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Getting a square jaw?  

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EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

Imo this is how maxillary expansion allows for a square jaw. 

Here are possible square jaw mechanics:

Wide Palate with canines in line with incisors (more square shape)

Occlusal plane level with the horizon if not positively inclined (counterclockwise rotation)

Ramus widened through expansion and chewing/masseter development.

This is not to be confused with overactive masseters in people with bruxism who sometimes develop a wide rounded face. For tje jaw to be square, the palate must be wide enough for the teeth to align in a square fashion, which then widens the chin and gives more definition to the mandible itself.

Examples:

Of course a low Mew indicator line is necessary to keep the maxilla high. But basically this is the mechanism by which palatal expansion develops the mandible. Notice how Dolph has a maxilla that looks blown out. 

 

This topic was modified 3 months ago by EddieMoney
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Posted : 27/03/2019 3:45 pm
Pame
 Pame
(@pame)
Trusted Member

What are the mechanics behind ramus lengthening and widening from chewing? Is there any proof of this?

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Posted : 28/03/2019 12:24 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Pame

What are the mechanics behind ramus lengthening and widening from chewing? Is there any proof of this?

The ramus doesn't lengthen necessarily. The rotation of the maxilla allows the ramus to come down. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/03/2019 9:37 pm
freestyle123
(@freestyle123)
New Member

Maybe the genetics to have a squarish jaw makes it so? People act like mewing will fix anything. Your genetics play a very big part. I realized when I discovered mewing i mewed my whole life but never developed that real squarish jaw. its your genes. Mewing is like reaching genetic potential.

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Posted : 01/04/2019 9:35 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

Bruxism can cause square jaws so it isn't just genetics. Genetics is an excuse most of the time. 

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Posted : 01/04/2019 4:44 pm
Community Lurker
(@community-lurker)
Active Member

Is a square jaw even something you'd want though (talking 90 degree gonial angle here)? This is one of things i've been questioning lately; will mewing end up giving me a 90 degree gonial angle (a square jaw) / make my gonial angle less and less to the point of it being 90 degrees? Cause if so, then that be unfortunate (imo) since i don't believe 90 degrees is the most appealing look. I'd rather get to 120 - 130 and just stay there if that's possible. 

 

(Now for all i know a gonial angle between 120 - 130 is considered square by most, to me it isn't though, to me square is close to 90 degrees)

 

This post was modified 3 months ago by Community Lurker
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Posted : 01/04/2019 5:38 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Community Lurker

Is a square jaw even something you'd want though (talking 90 degree gonial angle here)? This is one of things i've been questioning lately; will mewing end up giving me a 90 degree gonial angle (a square jaw) / make my gonial angle less and less to the point of it being 90 degrees? Cause if so, then that be unfortunate (imo) since i don't believe 90 degrees is the most appealing look. I'd rather get to 120 - 130 and just stay there if that's possible. 

 

(Now for all i know a gonial angle between 120 - 130 is considered square by most, to me it isn't though, to me square is close to 90 degrees)

 

I don't think mewing ever have anyone a 90° gonial angle to my knowledge

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Posted : 01/04/2019 11:40 pm
mr.mewing
(@mr-mewing)
Trusted Member

but  i think a lengthen ramus is not the goal because my ramus lengthen already without even mewing and in my opinion it gaves the face a more a longer look

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/04/2019 2:11 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

Ok but the face actually shortens when the maxilla goes higher. So from the front your face would indeed look shorter despite the gonial angle change. 

This post was modified 3 months ago by EddieMoney
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Posted : 03/04/2019 12:44 am
mr.mewing liked
mewchell
(@mewchell)
Active Member

The example you posted reminds me of Henry Cavil, both have squarish palate, but if you took an X-ray I think you would find that their intermollar width is relatively narrow with respect to their teeth. The optimal shape is a u shape, so his face is under developed but his face is wide likely due to having a wide back of the palate. I have a similar case, I'm going to have to agree that the square palate of the teeth but still having a wide face is genetic or hormone related. In the case you showed he actually has potential to have better cheek bones if he were to expand his palate more

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Posted : 05/04/2019 4:48 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

Who has a narrow palate? Not Lundgren. 

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Posted : 06/04/2019 1:14 pm
mewchell
(@mewchell)
Active Member

His palate definitely isn't quite fully developed, Almost all info I can find on proper palate developement result in a u shape, the fact you can see his back teeth shows that his more further forward teeth ie, premolars aren't as wide as they should be, his palate is probably about 5-10 mm to narrow but his rear molars will be the right width. I can't find any good enough pictures of him to prove it tho.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2019 2:01 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

His arch does have a U shape. Compared to a triangular arch, a U arch looks more like a square

See the more squared form where the canines are almost in line with incisors?

Also there is no way that man's palate is narrow. Look how large his teeth are and how he has no crowding. His occlusal plane also indicates counterclockwise rotation which would make sense considering his gums in the back are more visible than gums in the front. And consider how short his midface is.

This is good development IMO. Cavill comes close too.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2019 8:50 pm
scerif liked
mr.mewing
(@mr-mewing)
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

His arch does have a U shape. Compared to a triangular arch, a U arch looks more like a square

See the more squared form where the canines are almost in line with incisors?

Also there is no way that man's palate is narrow. Look how large his teeth are and how he has no crowding. His occlusal plane also indicates counterclockwise rotation which would make sense considering his gums in the back are more visible than gums in the front. And consider how short his midface is.

This is good development IMO. Cavill comes close

teeth size are genetic isn't it?

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Posted : 08/04/2019 2:08 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: mr.mewing
Posted by: EddieMoney

His arch does have a U shape. Compared to a triangular arch, a U arch looks more like a square

See the more squared form where the canines are almost in line with incisors?

Also there is no way that man's palate is narrow. Look how large his teeth are and how he has no crowding. His occlusal plane also indicates counterclockwise rotation which would make sense considering his gums in the back are more visible than gums in the front. And consider how short his midface is.

This is good development IMO. Cavill comes close

teeth size are genetic isn't it?

I think so, but large teeth on a narrow palate = crowding 100% of the time.

His positive inclination of the teeth and the fact his teeth look so close to his nose indicates to me good position

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/04/2019 3:25 pm
Youssef El Kaisi
(@youssef-el-kaisi)
Eminent Member

My face is relatively wide but my shape is more like the drawing in the top, not a complete u shape. Maybe this is what Henry has?

Youssef

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/04/2019 3:04 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Youssef El Kaisi

My face is relatively wide but my shape is more like the drawing in the top, not a complete u shape. Maybe this is what Henry has?

Maybe you are right. This would make sense since Henry has a short wide face (high fWHR) and a square jaw. If his back molars weren't so wide he would probably have a narrower skull.

Unlike Dolph, Henry seems to have more gum exposure. I think he may have had mild orthodontic treatment that retroclined his incisors a bit. He does have more gum exposure than Dolph. I think this may be what differentiates the two smiles. This also explains why Dolph seems to have a better Mew indicator score than Henry (and thus a more prominent jaw)

This post was modified 2 months ago by EddieMoney
ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/04/2019 12:12 pm
Breezy89
(@breezy89)
Active Member

I would speculate that wider jaws are a result of harder/more frequent chewing and perhaps tongue posture over time to expand the palette (this widening the jaws).

Vertical forces applied to the jaw (from clenching/chewing) could in theory expand the mandible outwards over time but genetics also likely play a factor.

However, the squareness of the jaw has been linked to higher levels of prenatal testosterone in both men/women. I will post a reference if anyone needs it as I read this somewhere

This post was modified 2 months ago by Breezy89
ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/04/2019 11:37 pm
Zag
 Zag
(@zag)
Active Member

I agree, a couple of research papers lead to the prenatal testosterone. Blame your mothers lol!

Cavill is an interesting example though. His jaw is squared, face relatively short, high fWHR, but those eyes... they aren't manly at all. Those are prey not hunter eyes and I think having hunter eyes should be defined by prenatal T as well.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2019 1:59 am
GreekGodBrody
(@greekgodbrody)
Eminent Member

Dolph Lundgren in his prime was the prototypical Aryan Chad

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Posted : 11/04/2019 2:18 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Zag

I agree, a couple of research papers lead to the prenatal testosterone. Blame your mothers lol!

Cavill is an interesting example though. His jaw is squared, face relatively short, high fWHR, but those eyes... they aren't manly at all. Those are prey not hunter eyes and I think having hunter eyes should be defined by prenatal T as well.

Canthal tilt has nothing to do with this at all. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2019 10:30 pm
Zag
 Zag
(@zag)
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Zag

I agree, a couple of research papers lead to the prenatal testosterone. Blame your mothers lol!

Cavill is an interesting example though. His jaw is squared, face relatively short, high fWHR, but those eyes... they aren't manly at all. Those are prey not hunter eyes and I think having hunter eyes should be defined by prenatal T as well.

Canthal tilt has nothing to do with this at all. 

I didn't mean canthal tilt. It's the fact that his eyes are fairly big with upper eyelid exposure. This gives that high-trust look insead of aggressive low-trust one.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/04/2019 1:25 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Zag
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Zag

I agree, a couple of research papers lead to the prenatal testosterone. Blame your mothers lol!

Cavill is an interesting example though. His jaw is squared, face relatively short, high fWHR, but those eyes... they aren't manly at all. Those are prey not hunter eyes and I think having hunter eyes should be defined by prenatal T as well.

Canthal tilt has nothing to do with this at all. 

I didn't mean canthal tilt. It's the fact that his eyes are fairly big with upper eyelid exposure. This gives that high-trust look insead of aggressive low-trust one.

Well a low trust look is combination of the entire face and it's expression. Not just eyes. That being said, Henry Cavill has near zero eyelid exposure tbh. Look:

He also has no scleral show indicating his eye position is within normal ranges. I don't see anything wrong with the man's eyes. And when you say they're "big" what is your reference point for this? Besides, a high trust face doesn't preclude good bone development. There is zero evidence that ideal bone development creates a low trust face or not. Henry Cavill needs a high trust face if he is going to be a superhero, anyway. 

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Posted : 12/04/2019 2:58 pm
mewchell
(@mewchell)
Active Member

bellow is my teeth for reference, my right side is far too narrow so ignor that for the most part, but my left side, notice how square it is, that is actually the result of my back molars being wide but the rest being too narrow, it intrudes on my tongue space and is similar but in my case worse than the examples above, there is huge potential for expansion of the front teeth, premolars and first molars but the back teeth are wide, in my case ~45mm but my intermolar width is narrow at 35 (would be close to 40 if my right side wasn't so narrow). Hence my point is both examples above have big teeth but still have expansion potential. the image you showed of the U shape compared to my teeth should show you what I mean. not everyone with malocclusion gets the v shape, and in my case and the above examples got a square shape

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Posted : 16/04/2019 1:09 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

The difference I see is you have crowding and Dolph does not. Also, he has no buccal corridors. So in other words there is little to no reason to believe Dolph has lack of growth or poor growth. 

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Posted : 16/04/2019 4:26 pm
mewchell
(@mewchell)
Active Member

You don't get it do you, I wish there was better images as there is almost none of dolph's teeth to prove either of us right, square shaped teeth is inherently narrower than a proper u shape palate, dolph makes up for his lack of mid palate width with back palate width and testosterone. I showed Henry cavil is he too has the square shape yet clearly has crowding but only on his lower jaw, as like I said the square shape is narrower than the u shape. My palate is far to narrow, especially on my right side, what proof can I even give to prove that dolph has minor maloclusion? Will you even accept evidence?

 

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Posted : 17/04/2019 6:23 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: mewchell

You don't get it do you, I wish there was better images as there is almost none of dolph's teeth to prove either of us right, square shaped teeth is inherently narrower than a proper u shape palate, dolph makes up for his lack of mid palate width with back palate width and testosterone. I showed Henry cavil is he too has the square shape yet clearly has crowding but only on his lower jaw, as like I said the square shape is narrower than the u shape. My palate is far to narrow, especially on my right side, what proof can I even give to prove that dolph has minor maloclusion? Will you even accept evidence?

 

He has a U shape though. That is where we disagree

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Posted : 17/04/2019 9:02 pm
mewchell
(@mewchell)
Active Member

this is what I believe his teeth would look like and the blue line is the optimal position, it's also possible a bit more forward growth would round out his teeth more.

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Posted : 17/04/2019 11:44 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: mewchell

this is what I believe his teeth would look like and the blue line is the optimal position, it's also possible a bit more forward growth would round out his teeth more.

Possibly but that man is about as forward grown as is possible for most adults. His midface is very short and his teeth are very close to his nose. In a way that is not found in your average person. Could everyone improve? Yes. But he is close to as optimal as one can get.

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Posted : 19/04/2019 2:53 pm
mewchell
(@mewchell)
Active Member

His mid face is short as he's a high testosterone male, i have a fwhr of 2 but am by no means properly developed. fwhr is correlated to testosterone levels. There are people with better developed faces with a longer mid face, its genetic. There's also people with shorter mid faces but worse development, you cant use that as a standard

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Posted : 21/04/2019 2:52 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

Midface ratio =/= fwhr

Also, T levels in this case aren't really relevant. Simply because whatever the cause of his midface ratio/fwhr, his face is forward grown and palate wide. Why does it matter the speculation of how he got this development?

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Posted : 21/04/2019 11:37 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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