Has anyone successfully expanded their lower jaw skeletally?

The effectiveness of lower jaw expanders are questionable. Most people don’t really get expansion they just get tipping of the teeth. Also I feel like just because there isn’t a suture in the lower jaw doesn’t mean it can’t expand, it just doesn’t sit right with me that the lower jaw wouldn’t have a mechanism to expand with the upper. If you get to the point where you expand your upper jaw considerably would there really come a point where the lower jaw would just not expand anymore? I really don’t see how or why the lower jaw wouldn’t follow. If the lower jaw responds to the upper jaw in early development where a person might be mouth breathing and swallowing incorrectly, therefore getting a narrower palate and a narrower lower jaw, I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to do the reverse. To me it just doesn’t make sense, if the goal is to expand so that the tongue and cheeks are in balance that means you should be expanding to as wide as your tongue is, if at some point the lower jaw can’t expand anymore that means you’re bites going to get messed up or your upper jaw will stop expanding even with the forces applied to it by the tongue. I just don’t see how or why there wouldn’t be a way or mechanism for the lower jaw to keep expanding even if we aren’t aware of it now and if the lower jaw doesn’t have a suture.

Also I think we’re looking at the wrong place in terms of mandible expansion. The alveolar ridge isn’t involved in expansion of the mandible is what I believe, it only remodels enough to maintain the tip/angle the teeth. I think the mechanism for mandibular expansion occurs in relation to the maxilla, most people seem to think it’s the teeth keeping in contact and maintaining occlusion as the maxilla expands, which I don’t think is true. I feel like it has something to do with the pterygoid plates or muscles but I’m not sure. If it’s something to do with the muscles then maybe palate expansion with an appliance is the wrong way to go. I’m just throwing stuff out there to be honest since I don’t know how the mandible remodels exactly; maybe it’s a similar process that upswings the jaw? I honestly don’t think it’s through the alveolar ridge of the mandible since mandible expansion with an appliance seems to just tip the teeth, it’s got to be related to the maxilla or the tongue somehow but I can’t pinpoint exactly what.

edit: In addition people point to the fact that the mandible doesn’t have a suture which no duh of course the mandible doesn’t have a suture, it’s the maxilla that gets remodeled from the tongue, the mandible just follows. There’s a reason and a how I just don’t know what it is.

Posted by: sinned

Also I think we’re looking at the wrong place in terms of mandible expansion. The alveolar ridge isn’t involved in expansion of the mandible is what I believe, it only remodels enough to maintain the tip/angle the teeth. …

@sinned,

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I’ll link a helpful post about this topic. I am not sure if you saw abdulrahman’s response to your post in the thread. Here’s the link to a post he made about mandibular expansion. 

He says

“So long there is still growth, the jaws will respond to muscle stimulation. Once growth stops we are only left with changes in the alveolar ridge… The lower jaw continues (growing) until 14 and then slows down considerably until it stops around 18-20 years old. “

So it seems like he’s saying the alveolar ridge can be widened to some extent in an adult. But the mandible itself can only be widened while someone is still growing, until about age 20.

When you say “Also I feel like just because there isn’t a suture in the lower jaw doesn’t mean it can’t expand, it just doesn’t sit right with me that the lower jaw wouldn’t have a mechanism to expand with the upper. If you get to the point where you expand your upper jaw considerably would there really come a point where the lower jaw would just not expand anymore? I really don’t see how or why the lower jaw wouldn’t follow. If the lower jaw responds to the upper jaw in early development where a person might be mouth breathing and swallowing incorrectly, therefore getting a narrower palate and a narrower lower jaw, I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to do the reverse”

I get your question, but it does make sense to me why the lower jaw can only expand a certain amount. When people say this, they mean that yes, you can expand the upper jaw a certain amount (for example 5 mm), and the lower jaw teeth will tip outwards 5mm to maintain occlusion ( so that the teeth of the upper jaw meet the teeth of the lower jaw flat, not at an angle). But expanding the upper jaw more than that will mess up the bite / occlusion. So it’s not that it’s impossible to expand more, but it should not be done because damaging their bite is counterproductive when we are looking for better function.

This device doesn’t have any skeletal effect, just alveolar. It has similar effect to self ligating braces, but obviously works differently. If you use it slowly and you have the potential it will expand your arch by remodeling (not tipping).  

this expansion of lower arch does not look like tipping to me

Posted by: ani3000

this expansion of lower arch does not look like tipping to me

The expansion of the lower to varying degrees is easily possible.  I was more impressed by the maxilla being expanded without drilling and would like a CBCT of that sleep apnea patient.  

Here’s how it works: As the top molars flare out, the bottom ones tip in.  It seems completely illogical, but that’s what happens.  To mitigate against flaring up-top, it’s best to control the lowers (not let sink in).  The lowers ought to have a little tilt in, but nothing serious.  There is a device that is beloved.  It is the rage and it’s not online.  Intermountain labs makes it.  I couldn’t even find a photo of it.  It is basically 3 bars… one near the bottom front teeth… 2 that are securely fixed on back lower molars.  This is NOT a lower lingual holding arch, but instead a rudimentary-looking spring loaded  action one.  The hinges are near the lower incisors.  It is very hip, cool, loved by orthos in conjunction with RPE.  All the rage.  I like it, because the Schwartz gives a manly chin and not enough pressure in the back…as there is a loss of transferred force.  The Schwartz will do to upright, and expand a bit… but the aesthetics of the face are highly attuned and sensitive to arch formation.  That’s why I hate (yes – stong word) it for girls.  Boys it would give a widened looking chin for.

Posted by: ani3000

this expansion of lower arch does not look like tipping to me

Good find @ani3000, where is that from? That is definitely an increase in lower intermolar width, and maybe even a slight increase in lower intercanine width. He gets rid of his lower crowding from the before to the after. I have significant lower crowding… I wonder how they achieved that lower expansion.

It is from here www.beyondyoursmile.net

However upon further inspection I noticed the SLDA appliance looks very similar to the quad helix expander meaning using a quad helix expander on the lower jaw may give the same results as the SLDA appliance since they both put pressure on the jaw tissue not just teeth

the first photo is of the SLDA appliance

Here is the Quad Helix appliance

Darkindigo can you share the name of the expansion appliance for the lower jaw that Intermountain labs makes

I significantly expanded my lower jaw both horizontally as well as lengthening my ramus by over an inch. I’ll post pics maybe in like a year but Mike mew addresses my question in the first question of the great work q&a #2

Yegor_L how did you manage to expand your lower arch, My upper arch has expanded since reversing braces however I feel as though my lower arch is far behind and I would like to expand the lower to match. I am considering getting a lower expander however there are so many I  do not know which to get.

for some odd reason my lower arch did not keep up with the maxilla getting wider even though I have heard here time and time again as the top expands so should the bottom 

I want to get this sorted soon as my maxilla is just getting wider with nothing changing in the bottom

Does anyone have new input on this, @ani3000, @yegor_l, @abdulrahman?

My mandible is very, very short. I have a missing tooth that’s awaiting placement as part of a long and expensive dental plan that includes finishing with invisalign in a year or two, but meanwhile my lower teeth are tipping inward like crazy and actually making my upper ones noticeably crooked, despite them saying that it goes the other way around. For now, mewing doesn’t seem to be able to counteract the empty space of the missing tooth.

I’m wondering if a lower expander from bracesshop (which you can still buy direct as a consumer in the US, right??),used slowly as abdulraman mentioned, can at least hold the teeth/reverse the tipping-in enough to prevent things from going all to hell in the next year or two. This is the one I’m looking at–it appears to me to be removeable. Is that right?

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/4/active-plate?number=0051.270

Posted by: elevee

Does anyone have new input on this, @ani3000, @yegor_l, @abdulrahman?

My mandible is very, very short. I have a missing tooth that’s awaiting placement as part of a long and expensive dental plan that includes finishing with invisalign in a year or two, but meanwhile my lower teeth are tipping inward like crazy and actually making my upper ones noticeably crooked, despite them saying that it goes the other way around. For now, mewing doesn’t seem to be able to counteract the empty space of the missing tooth.

I’m wondering if a lower expander from bracesshop (which you can still buy direct as a consumer in the US, right??),used slowly as abdulraman mentioned, can at least hold the teeth/reverse the tipping-in enough to prevent things from going all to hell in the next year or two. This is the one I’m looking at–it appears to me to be removeable. Is that right?

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/4/active-plate?number=0051.270

It sounds like your upper arch is narrow and the lower arch is tipping inward to compensate. In such case there is no point in expanding the lower arch only. You would need to start with the upper arch.

@Abdulrahman, that could be. However, when I measure my IMW I get something more than 40mm–actually 47 between the nearest points of the molars with a paper impression. I’ll be taking a proper cast to get a more accurate measure as soon as materials arrive in the mail. Maybe it’s large compared to others  but still small compared to what it’s supposed to be? I’ve been mewing/chin tucking most of the day and successfully in my sleep for several months and have seen a slow and steady expansion on top, but the mandible doesn’t seem to be adjusting as its supposed to. At this point, my bite is several mm narrower on the bottom than on top, causing headaches. 

If alveolar bone expands but ae doesnt it will make you look more recessed and jaw smaller.

Posted by: elevee

@Abdulrahman, that could be. However, when I measure my IMW I get something more than 40mm–actually 47 between the nearest points of the molars with a paper impression. I’ll be taking a proper cast to get a more accurate measure as soon as materials arrive in the mail. Maybe it’s large compared to others  but still small compared to what it’s supposed to be? I’ve been mewing/chin tucking most of the day and successfully in my sleep for several months and have seen a slow and steady expansion on top, but the mandible doesn’t seem to be adjusting as its supposed to. At this point, my bite is several mm narrower on the bottom than on top, causing headaches. 

It’s possible, but probably you are measuring incorrectly. Dr. Mike Mew told me once that most people measure the inter molar width wrong.

If your upper arch is widening the lower will follow. Are you chewing your food well, chewing hard gum daily for 30 minutes? The lower arch follows the upper primarily through chewing. 

Yes, I have not made casts yet so the measurement is not perfect, for sure. I should have my materials in a few days to find out.

I was chewing regularly–and it actually shifted my bite so negatively that I started having regular headaches. As I said, there’s an empty space in my mouth where an implant will go, and I think that’s the reason why chewing doesn’t work the way it ought to–there’s just too much space for things to move around. I’m interested in pushing the lower teeth  out to where they were/in line with my current IMW.

it says it a hydrax type expander but it looks like a tiny torture instrument. And didn’t they mispell Hyrax? Something seems a little fishy here. I just don’t get it.

Posted by: @magnumopus

 I am also interested in expanding my lower jaw. I am considering buying this from bracesshop, which is both a upper and lower jaw expander.
https://www.bracesshop.net/en/double-plates/6/double-feed-plates?number=0015&c=58

Btw, does anyone know what the 2 small bent metal things are coming out of the upper expander?

 

These look like they are coming out of where you would want to place your tongue, if you were trying to maintain good tongue posture while having the upper expander in. So I am not sure what they are.

 

I would like to encourage lateral/transverse skeletal growth in the lower jaw, not just tooth tipping. This has limits since the lower jaw does not have a suture, but some sources say it is possible, although only a few millimeters. The lower jaw, specifically the lower intercanine distance, is considered the “bottleneck” of expansion.

For me, my lower jaw is slightly wider, so my lower molars are tipped inward. So the lower jaw is a bottleneck because if I expand my upper jaw until the lower teeth tip so they point straight up to maintain occlusion, I will not be able to expand my upper jaw any further because my lower jaw has tipped maximally. So I would like to expand my lower jaw and upper jaw together. I know the upper jaw is possible at least, but even a couple mm on my lower jaw would be nice.

Has anyone successfully done this? 

As a responde to the first message in this thread (it’s been a while, I know… but just in case).

There are two surgical methods to expand the lower jaw, both are distraction osteogenesis techniques:

– IMDO (intermolar mandibular distraction osteogenesis): by means of two cuts between the first and second molars, this procedure advances the anterior part of the mandible but also expands the back of it, at the level of the molars.

– MSDO (mandibular symphyseal distraction osteogenesis): by means of one cut in the midline, between the lower central incisors, this technique expands anteriorly and increases the intercanine distance.

Posted by: @yegor_l

I significantly expanded my lower jaw both horizontally as well as lengthening my ramus by over an inch. I’ll post pics maybe in like a year but Mike mew addresses my question in the first question of the great work q&a #2

Hey man, know I’m late to the party but did you post any progress pics?

@azrael Not yet. Truth be told, I had a period of about a couple months where I had a bit of a lack of progress due to being very tired and stressed from an internship I was doing. During all this time however, I’ve definitely gained some more personal insight into the geometry of mewing, so I’ll probably post another visual diagram of the force involved some time down the line. 

If there’s one thing I can say – don’t underestimate the importance of applying pressure with the tip of your tongue as well.

@yegor_l

You said you lengthened the ramus successfully. How did you do that? How much did it lengthen and how long did it take?

I have a shorter ramus on one side (because I used to chew on the other) so I’m really curious.

@azrael Yeah I lengthened it pretty significantly, and the cool thing about it is that even if you have some midface regression, the ramus length is still there. You can see that primarily in older celebrities who used to have very forward faces but have since developed worse posture. Honestly, lengthening of the ramus will occur as long as you mew with correct posture. If not, then you are either very recessed, or aren’t doing it correctly.

I know some people give hard mewing a bad rap here, but personally, it helped me a lot with extending ramus and achieve good forward growth overall.

Posted by: @yegor_l

@azrael Yeah I lengthened it pretty significantly, and the cool thing about it is that even if you have some midface regression, the ramus length is still there. You can see that primarily in older celebrities who used to have very forward faces but have since developed worse posture. Honestly, lengthening of the ramus will occur as long as you mew with correct posture. If not, then you are either very recessed, or aren’t doing it correctly.

I know some people give hard mewing a bad rap here, but personally, it helped me a lot with extending ramus and achieve good forward growth overall.

 

Interesting. Did you chew gum, by the way?

@azrael I used falim gum when I first started but it’s honestly a waste of time. 90% of your progress will come from constant correct posture, not chewing habits.

Posted by: @yegor_l

@azrael I used falim gum when I first started but it’s honestly a waste of time. 90% of your progress will come from constant correct posture, not chewing habits.

 

But chewing hard food and gum hypertrophies the masetters, right? And that too causes/enables the growth of more bone to accompany the new, bigger masetters? At least that’s what I read in a post in here. What are your thoughts on that?

@azrael It definitely helps to some extent, but the majority of jaw growth happens as a direct result of forward maxilla growth. Your lower jaw grows forward to meet where your upper jaw is growing. I know it doesn’t seem to make intuitive sense that pushing your upper jaw makes your lower jaw grow but it does.