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hyoid bone position while swallowing and breathing.  

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mateogon
New Member

I've been mewing for 6-7 months now. I can breathe easier while mewing now and I'm pretty sure I can lift the whole tongue.

When you swallow, the tongue initially rises and applies pressure to the palate, and then relaxes. The hyoid bone raises and lowers along with the tongue. One can conciously begin a swallow, and don't let the tongue relax, keeping the hyoid bone higher than usual, and the tongue applying force. The thing is I can't breathe while keeping this. As soon as as I breathe , the hyoid bone lowers a little bit, and the tongue lowers the force a bit. Is the final goal being able to breathe while in that position? Is it possible?

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Posted : 31/08/2019 4:53 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

Don't try to hold the hyoid position during a swallow. When you swallow part of the reason the hyoid raises is to close the airway so that food doesn't get in there, so when you swallow you technically cannot breathe. It's impossible to hold this unless you want to suffocate.

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Posted : 31/08/2019 8:09 pm
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member
Posted by: @sinned

Don't try to hold the hyoid position during a swallow. When you swallow part of the reason the hyoid raises is to close the airway so that food doesn't get in there, so when you swallow you technically cannot breathe. It's impossible to hold this unless you want to suffocate.

What approach do you recommend taking to learn to raise the hyoid properly?

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Posted : 01/09/2019 5:44 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@pame

Let the hyoid rests where it rests, no reason to purposefully raise or lower it if you're mewing properly. Just observe your hyoid in a swallow, purposefully do a "bad" swallow where your not really engaging the tongue, you'll realize you still raise the hyoid, this is to close the airway. 

"The vocal folds close to seal the glottis (space between the vocal folds) and the arytenoids tilt forward to contact the epiglottic base prior to opening of the UES.1617 The hyoid bone and larynx are pulled upward and forward by contraction of the suprahyoid muscles and thyrohyoid muscle."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2597750/

Mewing also slightly raises the hyoid, wherever the hyoid is while your mewing is likely where it should be, on average most people have their hyoid situated too low, not that that has any inherent bad/side effects of it's own, rather it's a symptom of bad tongue and head posture. Hyoid should be about c3-mid c3 level.

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Posted : 01/09/2019 6:16 am
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

@sinned How do you know whether you're mewing correctly or not then? I though one of the main signs of correct mewing was seeing/feeling the hyoid bone raise.

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Posted : 01/09/2019 6:21 am
RamonT liked
sinned
Estimable Member

@pame

You're right, the tongue is connected to the hyoid as an anchor so if you raise the tongue the hyoid raises as well. My point is that the hyoid itself is not something you should particularly focus on or try to purposefully raise/lower. If you're using it as a way to tell if you're mewing properly then that's fine, if you start trying to purposefully lower or raise it that's where I'd argue you're wasting your time. The hyoid is where it is because that's how it is, I know that sounds stupid but the point is that the hyoid isn't something you should focus on, rather, it's something that changes as an effect of proper mewing. 

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Posted : 01/09/2019 6:57 am
mateogon liked
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

@sinned 

That makes sense. But what is then the best way to tell whether your technique is correct or not?

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Posted : 01/09/2019 7:33 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@pame

If the whole tongue rests on the palate, soft and hard palate. If you feel your deep neck muscles and your hyoid raises as well as tightening up the neck area under the jaw. You just need to be aware, no one can really tell you if you're mewing correctly or not, it comes through trying yourself.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/09/2019 7:55 am
mateogon liked
Usum
 Usum
New Member
Posted by: @pame

@sinned How do you know whether you're mewing correctly or not then? I though one of the main signs of correct mewing was seeing/feeling the hyoid bone raise.

I discovered two days ago this way to proceed :

I put my fingers on the hyoid bone (to check its raising) then swallows which puts the tongue to the appropriate position when the hyoid bone hits its highest position... then, considering I can't keep the hyoid in this position for long, I just focus on the sensation of the tongue and that it keeps its position.

Hope it helps and being right too.

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Posted : 02/09/2019 6:59 am
Ayla31
Trusted Member

@sinned

What about Astro sky's raising tongue video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIh4wT-WfYA

He is also focusing on consciously raising the tongue from it's root/hyoid bone (more or less at 1:38 min). I have found this tip particularly helpful, along with raising the front part of the tongue, while using my proprioception and sense of touch as feedback. I also find it easier to make a cheesy swallow (and other swallow exercises) from there.

May I ask what you do to raise your tongue and get it on the roof of the mouth, especially the posterior third? (ex. your routine)

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Posted : 02/09/2019 3:34 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@usum

This is my experience as well, in the recent past when I noticed that my hyoid came up pretty high during a swallow, I experimented trying to hold that. In my observation it was impossible to hold, at least impossible to hold while also trying to breathe. That lead me to some googling and I found out that in the position which the hyoid is the highest, the airway is also closed, therefore it's literally impossible to breathe. When you swallow your airway is temporarily closed to allow liquid/food to pass through.

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Posted : 02/09/2019 3:38 pm
mateogon liked
sinned
Estimable Member

@ayla31

Someone actually told me sort of recently about that video. I find it interesting and I was able to do it as well and have recently just been raising the back of the tongue on the soft palate as the video showed (with my mouth closed). I notice that the front 2/3s of the tongue doesn't actually push up in the same way that the back of the tongue does. When I try what Astro Sky does in the video but with the front 2/3s of my tongue it just doesn't work. Instead what I notice is that while it raises, it doesn't "push" like the back of the tongue, instead it raises and spreads out. Just try it yourself, try raising only the back of the tongue on the soft palate, then try raising the front 2/3s of the tongue on the hard palate, the back of the tongue produces much more upwards force. Now try raising the front 2/3s but instead of trying to push up, spread your tongue out. This is basically what I do, I push up with the back of my tongue and with the front of my tongue I spread out, forward and laterally. I also do a swallow to create a suction hold. To get the back of my tongue on the soft palate I chin tuck slightly, do a cheesy smile swallow, or just push up like what Astro Sky does but with my mouth closed of course.

Some people I know have been worried if there was any issue with pushing up, especially with the popular post on the mechanism of upswing, that the maxilla upswings through the palatoglossus raising the back of the tongue and in doing so pulling the back of maxilla down and forward.  Since the vomer sits above the hard palate, it is impossible in my opinion to jam the vomer, as I've said, the anterior 2/3s of the tongue just doesn't produce that much pushing force unlike the posterior third. If you look at the anatomy of the skull the vomer resides on the hard palate, not the soft palate, so pushing up on the soft palate shouldn't be bad at all, it just so happens the posterior third comes up on the soft palate. This leads me to believe that it is critical that the posterior third applies force on the soft palate for upswing while the front of the tongue spreads out and squeezes into the hard palate, with the assistance of a suction hold, to produce expanding force.

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Posted : 02/09/2019 4:09 pm
Ayla31 liked
Ayla31
Trusted Member

@sinned

Interesting, I always saw it akin to suctioning the posterior part slowly and pushing gently with the front part, as some members here have suggested (in Mewing in general). That's sort of what I feel, but I have to do it slowly and relatively relaxed to be able to raise the whole tongue/hyoid as one. But maybe it is the same as what you do and I just don't know how to describe with words? the only thing I know, is that it feels more controlled as when I just suction or push without paying attention to which muscle I'm using. 

I am also not thinking on pushing with the front part...I just focus on being able to feel with the touch sense as much as possible. But I'm considering on increasing the force a little bit, both in the back and front, to be more used to the position (as I have a tongue tie, and it takes more effort for me, to be able to break/counteract the inward forces of my facial muscles. I'm pretty sure most of the time there is not enough contact between the two, tongue and palate, as it makes breathing difficult when I do it and I snore when I breath through my nose...it feels uncomfortable).

Anyway, I'm glad you find the video useful as well. Thanks for sharing your routine.

 

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Posted : 02/09/2019 5:22 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@ayla31

I might have overcomplicated it, I should have mentioned that it's not necessarily something I do purposefully, just my observation. When the tongue comes up, most of the "upwards" force is coming from the back on the soft palate, in other words in order to get the front part of the tongue firmly on the palate, it's critical that you engage the back end of the tongue. It's possible to just engage the back of the tongue like what Astro Sky demonstrates, but basically impossible to do the same with the front. Bad analogy incoming but it's like trying to pick up a long piece of wood, you cannot just pick it up at one end, you have to pick up the whole thing, with the tongue in order to get the front of the tongue on the palate you need the back of the tongue to be pushing up.

Honestly I don't worry exactly about what the tongue does as my previous post suggests, like I said I should have clarified it's more of an observation. People say that the whole tongue pushes up, in my experience when I do a proper swallow/cheesy smile swallow, what I observe is the front end of my tongue spreading out, starting by pushing forward (since I have a vault), and then a wave like motion front to back that raises the whole tongue, with the back of the tongue pushing more upwards. I think this wave like motion that goes front to back is largely controlled by the back of the tongue, as the back of the tongue rises more and more of the tongue comes up on the palate until the back of the tongue is fully on the soft palate/pushing up. That's why it's basically impossible to push up with the anterior 2/3s as they are affected largely by the posterior third, to raise the front end you need to raise the back end.

 

This is sort of what I mean, in order to get the front part of the tongue up, the back most come up, this is how I think the wave like motion of the swallow occurs. I think the tongue pushes up more posteriorly possibly because of leverages, the back end of the tongue is closest and most in line with the hyoid which the tongue is anchored to.

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Posted : 02/09/2019 5:57 pm
Ayla31 liked
Ayla31
Trusted Member

@sinned

I think, I see what you mean.

I thought Astro meant to move the whole tongue, the front part along and root at the same time, starting from the hyoid bone? I find that easier. He just explained each step separately so that one can understand better. At least that's what I thought. But at this point that's not the only thing I do to get the tongue up there, so I may be using combinations of exercise subconsciously. 

Do you also feel the back of your tongue touching your uvula and tonsils?

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Posted : 02/09/2019 6:24 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@ayla31

I think Astro is just demonstrating, not necessarily describing a "method", he's emphasizing the importance of the posterior third and showing what it looks like since many people don't understand. You can raise the posterior third itself and firstly and then allow the front part of the tongue to rest in the palate, however, when you swallow the tongue is obviously going front to back in a wave like motion, not back to front. So I prefer getting into proper tongue posture with a swallow, however, seeing Astro's video made me experiment trying to solely push up the posterior third or consciously pushing up, while I think it's pretty interesting I still prefer to just do a swallow and/or slight chin tuck and maybe sometimes consciously push up with the posterior third as Astro demonstrates. I'm honestly not sure if my tongue is touching the uvula or tonsils, all I can say is it's definitely hitting the soft palate. I'm honestly not sure what's the difference between the uvula and soft palate, is the uvula just the back end of the soft palate? I would say I'm probably touching it but I'm not so sure. When I probe around with the back of the tongue if I go any lower I start hitting the airway so I know I'm getting a lot of the soft palate if not all of it.

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Posted : 02/09/2019 7:22 pm
Ayla31
Trusted Member

@sinned

Yes, as the uvula is part of the soft palate, feeling it, along with the tonsils, tells me I'm having full contact with the area and not just a part of the soft palate. Feeling my tongue with my tonsils/uvula and viceversa helps me identify if they are really making contact. And when that happens I can also feel the tongue taking more "impulse" to be able to spread forward. 

But I was just curious. Thanks again for your info.

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Posted : 03/09/2019 4:56 pm
RamonT
Trusted Member
sinned
Estimable Member

@ramont

The hyoid/larynx comes up and forward due to the suprahyoid and thyrohyoid, pulling the epiglottis into a more horizontal position which closes the airway. It's possible to actually hold this position, I can do it myself, however, you wouldn't want to do it since it closes off your airway. This action of the hyoid is independent of the tongue, in other words, even when the hyoid comes down to open the airway, the tongue still stays up.

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Posted : 07/09/2019 11:41 pm
RamonT liked
RamonT
Trusted Member
Posted by: @sinned

@ramont

The hyoid/larynx comes up and forward due to the suprahyoid and thyrohyoid, pulling the epiglottis into a more horizontal position which closes the airway. It's possible to actually hold this position, I can do it myself, however, you wouldn't want to do it since it closes off your airway. This action of the hyoid is independent of the tongue, in other words, even when the hyoid comes down to open the airway, the tongue still stays up.

I agree. I do somewhat like a drill where i do the swallowing action  simultaneously bringing the hyoid up. It is hard to explain because no one uses the anchor i use, which is very intense during this drill.

 

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Posted : 08/09/2019 1:08 pm