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darkindigo
Reputable Member

I'll ask the clinical director.  Get them all together, guys!  Go...  (By the way... he is legit and I just happen to be in the same city as him right now as I type this).   Dropped dentistry and revamped all for airway.  Love is the greatest force on the planet.  All leaders in this space (the airway space between orthodontia and medical) are here for a loved one.

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Posted : 25/12/2018 8:18 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Is there evidence of expansion that shows teeth staying in bone?  If so... how far?

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Posted : 25/12/2018 8:19 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

For someone who does not have dental crowding, but a smaller arch perimeter (such as due to extractions or teeth not blossoming to their optimal size)....

If an overall expansion is achieved (width and length) of the dental arches... then if there are associated gaps in teeth... how do these resolve or do they?  I have read that teeth will tend to float forward... but wasn't sure about molars.  I believe CDA moves these one by one forward.  I know that tooth size discrepancy can be address through tooth widening or potentially even implants.

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Posted : 26/12/2018 12:56 pm
LastQuestion
Active Member

Curious, you're in the same city, do you have an upcoming appointment, or..well how detailed can these questions be and what are the chances you can get a thorough answer? And we're talking about Dr. Bennet or Dr Liao?

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Posted : 26/12/2018 4:59 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Dr. Bennett.  I don't know how thorough of an answer...  but it's worth a shot.  🙂

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Posted : 26/12/2018 5:02 pm
LastQuestion
Active Member

Cool. I think Dr. Bennet has a better grasp than Dr. Liao on craniofacial issues. I do have questions I'd like to have answered, but not sure which one's to pick. I'll need to think on a it a bit. Is there a time limit by which you will need all questions submited?

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Posted : 27/12/2018 3:27 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member
Posted by: LastQuestion

Cool. I think Dr. Bennet has a better grasp than Dr. Liao on craniofacial issues. I do have questions I'd like to have answered, but not sure which one's to pick. I'll need to think on a it a bit. Is there a time limit by which you will need all questions submited?

Nah... just whenever.  Think about it.  🙂  Really, his office is pretty awesome.  They do some education for everyone who goes to see him.  He's the only consult I paid to see.  Definitely learned a lot.  I have a LOT of respect for him.  Saw people who come in from out of state there.

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Posted : 27/12/2018 3:38 pm
James
Eminent Member

I am researching DNA appliance for a friend. Questions:

- Possible growth in sagittal and tranverse planes?

- Treatment time to achieve this result?

- Does the appliance make it hard to have tongue on the roof of your mouth during sleep?

- Can it be billed in a way that insurance will reimburse some of it?

- Case studies with good photography (lighting and head angle)

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Posted : 28/12/2018 12:26 am
LastQuestion
Active Member
Posted by: James

I am researching DNA appliance for a friend. Questions:

- Possible growth in sagittal and tranverse planes?

- Treatment time to achieve this result?

- Does the appliance make it hard to have tongue on the roof of your mouth during sleep?

- Can it be billed in a way that insurance will reimburse some of it?

- Case studies with good photography (lighting and head angle)

I can answer most of these. Been researching DNA/Vivos for over a year now.

 

- published evidence indicates both transverse and sagittal growth. However, in my opinion the evidence isn't explicit and questions as to the nature of the remodeling that has occurred remain unanswered. I am trying to get better information for myself on this topic.

-Treatment times vary, which is part of why the published evidence is unclear. Some patients report improvement in 1 week. Which suggests the appliances main source of 'I feel better' may not involve remodeling and instead reposition of the mandible to positively influence airway. Whether that be protrusion as with MADs (the mRNA is a MAD) or simply chaning the vertical dimension to increase intra-oral volume through some method that insures the airway patiency improves, is unclear in many instances. For changes attributed to remodeling my observation is that improvement is reported about 3 months into treatment time, with noticeable improvements in quality of life at 6-8months and treatment completion, and in some cases symptom resolution, at 18 months.

- The appliance does impede myofunction simply because it takes up space. Presumably the bite blocks on the appliance can...compensate for this, but who really knows. The appliance, as I understand it, to some extent acts as a surrogate tongue while also providing additional force. With the 14-16 hour wear time, myofunctional therpay can occur during the day to retrain the tongue. Also, there are many variations of the Vivos/DNA so there is probably a version which is all wire and doesn't impair tongue on palate.

- When treating airway related dysfunction the ability to bill medical will depend upon the provider. For apnea, a simple diagnosis will make it easy for nearly any Vivos provider to bill medical. For cases of TMD, UARS, or somatic disorders associated with airway dysufnction, it requires siftin through the medical history and demonstrating how facial growth has influended the patients health and how this treatment aims to correct these issues. One then has to argue medical necessity with insurers which take sup more of the doctors time, which makes it hard to get it covered. Yet, for me, personally, this is my only option, as I do not have the financial means to access care. The medical system is broken, really, as I have multipole doctors (ENT , Sleep doc, PCP, Pscyh) all saying I need care, but none taking charge to insure that happens. I've had to become very involved to make simple things happen, and getting access to treatment remains elusive despite this. Yet, I have heard many times of doctors who do the work and get treatment covered, so it's not unheard it, it's not really even particularly hard, the hard part is that the doctor needs to become educated on the medical reasons as to why correcting craniofacial growth impacts medical issues and demonstrating that their ability to correct that facial growth will address those medical issues (if not with clinical trials, then with a very explicit illustration of the foundational science). Insurance can be very difficult to work with, and something many dentists are intimidated by, and opt to avoid however possible (by doing direct pay, or using a third-party service to bill medical, or saying 'you pay us, then we file on your behalf, and maybe you get something from insurance'.  I gather some Vivos providers use a third-party provided by Vivos corporate, and some have their own arrangements, and some do it in-house because they're already experienced with TMD/Sleep and did the work to become educated and train staff.

TLDR: Call the office and ask the staff of the practice on their billing practices with medical.

- There is published research on the DNA/Vivos which shows a lot of promise. It's not as explicit as Won Moon's MSE research. I have other issues with the research that I am trying to get answers to. My opinion is the appliance is doing something, in some people, some of the time, but it's unclear what. Why did the AHI drop from 70 to 1? Is it really because the jaws remodeled, or is it for other reasons...there's so much going on with airway to where honestly the published research is somewhat misleading in some instances, and in others was published before some knowledge became more well-known and thus may have simply been overlooked. Appliance therapy with the DNA does seem to provide positive results in some cases, and in others there some sign that maybe the positive results aren't really so positive. This is something I'm looking into and think eventually I'll need to make a youtube video about to educate others about (patients primarily, but also providers).

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Posted : 28/12/2018 11:18 am
Neigh and Apollo liked
James
Eminent Member

Thanks, that definitely helps. During a consult with a DNA appliance provider, I was quoted 5mm in both directions as possible. I decided to go with the AGGA in the end, because I felt that I might need more than 5mm forward growth, and AGGA had more information about sagittal results. I also hoped that despite a long treatment time, the AGGA would "front-load" the results earlier in the treatment to help my sleep. But the DNA appliance could make sense for someone who needs more transverse growth and less forward growth than I do.

Another question: Does the DNA appliance require a braces phase after to close gaps? How long is this phase? We need this info to know the total treatment time.

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Posted : 29/12/2018 1:07 am
Neigh liked
LastQuestion
Active Member
Posted by: James

 

Another question: Does the DNA appliance require a braces phase after to close gaps? How long is this phase? We need this info to know the total treatment time.

I haven't noticed any major gaps presenting with the cases I've seen for the DNA/Vivos. No diastema. Some spacing between the teeth increases, suggesting either jaw growth or (devils advocate) teeth tipping. Though I do believe they have reclaimed premolar spaces using this technique. DNA/vivos expands slowers and seems to do things differently; promotes growth like the body is 'supposed to' and thus it adapts  without needing braces to move stuff into place. The face knows how to organize itself when the right inputs are provided. Though, it seems relatively common to finish some cases with aligners or braces, it's unclear how much of that is cosmetic or geared towards orthopaedics/airway.

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Posted : 29/12/2018 1:45 pm
James
Eminent Member
Posted by: LastQuestion

I haven't noticed any major gaps presenting with the cases I've seen for the DNA/Vivos. No diastema. Some spacing between the teeth increases, suggesting either jaw growth or (devils advocate) teeth tipping. Though I do believe they have reclaimed premolar spaces using this technique. DNA/vivos expands slowers and seems to do things differently; promotes growth like the body is 'supposed to' and thus it adapts  without needing braces to move stuff into place. The face knows how to organize itself when the right inputs are provided. Though, it seems relatively common to finish some cases with aligners or braces, it's unclear how much of that is cosmetic or geared towards orthopaedics/airway.

Hmmm, if there is expansion without opening up spaces, this would definitely be a big advantage over treatments like AGGA, where 2/3rds of the treatment is braces to deal with the gaps and move the back teeth up. However, I would worry that without spaces, it's hard to prove how much expansion happened. Even ALF, which works very slowly can cause spaces, so there must be something special about the DNA appliance if it's getting expansion without spaces.

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Posted : 31/12/2018 5:36 pm
LastQuestion
Active Member
Posted by: James

Hmmm, if there is expansion without opening up spaces, this would definitely be a big advantage over treatments like AGGA, where 2/3rds of the treatment is braces to deal with the gaps and move the back teeth up. However, I would worry that without spaces, it's hard to prove how much expansion happened. Even ALF, which works very slowly can cause spaces, so there must be something special about the DNA appliance if it's getting expansion without spaces.

AGGA does things different from DNA/Vivos. AGGA is mostly all just AP repositioning, while DNA does more palatal expansion and some AP/Midfacial growth and...I think, maybe it can change maxillary cant/pitch/yaw to some extent while agga just draws things forward. Not a lot of information on AGGA and my knowledge has limitations. Could be AGGA does far more than I think it does; uncertain due to lack of published data.

 

In my view, combining the two treatments could have benefits as each has limitations and strengths. I think the theory of craniofacial epigenetics has a great deal of merit; the idea that waking up genes which are dormant through the right signals would then allow those genes to fully express could easily account for the growth we see both in AGGA and the DNA/Vivos. I think, in the paradigm of epigenetics AGGA and Vivos are incomplete in getting genes to express, and I think that is why combing them is likely to yield a superior result.

Another way to say it is, many of us with craniofacial underdevelopment have a phenotype of genetic expression (Class 1, 2, 3, high-arched palate, etc). The AGGA can influence part of the genes leading to the phenotype, and alter the phenotype in one way, but in others, it does not. So too can the DNA/Vivos. In terms of a metaphor, it's like having a room with toys on the floor everywhere - problem, cluttered floor; type of clutter, toys; solution, clean floor; the AGGA cleans one part of the floor and the DNA cleans another part, and that leaves us with a mostly clean floor, but parts of the floor will still be cluttered. We're really in our infancy in trying to understand how and why the face grows and ways to influence it for 'ideal' growth. I think it's quite likely that while some of the genes involved can be woken up, and stems cells recruited to remodel and provide new growth, there will be aspects which are tied into early development and we won't be able to influence non-surgically. Keep in mind, that with this theory we have an explanation for what is occuring, but it doesn't offer much in terms of predictability. The field of epigenetics shows different people have different responses to the same inputs due to differences in biology - how to consistently get optimal outcomes isn't established. It'll be many years until that day, but currently there are options where before there were little to none.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 2:15 pm
Neigh liked
James
Eminent Member

It definitely sounds correct that each expander addresses some aspect of the problem. Unclear whether the mechanism is epigenetic, or whether the DNA appliance is more epigenetic than other appliances (though it's true that jaw development is not genetically fixed).

AGGA treatment does have some transverse expansion in the braces phase, when the sagittal expander has been taken out and the FRLA intermolar wire put in. My understanding is that the FRLA provides transverse expansion (up to 7mm my dentist claims), while the wire provides an anchor for the braces without retracting the expansion from the AGGA phase. Here is one of Anne Maree Cole's finished cases with the results.

What I am now wondering is if there is some difference between the transverse expansion of the FRLA in the Controlled Arch phase, vs the DNA appliance.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 4:43 pm
chickenita
Active Member

I have been wearing the DNA for over 15 months now. My health (TMJ and sleep) improved a lot. My treatment isn't finished yet but if anybody has questions I'll do my best to answer them.

However I'm also quite interested what darkindigo will find out 🙂

 

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Posted : 02/01/2019 2:52 pm
LastQuestion
Active Member
Posted by: chickenita

I have been wearing the DNA for over 15 months now. My health (TMJ and sleep) improved a lot. My treatment isn't finished yet but if anybody has questions I'll do my best to answer them.

However I'm also quite interested what darkindigo will find out 🙂

 

Well, I'd be very interested in pictures showing progress so far. Any information on treatment progress (how much expansion, increases in nasal volume or pharyngeal volume, etc). Also curious which Dr. you saw and your impression of them.

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Posted : 02/01/2019 4:49 pm
chickenita
Active Member

I measured my intermolar width and it increased from 34/35mm to 39mm. However my orthodontist prefers another method of measurement. I expanded about 1mm a month.

I have never measured my nasal volume or pharyngeal volume. But nasal breathing got a lot easier.

As I already got threatened by my previous orthodontist and my insurance I'm afraid to post pics. I'm sorry.

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Posted : 03/01/2019 6:37 am
LastQuestion
Active Member

@chickenita

Threatened by your ortho and insurance? Seems odd that they'd want to limit you from sharing your medical records however you choose. I'm not sure that's even legal.

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Posted : 03/01/2019 10:35 am
James
Eminent Member

Here's another question: Does the DNA appliance require monthly adjustments like AGGA and most other appliances?

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Posted : 08/01/2019 3:29 pm
LastQuestion
Active Member
Posted by: James

Here's another question: Does the DNA appliance require monthly adjustments like AGGA and most other appliances?

Yes. It is adjusted usually once of a month. I've heard of providers extending visits though. doing 1 0.25mm turn every 10 days instead of every 7, which would alter the once of a month to a bit longer between visits.

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Posted : 08/01/2019 4:34 pm
ladida
Active Member

Don't know if this is a dumb question but I'll ask anyways. Would the doctor be willing to treat patients out of the country? As in the patients sending plaster casts and the doctor creating the appliances for them? 

I ordered a palate expander from Germany, but I'm not sure it will cause any effect in forward growth as they say the DNA does. And I'm not able to travel at the moment :/

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Posted : 08/01/2019 6:01 pm
posturized
New Member

Any more updates on DNA appliance - is it the same as Homeoblock? My dentist uses Homeoblock and said it's the same device - and he said FRLA is superior as it works quicker.

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Posted : 21/08/2019 4:29 am
ancoratu
Active Member

I'm also undergoing treatment with the DNA appliance. I got my upper appliance a few days ago. Today I woke up very refreshed, something that has not happened in a long time. I'm breathing much better. I believe the Vivos Appliance system is better than most other systems out there. 

I've seen results from AGGA and they look kind of unnatural. It doesn't make much sense to go for something like AGGA and then MSE and then not even get the results that nature would have intended.

Vivos DNA and mRNA appliance results look natural. Just take a look at the speaker in the video below who underwent the Vivos Treatment. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV_5gD4uj2Y

Her face looks so balanced. She is so emotionally calm and present which many individuals with craniofacial problems simply don't have. One is just attracted to look at her face and wonder how did she turn up so well. One pattern I've noticed in people is that those with the best-balanced faces are the ones that are able to get away with eating junk food and still remain in perfect health. 

The treatment has the possibility to fail in your mouth is under constant inflammation. Those cases that have failed they never told you their history,

how long they wore the device daily?

at what times did they wear the device?

what kind of dental work have they had done? 

were they eating proper nutrition to enable to body to grow new bone?

was the treatment monitored and administered under a competent dentist?

All these factors may influence the outcome of the treatment but it does work given the right conditions. 

My dentist is the best possible dentist one could possibly hope for. She graduated first in her class from Harvard school of dentistry and I think she's more excited about my treatment than I am as I'm yet to see insane results. Very lucky to have found her. It's also important to note that she and her partner are also undergoing the treatment. 

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Posted : 24/08/2019 1:40 pm
mom
 mom
New Member

@ancoratu

May I ask approximately how much this treatment is costing you? And how long it will take?

How does the Vivos appliance feel in your mouth at night? My son (19 yo) tried the myobrace for one night and spit it out. I know he needs some kind of appliance (he sleeps with mouth open and has sinus and tmj issues), but compliance is going to be an issue. 

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Posted : 13/09/2019 12:11 pm
ancoratu
Active Member

@mom

The treatment is expensive. It will cost at most 9.2k, a little bit less depending on the case. I'm not sure how long I'll have to wear it. My dentist said it would be a year since my condition requires approximately a year to fix. Treatment varies from patient to patient. I have a face mask that I have to wear along with the appliance to pull the upper jaw forward. I sleep with this mask and it is part of the treatment and should be worn at all times. The appliance is not uncomfortable. and doesn't fall out at night even though it is connected to the external mask. My DNA appliance (Upper appliance) even comes with an add-on which trains the tongue proper swallowing technique. I have yet to receive my lower appliance so I can't comment about that one, but the upper one is very comfortable albeit talking with it is indeed a challenge. 

I've only had the appliance for three weeks and I couldn't even breathe properly before. After wearing the appliance for only two weeks I could breathe better than ever before. It is a slow process but it works. As for getting your son to comply, I can't say much as the problems I've had due to my jaws being too far back and underdeveloped have been life-shattering. I knew I needed this desperately and there isn't a day where I don't wear my appliance for the required 14 hours. The VIVOS treatment will change someone's face into a much more symmetrical attractive face thus you may use this to persuade him to comply based on this superficial factor. 

Issues of this kind only get worse with time as I have experienced. I'm only 22 years old and I'm experiencing horrible symptoms all related to craniofacial underdevelopment which affect my daily life negatively. I hope you can get your son to comply. Good luck. 

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Posted : 13/09/2019 5:22 pm
Neigh liked
Neigh
Active Member
Posted by: @ancoratu

Vivos DNA and mRNA appliance results look natural. Just take a look at the speaker in the video below who underwent the Vivos Treatment. 

I've noticed this as well. It's the leading reason I was drawn to DNA/Vivos over MSE. MSE for sure makes a bigger difference. Even from the outside, you can easily see the maxilla expansion. The problem is, most men with narrow palettes *also* suffer from weak jaws and recessed chins. In men especially, the wider maxilla only servers to highlight and emphasize this problem. So while the smile looks better, his overall facial appearance isn't strongly improved. He ends up looking better in one sense, but as a whole looks even more "off". One patient in particular went from looking weak and underdeveloped to almost looking deformed.

From what I've seen, an MSE for someone with a weak jaw and recessed chin is only advisable if paired up with either a BSSO or a wrap around jaw implant.

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Posted : 04/10/2019 12:27 am
ancoratu
Active Member

@neigh

The Vivos System is not meant to make a person look like a model. Models are born not made. Vivos will change your face in very subtle ways. I already look very different than when I started. My upper face appears fuller, my jaws have moved slightly forward, my breathing is phenomenal. I'm not entirely sure of this but Vivos aims at giving the patient what they should have had if they had grown under perfect conditions for craniofacial development. Under this idea, once the treatment is finished you can go on with your life as opposed to looking for other treatments to fix the part of the equation that your current treatment failed to address. 

There's no use in undergoing Agga, or MSE if they eventually solve a problem yet create another one. The Vivos system is utterly gentle and it moves linearly, one step at a time, as opposed to other alternatives that move one step forward but two steps back. Vivos is mainly addressing breathing, airway, and overall well-being by default maps to the development of underdeveloped jaws. 

The belief that everyone should have killer jaws and model-like bone structures are likely flawed. This can be proven by looking at before and afters of AGGA treatment. As you said, the faces look deformed. One guy looked like a completely different species.  Their faces were not designed to contain the jaws that AGGA has given them. 

Vivos will never go outside of bounds. It will give you exactly what you're supposed to have, no more, no less. It is a treatment to enhance all areas of your life, not only your facial structure. Additionally, most of these other alternative treatments pale in comparison to Vivos in the testing as they don't seem to care too much about what's going on inside. Vivos will create a completely unique treatment plan based on a series of tests including a sleep apnea test + dental ct scan which they will use to model your airway. After the treatment, they will test again and show you the results. 

My replies definitely sound like an advertisement but I'm sort of explaining my reasoning as to why I decided to get for the mysterious arcane "epigenetics" route rather than the brute force alternatives. 

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Posted : 04/10/2019 9:29 am
Neigh liked
eternally12
Active Member

I'm currently in the process of determining whether to undergo AGGA or DNA appliance treatment. One orthodontist I spoke to advised I needed at least 1cm growth both laterally and forward but wasn't comfortable treating adults without surgery, yet another one advised he thought 5-7mms would be good (he recommended homeoblock for my case which from what I understand is basically the same as the DNA appliance). As such I have gone for a third opinion, this time to a DNA appliance provider who also does AGGA. He has given me a one night sleep test kit to do at home and advised that depending on the results of that will determine what his recommended device is. Funnily enough, the orthodontist that recommended the homeoblock said that my issue wasn't really forward growth but more so transverse growth. I guess this would make sense then that he recommended the homeoblock instead of AGGA as from my understanding AGGA does not really address lateral growth (it does to a limited degree in the controlled arch brace phase). I'm curious to see what the DNA provider recommends to me based on the results of my sleep study. I suppose he will recommend AGGA if my results are worse than expected, but I'm leaning more towards the DNA appliance system at this stage from what I have read. AGGA seems to leave more room for further issues down the line.

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Posted : 11/03/2020 12:58 am
Mieko
Active Member

@ancoratu

Hey there.  How is it going with DNA? I read this whole thread and I want to know more.  I have TMD (extraction orthodontics as a teen).  I am considering ALF or VIVOS.

Thank you for your previous informative posts!

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Posted : 07/09/2020 11:20 pm
ancoratu
Active Member

@mieko

I finished my treatment some months ago and I can definitely tout that it works if you wear the appliance and all accessories for the required time. Vivos will not give you an unnatural looking face like a lot of these other devices; it aims for balance and what nature would of given you under perfect conditions. My teeth are not perfectly aligned as far as conventional standards are concerned but my bite is certainly aligned and comfortable. Both of my jaws came forward. I no longer open my mouth to breathe during sleep. 

It's a worthy investment if you can afford it. Most other appliances yield dubious results but Vivos is mainly controlled by the STEM cells in your teeth so it's mostly a natural process with some mechanical adjustments over time. 

 

 

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Posted : 08/09/2020 6:31 am
Thomas22 liked
toomer
Estimable Member

@ancoratu

Thanks for sharing your story!  I agree with so much of what you posted about this last year.  Your point about "The belief that everyone should have killer jaws and model-like bone structures are likely flawed" is probably one of the single most important sentences anywhere on this forum.  I kind of get sad that some people here are so concerned about their appearances despite having perfectly functional jaws and airways.

I, myself, do not have perfectly functional jaws and airways.  So for me, the consideration of Vivos (which I hope to get started on next month) is - to a certain degree - life and death (I am severe obstructive sleep apnea, but currently being "managed" via CPAP).

One question for you, if you don't mind my asking?  How did your provider know you were "done"?  This is the one part of the Vivos equation I've simply not been able to uncover.  I know pretty much every other part of the protocol and how they deliver it ... but I have no idea how any particular provider comes to the conclusion that a patient's treatment has completed.  Obviously, if you try to push too far you would risk damaging the oral structures ... but I've no idea how individual providers figure out when a patient has crossed the finish line.

Have you considered post-treatment traditional orthodontics to get your smile aligned back nicely again?  Seems like some patients seem to do this, whereas others just decide to skip it.

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Posted : 08/09/2020 9:56 am
ancoratu
Active Member

@toomer

When I first received my appliance my dentist told me that she wasn't sure whether I'd need an additional appliance with wider range. What happened was that I didn't even completely open the first appliance to complete the treatment. Two months before I was told to stop opening the appliance further they did dental impressions which showed that the roof of my mouth was a replica of the upper appliance. At that point she was probably suspecting that I was done with the appliance. In my last visit she told me that opening it too much could be problematic and that I had finished my treatment. 

The appliance has some strange springs on the front which stimulate the stem cells in your teeth. This is the secret to the device and explains why I made so much progress without having to open the device to its limit. I don't intend to have any other orthodontic treatment as I'm not interested in having a "perfect smile".

 

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Posted : 08/09/2020 7:08 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@ancoratu

 Do you feel that your face became more symmetrical? Do you see a difference between your before and after photos?

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Posted : 08/09/2020 9:45 pm
toomer
Estimable Member

@ancoratu

Thanks! That tends to mirror other inputs I’ve received, that it kind of just becomes a “we’re done when we’re done” kind of thing.

So were you a sleep apnea or UARS patient, is that why you sought out Vivos treatment?

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Posted : 08/09/2020 11:37 pm
ancoratu
Active Member

@thomas22

I already had a symmetric face before the treatment but my jaws were out of order. My upper jaw was too far back. When the upper jaw is corrected the lower jaw moves forward automatically. I had the biggest changes in the cheek area, much more defined cheeks, my lips look much better. I also had my jaws come forward which give me a more masculine appearance. Before the treatment I looked childish and underdeveloped, after the treatment I looked like a man. 

I don't have the official before and after images of the treatment but I can muster up some images from before the treatment and some after and post them here. Give me sometime I'll set it up and post it here later.

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Posted : 09/09/2020 8:23 am
Thomas22 liked
ancoratu
Active Member

@toomer

I had some mysterious health issues when I sought out the treatment but I also had orthodontic issues. I had a tongue tie and got that corrected. I did have like a 5 in the sleep apnea test which then came down to a 4 after the treatment. I don't think I had severe Apnea but my sleep was pretty bad likely due to putting my body through stressful situations. 

Vivos will indeed increase the amount of oxygen that your body is able to receive due to greater airway volume but it is also not the entire equation. There's the Borh Effect to take into consideration. More oxygen doesn't mean that your body will use more oxygen. There are exercises out there that normalize one's breath such that oxygenation in the body is improved greatly. 

I had some type of mild asthma, chronic bronchitis, or something along that realm that I hoped Vivos would also fix but it did not fix it. I'm currently employing strelnikova gymnastics in order to normalize my breathing. I've been doing these exercises for a week and I've noticed great results. 

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Posted : 09/09/2020 8:32 am
toomer
Estimable Member

@ancoratu

Thanks for the additional info!  I wish you well as you continue your journey!  The entire breathing equation is a complicated one, for sure ... and I think we are just starting to unlock its secrets.  Certainly, getting enough air initially - making sure airways aren't impaired/cramped - is the first step, and that's something that Vivos seems like it can help with.

My wife just sent me an interesting link the other day about a technique from the "Postural Restoration Institute" that is very breathing focused - apparently there's a guy on YouTube and he's actually trained a couple hundred people, including physical trainers and ... dentists.

https://elemental.medium.com/everything-you-know-about-good-posture-is-wrong-cca9b941b651

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Posted : 09/09/2020 10:14 am
mysterecessed
Active Member
Posted by: @ancoratu

@neigh

The Vivos System is not meant to make a person look like a model. Models are born not made. Vivos will change your face in very subtle ways. I already look very different than when I started. My upper face appears fuller, my jaws have moved slightly forward, my breathing is phenomenal. I'm not entirely sure of this but Vivos aims at giving the patient what they should have had if they had grown under perfect conditions for craniofacial development. Under this idea, once the treatment is finished you can go on with your life as opposed to looking for other treatments to fix the part of the equation that your current treatment failed to address. 

There's no use in undergoing Agga, or MSE if they eventually solve a problem yet create another one. The Vivos system is utterly gentle and it moves linearly, one step at a time, as opposed to other alternatives that move one step forward but two steps back. Vivos is mainly addressing breathing, airway, and overall well-being by default maps to the development of underdeveloped jaws. 

The belief that everyone should have killer jaws and model-like bone structures are likely flawed. This can be proven by looking at before and afters of AGGA treatment. As you said, the faces look deformed. One guy looked like a completely different species.  Their faces were not designed to contain the jaws that AGGA has given them. 

Vivos will never go outside of bounds. It will give you exactly what you're supposed to have, no more, no less. It is a treatment to enhance all areas of your life, not only your facial structure. Additionally, most of these other alternative treatments pale in comparison to Vivos in the testing as they don't seem to care too much about what's going on inside. Vivos will create a completely unique treatment plan based on a series of tests including a sleep apnea test + dental ct scan which they will use to model your airway. After the treatment, they will test again and show you the results. 

My replies definitely sound like an advertisement but I'm sort of explaining my reasoning as to why I decided to get for the mysterious arcane "epigenetics" route rather than the brute force alternatives. 

Hey, just wanted to ask did the DNA appliance manage to split your midpalatal suture? If not, where is the expansion coming from?

Does the DNA appliance promise forward growth and upswing? Or just forward and lateral expansion?

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Posted : 11/09/2020 6:39 am
ancoratu
Active Member

@mysterecessed

I have already explained on some of my previous posts that most of the changes occur due to the vibrations exerted on the teeth by the unique springs on the DNA appliance.

I don't think that Vivos system can split midpalatal suture as it is incredibly gentle and in fact if there's inflammation in the mouth it will not work. 

The Vivos system is designed specifically for each patient thus I can't answer all of these questions. You're better off going to a good dentist who is trained in Vivos and once they do the preliminary exams they can tell you exactly what their system can do for you. 

 

 

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Posted : 11/09/2020 8:37 am
ancoratu
Active Member

For those interested in a before and after here you go. Not the most ideal images as they don't compare the same postures. In the before image the face is very skinny and narrow. There's also a lack of definition on the cheekbones area. 

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Posted : 11/09/2020 10:52 am
Thomas22 liked
toomer
Estimable Member
Posted by: @mysterecessed
Hey, just wanted to ask did the DNA appliance manage to split your midpalatal suture? If not, where is the expansion coming from?

Does the DNA appliance promise forward growth and upswing? Or just forward and lateral expansion?

If you just focus on "split the mid-palatal suture", you're looking at things the wrong way.  You're trying to take a DOME or MSE or EASE success metric which is two-dimensional, and assume it is the one you should be using.

Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, that is how Vivos views this.  So if you keep chasing "mm's of spit at the suture" you'll likely end up disappointed.

Vivos believes that changes are happening in 3 dimensions, everywhere.  Pay attention to figure 4 and table 2 in this peer-reviewed research report - they measured total bone volume (not just width) pre- and post-treatment, and were able to document about 2 additional cubic centimeters of bone material.  That's the size of a set of six-sided dice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264298692_Changes_in_3D_Midfacial_Parameters_after_Biomimetic_Oral_Appliance_Therapy_in_Adults

The only thing that DNA promises (and even that, is not a guarantee) is that you have a good chance of having your sleep apnea cured if you are in the "mild" or "moderate" tiers.  That is because they believe that not only the changes in the maxilla and the palate are at work, but also sinus cavities getting bigger (documented), nasal passages getting bigger (documented), and pharyngeal structures getting bigger.

So you're never really going to find "how many mm's can you make?" research for them ... because they don't seem to think it's the right playing field for them to be arguing on.

You can agree with it or disagree ... but I wanted to save you some trouble of trying to keep tracking down something that you won't find, because Vivos doesn't think it's important.  They even have one case they presented where a patient got about 1mm additional transpalatal width ... but actually cut their AHI from 14 down to 7.  That's pretty significant.  That's why they specifically state "this is not palatal expansion."

Any changes that might be happening in the suture, are believed to be due to stretching forces.  The simultaneous downward suction created by appliance making contact with the roof of your mouth only when you swallow, combined with the light outward forces laterally.  Imagine standing inside of a little monopoly house, and tying a rope to the roof and gently tugging at it, while also gently pushing out at the walls.  All through intermittent signaling (not constant force like AGGA).  The roof will lower, even if you don't make any additional roofing material.  You'll get more transpalatal width and you will lower your nasal floor (very big for us OSA people) even if there is zero bone creation at the suture.

MSE jams a crowbar into the roof and splits the monopoly house in two.  So, that's another way to do it.  But IMO it might not deal as well with the "vaulted maxilla" situation that many OSA/UARS patients are coping with.

Here's something else for you to review - they used these same kind of "intermittent stretching" forces on the palatal sutures in rats and guess what?  The sutures grew: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5417680/

I believe there is a scientist at Columbia who has replicated the same type of research, but in humans.

There are no other promises outside of having a good chance of lowering your AHI, potentially to the point of being cured.

But if you want to see an example of "upswing" - here's a very early DNA patient (a dentist in FL, who then became a provider as well):

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Posted : 11/09/2020 1:51 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Estimable Member

@toomer this is a way better explanation than the one I got at my patient education session.  They should hire you to do it.

The only thing that bothers me about the Before/After they included (the one you've included above) is that the angles of those two pictures are so painfully different.  In the before it's clearly taken from a much lower angle.  I don't doubt she's made a lot of progress though.

 

 

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Posted : 11/09/2020 4:29 pm
toomer
Estimable Member
Posted by: @drunkwithcoffee

@toomer this is a way better explanation than the one I got at my patient education session.  They should hire you to do it.

The only thing that bothers me about the Before/After they included (the one you've included above) is that the angles of those two pictures are so painfully different.  In the before it's clearly taken from a much lower angle.  I don't doubt she's made a lot of progress though.

Thanks!  Only spent about the last 9 months studying everything I could about them, before pulling the trigger.

I agree, the before-and-after photos weren't a perfect match of angles ... and I don't think they were even meant to be before-and-afters ... I think they are just both of her professional headshots for her dentistry practice.  But it still seems pretty obvious the DNA appliance resolved her "gummy smile".  

My wife has a gummy smile.  Head angle doesn't make that big of a difference ... you still see it.

Dr. Griffin's case was at least 7 years ago I think, you can actually watch her present her complete case at the Vivos conference - including CBCT views and all: https://vimeo.com/296958510

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Posted : 11/09/2020 8:29 pm
mysterecessed
Active Member
Posted by: @drunkwithcoffee

@toomer this is a way better explanation than the one I got at my patient education session.  They should hire you to do it.

The only thing that bothers me about the Before/After they included (the one you've included above) is that the angles of those two pictures are so painfully different.  In the before it's clearly taken from a much lower angle.  I don't doubt she's made a lot of progress though.

 

 

Actually, when you're downswung, you tend to look better if you take pictures from a lower angle as it shows off your jaw/chin height. If you take pictures straight-on your chin tends to look really weak or short. I'm not saying anything scientific of course, just an observation.

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Posted : 11/09/2020 8:33 pm
Thomas22 liked
drunkwithcoffee
Estimable Member

@toomer Yeah I appreciate everything you've typed.  I'm in the same boat, on the verge of pulling the trigger and feverishly researching.  My worst fear right now is dropping $8k for it to do nothing, but so far anecdotally it seems to have helped a lot of people.

@mysterecessed Good to know, and if that's truly the case then it definitely helps the Vivos case

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Posted : 11/09/2020 11:35 pm
toomer
Estimable Member
Posted by: @drunkwithcoffee

@toomer Yeah I appreciate everything you've typed.  I'm in the same boat, on the verge of pulling the trigger and feverishly researching.  My worst fear right now is dropping $8k for it to do nothing, but so far anecdotally it seems to have helped a lot of people.

 

I looked at things on a scale.  I had to ponder whether any solution would:

1) likely help, if not potentially cure

2) perhaps not do much of anything

3) potentially cause harm

For me, Vivos landed firmly in the #1 and #2 category.  I ruled out AGGA pretty quickly once I saw Ronald's case.

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Posted : 12/09/2020 1:37 pm
mysterecessed
Active Member
Posted by: @drunkwithcoffee

@toomer Yeah I appreciate everything you've typed.  I'm in the same boat, on the verge of pulling the trigger and feverishly researching.  My worst fear right now is dropping $8k for it to do nothing, but so far anecdotally it seems to have helped a lot of people.

@mysterecessed Good to know, and if that's truly the case then it definitely helps the Vivos case

Yea I'm at the same place you are too, just afraid that I'll spend all that time and money for no result. Read a lot of good things about the DNA from people using it here though.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/09/2020 8:17 am
Thomas22
Trusted Member

@ancoratu Thank you for sharing your photos.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/09/2020 8:51 pm
mysterecessed
Active Member
Posted by: @toomer
Posted by: @mysterecessed
Hey, just wanted to ask did the DNA appliance manage to split your midpalatal suture? If not, where is the expansion coming from?

Does the DNA appliance promise forward growth and upswing? Or just forward and lateral expansion?

If you just focus on "split the mid-palatal suture", you're looking at things the wrong way.  You're trying to take a DOME or MSE or EASE success metric which is two-dimensional, and assume it is the one you should be using.

Whether you agree with that sentiment or not, that is how Vivos views this.  So if you keep chasing "mm's of spit at the suture" you'll likely end up disappointed.

Vivos believes that changes are happening in 3 dimensions, everywhere.  Pay attention to figure 4 and table 2 in this peer-reviewed research report - they measured total bone volume (not just width) pre- and post-treatment, and were able to document about 2 additional cubic centimeters of bone material.  That's the size of a set of six-sided dice.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264298692_Changes_in_3D_Midfacial_Parameters_after_Biomimetic_Oral_Appliance_Therapy_in_Adults

The only thing that DNA promises (and even that, is not a guarantee) is that you have a good chance of having your sleep apnea cured if you are in the "mild" or "moderate" tiers.  That is because they believe that not only the changes in the maxilla and the palate are at work, but also sinus cavities getting bigger (documented), nasal passages getting bigger (documented), and pharyngeal structures getting bigger.

So you're never really going to find "how many mm's can you make?" research for them ... because they don't seem to think it's the right playing field for them to be arguing on.

You can agree with it or disagree ... but I wanted to save you some trouble of trying to keep tracking down something that you won't find, because Vivos doesn't think it's important.  They even have one case they presented where a patient got about 1mm additional transpalatal width ... but actually cut their AHI from 14 down to 7.  That's pretty significant.  That's why they specifically state "this is not palatal expansion."

Any changes that might be happening in the suture, are believed to be due to stretching forces.  The simultaneous downward suction created by appliance making contact with the roof of your mouth only when you swallow, combined with the light outward forces laterally.  Imagine standing inside of a little monopoly house, and tying a rope to the roof and gently tugging at it, while also gently pushing out at the walls.  All through intermittent signaling (not constant force like AGGA).  The roof will lower, even if you don't make any additional roofing material.  You'll get more transpalatal width and you will lower your nasal floor (very big for us OSA people) even if there is zero bone creation at the suture.

MSE jams a crowbar into the roof and splits the monopoly house in two.  So, that's another way to do it.  But IMO it might not deal as well with the "vaulted maxilla" situation that many OSA/UARS patients are coping with.

Here's something else for you to review - they used these same kind of "intermittent stretching" forces on the palatal sutures in rats and guess what?  The sutures grew: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5417680/

I believe there is a scientist at Columbia who has replicated the same type of research, but in humans.

There are no other promises outside of having a good chance of lowering your AHI, potentially to the point of being cured.

But if you want to see an example of "upswing" - here's a very early DNA patient (a dentist in FL, who then became a provider as well):

Hey, thanks for taking the time to explain this. Yea I was pretty hung up on the mid palatal suture split as I thought it was the only way to achieve forward growth or upswing in adults. I'm really surprised that you can get forward growth with the DNA appliance without any suture splits. Do you have any theories about this? Have you been experiencing forward growth and upswing yourself too?

Just to clarify, does DNA help align your top teeth as well and give results similar to braces in terms of having straight teeth? What's your experience so far?

Also, are you doing anything for your mandible or lower teeth as well? I have crowding on my lower teeth as well, which I think might suggest there could be room for growth? Anyway, I'd definitely need to do something if I do DNA on the top palate.

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Posted : 20/09/2020 3:30 am
toomer
Estimable Member
Posted by: @mysterecessed

Hey, thanks for taking the time to explain this. Yea I was pretty hung up on the mid palatal suture split as I thought it was the only way to achieve forward growth or upswing in adults. I'm really surprised that you can get forward growth with the DNA appliance without any suture splits. Do you have any theories about this? Have you been experiencing forward growth and upswing yourself too?

Just to clarify, does DNA help align your top teeth as well and give results similar to braces in terms of having straight teeth? What's your experience so far?

Also, are you doing anything for your mandible or lower teeth as well? I have crowding on my lower teeth as well, which I think might suggest there could be room for growth? Anyway, I'd definitely need to do something if I do DNA on the top palate.

So one thing I haven't quite gotten all the research down on yet, is that there is potentially forward growth but there is also potentially forward movement.  Both would be helpful, IMO, in treating sleep apnea.

I am not currently in the appliance.  My provider wanted to work on my mandible first to stabilize it and get my TMJs into the best possible spot first before starting on maxillary expansion.  I am expecting to get started in the next month or two.

Funny you mention braces - yes, that was actually the background/history on the entire invention.  Dr. Belfor in NYC (inventor of Homeoblock) says he was working with broadway professionals who would be going to do a new headshot photo for their portfolio, and they maybe wanted to straighten a tooth here or there, but they didn't want braces (and I think this was before Invisalign really was a thing).  So he built removable appliances to slowly do orthodontic (moving teeth) corrections from behind.  And then - if you hear him tell his story - these broadway professionals were not only happier with their straightened teeth, but they felt like their singing ability to carry and sustain a note had improved too.  That they were projecting better.

If you look around for some of the Homeoblock videos floating around out on YouTube and Vimeo, you can see some time-lapse views of the dental arch expanding and the teeth moving a bit to straighten.  Part of that is just the body doing it on its own (ancient skulls dug up almost always have perfect teeth, the body knows where to put them) but the "axial springs" in the front can also be used to nudge the teeth a little bit as needed.  The net result - if you listen to Dr. Singh or Dr. Belfor on this topic - is that most patients don't really need braces after treatment.  Some might opt for it to just perfect things a bit more, but many don't feel a need.

As for most patients going through DNA (I may be an exception, either based on my case when I started, or my provider just does things a bit differently) there is also a lower appliance that is often used as well, which also has a midline expansion screw.  Some patients need to wear that during the day, probably to help nudge a little bit more growth into the mandible above and beyond what normal chewing will do to make sure the upper and lower jaw are working together.

To be honest, it was this "dual" approach - appliances for both the upper and lower, which can then be coordinated with each other if needed (perhaps via hooks, or rubber bands, or whatever) to make sure both jaws evolve on a similar pathway - which made me really appreciate the DNA approach over other tools.  And this is in addition to the occlusal molar pads which are adjusted as-needed during visits to make sure good occlusion is maintained throughout treatment.

Finally, for me - DNA is the only one where the creator has actually published research on really curing sleep apnea.  Dr. Moon (MSE) has not published any research like that which I have found.  So being a severe sleep apnea patient, and once I felt that DNA was not like other appliances and I didn't think there was risk to my teeth ... it became the #1 choice on my list.

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Posted : 20/09/2020 11:34 am
Thomas22 liked
hannah7404
New Member

@ancoratu  Did you have spacing in your teeth with treatment?

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Posted : 03/12/2020 2:15 pm
ancoratu
Active Member

@hannah7404

Yes, It happened because I opened the appliance too much. The spacing fixed itself after I stopped wearing the appliance once my dentist told me that my treatment was done.

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Posted : 03/12/2020 8:01 pm
toomer
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ancoratu

@hannah7404

Yes, It happened because I opened the appliance too much. The spacing fixed itself after I stopped wearing the appliance once my dentist told me that my treatment was done.

Did you expand the appliance beyond where your DNA dentist advised you to?  Or just faster than he/she advised you to?  Because spacing between teeth is not necessarily an unexpected effect from this treatment.

If you imagine driving a tiny car from your upper left rear molar all the way around the incisors and back to your upper right rear molar - in theory that “travel distance” around the arch is going to get longer as you expand.  But your teeth are obviously going to stay the same size.  Thus, spacing is somewhat inevitable for most patients.   Sometimes the body will re-shuffle the teeth back into good position (if there was crowding), sometimes it won’t and patients just leave it, and sometimes braces are a follow-up phase afterwards.

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Posted : 05/12/2020 1:56 pm
ancoratu
Active Member

@toomer

I opened the appliance every two weeks which was not the average for someone of my age. I didn't feel right if I opened sooner than that. My dentist recommended at the time that I opened the appliance every four days. My dentist rescinded her recommendation after I told her I didn't felt ok opening it twice a week and I went back to opening it once every 1.5-2 weeks. 

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Posted : 05/12/2020 8:14 pm
hannah7404
New Member

How big was the spacing? Was in the front or back of teeth?

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Posted : 11/12/2020 10:12 am
toomer
Estimable Member

@hannah7404 DNA providers can generally approach this a couple different ways.  If they want to "recapture" previous bicuspid extraction spaces to then put in implants, there are ways that they can try to target that.  But if someone doesn't want to do 4 implants to replace teeth that were taken away in childhood braces ... the space just kind of occurs everywhere, and then post-DNA orthodontics can be used (brackets or Invisalign) to straighten up the teeth again.  This may involve pulling the molars forwards, though, which takes a bit more time/work as far as I understand it.

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Posted : 11/12/2020 12:54 pm
hannah7404
New Member

I am not understanding you Toomer. 

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Posted : 11/12/2020 2:18 pm
hannah7404
New Member

@ancoratu do you have pictures of your teeth before and after?

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Posted : 12/12/2020 7:45 am
toomer
Estimable Member

@hannah7404 If you think about “travel distance” as measured from your left rear molar, around the front incisors, and to the right rear molar ... expansion will make that distance longer, but your teeth are the same size.

Imagine a tiny car driving from the top of your left molar, around the front, and back to the right molar.  That’s the distance I’m talking about getting longer with an expansion.

Maybe cars are a better analogy.  Imagine you have a 1 mile long stretch of road, and it is filled with cars that are perfectly bumper to bumper.  Now imagine you grab the road at each end and can stretch the road out to be 1.2 miles long.  There’s more road now, but the cars are still the same size.  So the cars will end up with space in between them somewhere, whereas previously they were all bumper-to-bumper.

If you get expansion, spacing is inevitable. The question will be where does it show up.   DNA providers have techniques where they can try to “direct” this space to accumulate right behind your canines if you want - some people who had bicuspid extractions for braces pursue that course, in order to basically re-add those teeth back via implants once the space is open.  But implants can be expensive, and some people don’t like them, so in some/many cases people just opt to let the spacing between the teeth to occur “wherever” naturally ... and then at the end make a decision about asthetics.  If it’s not too bad, they just leave it - one DNA provider told me they only do orthodontics in about 50% of cases.  But other patients often want to have a picture-perfect smile again, so they do braces or Invisalign after DNA to close up the spaces.

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Posted : 12/12/2020 9:18 am
toomer
Estimable Member
Posted by: @drunkwithcoffee

@toomer Yeah I appreciate everything you've typed.  I'm in the same boat, on the verge of pulling the trigger and feverishly researching.  My worst fear right now is dropping $8k for it to do nothing, but so far anecdotally it seems to have helped a lot of people.

So did you pull the trigger?

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Posted : 12/12/2020 9:57 am
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