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Have you experimented with hard suction?  

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Progress
Member Moderator

My understanding is that by hard mewing most mean deliberate pushing with the tongue. But has any of you experimented with suctioning really hard? I feel like this is a more natural and sustainable way of maintaining high intensity for longer bouts without having to think about it. Whereas hard pushing can be a little stressful, suctioning the palate hard is soothing in a sense. The subconscious seems to pick it up easier than the push. What are your experiences?

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Posted : 27/04/2020 12:10 pm
Loliboly and Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member

Bad idea, you'll suck your teeth inwards. Suction-hold isn't achieved by sucking, if you just push your tongue upwards and then relax it it will suction on it's own.

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Posted : 28/04/2020 1:46 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Bad idea, you'll suck your teeth inwards. Suction-hold isn't achieved by sucking, if you just push your tongue upwards and then relax it it will suction on it's own.

Note that lip suction is separate from tongue suction, although both can (should?) be combined into one cohesive movement. Suction very much needs deliberate sucking in my case, lest the tongue fall down from the palate.

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Posted : 28/04/2020 6:57 am
PolHolmes
Eminent Member

To be honest, I think you might be correct, I don't think it's sustainable to 'tongue balloon' with adequate force to make significant changes, without an incredible amount of discipline and dedication. Personally, I think it's too taxing mentally to try and do this, especially when you're trying to do work or do anything for that matter. You would need to be focused on applying pressure constantly and in an unrelenting matter.

I've been pushing and pressing for well over a year now with pretty much 0 changes at all. Which sucks big time, as I have honestly put so much effort into this. For the amount of time and effort I've engaged this tongue posture thing, I would've expected a tiny bit of results. Which again, is kind of frustrating... Anyhow...

 

Last night I made a super-strong vacuum in my mouth and felt pressure all around my face. However, it didn't feel quite so comfortable on my lower teeth. 

My problem has always been that I can never sustain the pressure long enough to make change. I know without a shadow of a doubt for me, I need to feel the said pressure in my cheekbones and my face in order to see change. I'm able to sustain tongue pressure to get this feeling only a few times per day, unfortunately, so perhaps the vacuum is the way to go.

Another thing is, when I do create a strong vacuum, this my mouth salivates like crazy, which in turn lessens the effect of the vacuum. Any tips for getting around this?

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Posted : 28/04/2020 9:22 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

My understanding is that by hard mewing most mean deliberate pushing with the tongue. But has any of you experimented with suctioning really hard? I feel like this is a more natural and sustainable way of maintaining high intensity for longer bouts without having to think about it. Whereas hard pushing can be a little stressful, suctioning the palate hard is soothing in a sense. The subconscious seems to pick it up easier than the push. What are your experiences?

I've thought about this recently after adopting helmutstrebl's advice on mewing because it somewhat feels like I'm hard suctioning at times.

I'm not sure however, if it's hard mewing or hard suctioning that brings greater skeletal changes as I have very limited experience with both options.

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Posted : 28/04/2020 3:44 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Bad idea, you'll suck your teeth inwards. Suction-hold isn't achieved by sucking, if you just push your tongue upwards and then relax it it will suction on it's own.

Note that lip suction is separate from tongue suction, although both can (should?) be combined into one cohesive movement. Suction very much needs deliberate sucking in my case, lest the tongue fall down from the palate.

Maybe it falls off because of other reasons? It's possible that you have a good suction, but the back of the tongue pulls it down or the hyoid bone is too low. Maybe try training the stylohyoid muscle or the palatoglossus? They're both hard to isolate though, also there's a muscle in between that stops breathing which is hard to relax during those movements.

I've found with mewing my back of the tongue is always slightly up and so the rest of my tongue can stay suctioned on front palate.

 

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Posted : 29/04/2020 8:37 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@Progress

   An interesting idea. But how is a hard suction achieved mechanically, opposed the normal soft suctioning, as well as hard mewing? I can’t really imagine how a hard suction would be achieved. Does it feel a bit like sucking the tongue inwards/backwards?

   It would be interesting to hear you elaborate on this as well, @Azrael, considering your rapid progress. How would you describe the difference between hard suction and hard mewing? It doesn’t sound like something Helmutstrebl did, does it?

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Posted : 01/05/2020 7:40 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @loliboly

@Progress

   An interesting idea. But how is a hard suction achieved mechanically, opposed the normal soft suctioning, as well as hard mewing? I can’t really imagine how a hard suction would be achieved. Does it feel a bit like sucking the tongue inwards/backwards?

   It would be interesting to hear you elaborate on this as well, @Azrael, considering your rapid progress. How would you describe the difference between hard suction and hard mewing? It doesn’t sound like something Helmutstrebl did, does it?

Well, what I meant was when I hard mew and let go of the push to breathe (I can't breathe while mewing yet) the motion of letting-go feels like a somewhat hard suction. Perhaps this happened to helmut as well, although he wasn't really aware? The continuous hard mewing and hard suctioning gives faster results (me splitting the suture for example in mere days, for instance)? Food for thought

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Posted : 02/05/2020 12:02 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@azrael

Oh. I just assumed that you could breathe, since you had results. Think it is unheard of someone making progress like that, without being able to breathe while mewing. Two questions: How are you able to function during the day, mewing like that? Seems very hard to focus on other tasks while holding ones breath! And how much of your tongue can you get up on the roof of your mouth while breathing? Are you able to raise your hyoid rise when not holding your breath?

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Posted : 02/05/2020 1:15 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @loliboly

@azrael

Oh. I just assumed that you could breathe, since you had results. Think it is unheard of someone making progress like that, without being able to breathe while mewing. Two questions: How are you able to function during the day, mewing like that? Seems very hard to focus on other tasks while holding ones breath! And how much of your tongue can you get up on the roof of your mouth while breathing? Are you able to raise your hyoid rise when not holding your breath?

It was a bit difficult in the first couple of days forming the habit but I had visual reminders to mew (wallpaper on my phone, large notes saying "HARD MEW!" on my desk, my wrist's underside") so I never forgot to keep doing it. It is a bit hard to focus on other tasks but I feel like it's slowly becoming second nature.

I can get the posterior third up perfectly and my hyoid rises with it (I couldn't do it before I started to mew, as I didn't have the mind-muscle connection) but since helmutstrebl said that the posterior third wad the most imperative factor for success, I searched the whole internet fo a way to rise it and keep it up. The 'ng' method didn't work and what did was AstroSky's video on raising it — really recommend that if you haven't watched it.

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Posted : 02/05/2020 2:00 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@azrael

   This is interesting. You may not be hard mewing Helmtstrebl-style, but more doing what could be dubbed “block mewing”. I am pretty convinced that in most cases, being able to breathe with the posterior third(PT) up is mostly a matter of control. Not expanding the airways, which is the most common explanation. Being able to breathe with the PT up has the obvious benefits of being easier to sustain. But the question becomes: Would blocking ones airway be more significantly more effective to make progress? Maybe “block mewing” is the answer to why you managed to see such rapid results. It will be very interesting to see when you will be able to breathe while engaging the PT, and if you still will progress at the same rate.

   And yes, AstroSkys video is very helpful. That was the how I learned to engage the PT properly myself.

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Posted : 02/05/2020 9:08 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @loliboly

@azrael

   This is interesting. You may not be hard mewing Helmtstrebl-style, but more doing what could be dubbed “block mewing”. I am pretty convinced that in most cases, being able to breathe with the posterior third(PT) up is mostly a matter of control. Not expanding the airways, which is the most common explanation. Being able to breathe with the PT up has the obvious benefits of being easier to sustain. But the question becomes: Would blocking ones airway be more significantly more effective to make progress? Maybe “block mewing” is the answer to why you managed to see such rapid results. It will be very interesting to see when you will be able to breathe while engaging the PT, and if you still will progress at the same rate.

   And yes, AstroSkys video is very helpful. That was the how I learned to engage the PT properly myself.

Yeah, I think you are correct. Also iirc, helmut wasn't able to mew while breathing for the first 8 months, or so. Which means I still have 5 months, tops, to expand my airways (though I am not sure of the exact mechanism behind it right now). I wonder if he split his suture as well, early on?

Also, AstroSky recently told me that he split his suture last year and his "progress was crazy" after that!

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Posted : 02/05/2020 9:50 am
Loliboly liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @loliboly

@Progress

   An interesting idea. But how is a hard suction achieved mechanically, opposed the normal soft suctioning, as well as hard mewing? I can’t really imagine how a hard suction would be achieved. Does it feel a bit like sucking the tongue inwards/backwards?

   It would be interesting to hear you elaborate on this as well, @Azrael, considering your rapid progress. How would you describe the difference between hard suction and hard mewing? It doesn’t sound like something Helmutstrebl did, does it?

Mechanically suction by the tongue is achieved by first completely pushing the tongue flat on the palate to remove all air and then while keeping the outside of the tongue on the palate you pull the inside of the tongue away from the palate, this causes suction.

 

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Posted : 02/05/2020 10:50 am
Loliboly liked
Progress
Member Moderator

@loliboly Yes, that is how it feels. You increase the strength of the vacuum between the palate and tongue so that the posterior tongue/hyoid raises up and the larynx descends down a bit. You also need to be driving your head upward.

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Posted : 02/05/2020 12:52 pm
Loliboly liked
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@azrael Time will tell. Looking forwards to your future update!

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Posted : 02/05/2020 3:03 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus @progress

Wow! You guys just opened up a now world to me! I now realise during this past year, I never have actually raised the posterior third with suction, but by pushing. However, I don’t find hard suction to be very comfortable. It feels like my vocal chords are tensing up or something. On the other hand, a solid suction combined pushing(hard mewing) feels promising to me. Have any of you tried to combine them?

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Posted : 02/05/2020 3:09 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @loliboly

@auxiliarus @progress

Wow! You guys just opened up a now world to me! I now realise during this past year, I never have actually raised the posterior third with suction, but by pushing. However, I don’t find hard suction to be very comfortable. It feels like my vocal chords are testing up or something. On the other hind, a solid suction combined pushing(hard mewing) feels promising to me. Have any of you tried to combine them?

I'm trying right now, but it's hard to get the back palate in proper suction, especially if your tongue is wider than your palate, even slightly makes it harder.

The thing is it's easy to get suction on the front palate, all you have to do push the tongue flat against the front palate and pull the tongue backwards, but for the back palate, you'd have to do reverse which is what makes this pretty hard, you'd have to first fully flatten your tongue against the back palate and then push the tongue forward against the front palate...

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Posted : 02/05/2020 3:42 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

   How wide is your palate? I myself have very crocked teeth and narrow palette(pics here:  https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/1-year-progress-age-24-25-pictures-included/#post-30497 ), but I am yet able to suction the third with any problems now, thanks to you and @Progress. But I don’t seem to do it the way you describe it. I just suck everything backwards. It nearly feels like I am trying to suck something down my throat. The pushing on the other hand, combined with suction, feels like it goes upwards and maybe a bit forwards.

   I may add that I now really understand how the tongue and neck muscles are connected. Engaging a solid suction makes my neck feel sturdy as a thick tree. I can really feel the neck muscles engaging, about where my neck hairline starts. If I add hard mewing to this, it nearly feels like I am pulling my head away from my neck!

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Posted : 02/05/2020 4:36 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

@loliboly I do think that with proper suction some form of pushing does naturally take place. There comes to exist this push-pull dynamic among the muscles of the tongue and the throat. What you are doing sounds proper, and also similar to the VoiceGym approach @apollo shared in another thread:

 She also focuses on a lower positioned hyoid bone so that more of the tongue is in the throat and less of it is thrust forward against the anterior teeth. She implies that myofunctional therapy might be approaching this problem from the wrong direction by starting with positioning the tip of the tongue on the spot rather than focusing on getting the root of the tongue into its correct adult position in the throat. 

In addition, Astrosky recently described proper tongue posture with the term "infinite swallow", which seems similar to your sentiment about feeling as if you were sucking something down your throat:

when mewing you want a natural lipseal (like a duck face but very subtle) and a good vacuum like suction in your mouth. some might say your sucking your cheeks in when doing this but this is natural and not by force. you want the same feeling of doing a swallow but with your mouth closed and a infinite swallow like feeling thats true mewing

apply it learn it practice and benefit

 

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Posted : 02/05/2020 5:22 pm
Loliboly liked
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

@loliboly I do think that with proper suction some form of pushing does naturally take place. There comes to exist this push-pull dynamic among the muscles of the tongue and the throat. What you are doing sounds proper, and also similar to the VoiceGym approach @apollo shared in another thread:

 She also focuses on a lower positioned hyoid bone so that more of the tongue is in the throat and less of it is thrust forward against the anterior teeth. She implies that myofunctional therapy might be approaching this problem from the wrong direction by starting with positioning the tip of the tongue on the spot rather than focusing on getting the root of the tongue into its correct adult position in the throat. 

The VoiceGym approach definitely seems to be in line what I am feeling. However, I do not feel that the suction creates pushing the way you describe it. There is a clear difference for me between suctioning properly and pushing(which is as how I understand hard mewing).

In addition, Astrosky recently described proper tongue posture with the term "infinite swallow", which seems similar to your sentiment about feeling as if you were sucking something down your throat.

I feel “infinite swallowing” describes the feeling so well that I believe it should be part of the common terms we use here! That description really made understand how to do hard suction as well. I do feel this allows for a new kind of hard mewing, a sort hard mewing 2.0. It is mewing like I have never experienced before! I just described it here to another user: https://the-great-work.org/community/postid/30553/ It also touches on the sensations we discussed before, which I now feel I have in my hands. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts about it.

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Posted : 02/05/2020 7:16 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@progress

Forgot to say: I would also be interesting to hear you elaborate on why you feel a proper suction hold should create some pushing force!

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Posted : 02/05/2020 7:18 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

I can't lip seal fully and push the tongue forward, when I push the tongue forward I feel my lips pouting a little bit. A suction hold on the roof of the mouth is massively helpful though, when you get a really good suction hold it's like your tongue is stuck to the roof of the mouth which makes pushing up and forwards much easier.

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Posted : 02/05/2020 9:29 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

I can't lip seal fully and push the tongue forward, when I push the tongue forward I feel my lips pouting a little bit.

Are you talking about simply hard mewing, or combining it hard suction? And why do you think this happens?

A suction hold on the roof of the mouth is massively helpful though, when you get a really good suction hold it's like your tongue is stuck to the roof of the mouth which makes pushing up and forwards much easier.

I definitely agree with this. The suction make the tongue feel supported somehow, which makes the pushing feel more sustainable. Maybe this is because once the tongue is well suctioned against the palate, less effort is required to get a satisfying push.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 1:52 am
Robbie343
Trusted Member
Posted by: @sinned

I can't lip seal fully and push the tongue forward, when I push the tongue forward I feel my lips pouting a little bit. A suction hold on the roof of the mouth is massively helpful though, when you get a really good suction hold it's like your tongue is stuck to the roof of the mouth which makes pushing up and forwards much easier.

This is where I’m at currently. I have a  Suction hold but yet it feels like an involuntary “hard mew”. Tongue is vacuum sealed to the palate and pushing up but without effort. 

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Posted : 03/05/2020 2:10 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @loliboly

@auxiliarus

   How wide is your palate? I myself have very crocked teeth and narrow palette(pics here:  https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/1-year-progress-age-24-25-pictures-included/#post-30497 ), but I am yet able to suction the third with any problems now, thanks to you and @Progress. But I don’t seem to do it the way you describe it. I just suck everything backwards. It nearly feels like I am trying to suck something down my throat. The pushing on the other hand, combined with suction, feels like it goes upwards and maybe a bit forwards.

   I may add that I now really understand how the tongue and neck muscles are connected. Engaging a solid suction makes my neck feel sturdy as a thick tree. I can really feel the neck muscles engaging, about where my neck hairline starts. If I add hard mewing to this, it nearly feels like I am pulling my head away from my neck!

40-41mm IMW, if you show any results from sucking post them for us, good luck!

 

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Posted : 03/05/2020 5:27 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@loliboly

I differentiate the suction hold you get from the tongue on the roof of the mouth and the one you get when your lips are sealed, they are similar/connected though. Suction hold on the roof of the mouth is where the tongue gets sucked on to the roof of the mouth, the lip seal suction is where the lips get sucked together and to the teeth. For some reason, when I push the tongue forward as I do to try to get forward growth (I feel a slight pressure around the bottom of the nasal area), I cannot get a lip seal suction hold, while my lips are closed, there's not as great a suction against the teeth as there would be if not for pushing the tongue forward, there's a slight pout and a weaker lip seal. The suction hold from the tongue on the roof of the mouth is not affected however, on the contrary, the longer I'm mewing for with force the better the suction gets, I can only guess that it's because the tongue is flatter against the palate and I'm still swallowing even while pushing with the tongue.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 7:18 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

Thank you! I definitely will do so.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 8:06 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@sinned

Ah, I see what you mean. I actually think this may be the case for me as well. I wouldn’t say my lips pout though. It feels more like the negative pressure(np) lessens somewhat, but it is still there I think. It becomes much more subtle though. Maybe you would describe it this way as well(semantics can be such a bore). If so, do you think this is something to be concerned about? I actually feel this amount of np feels more in line with M. Mews statements, as he seems to stress that the np is of a very little amount.

 

Otherwise, if you experience something different than me, then the question is why this pout you speak of arises. Looking forward to you correspondence.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 8:15 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@loliboly

I have the same experience as you I just didn't know how exactly to describe what happens, how you explain it is more accurate.

edit: I gave it it some more thought, I think what's possibly happening is that there's the same amount of pressure on the teeth coming from the lips it's just that "feeling" of suction isn't there because the balance of forces have changed, in other words there's the same amount of force/suction from the lips it's just that there's more pressure/force from the tongue. Having said that I'm not the most read up on intra oral vacuum/pressure, however, would this shift in the balance of forces explain the lessening of the negative pressure?

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Posted : 03/05/2020 8:26 am
Loliboly liked
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@loliboly

I think what's possibly happening is that there's the same amount of pressure on the teeth coming from the lips it's just that "feeling" of suction isn't there because the balance of forces have changed, in other words there's the same amount of force/suction from the lips it's just that there's more pressure/force from the tongue.

Exactly! Cool that we seem to feel the same thing. Have mewed like this for a long time? Would be interesting to know if your experience with it has been positive or not, since I just discovered this myself.

Having said that I'm not the most read up on intra oral vacuum/pressure, however, would this shift in the balance of forces explain the lessening of the negative pressure?

I am not the most well read either, but I guess this is the explanation. Again, the np might not even change, but just feel differently. But my hunch is that this kind of mewing has some promise.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 9:28 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @loliboly

@progress

Forgot to say: I would also be interesting to hear you elaborate on why you feel a proper suction hold should create some pushing force!

To me it seems that without sufficient pushing the pull that it is used to create the vacuum between the tongue and the palate would simply break off the suction. Mostly the edges of the tongue end up pushing, while the inner surface forms the vacuum. Although it also seems that these notions are very subjective. What someone would describe as pure suction would probably be described as a combination of suction and pushing by someone else.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 2:57 pm
RamonT and Loliboly liked
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

Although it also seems that these notions are very subjective. 

Yes. Semantics is certainly not our friend!

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Posted : 03/05/2020 4:41 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@progress

I may add that I just revisited @achilles1 ‘s “18 moths of progress”. It struck me how similar his technique is to the one I seem to have developed these last days. This may clarify the difference in what we are describing to one another.

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Posted : 03/05/2020 4:45 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@progress

I have experimented some more with hard suctioning. There seems to be a way to incorporate some muscle usage which feels different from the one when hard mewing. Rather than pushing straight into the palette, it is more like lifting the tongue away from the floor of the mouth. It seems to make it firm and supportive of the palette and thus feels very postural. Visually, it makes the part of the chin just above the hyoid bone curve inwards. This looks very similar to the inwards curve that can be observed when one is swallowing or holding ones breath. I think this curve may be a positive sign, since it seems to imply that the tongue is fully engaged. This kind of posture still feels more sustainable despite the muscle activation, opposed to the more taxing feeling of hard mewing. Have you experienced something similar? Was this maybe part of what you meant hard suctioning was? What do you think of it?

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Posted : 05/05/2020 5:05 am