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How recessed are you? How to track progress inside  

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EddieMoney
Reputable Member

For those who don't know, the Mew indicator line is a great tool to measure your level of recession, and also to measure your progress.

Basically, you measure from the bottom of your upper incisors to the furthest tip of your nose in millimeters. As you can see, adult male ideal scores are from 38-44 mm while females are 36-42 mm (to accommodate smaller female dentition).

This accurately measures how much recession is present and how much you need to advance. Best way to do this is to hold the ruler next to your teeth, and take a picture. 

?cb=1390166327

Let's measure how recessed we are! Lol

My score is...50mm. Raging! 6-12mm of advancement needed to get to normal.  😓 

Because my incisors are retroclined (tipped backwards by orthodontist), I have to use the different method seen here:

https://www.facebook.com/orthotropics/photos/a.438740862823750.99128.191194527578386/730924590272041/?type=3

What is your Mew indicator line score?

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Posted : 28/06/2018 2:48 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

About 50 mm here too.

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Posted : 28/06/2018 3:44 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: AloeVera
Posted by: EddieMoney

For those who don't know, the Mew indicator line is a great tool to measure your level of recession, and also to measure your progress.

What is your Mew indicator line score?

I had no idea this was a thing! Thanks for posting it @eddiemoney

 

Rudimentary attempts at this say I'm hovering around 50mm too i.e I didn't take a picture, I just looked sideways in the mirror. 

 

Have any of you measured your Mew indicator line score before you started mewing to track progress? If so, any changes?

 

 

I wish I did. 

The Orthotropics FB page says Scandinavians will have greater average numbers (maybe nose length?) and East Asians have smaller numbers. But seems like many of us are hovering around 50mm. 

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Posted : 28/06/2018 7:16 pm
AloeVera liked
Keengo
Trusted Member

40mm exactly. Still waiting on the Lachowski Indicator Line, however......

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 28/06/2018 7:36 pm
Sclera
Estimable Member

I'm 46mm, female, and unfortunately haven't been measuring since I began mewing in August 2017, though I doubt it's changed much. I'm very curious to see if it goes down within a year! 

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Posted : 28/06/2018 8:15 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

40mm exactly. Still waiting on the Lachowski Indicator Line, however......

Schlaya

Face pulling sounds legit 

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Posted : 28/06/2018 8:16 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Just a small note, the second illustration states the ideal indicator line for adults incorrectly as 40-44mm, it should be 36-40mm. I confirmed this in a discussion with Dr. John Mew. Mike is planning to make a video about measuring this just like he did for the inter molar width.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 29/06/2018 1:18 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Sclera

I'm 46mm, female, and unfortunately haven't been measuring since I began mewing in August 2017, though I doubt it's changed much. I'm very curious to see if it goes down within a year! 

Did your incisor teeth position or angulation change at all? If not probably its still the same. Unaided with devices the first year shows little progress usually.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 29/06/2018 1:20 am
PaperBag
Trusted Member

The measurement was hardly precise, but I kept getting around 50mm as well.

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Posted : 29/06/2018 1:57 am
Slinky
Trusted Member

Mine is about 45 mm

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Posted : 29/06/2018 2:15 am
RedFountain
Active Member

I did a quick and dirty measurement in the mirror, I'm around 52mm. That is despite some (slight) bimaxillary protrusion. Can only image how far back my maxilla really is.

How does a short nose, long philtrum affect the measurement? I would imagine a short nose would result in higher numbers, and could lead someone to believe they're recessed while they're actually not?

I'm going to keep a log for this. I'm thinking of weekly or biweekly measurements. This is far more than needed, as progress would obviously be very slow, but more measurements help compensate for inaccuracy in measurements.

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Posted : 29/06/2018 3:41 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: RedFountain

I did a quick and dirty measurement in the mirror, I'm around 52mm. That is despite some (slight) bimaxillary protrusion. Can only image how far back my maxilla really is.

How does a short nose, long philtrum affect the measurement? I would imagine a short nose would result in higher numbers, and could lead someone to believe they're recessed while they're actually not?

I'm going to keep a log for this. I'm thinking of weekly or biweekly measurements. This is far more than needed, as progress would obviously be very slow, but more measurements help compensate for inaccuracy in measurements.

I believe these measurements are based on varying nose shapes and sizes. So in other words, 52 mm is recessed regardless of whether the nose is short or not. Why? Consider that a short nose may be low in vertical height but it would also be short in horizontal length (distance from top of upper lip to furthest point out). It evens out because of that .

I have also read that when bimax is present, the maxilla is recessed. This means that if the maxilla was in a proper position, the teeth wouldn't be able to protrude outwards because the bite would align properly due to an adequate intermolar width and enough room for the tongue that would prevent teeth flaring. In other words, bimax is seen in recessed people because of the fact their tongue doesn't have enough room in their palate.

Everyone I have seen with bimax has their incisors far away from their nose. The acute nasolabial angle doesn't tell the whole story. 

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Posted : 29/06/2018 8:40 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
 
What I find so ridiculous is that the cost of many devices that would incline teeth outward are more expensive than orthodontic treatment itself. I paid $3000 USD for my ortho treatment and that involved way more than simply changing angularity of teeth. When I see prices like $7,000 to $10,000 for appliances that move teeth out I can't believe it at all. 
 
@Abdulrahman I am willing to bet it only a tiny percentage of people are in the 36-40mm range based on just looking at people's profiles. 
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Posted : 29/06/2018 8:49 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
 
@Abdulrahman I am willing to bet it only a tiny percentage of people are in the 36-40mm range based on just looking at people's profiles. 

It is. The preneolithic man Dr. Mew uses for ideal measurements has 38mm.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 29/06/2018 9:02 am
Sclera
Estimable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Sclera

I'm 46mm, female, and unfortunately haven't been measuring since I began mewing in August 2017, though I doubt it's changed much. I'm very curious to see if it goes down within a year! 

Did your incisor teeth position or angulation change at all? If not probably its still the same. Unaided with devices the first year shows little progress usually.

@abdulrahman, my incisors haven't changed at all, but it's possible that might begin now that I've reached a new posture. My molars are resting in what feels to be a more aligned way, and my lower incisors are now pressing against my upper incisors, when before there was maybe a 1-2mm overbite. My upper teeth still cover at least half of my lower teeth, but I don't remember my bite ever feeling this way before.

It's a relief to hear that the 1st year doesn't yield much. I've seen a lot of changes, but intermolar width and maxillary forward growth aren't part of it.

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Posted : 29/06/2018 9:50 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I think my incisors have changed but that may be me just imagining. What I do know is that forward movement has occurred simply because my chin projects more in the Frankfurt plane. It has advanced definitely I am just not sure by how much.

Now this forward movement may not even be maxillary and may just be sliding forward movement of the mandible due to increased intermolar width . More than likely that has changed BUT I also think some maxillary may have happened due to less gum exposure in the front and more gum exposure on the sides. Looking at a pic of me from 7 years ago I see the gumline above my upper premolars (bicuspids) more exposed now compared to then indicating slight counterclockwise rotation  

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Posted : 29/06/2018 10:07 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
After working out how to accurately measure, I've decided my mew indicator line is about 45mm. My maxilla doesn't have much vertical excess, but it is recessed.
 
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Apollo

I took a photo like this one to make the measurement easier to read and for future comparison. Mine is around 43mm.

Image result for mew indicator line

How did you figure where to put that other red line?the one that intersects the mm reading

This is just a slide I found on google images, so I didn't draw the lines, but I assume they think that represents the most anterior point of the nose and then extrapolated that out to the ruler. This is why I said I struggle to get a consistent reading when we talked about the mew indicator line in another thread

Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: EddieMoney

What is your mew indicator line measure?

I just tried to measure and it looks to be about 43mm, but this isn't something I keep track of because I always struggle to decide what is the most anterior point on the tip of my nose.

I found it helpful to take a picture myself rather than trying to get a consistent reading while looking in a mirror.

 

Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: EddieMoney

Here is a helpful post:

https://www.facebook.com/orthotropics/photos/a.438740862823750.99128.191194527578386/730924590272041/?type=3

These are helpful instructions for measuring the mew indicator line! I suspect mine might be a millimeter or two higher than what I had reported because I was gently pressing the ruler into my nose. I would now conservatively estimate mine at about 45mm.

No automatic alt text available.

This is the distance from the tip of the nose to the incisal edge of the lowest upper central incisor (Fig. IV/15). The tip of the nose is defined as the furthest point from the Tragus of the ear... One caution is necessary when the maxilla is very retruded; the ruler must not be pressed against the nose but placed at a tangent to it and the line from the Tragus extended to where both lines meet figure IV/19). If desired the line can be measured on a lateral skull x-ray but do not forget to allow for enlargement. Clearly this measurement is no more than an ‘indication’, nevertheless it is surprisingly accurate. This unlikely measurement is now used to assess maxillary position throughout the world and is especially helpful for epidemiological studies where X-rays may not be possible. It provides an approximate guide of the relationship of the mid-face and the frontal bone, representing the ‘fullness.’

 

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Posted : 29/06/2018 3:50 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

Here's an interesting comparison which helps visualize how the mew indicator line relates to an ideal profile as compared to a patient with obstructive sleep apnea:

• Facial Changes/ Relaxed Musculature

From this presentation ( https://www.slideshare.net/drbarry/orourke-spreecast-11-915 ), which is pretty general but has a few other interesting slides included.

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Posted : 29/06/2018 6:11 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Apollo

Here's an interesting comparison which helps visualize how the mew indicator line relates to an ideal profile as compared to a patient with obstructive sleep apnea:

• Facial Changes/ Relaxed Musculature

From this presentation ( https://www.slideshare.net/drbarry/orourke-spreecast-11-915 ), which is pretty general but has a few other interesting slides included.

Girl on the right: AN TE FACE

ANTEFACE

N

T

E

F

A

C

E

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Posted : 29/06/2018 6:38 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Girl on the right: AN TE FACE

ANTEFACE

N

T

E

F

A

C

E

Here are more pictures of her from the same presentation:

Expansion Phase
Better oxygenation 10 months later

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Posted : 29/06/2018 6:47 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

That girl is incredibly robust. Wonder what her Mew indicator score was .

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Posted : 29/06/2018 6:59 pm
PaperBag
Trusted Member

@Apollo The man looks like he has enlarged buccinators, but why does it look like the woman does too? She probably just has a higher body fat percentage, but sometimes I still can't tell the difference between 'full' cheeks and buccinator hypertrophy. Some orthotropic cases seem to produce really round looking cheeks and I thought it looked weird, but maybe I was conditioned to think having hollow cheeks was the goal for everyone. Obviously, women have more body fat, but is there a visual cue besides looking at the other features of a profile and comparing jaw positions to discern if someone has large buccinators?

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Posted : 29/06/2018 7:28 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@PaperBag

I wouldn't say that girl has enlarged buccinator muscles. I would say she just has a fat face. 

Mirin her maxilla though

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Posted : 29/06/2018 8:39 pm
PaperBag
Trusted Member

I didn't see those other photos of her before posting, now it's easy to see she doesn't have large buccinators. Her teeth look kind of uncomfortably stacked on top of each other, but yeah, great maxilla. My rat face is jealous.

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Posted : 30/06/2018 12:26 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: PaperBag

I didn't see those other photos of her before posting, now it's easy to see she doesn't have large buccinators. Her teeth look kind of uncomfortably stacked on top of each other, but yeah, great maxilla. My rat face is jealous.

She could probably benefit from slight expansion. Just because she has forward growth doesn't mean other factors can't also be changed for the better IMO 

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Posted : 30/06/2018 9:26 am
PaperBag liked
Oredrema
New Member

I’m 15 and 9 month and i got around 37-38 what is it considered?

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Posted : 01/09/2018 1:07 pm
Mewer000
Active Member

 EddieMoney what method are you using to attempt to bring the retroclined incisors forward? 

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Posted : 01/09/2018 10:35 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Mewer000

 EddieMoney what method are you using to attempt to bring the retroclined incisors forward? 

At the moment I am more concentrating on making sure my posterior third is engaged. The reason for that as opposed to any incisors proclination method is because when I finally moved my tongue to the incisive papilla when it could fit on the entire palate, my lower third disengaged.

Now I am concentrating on that more than anything incisor related because I want to counterclockwise rotate the maxilla, which is truly the measure of progress with a downward grown face as opposed to incisor inclination. Maybe if I see results this way I will either continue with tongue alone or see if a device like ALF could help. For now I am simply retraining myself to engage the posterior third as I am not too worried about the alveolar ridge at the moment. 

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Posted : 02/09/2018 7:37 pm
krollic
Estimable Member

bout time I subjected you lot to my ugly mug.

mind evaluating my MIL @eddiemoney mate? I'd rather not guess. 

image can be enlarged by right click -> new tab

This post was modified 12 months ago by krollic
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Posted : 03/09/2018 2:23 am
Yegor_L
Eminent Member

43 here

Here's my question... Mew has said that even those who we see today who are very attractive aren't perfect, and that there is always more room to expand.

Does this mean that this "38 to 44 mm" is just the point at which you wouldn't be considered recessed? Surely this still isn't the ideal, and if it is, I'm sure there are other metrics worth looking at than just this.

This post was modified 11 months ago 2 times by Yegor_L
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Posted : 06/09/2018 6:35 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Yegor_L

43 here

Here's my question... Mew has said that even those who we see today who are very attractive aren't perfect, and that there is always more room to expand.

Does this mean that this "38 to 44 mm" is just the point at which you wouldn't be considered recessed? Surely this still isn't the ideal, and if it is, I'm sure there are other metrics worth looking at than just this.

Intermolar width for one but Mew says the ideal is 36-40mm. 

Are you measuring like @krollic?

This post was modified 11 months ago by EddieMoney
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Posted : 07/09/2018 9:57 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: krollic

bout time I subjected you lot to my ugly mug.

mind evaluating my MIL @eddiemoney mate? I'd rather not guess. 

image can be enlarged by right click -> new tab

Looks like 49mm if your incisors  have a normal proclination and 51mm if they are retroclined.

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Posted : 07/09/2018 9:59 am
opelecky
New Member

My 13 y.o. son is 50.  OMG. This after years of ALF, myofunctional therapy, braces, and crozat. I hope that there is hope for him.

I'm 39mm (female). 

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Posted : 07/12/2018 1:04 pm
AlphaMinus
Estimable Member

Guess you're screwed if you've had rhinoplasty?

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Posted : 07/12/2018 2:30 pm
catirl
Active Member

@EddieMoney,  @Progress  Can you update your mm's now ? after 6month ? or someone who did this.

 

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Posted : 10/01/2019 12:11 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Just to be sure, the further away you are from the ideal range (38-44 mm for men), the more recessed your maxilla is? Am I right?

Greater than 44 mm: recessed

Less than 38 mm: not applicable?

This post was modified 7 months ago 2 times by GreekGodBrody
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Posted : 30/01/2019 2:10 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: GreekGodBrody

Just to be sure, the further away you are from the ideal range (38-44 mm for men), the more recessed your maxilla is? Am I right?

Greater than 44 mm: recessed

Less than 38 mm: not applicable?

Correct, though it is important to note that the vertical growth indicator is mainly for measuring the alveolar ridge relative to the maxilla. Also, the measurement is not very accurate, nose shapes and sizes can effect the measurement quite a bit.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 31/01/2019 2:01 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: GreekGodBrody

Just to be sure, the further away you are from the ideal range (38-44 mm for men), the more recessed your maxilla is? Am I right?

Greater than 44 mm: recessed

Less than 38 mm: not applicable?

Correct, though it is important to note that the vertical growth indicator is mainly for measuring the alveolar ridge relative to the maxilla. Also, the measurement is not very accurate, nose shapes and sizes can effect the measurement quite a bit.

Yeah, I was thinking about that. Surely the length on one's nose influences the measurement.

Measured my MIL at 50 mm 🙁

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Posted : 31/01/2019 4:37 am
Bael
 Bael
Active Member

Woa, 45mm. Not good but I thought my case was far worse than that.

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Posted : 31/01/2019 11:21 am
JeanMacDougall
Eminent Member

#50mmgang

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Posted : 31/01/2019 6:34 pm
Shaku
New Member

So according to people in this thread, the ideal for a male is 36mm to 40mm. I was wondering, is this a modern aesthetic ideal or an ancestral ideal? I.e: is the expectation that most males at 38mm would become better looking if they achieved 36mm, or is it the same situation as with inter-molar width where you start becoming too weird looking for the trends of our era if you get too close to the ancestral ideal? It is a bit of a vapid question but I would like to know how far I am from my ideal aesthetics-wise, I have 42mm atm.

This post was modified 5 months ago 2 times by Shaku
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Posted : 01/04/2019 9:44 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Shaku

So according to people in this thread, the ideal for a male is 36mm to 40mm. I was wondering, is this a modern aesthetic ideal or an ancestral ideal? I.e: is the expectation that most males at 38mm would become better looking if they achieved 36mm, or is it the same situation as with inter-molar width where you start becoming too weird looking for the trends of our era if you get too close to the ancestral ideal? It is a bit of a vapid question but I would like to know how far I am from my ideal aesthetics-wise, I have 42mm atm.

It isn't based around aesthetics but function. The higher your maxilla, the better your airway functions. Of course it comes with a shorter face and a stronger jaw but none of these things guarantee someone will be attractive facially. What is good about a short Mew line is that your smile looks more pleasing. 

However any increase in maxillary height (aka a decrease in Mew line) will make anyone look better facially. Hello less gum exposure and goodbye long face. And yes it is based on an ancestral ideal that is still found across the world in "primitive" tribes. And these people's facial aesthetics are ahead of ours by far. Short maxilla = younger face, higher fWHR, shorter face, stronger jaw. It makes you look both younger and with better bone development. Aka the way humans are supposed to look. Also these "ancestral" measurements belong to modern humans. Modern humans with short Mew lines may look a bit "primitive" however. It is true that throughout history short faced people were considered primitive. Possibly because of how rare a short Mew line is. 

This post was modified 5 months ago by EddieMoney
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Posted : 01/04/2019 4:31 pm
oatmeal
Eminent Member

Jesus Christ OP, I'm recessed as hell according to this.

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Posted : 02/04/2019 10:35 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: oatmeal

Jesus Christ OP, I'm recessed as hell according to this.

From side view your profile shows a long face so yes. 

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Posted : 02/04/2019 5:20 pm
Loliboly
Active Member

 

Because my incisors are retroclined (tipped backwards by orthodontist), I have to use the different method seen here:

https://www.facebook.com/orthotropics/photos/a.438740862823750.99128.191194527578386/730924590272041/?type=3

 @EddieMoney The link you provided doesn't work anymore. Do you have the time to explain how to take retroclined incisors into account?

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Posted : 24/06/2019 2:20 am
Slinky
Trusted Member
Posted by: Slinky

Mine is about 45 mm

still 45 mm about 1 year later. Getting to sub 40mm would take a lot of time and effort 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/06/2019 8:24 am
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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