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Hard Mewing or soft Mewing? Face Pulling yes or No? A scientific approach to bone modeling and remodeling.  

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Francybe92
(@francybe92)
Active Member

Hi Guys, here i am to open another more scientific oriented thread. I know that this may sound a bit annoying because finding the time and the energy to read some complex scientific article is not easy for no one, but i firmly believe that shearing information is vital for our society to progress for the better.

Almost each day i read a topic about how to Mew, which force to apply, and if face pulling technique is a good way to speed up the results or not.

I collected and read a series of article about bone biology, bone modeling and remodeling and Mechanostat and wolff's law.
I think this forum is a bit stuck and i think we have to keep going trying to avoid mistakes and time losses as much as we can.

I know that this forum is made by different people, some are more scientific objective and skeptic, and other more spiritual and enthusiastic.
I really like both of these categories and I firmly believe that both of them, in their own way, can give an important contribution to our common cause.

What we really need to avoid is confusion, and sometime i feel that we get lost way too easily with theory coming from nowhere.

Knowledge, sharing information and sharing our opinion and experience can give us the edge to progress in our journey.

Before starting keep in mind that:

1 We refer to Mike Mew as the main exponent of the oral posture theory, but he, like any other human being, does not have the monopoly on the truth.
Remember that he has never conducted any controlled experiments on adults and that we must be enough open-minded to even consider his claims to be false and consider other ways of proceeding.

2 Mechanostat and wolff's law has never proven to be 100% scientifically true also if there are strong evidence that they could be right.

3 Different kinds of bones response in a different way to different stimulus. In most of the articles the femur is used as a reference bone, maxillary and jaw bones may respond differently.

4 Stay open-minded and avoid considering only the parts of informations that match with your thinking and beliefs.

I would have really liked to summarize the articles for you guys but (as you have probably noticed) i am not a native English speaker and it would have been a really hard task for me to accomplish.

I hope that some of you will find the time to read, share his opinion and open a constructive debate on the articles below.

Stay hungry, stay foolish!

Bone “mass” and the “mechanostat”: A proposal
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ar.1092190104

Mechanical Signaling for Bone Modeling and Remodeling
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3743123/

Changes in Bone Size and Geometry with Aging
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/bone-size

Bone's mechanostat: A 2003 update
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.a.10119

Exercise Adaptations to Biological Tissues
http://wweb.uta.edu/faculty/ricard/Classes/KINE-3301/Notes/Lesson-15.html

Biomechanical forces in the skeleton and their relevance to bone metastasis: biology and engineering considerations
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4258455/

Osteocyte function under compressive mechanical force
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1882761613000641#bib0140

Physiology and pathophysiology of bone remodeling.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10430818

Research and proof : Theory
https://peweemaster7.wordpress.com/research-and-proof-theory/

Low-Magnitude Forces for Bone Modeling and Remodeling in Dentofacial Orthopedics
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11914-018-0437-9

Bone modeling and remodeling: potential as therapeutic targets for the treatment of osteoporosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5322859/

 

This topic was modified 6 months ago by Francybe92
Quote
Posted : 30/11/2018 3:21 am
Apollo liked
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Francybe92

Before starting keep in mind that:

1 We refer to Mike Mew as the main exponent of the oral posture theory, but he, like any other human being, does not have the monopoly on the truth.
Remember that he has never conducted any controlled experiments on adults and that we must be enough open-minded to even consider his claims to be false and consider other ways of proceeding.

Hello Francybe92,

Thanks for sharing this collection of research. I will try my best to go through it overtime. In the mean time I would like to elaborate on your point above. 

This is very true. Over the span of 2 years my view of Dr. has changed and if you had the chance to notice on the forum I have been critical of him sometimes. 

It's important however, to point out that almost all that we know on this forum comes from him, specifically his videos. 

Therefore, when Dr. Mew makes very clear instructions about his method, know as Mewing, people should at least make an effort to understand it and share it with others as accurately as possible, not make additions and subtractions to it.

If people think that hard mewing is the way to go for adults, even though it's a contradiction, then they should make it clear that this is their view and not confuse it with Dr. Mew's message. 

I am sure if you ask the majority of new forum members why they are here, they will tell you they are interested in mewing as Dr. Mew suggests. That's what got them here in the first place and this is what they want to learn about so they can become "good looking".

Well, the sad reality is that becoming "good looking" is the hook that Dr. Mew used to get them attached, but what they will find out afterwards, weather by practicing and failing to get the results or by reading the forum, is that it's much harder than it sounds and the results can be pretty underwhelming.

Still I believe in Dr. Mew message for the most part and think it should be presented as accurately as possible and also critiqued as much as possible. 

This post was modified 6 months ago by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/11/2018 4:21 am
Francybe92
(@francybe92)
Active Member

I fully understand your point of view and I fully agree with it.
Mike Mew is the person who started this movement and this same forum is born on the basis of his theories.

It is therefore right to divulge the theories and ideas of a professions who, although counter-current, has a background of studies, work experience, and a family history that is right not to underestimate.

Since, as said before, this forum is inspired by the Mew family view of the cranio-facial development, it is correct to divulge their theories and their practices as they are without any contamination.

Certainly this condition is partialy satisfied by the "Articles" section on this forum, and I think it is always necessary to warn users that alternatives
practice do not belong to the basic theory; which are potentially harmful (even with serious consequences); and which may have unpredictable results and
side effects.

We can not however base the truth of someone's words on the principle of authority.
Whether it's a doctor or a Nobel prize to talk does not matter. if he does not carry repeatable scientific evidence his word worth 0.

What we can do is objectively evaluate the facts and the reasoning.

The history is full of fanatics who have fallen too much in love with their own theory. Linus Pauling, winner of 2 Nobel prizes, continued to claim, up to his
own death, that high doses of vitamin C could cure cancer and other diseases. Needless to say that vitamin C does not cure cancer.

I believe that it is necessary not to lose our ability to be objective, as often happens to those who embrace a cause and transform it into a faith.

Too often happens that when people begin to convince themselves of something, they start communicate whit other like-minded people reinforcing each other in their
beliefs; they start thinking that other people can not see which is the truth; they begin to imagine conspiracies etc. etc

History is full of these mass deliriums that in other areas have led to ugly pages in the history of human being. Luckily, the sphere of orthodontics is much more
harmless, but in any case our duty is to try to keep ourselves as objective as possible without falling into fanaticism and without wagering on a single way of proceeding or on the current "guru".

Today, we are lucky to be able to communicate in real time and with great ease with people from all over the world, it is an advantage that we can not underestimate and that we have the duty to fully exploit.

Cheers

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/12/2018 1:07 am
paradise and scerif liked
Francybe92
(@francybe92)
Active Member

That being said, some articles show that it is necessary to apply a certain force to obtain bone remodeling or even bone modeling.
This value is measured in micro strain. It would be curious to know if the tongue is able to exert such a force that allows bones to remodel.

Knowing the force needed for the maxilla to remodel, allow us to decide if soft mewing, hard mewing, chin tucking, tong chewing, face pulling, thumb pulling ecc...
are worth it.

In some articles you can find that not only the amount of force is important, but also the rate is crucial for bone remodeling (the rate is the number of time you apply a force divided by time).

Also resting seems to be important as well, because it makes bone more susceptible to future stress.

Constant stress instead, lead to bones adaptation whit no further remodeling of the bones.

These facts could validate Mike's theory since the correct swallowing and tongue chewing are those strong "intermittent" forces that leads the bones to remodel whereas the standard oral posture keeps those gains.

We have to figure out, as said before, if the correct swallowing pattern and tongue chewing, are able to exert enough forces to cause bones remodeling.

At present, for what I have read constant forces do not have much effect on the bone structure which adapts quickly to the new load without changing that much.

One point less for hard Mewig??? I don't know, hope to have some feedback from you guys.

Have a nice day.

This post was modified 6 months ago 2 times by Francybe92
ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/12/2018 2:27 am
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator
Posted by: Francybe92

That being said, some articles show that it is necessary to apply a certain force to obtain bone remodeling or even bone modeling.
This value is measured in micro strain. It would be curious to know if the tongue is able to exert such a force that allows bones to remodel.

Knowing the force needed for the maxilla to remodel, allow us to decide if soft mewing, hard mewing, chin tucking, tong chewing, face pulling, thumb pulling ecc...
are worth it.

In some articles you can find that not only the amount of force is important, but also the rate is crucial for bone remodeling (the rate is the number of time you apply a force divided by time).

Also resting seems to be important as well, because it makes bone more susceptible to future stress.

Constant stress instead, lead to bones adaptation whit no further remodeling of the bones.

These facts could validate Mike's theory since the correct swallowing and tongue chewing are those strong "intermittent" forces that leads the bones to remodel whereas the standard oral posture keeps those gains.

We have to figure out, as said before, if the correct swallowing pattern and tongue chewing, are able to exert enough forces to cause bones remodeling.

At present, for what I have read constant forces do not have much effect on the bone structure which adapts quickly to the new load without changing that much.

One point less for hard Mewig??? I don't know, hope to have some feedback from you guys.

Have a nice day.

Note that the force required to get even to the yellow zone is likely more than what the tongue is capable of generating. The absolute maximum effort the whole tongue of an average person can muster up is around 10-30 newton . In order to reach the "modelling" stage as defined by your graph, the tongue would have to generate over 20 newton (2 kg / 4 lbs) of pressure for every square millimeter of the palate.

In reality though, what we are doing here is more than just bone remodelling. Much of the growth and restructuring of the face occurs through the cranial sutures, which means that a whole different set of (unidentified) laws apply. 

This post was modified 6 months ago 3 times by Progress
ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/12/2018 3:27 pm
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: Francybe92

That being said, some articles show that it is necessary to apply a certain force to obtain bone remodeling or even bone modeling.
This value is measured in micro strain. It would be curious to know if the tongue is able to exert such a force that allows bones to remodel.

Knowing the force needed for the maxilla to remodel, allow us to decide if soft mewing, hard mewing, chin tucking, tong chewing, face pulling, thumb pulling ecc...
are worth it.

In some articles you can find that not only the amount of force is important, but also the rate is crucial for bone remodeling (the rate is the number of time you apply a force divided by time).

Also resting seems to be important as well, because it makes bone more susceptible to future stress.

Constant stress instead, lead to bones adaptation whit no further remodeling of the bones.

These facts could validate Mike's theory since the correct swallowing and tongue chewing are those strong "intermittent" forces that leads the bones to remodel whereas the standard oral posture keeps those gains.

We have to figure out, as said before, if the correct swallowing pattern and tongue chewing, are able to exert enough forces to cause bones remodeling.

At present, for what I have read constant forces do not have much effect on the bone structure which adapts quickly to the new load without changing that much.

One point less for hard Mewig??? I don't know, hope to have some feedback from you guys.

Have a nice day.

Note that the force required to get even to the yellow zone is likely more than what the tongue is capable of generating. The absolute maximum effort the whole tongue of an average person can muster up is around 10-30 newton . In order to reach the "modelling" stage as defined by your graph, the tongue would have to generate over 20 newton (2 kg / 4 lbs) of pressure for every square millimeter of the palate.

In reality though, what we are doing here is more than just bone remodelling. Much of the growth and restructuring of the face occurs through the cranial sutures, which means that a whole different set of (unidentified) laws apply. 

This is really the big question that Mew ought to think about instead of dismissing it away saying it doesn't matter if growth occurs at the sutures vs bone remodelling like he did in the last q&a video iirc. I suspect you can get vastly superior results from cranial suture growth vs mere bone remodelling. From my experience, I feel doubtful that much of the change from mewing occurs in the cranial sutures. When I was able to, by my perception, separate the sutures manually (thumb pulling), in short order I got considerably increased results and actually moved my maxilla to a better position in a noticeable way, something Mewing alone failed to do in several years time. Just my experience and I lack the resources to provide decent evidence of my claims at this time, but I just wanted to highlight this issue which I feel is very underappreciated by Mew.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/12/2018 4:01 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: Francybe92

That being said, some articles show that it is necessary to apply a certain force to obtain bone remodeling or even bone modeling.
This value is measured in micro strain. It would be curious to know if the tongue is able to exert such a force that allows bones to remodel.

Knowing the force needed for the maxilla to remodel, allow us to decide if soft mewing, hard mewing, chin tucking, tong chewing, face pulling, thumb pulling ecc...
are worth it.

In some articles you can find that not only the amount of force is important, but also the rate is crucial for bone remodeling (the rate is the number of time you apply a force divided by time).

Also resting seems to be important as well, because it makes bone more susceptible to future stress.

Constant stress instead, lead to bones adaptation whit no further remodeling of the bones.

These facts could validate Mike's theory since the correct swallowing and tongue chewing are those strong "intermittent" forces that leads the bones to remodel whereas the standard oral posture keeps those gains.

We have to figure out, as said before, if the correct swallowing pattern and tongue chewing, are able to exert enough forces to cause bones remodeling.

At present, for what I have read constant forces do not have much effect on the bone structure which adapts quickly to the new load without changing that much.

One point less for hard Mewig??? I don't know, hope to have some feedback from you guys.

Have a nice day.

Note that the force required to get even to the yellow zone is likely more than what the tongue is capable of generating. The absolute maximum effort the whole tongue of an average person can muster up is around 10-30 newton . In order to reach the "modelling" stage as defined by your graph, the tongue would have to generate over 20 newton (2 kg / 4 lbs) of pressure for every square millimeter of the palate.

In reality though, what we are doing here is more than just bone remodelling. Much of the growth and restructuring of the face occurs through the cranial sutures, which means that a whole different set of (unidentified) laws apply. 

This is really the big question that Mew ought to think about instead of dismissing it away saying it doesn't matter if growth occurs at the sutures vs bone remodelling like he did in the last q&a video iirc. I suspect you can get vastly superior results from cranial suture growth vs mere bone remodelling. From my experience, I feel doubtful that much of the change from mewing occurs in the cranial sutures. When I was able to, by my perception, separate the sutures manually (thumb pulling), in short order I got considerably increased results and actually moved my maxilla to a better position in a noticeable way, something Mewing alone failed to do in several years time. Just my experience and I lack the resources to provide decent evidence of my claims at this time, but I just wanted to highlight this issue which I feel is very underappreciated by Mew.

That's interesting. Were you pulling in opposite directions with one thumb per each side of the palate? Did the disarticulation occur instantly once a certain force threshold was reached, or after a period of static pulling? What kind of sensations did you experience that led you to conclude that your sutures must have separated?

This post was modified 6 months ago 3 times by Progress
ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/12/2018 4:22 pm
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Estimable Member

@Progress, I put my thumbs at 30 and 150 degree position, forefingers anchored to my forehead, head in Mckenzie chin nod position. Disarticulation occurred after a period of static pulling, usually 30 seconds max, and if it didn't happen by then I stopped and tried again in an hour. I massaged along the middle of my palate to help the midpalatal suture separate, as mixing up the way pressure was applied seemed to increase the sensation of the suture separating. I believe other sutures were separating as well besides the midpalatal one because I felt the separating sensation in different parts of the skull at times, including in the nose which was followed by an immediate feeling of improved breathing. I believe it was suture separation because I'd infrequently experienced the same sensation while mewing, as well some others reported the same beliefs and sensations in the thumb pulling thread. Also there's an example that came later: the so-called Deathmewer. As well I have also seen a general report on this forum of events like hearing and feeling pops, cracks, etc possibly a shifting or releasing sensation by which people tended to attribute to skull bones moving or suture separation. With this all said I have no way of knowing for sure, as far as I can tell, and even my quick expansion during this time could be explained away as just something that can happen when expanding from around 39mm to 45mm (by which I mean it's common people expand quickly during this time with simply mewing). Also I should add, I don't use this technique nearly as much as I reported in the thumb pulling thread because I experience fatigue at that frequency which is not compatible with my lifestyle.

This post was modified 6 months ago 2 times by Greensmoothies
ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/12/2018 4:53 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator
Posted by: Greensmoothies

@Progress, I put my thumbs at 30 and 150 degree position, forefingers anchored to my forehead, head in Mckenzie chin nod position. Disarticulation occurred after a period of static pulling, usually 30 seconds max, and if it didn't happen by then I stopped and tried again in an hour. I massaged along the middle of my palate to help the midpalatal suture separate, as mixing up the way pressure was applied seemed to increase the sensation of the suture separating. I believe other sutures were separating as well besides the midpalatal one because I felt the separating sensation in different parts of the skull at times, including in the nose which was followed by an immediate feeling of improved breathing. I believe it was suture separation because I'd infrequently experienced the same sensation while mewing, as well some others reported the same beliefs and sensations in the thumb pulling thread. I have also seen a general report on this forum of events like hearing and feeling pops, cracks, etc possibly a shifting or releasing sensation by which people tended to attribute to skull bones moving or suture separation. With this all said I have no way of knowing for sure, as far as I can tell, and even my quick expansion during this time could be explained away as just something that can happen when expanding from around 39mm to 45mm (by which I mean it's common people expand quickly during this time with simply mewing). Also I should add, I don't use this technique nearly as much as I reported in the thumb pulling thread because I experience fatigue at that frequency which is not compatible with my lifestyle.

Thanks. I too experience the nasal pops with the consequent improved breathing on a frequent basis. Often there is a sequence of 5-10 pops after getting up from the bed, with each pop opening the airways a little further. I use these pops as guidance towards proper tongue posture on any given day. Sometimes my nose may feel a bit clogged, then after some head and tongue repositioning the nasal turbinates pop open audibly. I think that's what it largely is. Soft tissue of the nasal turbinates coming apart. Every now and then though I hear a harder crack that sounds more like a sutural shift than the blobby pop of a soft tissue. As you say, it's hard to know for sure what is happening.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/12/2018 5:26 pm
bundfalke
(@bundfalke)
Active Member

Movement of the bone because of maxillary sutures is a nice theory, but arent most maxillary sutures fused in adults? Exspecially the zygo-maxillary suture?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/04/2019 4:08 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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