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Has anyone successfully expanded their lower jaw skeletally?  

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MagnumOpus
(@magnumopus)
Active Member

 I am also interested in expanding my lower jaw. I am considering buying this from bracesshop, which is both a upper and lower jaw expander.
https://www.bracesshop.net/en/double-plates/6/double-feed-plates?number=0015&c=58

Btw, does anyone know what the 2 small bent metal things are coming out of the upper expander?

UpperExpander

 

These look like they are coming out of where you would want to place your tongue, if you were trying to maintain good tongue posture while having the upper expander in. So I am not sure what they are.

 

I would like to encourage lateral/transverse skeletal growth in the lower jaw, not just tooth tipping. This has limits since the lower jaw does not have a suture, but some sources say it is possible, although only a few millimeters. The lower jaw, specifically the lower intercanine distance, is considered the "bottleneck" of expansion.

For me, my lower jaw is slightly wider, so my lower molars are tipped inward. So the lower jaw is a bottleneck because if I expand my upper jaw until the lower teeth tip so they point straight up to maintain occlusion, I will not be able to expand my upper jaw any further because my lower jaw has tipped maximally. So I would like to expand my lower jaw and upper jaw together. I know the upper jaw is possible at least, but even a couple mm on my lower jaw would be nice.

Has anyone successfully done this? 

Quote
Posted : 26/02/2019 8:22 pm
sinned
(@sinned)
Trusted Member

The effectiveness of lower jaw expanders are questionable. Most people don't really get expansion they just get tipping of the teeth. Also I feel like just because there isn't a suture in the lower jaw doesn't mean it can't expand, it just doesn't sit right with me that the lower jaw wouldn't have a mechanism to expand with the upper. If you get to the point where you expand your upper jaw considerably would there really come a point where the lower jaw would just not expand anymore? I really don't see how or why the lower jaw wouldn't follow. If the lower jaw responds to the upper jaw in early development where a person might be mouth breathing and swallowing incorrectly, therefore getting a narrower palate and a narrower lower jaw, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do the reverse. To me it just doesn't make sense, if the goal is to expand so that the tongue and cheeks are in balance that means you should be expanding to as wide as your tongue is, if at some point the lower jaw can't expand anymore that means you're bites going to get messed up or your upper jaw will stop expanding even with the forces applied to it by the tongue. I just don't see how or why there wouldn't be a way or mechanism for the lower jaw to keep expanding even if we aren't aware of it now and if the lower jaw doesn't have a suture.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 2 times by sinned
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Posted : 26/02/2019 9:09 pm
sinned
(@sinned)
Trusted Member

Also I think we're looking at the wrong place in terms of mandible expansion. The alveolar ridge isn't involved in expansion of the mandible is what I believe, it only remodels enough to maintain the tip/angle the teeth. I think the mechanism for mandibular expansion occurs in relation to the maxilla, most people seem to think it's the teeth keeping in contact and maintaining occlusion as the maxilla expands, which I don't think is true. I feel like it has something to do with the pterygoid plates or muscles but I'm not sure. If it's something to do with the muscles then maybe palate expansion with an appliance is the wrong way to go. I'm just throwing stuff out there to be honest since I don't know how the mandible remodels exactly; maybe it's a similar process that upswings the jaw? I honestly don't think it's through the alveolar ridge of the mandible since mandible expansion with an appliance seems to just tip the teeth, it's got to be related to the maxilla or the tongue somehow but I can't pinpoint exactly what.

edit: In addition people point to the fact that the mandible doesn't have a suture which no duh of course the mandible doesn't have a suture, it's the maxilla that gets remodeled from the tongue, the mandible just follows. There's a reason and a how I just don't know what it is.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by sinned
ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/02/2019 4:50 am
MagnumOpus
(@magnumopus)
Active Member
Posted by: sinned

Also I think we're looking at the wrong place in terms of mandible expansion. The alveolar ridge isn't involved in expansion of the mandible is what I believe, it only remodels enough to maintain the tip/angle the teeth. ...

@sinned,

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I'll link a helpful post about this topic. I am not sure if you saw abdulrahman's response to your post in the thread. Here's the link to a post he made about mandibular expansion. 

He says

"So long there is still growth, the jaws will respond to muscle stimulation. Once growth stops we are only left with changes in the alveolar ridge... The lower jaw continues (growing) until 14 and then slows down considerably until it stops around 18-20 years old. "

So it seems like he's saying the alveolar ridge can be widened to some extent in an adult. But the mandible itself can only be widened while someone is still growing, until about age 20.

When you say "Also I feel like just because there isn't a suture in the lower jaw doesn't mean it can't expand, it just doesn't sit right with me that the lower jaw wouldn't have a mechanism to expand with the upper. If you get to the point where you expand your upper jaw considerably would there really come a point where the lower jaw would just not expand anymore? I really don't see how or why the lower jaw wouldn't follow. If the lower jaw responds to the upper jaw in early development where a person might be mouth breathing and swallowing incorrectly, therefore getting a narrower palate and a narrower lower jaw, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do the reverse"

I get your question, but it does make sense to me why the lower jaw can only expand a certain amount. When people say this, they mean that yes, you can expand the upper jaw a certain amount (for example 5 mm), and the lower jaw teeth will tip outwards 5mm to maintain occlusion ( so that the teeth of the upper jaw meet the teeth of the lower jaw flat, not at an angle). But expanding the upper jaw more than that will mess up the bite / occlusion. So it's not that it's impossible to expand more, but it should not be done because damaging their bite is counterproductive when we are looking for better function.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by MagnumOpus
ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/02/2019 9:19 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member

This device doesn't have any skeletal effect, just alveolar. It has similar effect to self ligating braces, but obviously works differently. If you use it slowly and you have the potential it will expand your arch by remodeling (not tipping).  

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/02/2019 11:02 pm
ani3000
(@ani3000)
Eminent Member

this expansion of lower arch does not look like tipping to me

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2019 10:22 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: ani3000

this expansion of lower arch does not look like tipping to me

The expansion of the lower to varying degrees is easily possible.  I was more impressed by the maxilla being expanded without drilling and would like a CBCT of that sleep apnea patient.  

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by darkindigo
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Posted : 28/02/2019 2:09 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member

Here's how it works: As the top molars flare out, the bottom ones tip in.  It seems completely illogical, but that's what happens.  To mitigate against flaring up-top, it's best to control the lowers (not let sink in).  The lowers ought to have a little tilt in, but nothing serious.  There is a device that is beloved.  It is the rage and it's not online.  Intermountain labs makes it.  I couldn't even find a photo of it.  It is basically 3 bars... one near the bottom front teeth... 2 that are securely fixed on back lower molars.  This is NOT a lower lingual holding arch, but instead a rudimentary-looking spring loaded  action one.  The hinges are near the lower incisors.  It is very hip, cool, loved by orthos in conjunction with RPE.  All the rage.  I like it, because the Schwartz gives a manly chin and not enough pressure in the back...as there is a loss of transferred force.  The Schwartz will do to upright, and expand a bit... but the aesthetics of the face are highly attuned and sensitive to arch formation.  That's why I hate (yes - stong word) it for girls.  Boys it would give a widened looking chin for.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by darkindigo
ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2019 2:19 pm
MagnumOpus
(@magnumopus)
Active Member
Posted by: ani3000

this expansion of lower arch does not look like tipping to me

Good find @ani3000, where is that from? That is definitely an increase in lower intermolar width, and maybe even a slight increase in lower intercanine width. He gets rid of his lower crowding from the before to the after. I have significant lower crowding... I wonder how they achieved that lower expansion.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago 2 times by MagnumOpus
ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2019 2:30 pm
ani3000
(@ani3000)
Eminent Member

It is from here www.beyondyoursmile.net

However upon further inspection I noticed the SLDA appliance looks very similar to the quad helix expander meaning using a quad helix expander on the lower jaw may give the same results as the SLDA appliance since they both put pressure on the jaw tissue not just teeth

the first photo is of the SLDA appliance

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2019 4:56 pm
ani3000
(@ani3000)
Eminent Member

Here is the Quad Helix appliance

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2019 4:57 pm
ani3000
(@ani3000)
Eminent Member

Darkindigo can you share the name of the expansion appliance for the lower jaw that Intermountain labs makes

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/03/2019 8:10 pm
Yegor_L
(@yegor_l)
Eminent Member

I significantly expanded my lower jaw both horizontally as well as lengthening my ramus by over an inch. I'll post pics maybe in like a year but Mike mew addresses my question in the first question of the great work q&a #2

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/03/2019 6:55 am
ani3000
(@ani3000)
Eminent Member

Yegor_L how did you manage to expand your lower arch, My upper arch has expanded since reversing braces however I feel as though my lower arch is far behind and I would like to expand the lower to match. I am considering getting a lower expander however there are so many I  do not know which to get.

for some odd reason my lower arch did not keep up with the maxilla getting wider even though I have heard here time and time again as the top expands so should the bottom 

I want to get this sorted soon as my maxilla is just getting wider with nothing changing in the bottom

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/03/2019 9:29 am
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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