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Hard Mewing vs Soft Mewing - a video answer by Mike Mew  

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TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

Hi everyone, Mike has uploaded the first in a series of his Q&A answers for us. It's posted on TGW's Youtube Channel, Subscription+Like+Comments are appreciated to boost us for future content that I make myself.

Here is the YouTube link and description:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhWSuyLkqVI&feature=youtu.be

The question of whether hard mewing works, or produces faster results, is a central topic of debate for those sharing their results online. Many people have shared their hard mewing before and after results and attribute their success to this increased pressure. In this video for The Great Work's forum members, and the members of the Orthotropics Patreon, Mike answers with his understanding of what is hard mewing and why those doing may have seen better results - and that there may not be as much of a distinction between hard and soft mewing as previously thought.
 
Mike will be uploading future Q&A videos to the Orthotropics Patreon, and we will put them on TGW's YouTube Channel a week after. Join Mikes Patreon to get early access: https://www.patreon.com/orthotropics
 
 
 
 
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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:22 pm
Loliboly, moemoe, Apollo and 1 people liked
streiderstorm
Active Member

Hi i'm new here and i've been soft mewing for quite some time now but recently added hard mewing to my routine and although it has given me good results like cheekbones being more prominent, eyes more hooded and lips symmetrical. I seem to have a muscle under my chin which has made a sort of a bulge, so will this go away if i switch back to soft mewing ? 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Loliboly liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @streiderstorm

Hi i'm new here and i've been soft mewing for quite some time now but recently added hard mewing to my routine and although it has given me good results like cheekbones being more prominent, eyes more hooded and lips symmetrical. I seem to have a muscle under my chin which has made a sort of a bulge, so will this go away if i switch back to soft mewing ? 

Hello, welcome to the forum! Your improvements sound interesting, mind sharing a progress pic? Also, how old are you? How long have you been mewing for?

As for your question, from a very successful mewer's (called helmutstrebl) and my personal experience, this bulge could be because of the activation of digastric muscles under the chin and ramii. It happens from greater engagement of the tip and middle of the tongue than the posterior third. Do you have a similar bulge or relatively poorer jaw definition beneath your ears compared to the front?

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
streiderstorm
Active Member

@azrael i just turned 24 this january and i learned about mewing when i was 19 but didn't practice it properly and only had my tongue engaged at the tip and the middle at least i think that's how i had been doing it i just swallowed and noticed that my jaw had more definition and skin wasn't sagging so kept that position without thinking about it too much  but i was practicing chin tuck and proper chewing and swallowing and over the years my breathing improved naturally without me noticing, it's like my nostrils opened up and sorry i don't have any proper progress pics unfortunately only random selfies  as i wasn't paying too much attention to the results and i did used to be a bit chubby and had a beard back then so not sure if old photos of me would be of use and no the poor definition is only noticeable from the front not that severe just a slight bump and from beneath the ears the jawline is pretty sharp and you can't see it. Only recently been a month i started taking it seriously i added neck curls while mewing into my routine and applied force to my tongue and felt like cracks in my face all around and my jaw was sore and there was this burning sensation beneath my jaw in above the adam's apple area when i was pushing hard and there was tension in my cheeks and noticed my cheek bones moving and when i touch the bone they are more protruding and slowly i started noticing these changes but i guess you're right i don't think i was applying that much force in the posterior third now that i think about it hope it goes away once i abstain from hard mewing

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @streiderstorm

@azrael i just turned 24 this january and i learned about mewing when i was 19 but didn't practice it properly and only had my tongue engaged at the tip and the middle at least i think that's how i had been doing it i just swallowed and noticed that my jaw had more definition and skin wasn't sagging so kept that position without thinking about it too much  but i was practicing chin tuck and proper chewing and swallowing and over the years my breathing improved naturally without me noticing, it's like my nostrils opened up and sorry i don't have any proper progress pics unfortunately only random selfies  as i wasn't paying too much attention to the results and i did used to be a bit chubby and had a beard back then so not sure if old photos of me would be of use and no the poor definition is only noticeable from the front not that severe just a slight bump and from beneath the ears the jawline is pretty sharp and you can't see it. Only recently been a month i started taking it seriously i added neck curls while mewing into my routine and applied force to my tongue and felt like cracks in my face all around and my jaw was sore and there was this burning sensation beneath my jaw in above the adam's apple area when i was pushing hard and there was tension in my cheeks and noticed my cheek bones moving and when i touch the bone they are more protruding and slowly i started noticing these changes but i guess you're right i don't think i was applying that much force in the posterior third now that i think about it hope it goes away once i abstain from hard mewing

So you have been mewing for 5 years, okay, now I'm super interested. I really don't mind your former beard, any pictures you can post (if you are fine with posting, that is) will be immensely helpful since we don't often see results from such long term mewing cases (such as AstroSky), especially in adults.

As for your bulge, I'm fairly certain that it is indeed the overuse of the tip and the middle third with little engagement of the posterior third that's causing it. Perfecting the technique should probably help in reducing the appearance of the bulge.

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
streiderstorm
Active Member

this is the best comparison i could find so take it as you will the beard one was a year back and the clean shaven one was taken just yesterday 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Azrael liked
streiderstorm
Active Member

@ovosoundszn idk man i feel like my cheekbones have improved or maybe i'm just looking too much into it 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@Azreal

Just to be clear, do you get any bulge at all when hard mewing?

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ovosoundszn

@streiderstorm 0 results bruh tbh. It is what it is man. 

This is just the difference from last year. We have no idea where he was face-wise 5 years ago (the time he started to mew).

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
streiderstorm
Active Member

@azrael yeah my face was pretty oval tbh i'll find it and post it 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Azrael liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @streiderstorm

this is the best comparison i could find so take it as you will the beard one was a year back and the clean shaven one was taken just yesterday 

Thanks for posting these! Your eye area is looking really good (well supported, hooded, symmetrical) with a neutral Canthal tilt. Were they like that always or did they improve with mewing? (I assume it's from mewing?)

Would be amazing if you could post one of your pre-mewing pics as well to really get an idea of your starting point.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @loliboly

@Azreal

Just to be clear, do you get any bulge at all when hard mewing?

Used to get until recently, since my technique was far from perfect. I need to get my progress pics again soon to see if there's has been any improvement near the ramii (there's improvement of the bulge under the chin, though).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
streiderstorm
Active Member

@azrael these are some of the pre mewing pics i could find on my drive i think i have more on my old pc will have to look for them to be sure 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
streiderstorm
Active Member

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
streiderstorm
Active Member
streiderstorm
Active Member

@azrael can you tell me how you perfected your technique for hard mewing ?  i can't seem to be able to exert that much on the back as i can on the front and the middle 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @streiderstorm

@azrael can you tell me how you perfected your technique for hard mewing ?  i can't seem to be able to exert that much on the back as i can on the front and the middle 

I simply went in front of a mirror and placed my tongue in a way that made no bulge whatsoever. I practiced it, and now it's so ingrained that I can't go back to my previous way. I used to keep my tip on my incissive papilla before and after adjusting my technique, the tip is now slightly behind (on the ridges).

I need to further improve my technique and placement so I could keep the tip on the incissive papilla with the posterior third's current engagement intact.

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
streiderstorm
Active Member

@azrael thank you so much i'll keep you updated with my progress

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Azrael liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

Just FYI, Mike's talked about hard mewing in a video response for forum users. I've seen the response, we'll try to get it posted soon

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
streiderstorm
Active Member

@admin thanks that would help out a lot for beginners 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@admin

For the ones of us who are eager, would it be possible to summarise what he said about hard mewing?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: @loliboly

@admin

For the ones of us who are eager, would it be possible to summarise what he said about hard mewing?

@loliboly

Soft force tends to win out over hard. The bone responds to soft tissue, the soft tissue doesn't need to use a lot of force to make the bone remodel. The example is given of a tumor in someone's face expanding their jaws/skull to a huge size with only a tiny bit of force.

Mike theorizes that what hard mewing actually does is retrain the muscle memory and that is why those people get results. They aren't actually pushing hard all day, it's just the periods that they do push hard leaves an imprint on the muscle memory and thus they end up soft mewing throughout the day. 

The logic is the same as in the floating arm trick (video if you're unfamiliar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VB5QyKBavU)

Press the backs of your hands against the inside of a door frame for 30 seconds—as if you’re trying to widen the frame—and then let your arms down; you’ll feel something odd. Your arms will float up from your sides, as if lifted by an external force. Scientists call this Kohnstamm phenomenon, but you may know it as the floating arm trick. Now, researchers have studied what happens in a person’s brain and nerve cells when they repress this involuntary movement, holding their arms tightly by their sides instead of letting them float up. Two theories existed as to how this repression worked: The brain could send a positive “push down” signal to the arm muscles at the same time as the involuntary “lift up” signal was being transmitted to cancel it out; or the brain could entirely block the involuntary signal at the root of the nerves. The new study, which analyzed brain scans and muscle activity recordings from 39 volunteers, found that the latter was true—when a person stifles Kohnstamm phenomenon, the involuntary “lift” signal is blocked before it reaches the muscle. The difference between the repression mechanisms may seem subtle, but understanding it could help people repress other involuntary movements—including the tremors associated with Parkinson’s disease and the tics associated with Tourette syndrome, the team reports online today in the Proceedings of the Royal Society B.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/09/science-floating-arm-trick

 

 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Autokrator, moemoe, ayla mao and 5 people liked
sinned
Estimable Member

@admin

Interesting, I for one didn't support using too much force because in my experience you can't hold it for long, but it's only to be expected that you can't mew with 100% force/effort all day, even though you aren't holding it all day it will still help in the long run by enforcing the muscle memory and making mewing 24/7 with light/medium force easier. I tried the door thing and wow it actually works, that's amazing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@ovosoundszn

It seems Mike Mew is saying that soft mewing is what ultimately has given hard mewers results. The hard mewing has just been the means by which the habit of soft mewing has become the hard mewers default posture. In this sense, he is saying that hard mewing can be effective, without discrediting soft mewing.

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@ovosoundszn

It's hard to say because soft mewing and hard mewing are too vague and general. I think as a general rule, the longer you're mewing for and the more force you're using the faster you'll get results, just putting the tongue on the roof of the mouth isn't going to do much unless you're young. Of course it isn't that simple, it's not really possible to use 100% force the whole day, however, I think the most amount of force possible that you can do without too much effort or pain is optimal and short bouts of 100% effort to enforce the muscle memory.

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@ovosoundszn

Yes I believe that different versions of mewing have different effects on results cause the forces are distributed differently in each technique. There is a long debate going on this forum about what method is the most effective. Its still down to force though because the stronger you mew, the faster the change in any technique 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Autokrator and RamonT liked
sinned
Estimable Member

@ovosoundszn

Pushing up and tongue ballooning is similar, when you push up the tongue flattens and expands. You can't judge force on any objective measures, therefore you have to mostly experiment and go off how it feels. Personally, when I feel I'm doing it correctly is when I feel pressure around the molar area/inside of the palate (pushing up), and pressure around the base of the nasal area (pushing forward).

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@streiderstorm

Are you able to raise your hyoid bone? In any case: Start practicing raising the posterior third towards the palette, while keeping the rest of the tongue way from the palette. You know you are doing it correctly if you can see your hyoid bone rise up. This may be easier to do with your mouth open. While keeping your mouth open, you can also try looking inside and observe wether the back of your tongue goes up against the palate. When you feel secure doing this, see if you can increase the force in the posterior third. After learning this, do a suction hold and practice the same motion you just practiced. If you did the first two steps properly, you should have no problem doing the last one. Let me know if this helps you out!

Cheers

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Adam liked
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

@loliboly So is mewing more about rising hyoid bone, then posterior third and the rest?

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@adam

To my understanding, the hyoid will naturally raise as the posterior third is being engaged. This is why observing the amount of raising of the hyoid is a good indication of a persons tongue posture.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 5:32 pm
Adam liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I've merged a recent thread into this one to keep the discussion more collected

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Posted : 26/05/2020 5:36 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

Christ, this content is so much more interesting and in-depth than the recent videos on the Orthotropics channel. Glad I know about it now. This line of questioning has been on my mind for a long time. I'm entirely convinced that hard mewing achieves faster results (or results at all) in adults so it's not a matter of if to me but why?

First off; does hard mewing (greater tongue force) in and of itself generate faster changes in bone formation?

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much information on how different pressures affect this sort of thing. While we're all familiar with Wolff's law and how bone doesn't require much force in order to adapt to incredible degrees over time (like the person in Mikes video), I think that many people have promptly concluded that greater forces don't increase the rate of change and are therefore pointless. My thinking is that adult skulls are often far more rigid with more fused sutures than younger ones (and possibly undergo bone morphing at a decreased rate after adolescence). If you're the sort of person who can sense radiating pressures/sounds around your skull when you mew, this clearly means that far more of your bone tissue is being subject to these forces and since more of the hard tissue is being stimulated, more of it is going to adapt to these pressures in accordance with Wolff's law. Imagine pressing down on jello compared to a stone: the former has a far greater area of matter that is being subjected to these pressures. My skull is very rigid; when I mew the only sensations I experience are in my tongue and the roof of my mouth, however when I hard mew it is likely that at least somewhat more of these forces are being translated to greater depths and thus encouraging more bone tissue to morph.

Secondly, (and I think far more importantly); is hard mewing more about the fact that it results in improved resting muscle tone and/or a stronger unconscious neural connection i.e mikes break pedal analogy ?

When I was first introduced to mewing I was told the basics like lips together, teeth together and tongue on the roof of the mouth. I've always done the first two but not the latter. For about two months I lamented my frustration with the suction hold because while I could execute the adult tongue sweep/swallow/suction hold perfectly, whenever I got distracted or talked my tongue would fall off the roof of the mouth and it wouldn't go back up until I made the conscious effort. Every time I woke up my tongue would be detached from the palate. Many people told me nonsense like "don't worry, it will become a habit". That's when I started to investigate things like tongue chewing with gum and tongue push-ups (Where you do an extreme chintuck and then swallow or push up with your posterior third to push the your palate away, thus giving your tongue an incredible work out). Within a week of doing this everyday for about 15 minutes, my tongue effortlessly and naturally found itself pressing against my palate, even after opening my mouth or as I woke up. This is not habitual but clearly instead about resting muscle tone. My tongue was exerting upwards/forwards force nearly all the time and would press against the palate even without a suction hold. It is also likely that my tongue may have also gotten marginally larger (like any muscle that is exercised) which would probably help facilitate mewing. As a side note, I also think that it's harder to get distracted from hard-mewing than soft/passive mewing so that could mean people in the former category are more consistently practicing good posture.

The way I see it is this: hard mewings greater forces alone may play a role in increased expansion (I suspect, but do not know). What I do know is though is that hard mewing combined with things like good posture, chintucks and chewing (all muscle based exercises) greatly increase the power of your resting muscle tone to the point where it will exert forces without you trying, all the time. Do strength exercises that work out your muscle groups that are fundamental to mewing like your [Rude Language will not be tolerated], back, core, neck, jaw and tongue. You will inevitably end up more inclined to naturally adopt postures that facilitate proper mewing when you are awake *and* asleep. I shouldn't need to tell you guys how worth it is to wake up and find yourself in a chin tuck position, your  teeth together and your tongue pressing against firmly against the palate. Before I wasn't even able to keep my tongue on the palate while unconscious i.e I would be losing gains while asleep. Now, my tongue not only acts like a retainer but is likely exerting strong forces passively which would aid in direct expansion.

Here's my exercise: Do an extreme chintuck (far as you can go without it being too uncomfortable). Look at the tip of your nose or in a mirror and then do a proper swallow or raise your hyoid (hard mew). You will probably observe that your head rotates up slightly despite the chintuck. If not or if you can't do a swallow, make the chintuck less powerful. In order to make a muscle stronger it needs to go through a range of motion while being subjected to ever increasing loads over time. (sound familiar?) I think many of us underestimate the importance of the back of the tongues strength as it can't really be worked out with things like chewing gum.

cheers

ReplyQuote
Posted : 26/05/2020 7:36 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

I don't see why Mike tells about clenching when doing hard mewing, i hardly engage masseter at all when hard mewing, am i doing something wrong?

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Posted : 26/05/2020 7:53 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

na, you're not meant to clench. just aim to keep the teeth together, some light molar contact is fine though. you want the teeth close together you can maintain good occlusion and so your tongue can be as close to the palate as possible

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Posted : 26/05/2020 8:01 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @adam

I don't see why Mike tells about clenching when doing hard mewing, i hardly engage masseter at all when hard mewing, am i doing something wrong?

It's not that the teeth should be clenching. It's that the masseters closing the jaws together antagonize the force of the tongue pushing them apart, so that the teeth remain in light contact as you increase the force against the palate. Here are a couple old posts about increasing the resting muscle tone of both the tongue and masseters so that passive "soft" mewing gets closer to the force of active "hard" mewing. 
Posted by: @apollo

Dr. Mew talks about an inner and outer U-shape (  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijFkcLMmSJI ). "The inner U shape is determined by the tongue. The outer U shape is determined by the muscles of mastication." Mew believes that the resting position of the tongue and the resting muscle tone (and the balance of the antagonism between the tongue pushing the jaws apart while the masseters pull the jaws together) are more important than their absolute strength. There are articles on this forum about maintaining this balance to avoid dropping your mandible or buxism during sleep. So, the way I think about it, we are developing the tongue muscle to push up and forward on the maxilla, but without adequate resting muscle tone of the masseters, pushing up with the tongue just causes the mandible to drop down. Hard chewing develops the muscle tone to keep the teeth in light contact so that the force of the tongue goes toward pushing up on the maxilla rather than just swinging down the mandible.

Posted by: @apollo

Remember that "hard" and "soft" are all relative terms. I think of "hard mewing" as actively pushing up forcefully with my tongue, while "soft mewing" is just passive good oral posture with the tongue firmly engaging the palate without conscious effort. However, as you build up the resting muscle tone of the tongue and the masseters, the actual force of passive tongue posture increases. I use active/hard tongue pressure as an exercise to help build up my passive resting tone.

 

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Posted : 26/05/2020 8:38 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

@apollo

Ah i see now, but i think hard mewing shoudnt be done against hard palate, so the masseters woudnt be antagonist (i thought it was a consensus). 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/05/2020 3:57 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @adam

@apollo

Ah i see now, but i think hard mewing shoudnt be done against hard palate, so the masseters woudnt be antagonist (i thought it was a consensus). 

 

Since every case is unique, and all of the evidence is anecdotal and self-reported, I don't know that there's a consensus about much of anything. In the video, Dr. Mew talks about how a patient might believe they are devoted to always maintaining a certain posture, but an outside observer can see that they aren't so consistent, or they believe they are doing one thing when they are actually doing something else. People in the comments sections of Dr. Mew's videos often do the same thing, calling him out for mouth breathing, bad neck posture, or other lapses. So even when someone says practicing x, y, and z really improved their structure, how do we know what factor was determinative, what was a confounder, or even if they are really doing what they report? Your version of "hard mewing" technique might be different than the next person's. If I'm understanding you correctly, your definition of "hard mewing" involves pressing forcefully with just the posterior 1/3 of the tongue against the soft palate, while "softly" resting the middle and tip of the tongue across the hard palate. Is that right? I don't think that's what everyone or even most people mean when they say "hard mewing." @loliboly recently tried to summarize the variations, and seems to call your technique "hard back mewing". I think there's a lot of crossover between these strategies, but it's helpful to try and agree on a definition.

Posted by: @loliboly

Hard mewing

Hard mewing is generally understood as deliberate pushing of the tongue into the palate. The direction of the push may be forwards, upwards or in both directions. Forwards movement seems to be what causes the infamous bulge beneath the chin. May be more effective to speed up facial growth. It has been hinted that Mike Mew, while being a proponent of soft mewing, thinks hard mewing may be an effective way to ingrain the habit of proper tongue posture.

There are different forms of hard mewing. The differences between them has to do with what part of the tongue that is in contact with the upper palate and what parts exert the pushing force.

1. Hard tip/incisive mewing

As in incisive mewing, only the tip is in contact with the upper palate and pushes hard into the n-spot. The rest of the tongue lies at the floor of the mouth.

 

2. Hard intermediate mewing

As in intermediate mewing, the tip and middle of the tongue is in contact with the upper palate. There are three versions.

a) The force is focused solely on the tip

b) The force is focused solely on the middle

c) The focus is focused on both the tip and the middle.

@Azrael reported splitting his mid palatal suture with technique a), combined with block mewing. 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/midpalatal-suture-split/

 

3. Hard back mewing

The whole tongue is in contact with the upper palate. The force is focused solely or mostly on the posterior third. This is the technique @helmutstrebl has reported to be using.

 

4. Full hard mewing

The whole tongue in in contact with, and pushes hard into the whole of the upper palate.

 

Block mewing

An extreme kind of hard mewing. Is also found on the extreme end on the continuum along breath and snore mewing. After swallowing, the tongue is kept in place and pushing hard into the roof of the mouth, thus completely blocking the airway. May induce various kinds of sensations in the the whole of the face. 

@Azrael reported splitting his mid palatal suture with this technique, combined with hard intermediate mewing(version a). 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/midpalatal-suture-split/

 

Hard mewing 2.0

Combination of the infinite swallow/active hard suction, center mewing and hard back mewing/full hard mewing. A very intense version of hard mewing. In addition to all the sensation its constituents induces, it also makes it feel like the cranium is being lifted away from the cranium. While somewhat different, @achilles1 described a similar technique in his 18 month progress report.

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Posted : 27/05/2020 12:35 pm
Adam liked
ayla mao
Active Member
Posted by: @krollic

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much information on how different pressures affect this sort of thing.

Well at least according to this one study they did find that more force equals more remodelling.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25209333/

Time is still more important, but if you can hardmew 24/7 I guess it should give more results than just mewing 24/7. Even if it's not 24/7 (because you have to sleep lol) just pushing hard with the tongue should help with muscle memory and easier mewing in sleep. At least I see it that way.

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Posted : 27/05/2020 12:42 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

@apollo Yes you are absolutely right. I've said that because i recently read that pressing hard on hard palate can be damaging (but dont remember exact reasoning) so i was biased. Probably one could say same thing about back mewing so its a big unknown.

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Posted : 27/05/2020 1:09 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @admin

I've merged a recent thread into this one to keep the discussion more collected

That's a relief, I had a disturbing feeling of dejavu half way through the thread.

Satisfyingly elaborate and biaseless answer from Mike. Though it did not offer new information, it validated the debate regarding hard and soft forces with a premise that we can all agree with: our current understanding is not clear enough to conclude either way.

 

 

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Posted : 27/05/2020 1:59 pm
TGW liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ovosoundszn

@streiderstorm 0 results bruh tbh. It is what it is man. @Azrael notice how op's neck muscles aren't hypertrophied like at all. I remember seeing salludons after photo where his neck was really hypertrophied especially his scms. Do you think thats a sign of proper tongue posture? Obviously its a sign of correct neck posture.

Salluman did good training and was very fit, also he's balding early maybe he did AAS.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/05/2020 7:49 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member

What's up with Mike's face? I feel like he's over-doing his chewing. Ridicilously bloated/huge masseters.

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Posted : 27/05/2020 7:52 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ayla-mao
Posted by: @krollic

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much information on how different pressures affect this sort of thing.

Well at least according to this one study they did find that more force equals more remodelling.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25209333/

Time is still more important, but if you can hardmew 24/7 I guess it should give more results than just mewing 24/7. Even if it's not 24/7 (because you have to sleep lol) just pushing hard with the tongue should help with muscle memory and easier mewing in sleep. At least I see it that way.

I suggest you actually read the study before making any claims, the study found that max resorption happened at zero force, while max bone growth happened at 0,015 MPa. After crossing 0,020 MPa the amount of growth and resorption was minimal, both almost zero.

They even say this themselves :

Correlating bone remodelling sites with tissue loading. We find that bone resorption and formation are strongly correlated with local tissue loading and that bone resorption frequency peaks at low strain energy density (SED; average median¼0.0088MPa), whereas bone formation frequency peaks at high SED (average median¼0.0141MPa; Fig. 2a)

Looking at their graph, the maximum amount of bone remodelling happens at 0.01 mPA.

If you're trying to shorten the maxilla, using high forces may be indeed counter-productive. And if you're trying to grow bone, again, high forces may still be counter-productive, it depends on how much force the tongue and it's extrinsic muscles can output on the palate/maxilla.

Just to demonstrate what mega pascals are :

0,01 mPA = 0.1 kg of force(at Earth's gravity)/cm^2

Basically bone remodelling peaks at 0.1kg of force/cm^2.

Luckily I found this study on old untrained people which measured the force of the tongue against the palate : https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213453019300291

It seems that a healthy tongue pressure(highest) in old, untrained people was 43 kPA, which is by the way the force that the participants produced at their hardest effort. 

43 kPA = 0.4384779715805091 kg/cm^2 of force at Earth's gravity.

Now a tongue is a muscle which we constantly use and if you mew I doubt you're going to quadruple your force produced, you could maybe double it? The difference in weight-lifting between someone who has intermediate strength(your average weightlifter, lifting weights for fun) and someone who sits at an elite level of strength(talented guy who hasn't taken those streroids, but trained hard) is around 2x.

 

So a trained mewer will probably be able to exert around 1 kg/cm^2 of force, maximum bone remodelling happens at a tenth of that.

The mandible weighs around 300 grams, I'd say the teeth weight around 60 grams total and maxilla probably 120 as it's not even half the size or thickness of the mandible so 120 is begin generous, total weight 180 grams., since we're talking

 Average palate is like 12,5 cm^2, so 0.18 kg / 12.5 cm^2 = 0.01 kg/cm^2 from gravity, of course this calculation isn't very accurate, but it's probably within 0.01kg/cm^2 to 0.02kg/cm^2 and probably in certain areas much higher(front palate) than others(back palate). Either way I don't think that against the forces of the tongue the gravity makes much changes to the calculation.

EDIT : I've edited the whole post because of a mistake in calculation, fixed it now, will double-check everything again.

EDIT 2 : I didn't take into account gravity, I need to recalculate some stuff.

Conclusion : Pushing too hard reduces remodelling, around 10-20% of maximum force should be used for maximum remodelling(changing shape without losing volume in bone), around 1-2% of force should be used for maximum shortening of maxilla(resorption) and around 15-30% of maximum force should be used for expansion(bone gained). Note :  It's hard to say whether palatal expansion is gain in bone volume or just remodelling, I'd lean towards mostly remodelling.

This is just my opinion and my calculations. I think from personal experience of hard mewing it's somewhat accurate, I gained a lot of palatal expansion, yet maxilla shortening was minimum, instead lower maxilla remodelled a bit more upward and forward without changing bone length. I should try only using slight force.

However there may be a problem with my conclusion. Most bone change and bone sensing mechanical forces happens during sleep, I've made a comment about it. If maximum exertion can improve muscle tone then it can be beneficial,  however the evidence for muscle exercise being able to increase muscle tone is low. It seems that the biggest change in muscle tone happens from constant contraction in muscle, if so then high intensity tongue lifting is basically useless or even counter-productive. Instead constant tongue postue during day is probably most importnat factor to improve muscle tone during sleep. During sleep there is also no effect of gravity on the palate/maxilla vertically, only sagitally or horizontally.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/05/2020 8:20 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @ovosoundszn

@streiderstorm 0 results bruh tbh. It is what it is man. @Azrael notice how op's neck muscles aren't hypertrophied like at all. I remember seeing salludons after photo where his neck was really hypertrophied especially his scms. Do you think thats a sign of proper tongue posture? Obviously its a sign of correct neck posture.

Salluman did good training and was very fit, also he's balding early maybe he did AAS.

 

He's balding? Did he say that in those looksmaxxing forums? He seems to have a good head of hair in all his pics and even the hairline seems good from what I can see?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/05/2020 9:08 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @ovosoundszn

@streiderstorm 0 results bruh tbh. It is what it is man. @Azrael notice how op's neck muscles aren't hypertrophied like at all. I remember seeing salludons after photo where his neck was really hypertrophied especially his scms. Do you think thats a sign of proper tongue posture? Obviously its a sign of correct neck posture.

Salluman did good training and was very fit, also he's balding early maybe he did AAS.

 

He's balding? Did he say that in those looksmaxxing forums? He seems to have a good head of hair in all his pics and even the hairline seems good from what I can see?

I stalked him, hahaha.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/05/2020 5:40 pm