posture I have changed my posture faster than my bone structure has changed. By permanently applying a better head posture even when I'm not applying chin tuk, for example as I walk around among people (a posture much closer to the chin tuk posture than my previous forwards head posture) or as I take pictures of myself, the mandible will obviously look less defined as it is being placed more inwards from the better head positioning compared to before (even though it slowly is moving forwards over time, or at least so I hope). Obviously you must notice how your jaw temporally looks a lot less defined in the very moment you apply chin tuk. The skin and fat clumps up beneath your chin etc which pushes on other soft tissue and as a result your chin looks less defined in that moment.

My point was that I can, if I want to give the appearance of a more defined jaw, choose to position my head a bit more forwards again, for example as I take pictures of myself. That obviously makes my chin look a lot more defined compared to when I have it closer to chin tuk position.

What I am hoping for is that I eventually will reach a point where I can have my head positioned in a good position, close to chin tuk position, and where my mandible still will protrude forwards. That is the telltale of a well developed face after all. Whether this is feasible or not in adults by mewing regularly combined with chin tuk (if it isn't already considered a part of regular mewing, I actually believe it is given that Mike Mew talks so much about it) I do not know. It is unfortunate that people from the success stories have not talked about this. Perhaps such a point is not feasible to reach by adults with already developed skulls. That is one reason as for why I am concerned about my current state. I certainly hope such a point can be reached over time though.

However, whether this is the entire part of the explanation for my currently less defined looking chin I do not know.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/05/2018 9:54 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: test151515
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: test151515
Posted by: EddieMoney

I think the "fullness" you are seeing is probably due to the following factors:

  • A wider face due to palatal expansion pushing the zygos out
  • Increase facial width to height ratio 
  • Decreased midface length
  • Masseter hypertrophy 

When you combine these factors along with the fact you may have been used to seeing a more narrow version of your face, the changes may seem unflattering. But I think this has more to do with perception than negative consequences  

 

All these things have indeed taken place in me, possibly except for decreased midface leantgh. I have measured a very small decrease in midface leantgh based on many comparisons. However, it could still me the result of faulty measuring of me given how small of a change we are talking about. I think it is accurate though. At the same time, like mentioned above my midface might actually already be about as compressed as it should be. So this was perhaps not something that I should have expected to see change regardless.

Better formed dental arches with more room for my tongue, wider and more forwards zygomatic bones and a broader looking face in general. The biggest complaint I had about my face once I learnt about this whole thing about 10 months ago was that it was narrow. So one would think this would all be for the better indeed. Perhaps it is really the less defined looking chin that makes me think my face might be worse off now compared to before. I am hoping this will improve if I continue to change which among other things hopefully should result in my mandible coming forwards more, stretching the soft tissue out more. However, nowadays I am trying to just rest my tongue in the roof of the mouth as opposed to pushing it up there given my concerns about it. Since I got so used to it it might take some time before I go an entire day without doing any forced upwards pushing at all.

If I position my heads in a more forwards position my mandible becomes more defined. However, this is not what I want to do now as I am applying chin tuk mode for as much of the days as I can.

Chin tucks for me have the most difference in chin projection. Fixing forward head posture has allowed my mandible to sit inside my maxilla the correct way, so my chin protrudes more due to the fact chin tucks forced your mandible a millimeter or so forward. Forward head posture is the worst thing for chin definition, maybe worse than improper tongue posture. 

Yes, like written above I apply chin tuk as often as I can for this very reason. My point is that given that I have adopted this new change in head posture I have changed my posture faster than my bone structure has changed. By permanently applying a better head posture even when I'm not applying chin tuk, for example as I walk around among people (a posture much closer to the chin tuk posture than my previous forwards head posture) or as I take pictures of myself, the mandible will obviously look less defined as it is being placed more inwards from the better head positioning compared to before (even though it slowly is moving forwards over time, or at least so I hope). Obviously you must notice how your jaw temporally looks a lot less defined in the very moment you apply chin tuk. The skin and fat clumps up beneath your chin etc which pushes on other soft tissue and as a result your chin looks less defined in that moment.

My point was that I can, if I want to give the appearance of a more defined jaw, choose to position my head a bit more forwards again, for example as I take pictures of myself. That obviously makes my chin look a lot more defined compared to when I have it closer to chin tuk position.

What I am hoping for is that I eventually will reach a point where I can have my head positioned in a good position, close to chin tuk position, and where my mandible still will protrude forwards. That is the telltale of a well developed face after all. Whether this is feasible or not in adults by mewing regularly combined with chin tuk (if it isn't already considered a part of regular mewing, I actually believe it is given that Mike Mew talks so much about it) I do not know. It is unfortunate that people from the success stories have not talked about this. Perhaps such a point is not feasible to reach by adults with already developed skulls. That is one reason as for why I am concerned about my current state. I certainly hope such a point can be reached over time though.

However, whether this is the entire part of the explanation for my currently less defined looking chin I do not know.

Bone remodeling is definitely possible in adults if you meander to the FAGGA thread.

I think you just are in a transitional stage to be honest

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Posted : 17/05/2018 11:14 am test151515 liked
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member

@EddieMoney

What I am worrying about is if the constant tongue pushing somehow might provide some kind of stimuli for additional bone growth combined with bone remodeling and bone movement. Essentially what I am worrying might have happened in me is that I have seen more additional bone growth that I have seen bone remodeling/movement. And also, whether this bone growth has been a good kind of bone growth or a bad one. At the same time, I do not know anything for certain. Perhaps it turns out once doctors know more about this process in adults, that no bone growth is taking place at all and that only bone remodeling and bone movement is happening. Based on my own change I suspect that this is not the case though.

"I think you just are in a transitional stage to be honest". That is what I am hoping as well. Where I am right now has me concerned though since I do not know how much change I can expect going forwards.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 11:29 am
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator

What is your posture like? Is your cervical spine straight as an arrow? Hard mewing in a non-ideal posture can lead to chronic tension along the neck and shoulders, and chronic tension can restrict the movement of certain bones of the skull. When only portions of the skull are allowed to adapt to the force you are applying, the result could possibly be more akin to shifting from one kind of imbalance to another, rather than to a universally improved state of anatomical balance.

When sufficiently proper spinal alignment is found (and sufficiently high head height/neck length reached), the skull starts to readjust almost effortlessly by simply maintaining the head in that position. It can be a hard posture to learn, because first you have to fight to reach it, and then you have to learn to relax in it. Mckenzie chin tuck is a good start, but fundamentally chin tuck is  a whole-spine tuck. The torso has to be vacuumed in all the way against the hips, spine and the skull. All the tension of the musculature should revolve around the spine, in your hips, in your neck, in your back etc. Think of a visualization of a magnetic field.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 11:47 am test151515 liked
Skull
(@skull)
Trusted Member

Hey man,  I would like to see your current pictures, preferable from the front and from the profile. Hopefully your 'issues' are transitional as you may have rushed the process somehow

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Posted : 17/05/2018 1:01 pm
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member
Posted by: Progress

What is your posture like? Is your cervical spine straight as an arrow? Hard mewing in a non-ideal posture can lead to chronic tension along the neck and shoulders, and chronic tension can restrict the movement of certain bones of the skull. When only portions of the skull are allowed to adapt to the force you are applying, the result could possibly be more akin to shifting from one kind of imbalance to another, rather than to a universally improved state of anatomical balance.

When sufficiently proper spinal alignment is found (and sufficiently high head height/neck length reached), the skull starts to readjust almost effortlessly by simply maintaining the head in that position. It can be a hard posture to learn, because first you have to fight to reach it, and then you have to learn to relax in it. Mckenzie chin tuck is a good start, but fundamentally chin tuck is  a whole-spine tuck. The torso has to be vacuumed in all the way against the hips, spine and the skull. All the tension of the musculature should revolve around the spine, in your hips, in your neck, in your back etc. Think of a visualization of a magnetic field.

Thanks a lot for the info. I have been improving my over all body posture and I would say that it is fairly good as of right now. I don't think I had much issues with my posture before I started aside from my terrible forwards head posture. I do not think I have issues with my cervical spine but whether it is straight as an arrow I do not know. I notice that if I try to stretch as tall as possible in pictures I can naturally tend to not position my spine in a straight arrow. At the same time, If I stand in front of a mirror where I can see myself I can with ease stand really tall with a seemingly completely straight cervical spine and probably also with a pretty straight spine.

I should mention that I have gained some slight height since I started. I used to measure 187,3 cm at most right after I woke up before I started. I measured 187,7 cm as my new max about 1,5 months ago. I know that my first measurement of 187,3 was my absolute max before I started, possibly even with some tiny added height (like 1 mm) from a possible inaccurate measurement, since it was the max height out of many attempts of measuring it where I desperately tried to produce as high of a measurement as possible. Basically it was from back when I out of curiosity wanted to see what my absolute max height was, so I tried to stretch as tall as I possibly could, even taking the positioning of my upper skull into account to produce the absolute max height, for many measurements conducted during days spread over a few weeks or so. In total I probably measured at least 50-60 times. I also did some measurements later during the day to see how much I shrank during the daily 16 hours of being awake.

The 187,7 cm measurement I noted by only a few measurments about 1,5 months ago during three mornings in a row. Since I measured pretty much exactly the same height every time, around 187,7 cm, I concluded that I indeed had reached a new max height. So it seems I have gotten taller with about 0,5 cm since I started. I speculate that this means that I have permanently straightened out my spine/cervical spine a bit.

As for bone movement being enabled in my skull my belief is that is certainly has been possible for me from the very beginning. I actually had to adjust my glasses after only a few weeks of hard mewing/clenching (yea, in the very beginning I actually even clenched a lot during my mewing). My nose had seemingly been pushed up and forwards. Surely this must be the result of bone movement to at least a certain degree since it happened so fast.

As for my upper skull, like mentioned above the anterior part of it seems to have raised and also moved forwards since I started. I noticed this very clearly as I one day about 4 months or so after I started randomly happened to stroke my hand over this skull area. At that point I realized how the relatively steep slope I used to have between my posterior part of my upper skull and my anterior part of it seemingly had been reduced (the posterior part has always been placed higher than the anterior, creating a slope between the two). Ever since I first noticed this I kept feeling on the top of my head every now and then as I kept the process going and surely I could feel how the slope over time became less pronounced. To me this indicated further upswing movement of the anterior part of my skull. I had before noticed how my hairline had started to move upwards, so this seemed to explain why this had taken place in me. Today the slope is much less pronounced. As a matter of fact it is almost gone. The circumference of my skull seems to have remained the same though. Luckily I measured my circumference before I started, it was a big relief once I realized that my upper skull seemingly had not actually started to grow. Given this I believe that this upper skull change probably is a result of mostly bone movement.

So all in all, my best guess is that bone movement indeed is enabled in my skull and has been so for the majority of these 9 months. I do still worry that I perhaps have enabled too much bone growth as well during the process. I worry that my upwards pushing against the roof of the mouth might provide stimuli for bone growth in addition to causing bone movement/remodeling. Whether that is what actually happens or not I do not know. All I know is that I have some worries about my development and that I today realize that what I have been doing is quite extreme. I did learn earlier today in this thread that apparently it has been attempted before though. Jona in the success thread claimed he did something very similar and he did not mention having any regrets.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 1:09 pm
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

I see stories like this regarding hard mewing more often than not. Maybe not exactly like yours but it seems many proponents of hard mewing are dissatisfied .

Do you mind elaborating on this. Do you remember any story in particular? Any trends?

Are they complaining about teeth issues or other things? Are they complaining about soreness?
Are they complaining about making things worse after having done what they have done for many months?

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Posted : 17/05/2018 2:56 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: test151515
Posted by: EddieMoney

I see stories like this regarding hard mewing more often than not. Maybe not exactly like yours but it seems many proponents of hard mewing are dissatisfied .

Do you mind elaborating on this. Do you remember any story in particular? Any trends?

Are they complaining about teeth issues or other things? Are they complaining about soreness?
Are they complaining about making things worse after having done what they have done for many months?

Teeth separating seems to be a common concern but not for you. 

Also, keep in mind the spines natural position isn't straight as an arrow. Lumbar curves in, thoracic curves out, and cervical curves in again . 

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Posted : 17/05/2018 3:08 pm
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: test151515
Posted by: EddieMoney

I see stories like this regarding hard mewing more often than not. Maybe not exactly like yours but it seems many proponents of hard mewing are dissatisfied .

Do you mind elaborating on this. Do you remember any story in particular? Any trends?

Are they complaining about teeth issues or other things? Are they complaining about soreness?
Are they complaining about making things worse after having done what they have done for many months?

Teeth separating seems to be a common concern but not for you. 

Also, keep in mind the spines natural position isn't straight as an arrow. Lumbar curves in, thoracic curves out, and cervical curves in again . 

The person who asked about if my spine was straight as an arrow probably was wondering if it was straight seen from the front. So when I responded regarding it I too meant of it as such. Like you explain it obviously should not be straight at all from the side.

Yeah I am glad that my teeth have not caused any trouble during the process. I saw some minor flaring in the beginning though since I pushed a bit against the upper frontal incisors at that time, partly because of how narrow my palate then was. I adjusted my tongue position, chewed a bit with my incisors (Mike Mew has mentioned that some of his patients seem to see less flaring issues when they chew more during the process), and the flaring seemed to go away relatively quickly. Today I have more room so I don't really ever make any contact with my frontal incisors anymore.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 6:26 pm
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Trusted Member

I have a 1mm diastema between my two front teeth and I don't think hard mewing made it worse, and I know it didn't create it either, at least not initially. Just my experience, but I developed mine 5 years ago, about 2 weeks in to my mewing journey. I started off with a very basic approach, simply placing my tongue on the roof of my mouth. Mew has said it's a normal sign of expansion. Mine has come and gone over the years.

To me, hard mewing is a matter of pushing the tongue up and out on the palate rather than just using the suction hold. The difficulty, I've found, is striking the balance between the force of the teeth held together and the force of the tongue applied to the palate. I've found it takes considerable mental effort through the day to get it right, especially when you're starting out.

Clenching is bad and can shorten your teeth.

I still hard mew, but not as much as I used to, because I've adopted a wider range of practices, introduced slowly, to assist my expansion efforts, which are measurably more effective.

As for your results, they seem in line with what is typical after a year of mewing. At your age, things are going to go slower and this is also typical. I started at the same age as you with a 29mm inter molar distance, and I saw no visible results in the mirror (other than the diastema) after a year, for comparison in case it helps. 3 years in is when the magic started happening for me.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 7:00 pm
Allixa
(@allixa)
Estimable Member
Posted by: test151515

I have probably spent way more time mewing regularly/mewing with force with my teeth not making contact, resting in near contact but with my lips sealed, compared to doing so whit them making contact. I have thought a lot about teeth to teeth contact during the process though so I have not let my teeth not make contact for longer periods. Even in the beginnined I forced myself to rest them together quite a bit even though it was harder back then given that I had so little tongue space. I make better teeth to teeth contact lately since it has became a lot easier for me to rest my teeth in light contact while mewing now that I have more room for my tongue.

John Mew explained in a video that the teeth should rest in light contact or in near to light contact. This I have followed throughout the entire process, with my lips obviously being sealed at all times. I speculate that it is more important to rest the tongue in the roof of the mouth than it is to keep the teeth in light contact. And as for adults that want to change obviously the tongue is what must drive the process (but perhaps not by any added force but just by simply making contact).

If you have spent more time mewing with your teeth apart then that could explain some of the negative changes you are seeing. Without teeth contact the maxilla will tend to rotate downwards such that your zygomatic area becomes very pronounced, but your mouth and chin will become weaker. The teeth being in contact is just as important as the tongue posture.

Does this idea seem to explain any of what you saw?

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Posted : 17/05/2018 11:03 pm Couda liked
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Trusted Member
Posted by: Allixa
Posted by: test151515

I have probably spent way more time mewing regularly/mewing with force with my teeth not making contact, resting in near contact but with my lips sealed, compared to doing so whit them making contact. I have thought a lot about teeth to teeth contact during the process though so I have not let my teeth not make contact for longer periods. Even in the beginnined I forced myself to rest them together quite a bit even though it was harder back then given that I had so little tongue space. I make better teeth to teeth contact lately since it has became a lot easier for me to rest my teeth in light contact while mewing now that I have more room for my tongue.

John Mew explained in a video that the teeth should rest in light contact or in near to light contact. This I have followed throughout the entire process, with my lips obviously being sealed at all times. I speculate that it is more important to rest the tongue in the roof of the mouth than it is to keep the teeth in light contact. And as for adults that want to change obviously the tongue is what must drive the process (but perhaps not by any added force but just by simply making contact).

If you have spent more time mewing with your teeth apart then that could explain some of the negative changes you are seeing. Without teeth contact the maxilla will tend to rotate downwards such that your zygomatic area becomes very pronounced, but your mouth and chin will become weaker. The teeth being in contact is just as important as the tongue posture.

Does this idea seem to explain any of what you saw?

Yeah @test151515 I also saw that video you mentioned and for a time I mewed with teeth not in contact, my reasoning was similar to yours as well, but my chin got weaker as Allixa points out. Luckily I figured out what was going on and I think things turned around back to normal in about a few weeks. I don't think I permanently damaged my face, just lost out on some growth potential for some time.

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Posted : 18/05/2018 12:21 am
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member

Thanks a lot for your responses.

@Greensmoothies
I see. Your process seems very different than mine then. I saw very fast change and the lateral distance between my zygomatic bones had increased with about a full cm just 3-4 months after I started.

How did you turn around your process? What did you change?

@Axilla
Interesting. How certain are you of this? My cheekbones do indeed seem to be overpowering my mouth area, giving my a strange and swollen look in my midface. I have mewed with force while my teeth have not been in light contact quite a lot, more so than with them being in contact. The distance between my mouth and my pupils have not increased though. It has pretty much remained the same and if anything possible been reduced a tiny amount. My maxilla seems to be vertically located at a proportionate place given that the ratio between the distance from the point where upper lip meats lower and the distance between my pupils is about 1.0, and given that I do not have a gummy smile. The amount of gum that shows when I smile fully is seemingly exactly the same as before I started the process and seems to be precisely the right amount of gum that should be seen.

If what you speculate may have happened has happened in me, should I then not have noticed a more gummy smile by now?

I have now updated my first post in this thread to include even more concerns about the change I have seen. I feel pretty bad right now but I feel an obligation to share my experience so that others that possibly would consider doing something similar for some reason can be very warned about it.

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Posted : 18/05/2018 4:07 am
Couda
(@couda)
Eminent Member

Imagine your facial bones are like clay, if you just push with your tongue upwards and not having teeth in contact. The upper palate will become more vaulted, like Allixa points out. The teeth will not necessarily follow the vault upwards, so the bone mass is squeezed up between your eyes and laterally(cheekbones). That would explain why your midface length has not changed. You have likely reached a more ideal distance between eyes and you can probably get a little bit shorter midface if you hold your teeth together.

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Posted : 18/05/2018 6:07 am
test151515
(@test151515)
Active Member
Posted by: Couda

Imagine your facial bones are like clay, if you just push with your tongue upwards and not having teeth in contact. The upper palate will become more vaulted, like Allixa points out. The teeth will not necessarily follow the vault upwards, so the bone mass is squeezed up between your eyes and laterally(cheekbones). That would explain why your midface length has not changed. You have likely reached a more ideal distance between eyes and you can probably get a little bit shorter midface if you hold your teeth together.

I will certainly try to do better with my teeth to teeth contact from now on. However, I have my doubts about if I even should keep doing what I have been doing at all, with or without force upwards. At the same time, at this point I think that I am in it too deep to go back. Even though I am having severe anxiety about my current situation I am still sitting here as I'm typing these words with my tongue against the roof of the mouth and with my teeth in light contact, and with my head in chin-tuk position..

The crazy thing is that my breathing and posture, and even my back, has improved significantly by this whole thing. So why do I feel like my appearance has gotten so much worse. It makes no sense to me that seemingly good things in theory has resulted in what I today am getting more and more convinced in is a worsening of my appearance).

As for the "imagine the maxilla as a piece of clay" thing. I wish this is the case.. The thing is that I suspect I have seen a lot of bone growth as opposed to remodeling. That would explain why I have changed seemingly so fast as well. Bone growth goes significantly faster than bone remodeling to my knowledge.

Studies have shown that adult palatal expanders actually can create new bone mass simply by pushing against the teeth. So I suspect that bone growth likely can be very involved during the mewing process as well.

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Posted : 18/05/2018 7:10 am
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Trusted Member

@test151515 I didn't really do much of anything differently the first 3 years of mewing, and it's just since I've joined this forum this I've started experimenting with different approaches and whatnot. At a later date I'll create a thread to elaborate further there re: my routine. From the beginning, I took a very basic mewing approach, and it just so happened to take 3 years to be able to clearly see some change in the mirror. I introduced some new concepts from Mew's videos as I went along, refining my process here and there, and that's about it. I've tried my best to do things correctly and fix my posture. Please keep in mind that according to Mew it's typical to not notice change from Mewing as an adult after 5 years, maybe even 10... so I'm inclined to think my results have been good, above average even

I believe a lot of it has to do with the attitude you adopt toward the Mewing. First, I try not to become concerned with needing to see facial change in the mirror, as I don't think there's much sense in fretting about that since this is really a long haul kind of project, especially when you're older. I take stock of my facial appearance to keep tabs on anything negative occurring, so I can adjust and intervene to remedy it though. In the beginning of my journey, I first noticed things like improved airway and the diastema, which are signs of expansion. This helped give me trust in the process, as well as watching Mew's videos, not seeing facial change results in the mirror

When I started, as far as I'm aware, for community support there was puahate and Break the Matrix to discuss these ideas, however posting on those forums didn't appeal to me for various reasons. So I simply accepted that my support in this endeavour was going to be Mew's YouTube channel, and that was about it. Even with the support of this forum, I still accept that this process entails venture in to the unknown. Mewing, etc is yet still an experimental and we're all pioneers in this. Mistakes will be made and lessons learnt along the way. I accept it and carry on to the best of my ability

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Posted : 18/05/2018 7:22 pm Sclera liked
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

Let's keep in mind Mike Mew also did not treat adults for most of his career. So approximations of how long results happen is more an issue of him covering his own ass in terms of disclaimers. He can't go around claiming people will experience results in a specific amount of time because he has no control of anything they are doing.

I personally have seen results in as little as months and these are visible to me because I have a lot of body awareness HOWEVER I have also made measurements so it is quantifiable. I am 32 this year so I can say in my case it certainly happened much faster. I would say the best effect is facial widening since I no longer have to wear long hair on my sides to add width to my skull. The flanged effect from broader cheekbones also has made it to wear a beard is unnecessary for my recessed face . And all this in a manner of months

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Posted : 19/05/2018 11:25 am
krollic
(@krollic)
Estimable Member

How long have you been at it @eddiemoney and what specific gains have you made? cheers

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Posted : 19/05/2018 1:07 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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