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Gum chewing everyday or every two days?  

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Azrael
Estimable Member

I have been mewing for two months now and chewing gum for half that period. I very rarely chewed gum when I was a kid so never had a robust mandible or long ramii. Never had TMD pain either, except for a small clicking sound which went away after orthodontic treatment.

I think we all can agree that chewing hard food or hard stuff eventually leads to hypertrophied masetters which in turn results in a bigger mandible and ramus to accommodate the bigger masetters (as seen in most people who chew a lot and bruxist patients).

So my question is, should we chew gum or hard stuff daily or every two days?

We are trying to hypertrophy a specific muscle and for microtrauma to heal sufficiently, 48 hours is optimally needed, right?  Yet most people chew hard stuff (food, gum, Chisell, etc.) daily (for hours on end, sometimes) and actually see visible improvements in months. How is that possible? Would their improvements be greater if they had chewed every two days instead of one?

Thoughts?

Quote
Posted : 20/03/2020 6:26 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member

Why do you assume size of a muscle has any impact on the shape? If anything, it's function and usage is what impacts any bone development. The microtrauma theory about hypertrophy is extremely oversimplified and not accepted as the main factor of growth or even a significant one, it's much more complex than that. And no, there's no set period of time you have to wait.

I did a lot of chewing, you have to start off light, otherwise you'll get problems with joints. Personally I haven't noticed much changes in the mandible, I did notice that chewing too much rotates your maxilla clockwise, which is counter-productive. Most changes I've seen were in zygos and fwHr, face became much shorter as well.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/03/2020 11:04 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Why do you assume size of a muscle has any impact on the shape? If anything, it's function and usage is what impacts any bone development.

You answered it yourself. Function and usage with greater than usual forces increases muscle mass and along with that, bone size and density. That's how your whole body functions in general (working out for hypertrophy in the gym increases size and strength of muscles and bone density, for example) as far as I am aware and I don't see why the masetters and the mandible should be the exception to the rule.

Also, this study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-24293-3

The current study shows that mandibular shape varies to a certain extent as a function of the forces applied to it by the temporalis and masseter muscles (Fig. 5). This is anticipated based on prior studies; “…the size and shape …of the jaws should reflect muscle size and activity”13 (p. 136). The major aspects of mandibular shape that covary with muscle CSAs, independent of sex, are, with larger CSAs, a wider trapezoidal ramus, a massive coronoid, a more rectangular body and curved basal arch. In contrast, mandibles with a tall and narrow ramus (parallelogram-like), a more pointed coronoid, a more triangular body and a more triangular basal arch were associated with smaller muscle CSA (Figs 6 and 7).

Posted by: @auxiliarus

The microtrauma theory about hypertrophy is extremely oversimplified and not accepted as the main factor of growth or even a significant one, it's much more complex than that.

And you are basing this on?

Posted by: @auxiliarus

And no, there's no set period of time you have to wait

So a period of resting isn't required for optimal hypertrophy of the masetters? This has been seen to be the case most of the time, I must admit, with people chewing like maniacs, daily. But why?

Posted by: @auxiliarus

I did a lot of chewing, you have to start off light, otherwise you'll get problems with joints.

Yeah, never chewed much gum before, did it the first month for 30 minutes, one gum, every two days. Now (the second month) the duration is 45 minutes. I will increase the duration by 15 minutes every month and once I hit 1 hour and 15 minutes with 1 gum, I will increase the gum to 2 gums, 30 minutes and gradually increase the duration and amount of gums from there similarly.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Personally I haven't noticed much changes in the mandible, I did notice that chewing too much rotates your maxilla clockwise, which is counter-productive. Most changes I've seen were in zygos and fwHr, face became much shorter as well.

I used to chew from only my left side and as a result, my left mandible, masetters and ramus developed more in an ideal fashion than the right, which I never chewed on. However, my left cheekbone was pulled downwards as well, most likely because the masetters is attached to the rear of the zygomatic bone and the constant one-sided mastication pulled it downwards. Developed a canted smile and midline discrepancy as well. Face is shorter from that side, though.

Now trying to remedy that by doing the opposite.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/03/2020 3:28 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Why do you assume size of a muscle has any impact on the shape? If anything, it's function and usage is what impacts any bone development.

You answered it yourself. Function and usage with greater than usual forces increases muscle mass and along with that, bone size and density. That's how your whole body functions in general (working out for hypertrophy in the gym increases size and strength of muscles and bone density, for example) as far as I am aware and I don't see why the masetters and the mandible should be the exception to the rule.

Also, this study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-24293-3

The current study shows that mandibular shape varies to a certain extent as a function of the forces applied to it by the temporalis and masseter muscles (Fig. 5). This is anticipated based on prior studies; “…the size and shape …of the jaws should reflect muscle size and activity”13 (p. 136). The major aspects of mandibular shape that covary with muscle CSAs, independent of sex, are, with larger CSAs, a wider trapezoidal ramus, a massive coronoid, a more rectangular body and curved basal arch. In contrast, mandibles with a tall and narrow ramus (parallelogram-like), a more pointed coronoid, a more triangular body and a more triangular basal arch were associated with smaller muscle CSA (Figs 6 and 7).

Posted by: @auxiliarus

The microtrauma theory about hypertrophy is extremely oversimplified and not accepted as the main factor of growth or even a significant one, it's much more complex than that.

And you are basing this on?

Posted by: @auxiliarus

And no, there's no set period of time you have to wait

So a period of resting isn't required for optimal hypertrophy of the masetters? This has been seen to be the case most of the time, I must admit, with people chewing like maniacs, daily. But why?

Posted by: @auxiliarus

I did a lot of chewing, you have to start off light, otherwise you'll get problems with joints.

Yeah, never chewed much gum before, did it the first month for 30 minutes, one gum, every two days. Now (the second month) the duration is 45 minutes. I will increase the duration by 15 minutes every month and once I hit 1 hour and 15 minutes with 1 gum, I will increase the gum to 2 gums, 30 minutes and gradually increase the duration and amount of gums from there similarly.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Personally I haven't noticed much changes in the mandible, I did notice that chewing too much rotates your maxilla clockwise, which is counter-productive. Most changes I've seen were in zygos and fwHr, face became much shorter as well.

I used to chew from only my left side and as a result, my left mandible, masetters and ramus developed more in an ideal fashion than the right, which I never chewed on. However, my left cheekbone was pulled downwards as well, most likely because the masetters is attached to the rear of the zygomatic bone and the constant one-sided mastication pulled it downwards. Developed a canted smile and midline discrepancy as well. Face is shorter from that side, though.

Now trying to remedy that by doing the opposite.

 

 

1) Yeah, that's what I meant, usage and not muscle size determines bone shape. A muscle doesn't have to be big to be used often. Runners often have smaller muscles than sprinters, yet they use them more and usually have higher bone density from all that running.

2) I'm basing it on the fact that increasing this microtrauma never seems to increase hypertrophy, yet increasing volume and depleting glycogen always leads to dose-dependent increase in hypertrophy.

3) Of course it is, but in the case of facial muscles they will regenerate so fast, your rest time will be majorly influenced by your joints. In the beginning you'll wait days in-between sessions, eventually you'll get used and it'll become shorter. My point there is that there is no FIXED waiting period time, like you can't just pop 48 hours, it'll vary a lot.

 

4) I have experienced between bone development from chewing, but I also had clockwise maxilla rotation happen. My face became really short and wide very fast as well. As the distance between eyes didn't increase, it only looked like I was packing mass on the sides, lol.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/03/2020 11:01 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Why do you assume size of a muscle has any impact on the shape? If anything, it's function and usage is what impacts any bone development.

You answered it yourself. Function and usage with greater than usual forces increases muscle mass and along with that, bone size and density. That's how your whole body functions in general (working out for hypertrophy in the gym increases size and strength of muscles and bone density, for example) as far as I am aware and I don't see why the masetters and the mandible should be the exception to the rule.

Also, this study: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-24293-3

The current study shows that mandibular shape varies to a certain extent as a function of the forces applied to it by the temporalis and masseter muscles (Fig. 5). This is anticipated based on prior studies; “…the size and shape …of the jaws should reflect muscle size and activity”13 (p. 136). The major aspects of mandibular shape that covary with muscle CSAs, independent of sex, are, with larger CSAs, a wider trapezoidal ramus, a massive coronoid, a more rectangular body and curved basal arch. In contrast, mandibles with a tall and narrow ramus (parallelogram-like), a more pointed coronoid, a more triangular body and a more triangular basal arch were associated with smaller muscle CSA (Figs 6 and 7).

Posted by: @auxiliarus

The microtrauma theory about hypertrophy is extremely oversimplified and not accepted as the main factor of growth or even a significant one, it's much more complex than that.

And you are basing this on?

Posted by: @auxiliarus

And no, there's no set period of time you have to wait

So a period of resting isn't required for optimal hypertrophy of the masetters? This has been seen to be the case most of the time, I must admit, with people chewing like maniacs, daily. But why?

Posted by: @auxiliarus

I did a lot of chewing, you have to start off light, otherwise you'll get problems with joints.

Yeah, never chewed much gum before, did it the first month for 30 minutes, one gum, every two days. Now (the second month) the duration is 45 minutes. I will increase the duration by 15 minutes every month and once I hit 1 hour and 15 minutes with 1 gum, I will increase the gum to 2 gums, 30 minutes and gradually increase the duration and amount of gums from there similarly.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Personally I haven't noticed much changes in the mandible, I did notice that chewing too much rotates your maxilla clockwise, which is counter-productive. Most changes I've seen were in zygos and fwHr, face became much shorter as well.

I used to chew from only my left side and as a result, my left mandible, masetters and ramus developed more in an ideal fashion than the right, which I never chewed on. However, my left cheekbone was pulled downwards as well, most likely because the masetters is attached to the rear of the zygomatic bone and the constant one-sided mastication pulled it downwards. Developed a canted smile and midline discrepancy as well. Face is shorter from that side, though.

Now trying to remedy that by doing the opposite.

 

Curious, why did you change your opinion on chewing? In my opinion, it's bad for craniofacial developement and I think you greatly explained why in this post, but now you changed your mind? I think my face only became worse from chewing too much, only my front profile improved, side profile worsened greatly. I have now no idea how to rotate the maxilla back from all that chewing.

 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/clockwise-maxilla-rotation-but-counter-clockwise-mandibular-rotation-from-chewing/

 

Here's the post where you explain why chewing is bad for face.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/03/2020 11:13 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Curious, why did you change your opinion on chewing? In my opinion, it's bad for craniofacial developement and I think you greatly explained why in this post, but now you changed your mind? I think my face only became worse from chewing too much, only my front profile improved, side profile worsened greatly. I have now no idea how to rotate the maxilla back from all that chewing.

 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/clockwise-maxilla-rotation-but-counter-clockwise-mandibular-rotation-from-chewing/

 

Here's the post where you explain why chewing is bad for face.

Uh, are you talking about me or someone else?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/03/2020 2:15 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

1) Yeah, that's what I meant, usage and not muscle size determines bone shape. A muscle doesn't have to be big to be used often. Runners often have smaller muscles than sprinters, yet they use them more and usually have higher bone density from all that running.

That's a  weak analogy because it's very debatable. Runners are most of the time endurance athletes, so type I muscle fibres are more common than the type II, which are bigger naturally than the former. Besides, running is an aerobic activity so barely any muscle hypertrophy happens. Sprinting is basically anaerobic as it's more of a plyometric workout on the muscles which leads to relatvely greater hypertrophy than endurance activities such as running.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

2) I'm basing it on the fact that increasing this microtrauma never seems to increase hypertrophy, yet increasing volume and depleting glycogen always leads to dose-dependent increase in hypertrophy.

But that's not a fact? Microtrauma is the trigger for hypertrophy. Where has microtrauma not increased hypertrophy? I'd like to have a look at such instances.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

3) Of course it is, but in the case of facial muscles they will regenerate so fast, your rest time will be majorly influenced by your joints. In the beginning you'll wait days in-between sessions, eventually you'll get used and it'll become shorter. My point there is that there is no FIXED waiting period time, like you can't just pop 48 hours, it'll vary a lot.

You are just claiming things with nothing to back them up. Where has it been said that facial muscles regenerate faster than other muscles on the body? Also, 48 hours is the minimum. Some recommend 72 hours for optimal recovery of muscles after working out.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

4) I have experienced between bone development from chewing, but I also had clockwise maxilla rotation happen. My face became really short and wide very fast as well. As the distance between eyes didn't increase, it only looked like I was packing mass on the sides, lol.

Do you have before and afters?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/03/2020 2:31 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

1) Yeah, that's what I meant, usage and not muscle size determines bone shape. A muscle doesn't have to be big to be used often. Runners often have smaller muscles than sprinters, yet they use them more and usually have higher bone density from all that running.

That's a  weak analogy because it's very debatable. Runners are most of the time endurance athletes, so type I muscle fibres are more common than the type II, which are bigger naturally than the former. Besides, running is an aerobic activity so barely any muscle hypertrophy happens. Sprinting is basically anaerobic as it's more of a plyometric workout on the muscles which leads to relatvely greater hypertrophy than endurance activities such as running.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

2) I'm basing it on the fact that increasing this microtrauma never seems to increase hypertrophy, yet increasing volume and depleting glycogen always leads to dose-dependent increase in hypertrophy.

But that's not a fact? Microtrauma is the trigger for hypertrophy. Where has microtrauma not increased hypertrophy? I'd like to have a look at such instances.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

3) Of course it is, but in the case of facial muscles they will regenerate so fast, your rest time will be majorly influenced by your joints. In the beginning you'll wait days in-between sessions, eventually you'll get used and it'll become shorter. My point there is that there is no FIXED waiting period time, like you can't just pop 48 hours, it'll vary a lot.

You are just claiming things with nothing to back them up. Where has it been said that facial muscles regenerate faster than other muscles on the body? Also, 48 hours is the minimum. Some recommend 72 hours for optimal recovery of muscles after working out.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

4) I have experienced between bone development from chewing, but I also had clockwise maxilla rotation happen. My face became really short and wide very fast as well. As the distance between eyes didn't increase, it only looked like I was packing mass on the sides, lol.

Do you have before and afters?

1) I think you missed the point. Runners have less muscle mass, but better bone structure than an average gym joe. So you shouldn't focus on hypertrophy, but just focus on function.

2) Can you give any sources on microtrauma part? It's not an accepted theory in general in the fitness world, signalling is usually what's accepted as triggering hypertrophy growth. Your muscles can feel intensity and volume and they can intelligently respond.

3) No, 48 hours isn't the minimum. Many bodybuilders train daily for hypertrophy. 48 hours is only recommended for high-intensity lifting, which stresses soft tissue more than low-intensity high-volume type of training. You need a lot of recovery for joints, muscles get adapted real quick.

4) I do.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/03/2020 12:32 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Curious, why did you change your opinion on chewing? In my opinion, it's bad for craniofacial developement and I think you greatly explained why in this post, but now you changed your mind? I think my face only became worse from chewing too much, only my front profile improved, side profile worsened greatly. I have now no idea how to rotate the maxilla back from all that chewing.

 

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/clockwise-maxilla-rotation-but-counter-clockwise-mandibular-rotation-from-chewing/

 

Here's the post where you explain why chewing is bad for face.

Uh, are you talking about me or someone else?

Oh no, I was trying to reply to EddieMoney but failed.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/03/2020 12:35 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

2) Can you give any sources on microtrauma part? It's not an accepted theory in general in the fitness world, signalling is usually what's accepted as triggering hypertrophy growth. Your muscles can feel intensity and volume and they can intelligently respond.

Nope, here is one study, plenty more out there:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Cellular-and-molecular-regulation-of-muscle-Charg%C3%A9-Rudnicki/3c055c12018a5ece3b8751f0b437487b5a6eefb2

Posted by: @auxiliarus

3) No, 48 hours isn't the minimum. Many bodybuilders train daily for hypertrophy. 48 hours is only recommended for high-intensity lifting, which stresses soft tissue more than low-intensity high-volume type of training. You need a lot of recovery for joints, muscles get adapted real quick.

Nope. 48 hours minimum is the widely accepted norm in the fitness community. Training daily happens because they're training different muscle groups on different days - I thought this was more common knowledge.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

4) I do

Mind posting?

Posted by: @auxiliarus

1) I think you missed the point. Runners have less muscle mass, but better bone structure than an average gym joe. So you shouldn't focus on hypertrophy, but just focus on function.

Fair enough. Still, I'd rather go the safe route and chew once every two days.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/03/2020 4:34 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

2) Can you give any sources on microtrauma part? It's not an accepted theory in general in the fitness world, signalling is usually what's accepted as triggering hypertrophy growth. Your muscles can feel intensity and volume and they can intelligently respond.

Nope, here is one study, plenty more out there:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Cellular-and-molecular-regulation-of-muscle-Charg%C3%A9-Rudnicki/3c055c12018a5ece3b8751f0b437487b5a6eefb2

Posted by: @auxiliarus

3) No, 48 hours isn't the minimum. Many bodybuilders train daily for hypertrophy. 48 hours is only recommended for high-intensity lifting, which stresses soft tissue more than low-intensity high-volume type of training. You need a lot of recovery for joints, muscles get adapted real quick.

Nope. 48 hours minimum is the widely accepted norm in the fitness community. Training daily happens because they're training different muscle groups on different days - I thought this was more common knowledge.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

4) I do

Mind posting?

Posted by: @auxiliarus

1) I think you missed the point. Runners have less muscle mass, but better bone structure than an average gym joe. So you shouldn't focus on hypertrophy, but just focus on function.

Fair enough. Still, I'd rather go the safe route and chew once every two days.

1) The study you quoted only shows repair, not growth. Find a better one.

2) Nah, resting period is always specific to genes, muscle, type of training, type of movement, diet and environmental factors. There's no fixed time to rest between sets.

3) I do, last time I posted my picture to me it seemed like you just wanted to argue for the sake of arguing.

4) There's no need to limit yourself to either extremes, at the beginning you might have to wait 4-5 days between sessions, at the end you might be able to chew every 4 hours without any joint issues.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/03/2020 9:29 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Since when do runners have good bone structure? You ever see those East Africans? Sure they may have DENSE bones but they aren't robust by any means. Lanky still. So building bone density doesn't make your bones more prominent, just less porous.

In fact, many times people with smaller frames have denser bones because the bone doesn't grow away from itself like it would in a person with larger bones. But these dense boned people still don't have large frames. So even if we apply this to the face, treating your face like a marathon runner doesn't make the bones any more larger than runners developing larger bones from running, because they don't. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/03/2020 1:28 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

1) The study you quoted only shows repair, not growth. Find a better one.

I don't know, wanna try reading properly this time?

Skeletal muscle repair is a highly synchronized process involving the activation of various cellular responses. The initial phase of muscle repair is characterized by necrosis of the damaged tissue and activation of an inflammatory response. This phase is rapidly followed by activation of myogenic cells to proliferate, differentiate, and fuse leading to new myofiber formation and reconstitution of a functional contractile apparatus

Posted by: @auxiliarus

2) Nah, resting period is always specific to genes, muscle, type of training, type of movement, diet and environmental factors. There's no fixed time to rest between sets.

And I'd believe you if you show me a study where training the masseters everyday is seen as optimal and not overtraining.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

3) I do, last time I posted my picture to me it seemed like you just wanted to argue for the sake of arguing.

That wasn't a before and after, though? And there would have been no argument if you had just admitted your head was tilted, like so:

Nevertheless, I don't see any remarkable bone growth (even your mandible seems setback), but since I don't know your starting point, I'd give you the benefit of doubt.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

4) There's no need to limit yourself to either extremes, at the beginning you might have to wait 4-5 days between sessions, at the end you might be able to chew every 4 hours without any joint issues.

Yeah, that's how I'm thinking of progressing but so far, I have not encountered any issues with my current routine.

But every 4 hours sounds like way too much. Probably will have quicker than normal tooth wear even if joint wear isn't taken into consideration.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/03/2020 2:11 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

1) The study you quoted only shows repair, not growth. Find a better one.

I don't know, wanna try reading properly this time?

Skeletal muscle repair is a highly synchronized process involving the activation of various cellular responses. The initial phase of muscle repair is characterized by necrosis of the damaged tissue and activation of an inflammatory response. This phase is rapidly followed by activation of myogenic cells to proliferate, differentiate, and fuse leading to new myofiber formation and reconstitution of a functional contractile apparatus

Posted by: @auxiliarus

2) Nah, resting period is always specific to genes, muscle, type of training, type of movement, diet and environmental factors. There's no fixed time to rest between sets.

And I'd believe you if you show me a study where training the masseters everyday is seen as optimal and not overtraining.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

3) I do, last time I posted my picture to me it seemed like you just wanted to argue for the sake of arguing.

That wasn't a before and after, though? And there would have been no argument if you had just admitted your head was tilted, like so:

Nevertheless, I don't see any remarkable bone growth (even your mandible seems setback), but since I don't know your starting point, I'd give you the benefit of doubt.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

4) There's no need to limit yourself to either extremes, at the beginning you might have to wait 4-5 days between sessions, at the end you might be able to chew every 4 hours without any joint issues.

Yeah, that's how I'm thinking of progressing but so far, I have not encountered any issues with my current routine.

But every 4 hours sounds like way too much. Probably will have quicker than normal tooth wear even if joint wear isn't taken into consideration.

I'm not here to argue with you, it's that simple, I just won't be paying any attention to you anymore.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/03/2020 10:44 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

I'm not here to argue with you, it's that simple, I just won't be paying any attention to you anymore.

Whatever floats your boat, mate.🤷‍♂️

If not agreeing to everything you say and raising questions against your mostly questionable knowledge and responses is oversimplified as arguing and not as discussing, then sorry for disappointing you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/03/2020 3:05 pm