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Frequent low tension facepulling: A potentially effective new technique for adjusting the skull by hand  

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Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: AlphaMinus

What makes anyone think that these clicking sounds in the skull are sutures opening? Do you have any solid e evidence of that? It seems unlikely. As far as I know these clicking sounds are common and a lot of people experience them whether they're mewing, facepulling or just going about their daily business. I myself have heard skull clicks my entire life, from childhood all the way into my 40's. I hear them when I'm walking, when I'm swallowing, when I'm working out and even when I'm lying in bed.  As far as I know they are the result of quite ordinary movement in the skull and have nothing to do with sutures opening. 

Were the sutures not open, what exactly would be moving? A cranium with completely closed sutures would be one block of bone. Where do you personally hear these movements? The ones that are only heard in the ear are just the eustachian tubes shifting. Real sutural shifts can usually be sensed in the place they occur. For me these shifts take place in the posterior base of the skull, which is also the area that has changed the most during these two years. It took one round of NCR to get this process started in the beginning.

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Posted : 29/12/2018 9:18 pm
Sceriff liked
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

Were the sutures not open, what exactly would be moving? A cranium with completely closed sutures would be one block of bone. Where do you personally hear these movements? The ones that are only heard in the ear are just the eustachian tubes shifting. Real sutural shifts can usually be sensed in the place they occur. For me these shifts take place in the posterior base of the skull, which is also the area that has changed the most during these two years. It took one round of NCR to get this process started in the beginning.

I personally get a ton of clicks and pops in that area when I am doing my physiotherapy session. Some times actually from just laying down.

Often they are so strong that my muscle twitch and my head moves slightly. I notice those are all coming from the muscles especially the ones that attached to the mastoid process and atlas/axis.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 29/12/2018 11:01 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Progress

Were the sutures not open, what exactly would be moving? A cranium with completely closed sutures would be one block of bone. Where do you personally hear these movements? The ones that are only heard in the ear are just the eustachian tubes shifting. Real sutural shifts can usually be sensed in the place they occur. For me these shifts take place in the posterior base of the skull, which is also the area that has changed the most during these two years. It took one round of NCR to get this process started in the beginning.

I personally get a ton of clicks and pops in that area when I am doing my physiotherapy session. Some times actually from just laying down.

Often they are so strong that my muscle twitch and my head moves slightly. I notice those are all coming from the muscles especially the ones that attached to the mastoid process and atlas/axis.

That is exactly how it is for me too. I'm constantly making those little head movements throughout the day. Over time you become familiar with certain postures and head positions where just rotating the head very slightly will result in such release.

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Posted : 30/12/2018 4:54 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

This is great and all, but could we have at least some picture documentation?

Yeah, I get the desire to see photos and evidence.

But the main reason I am doing this and put this idea forward was to see if we could prove that expansion is possible in adults using just the hands. Most people still believe in the whole 'palate gets fused' stuff so the idea that a person can just use their hands to expand their palate is something amazing. Based on the testimonials so far, it seems like it might be realistic.

So, the main goal for me personally is simply to get expansion. I never thought about aesthetics or anything like that. My main progress will be seeing the number go higher on my digital calipers. I don't mind sharing photos of my teeth molds when I am done though.

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Posted : 31/12/2018 6:09 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa

Yeah, I get the desire to see photos and evidence.

But the main reason I am doing this and put this idea forward was to see if we could prove that expansion is possible in adults using just the hands. Most people still believe in the whole 'palate gets fused' stuff so the idea that a person can just use their hands to expand their palate is something amazing. Based on the testimonials so far, it seems like it might be realistic.

So, the main goal for me personally is simply to get expansion. I never thought about aesthetics or anything like that. My main progress will be seeing the number go higher on my digital calipers. I don't mind sharing photos of my teeth molds when I am done though.

If you theoretically succeed in expanding your dental arch by finger pulling the effect will be in the alveolar part of the maxilla as that is the bone that responds to stimulation.  

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 31/12/2018 11:22 pm
Sceriff liked
Francybe92
Active Member

using just the hands. Most people still believe in the whole 'palate gets fused' stuff so the idea that a person can just use their hands to expand their palate is something amazing. Based on the testimonials so far, it seems like it might be realistic.

 

Really? We belive in the whole palate get fused "stuff"? You don't have to belive in midpalate suture fusion "stuff" because it's a fact. Not a theory a fact.

https://www.ajodo.org/article/S0889-5406(13)00746-4/pdf

And you can't reopen a fused suture. This is another fact

Do you really think to be the first one to think about re-opening the sutures using external forces? The experimentation in orthodontics has been going on for 100 years, and if they have not succeeded so far using special appliances, you will certainly not be able to do it using your thumbs. Don't waste time.

The only way you can possibly deform your bone (not reopening the sutures that remains impossible) is to surpass the point of elasticity of the bones and deform them as it would be for an iron bar.

An external file that holds a picture, illustration, etc.
Object name is 13018_2014_117_Fig1_HTML.jpg

You will probably need:

Pounds and pounds of pressure, a doctor, for assist you in case you reach the bones breaking point and finally a maxillofacial surgeon to restore the face you managed to deform.

When the sutures are closed are closed. This mean that they no longer exist and if they do not exist you can't reopen them. Its like trying to reopen the sutures on your femur. You can't because the femur has no sutures exactly as your palate after puberty.

 

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Posted : 01/01/2019 12:37 am
Allixa
Estimable Member

@progress

@admin

Looks like this forum has become inundated with pessimists since I last stopped by. What happened? Any solutions? Currently feels hostile to even try to experiment which is what this place used to be all about.

Doesn't feel open minded here anymore. Might have to move on.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 1:14 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa

@progress

@admin

Looks like this forum has become inundated with pessimists since I last stopped by. What happened? Any solutions? Currently feels hostile to even try to experiment which is what this place used to be all about.

Doesn't feel open minded here anymore. Might have to move on.

I think the previous post about the suture was unfair, but so is your comment (to a lesser extent of course).

The forum has improved allot over the time when people were just spreading unsubstantiated nonsense. What you see now is a natural consequence of that time. People get fed nonsense and believe in it, but can't get any results, so they come back to vent against it, and become hostile to the whole thing.

I think several members are playing a very positive role in dealing with this current by addressing things in a very objective way. @Sclera 's latest posts are excellent example of this.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 01/01/2019 1:27 am
Francybe92
Active Member
Posted by: Allixa

@progress

@admin

Looks like this forum has become inundated with pessimists since I last stopped by. What happened? Any solutions? Currently feels hostile to even try to experiment which is what this place used to be all about.

Doesn't feel open minded here anymore. Might have to move on.

Are you sugesting to ban every person who has different ideas from yours? Third Reich is ended in 1945. Anyway, there is no need to ban me, if you dont like my point of view and contribution to this forum @admin @progress let me know and i'll leave it by miself.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 2:01 am
Ayla31
Trusted Member
Posted by: Francybe92
 
Third Reich is ended in 1945.
 

Please don't. 

And I really don't think someone will get banned for having different ideas. It doesn't matter if they contradict each other, but sometimes it seems as it your posts come across as a little bit aggressive ("Really? We belive in the whole palate get fused "stuff"?") or really pessimistic ("I don't know guys"). You don't have to answer or agree with the posts in here, and your are entitled to your opinions and feelings...but we are here to help each other too or debate in a constructive way (that leads somewhere).

So I would suggest you to give your opinion in a way that doesn't dismiss other peoples experiences or at least leaves an open space for them to say something (instead of stopping them with a "that is probably a scam" or it's not possible). Even if you know you are 200% right.

That's just my opinion.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 8:02 am
Greensmoothies, Apollo, Sclera and 1 people liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

Members who do not like interacting with another member are encouraged to avoid conversation with them. Responses to posts can be written to anyone reading the thread instead of as a direct response to the user you dislike speaking with.

If you want to bring Admin attention to a thread/post/user for any reason, use either the report button or @admin and the whole thread will be reviewed. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted : 01/01/2019 10:29 am
Ayla31 liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Francybe92

using just the hands. Most people still believe in the whole 'palate gets fused' stuff so the idea that a person can just use their hands to expand their palate is something amazing. Based on the testimonials so far, it seems like it might be realistic.

 

Really? We belive in the whole palate get fused "stuff"? You don't have to belive in midpalate suture fusion "stuff" because it's a fact. Not a theory a fact.

https://www.ajodo.org/article/S0889-5406(13)00746-4/pdf

And you can't reopen a fused suture. This is another fact

Do you really think to be the first one to think about re-opening the sutures using external forces? The experimentation in orthodontics has been going on for 100 years, and if they have not succeeded so far using special appliances, you will certainly not be able to do it using your thumbs. Don't waste time.

The only way you can possibly deform your bone (not reopening the sutures that remains impossible) is to surpass the point of elasticity of the bones and deform them as it would be for an iron bar.

An external file that holds a picture, illustration, etc.
Object name is 13018_2014_117_Fig1_HTML.jpg

You will probably need:

Pounds and pounds of pressure, a doctor, for assist you in case you reach the bones breaking point and finally a maxillofacial surgeon to restore the face you managed to deform.

When the sutures are closed are closed. This mean that they no longer exist and if they do not exist you can't reopen them. Its like trying to reopen the sutures on your femur. You can't because the femur has no sutures exactly as your palate after puberty.

 

You are completely incorrect, and it seems to be because you are only aware of decades old research rather than new developments in the field. I recently returned from a conference with 50+ researchers and practitioners who would happily dispute your post. Much of their new research and clinical cases are, as of yet, unpublished. And the medical industry moves very slow, as does academia. 

Understand that this is a (re)emerging field of science and medical practice - old conclusions are being overturned, so pointing back at old data and research isn't credible. 

It seems we have done an inadequate job giving our users access to the new research and information available.

You should all have a resource to which you can link new users who are unenlightened about new developments and research - we will add this to the list of things that we are working on in the new year

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Posted : 01/01/2019 10:35 am
Autokrator, Sceriff, Greensmoothies and 2 people liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa

Looks like this forum has become inundated with pessimists since I last stopped by. What happened? Any solutions? Currently feels hostile to even try to experiment which is what this place used to be all about.

Doesn't feel open minded here anymore. Might have to move on.

Have you seen this post from @sclera? This is why it's worthwhile sticking around:

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/has-anyone-seen-results/paged/3/#post-13737  

I've debated trying to curate some of the essential reading on the forum to help the uninitiated wade through the increased traffic, but I haven't found time. Maybe this is something we could crowdsource.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/20-20-vision-possible-when-moving-maxilla-forward/#post-11309

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Posted : 01/01/2019 3:51 pm
Francybe92
Active Member

Wait wait, I'm not completely incorrect. Maybe

Fernanda Angelieri,a Lucia H. S. Cevidanes,b Lorenzo Franchi,c Jo~ao R. Gonc¸alves,d Erika Benavides,e and James A. McNamara Jrf

Who published their work on 2013 (not so long ago) and on the American Journal of Orthodontics and Dentofacial Orthopedics are incorrect. I'm just reporting their studies.

Also

Evaluation of the rapid and slow maxillary expansion using cone-beam computed tomography: a randomized clinical trial by

Juliana da S. Pereira, 1 Helder B. Jacob, 2 Arno Locks, 3 Mauricio Brunetto, 4 and Gerson L. U. Ribeiro 5

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5484271/

From 2017 (less than 2 years ago) and published on Dental Press J Ortho May be incorrect, for sure not me.

If we choose to discard those studies because incompatible with our beliefs this is another story.

The 50+ researchers and practitioners don't have to dispute my post, but the studies above, and not with words, sensation, analogies but with other studies.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 4:44 pm
Francybe92
Active Member

I'm not pessimist, if I state that the earth is round and not flat, im just telling the truth, or to be more correct the truth that we all know so far (that although not absolute, can not be underestimated)

Saying that is impossible to reopen an ossifyed suture is not pessimism is just the truth.

Just 2 words about  the scam of Starecta

I thought it was correct to inform all the users that Moreno Conte is a scammer who stole Maurizio Formia's years of work on Postural Biomechanism OG.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.biomeccanismoposturale-og.social%2F2016%2F07%2F21%2Fla-bufala-di-starecta-e- la-rip-the-dishonest-moreno-Count-c% 2F

I thought also that a forum also based on body posture should know Maurizio Formia's work on Postural Biomechanism OG, his point of view on the correlation between mental health, posture and dental occlusion and not Starecta.

I pointed out that starecta is a scam to prevent other users from investing 200$ in a device and in a practice that does not work.

My intervention wanted to be constructive and not destructive

I'm sorry I was misunderstood.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 5:13 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Francybe92

Saying that is impossible to reopen an ossifyed suture is not pessimism is just the truth.

I think the dispute is not if a fused suture can be disarticulated, but when/if the intermaxillary suture and/or circummaxillary sutures fuse. To my knowledge these sutures generally remain visible even in skulls of advanced age, and contain ligamentous connective tissue called sharpey's fibers analogous to the periodontal ligament that allows for orthodontic movement of teeth throughout life. This is in contrast, for example, to the premaxillary suture, which all evidence I've seen confirms it ossifies relatively early in life and is generally not visible when adult skulls are examined. 

Posted by: Apollo

Dr. Mew has stated on the BTM forum that he believes the premaxillary suture fuses (  http://breakthematrix.createaforum.com/therapies/could-you-please-give-advice-to-a-doctor-trying-to-perfect-maxillary-protraction/msg568/#msg568 ), and I agree that most of the pictures of adult skulls I have seen online don't have a visible premaxillary suture (whereas the midpalatal suture and the transverse palatine suture remain visible). 

Posted by: Mike Mew

The premaxilla is an interesting question, we could discuss it for days but in all the adult skulls that I've seen it is fused as it says in the text books.

 

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Posted : 01/01/2019 5:48 pm
Ayla31
Trusted Member
Posted by: Francybe92

I thought also that a forum also based on body posture should know Maurizio Formia's work on Postural Biomechanism OG, his point of view on the correlation between mental health, posture and dental occlusion and not Starecta.

I pointed out that starecta is a scam to prevent other users from investing 200$ in a device and in a practice that does not work.

My intervention wanted to be constructive and not destructive

I'm sorry I was misunderstood.

I see, in that case maybe it would be better to make a new thread about that next time, since the person was asking for opinions on his pictures and not on that topic. That was a case discussion. Or maybe comment on the pictures and then raise your concern (But I still think it's better to share it separately).

Anyway, I think it's always to be useful to be open to the possibility of being wrong and learn. Flat earthers back them had to accept the idea that the earth was round and eventually not the center of the universe. Many things in science have changed and keep changing, because people can be wrong. Curiosity and openness are very important, too. That's why many people here are "experimenting", they want to look for themselves if something works or not. They know that what works for them doesn't necessarily for others, but they share it, because it may help someone else too.

And also see what's the purpose of a Website. If it is something you definitely don't agree with, then it makes more sense to look for something else. But if my memory doesn't fail, you stated that you do believe in Mewing as a prevention from getting worse. Then why don't stick to that common ground at first? If you disagree on something that's okay and valuable too, but I think it's better to "lower the tone" a bit.

Okay, I'm rambling now... Anyway its nice to see that your intention is to be constructive.

 

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Posted : 01/01/2019 5:55 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Francybe92

Just 2 words about  the scam of Starecta

I thought it was correct to inform all the users that Moreno Conte is a scammer who stole Maurizio Formia's years of work on Postural Biomechanism OG.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.biomeccanismoposturale-og.social%2F2016%2F07%2F21%2Fla-bufala-di-starecta-e- la-rip-the-dishonest-moreno-Count-c% 2F

I thought also that a forum also based on body posture should know Maurizio Formia's work on Postural Biomechanism OG, his point of view on the correlation between mental health, posture and dental occlusion and not Starecta.

I pointed out that starecta is a scam to prevent other users from investing 200$ in a device and in a practice that does not work.

My intervention wanted to be constructive and not destructive

I'm sorry I was misunderstood.

Many people here (myself included) have already voiced concerns about the starecta method. Some might have objected to your ad hominem language seeming to devalue that some people have genuinely reported improvements from this strategy despite its potential long-term pitfalls. Thanks for sharing the link! I'd just suggest trying harder to disagree without being disagreeable.

Posted by: PaperBag

A solution that a lot of articles mention is getting thick fillings on the low teeth to even the bite. Could this cause problems with the bite if facial asymmetry was eventually improved from mewing? I mean, if mewing fixed your bite naturally, but you already put fillings on one side, wouldn't new issues develop?

Yes, a lot of the sources referencing the Guzay Quadrant Theorem and Dental Distress Syndrome seem to be proponents of various kinds of splint therapy. @admin articulated the pitfalls of splint therapy in this post (  https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/biomehanical-dystonia-splints-pros-cons/#post-3282 ):

Posted by: TGW

I agree with philosophy that splint therapy attempts the restoring of a lever effect of the teeth to raise the skull up off the spine and allow it to decompress. I also agree with its use in helping correct asymmetry caused by the roll of the maxilla (but not the pitch or the yaw). I do not recommend splint therapy unless you are experiencing debilitating and deteriorating spinal problems.  

It's an effective band-aid on improper craniofacial development - it doesn't actually restore proper development, but it simulates correct development so that the head and spine posture move back to almost where they should be with proper development.

The issue being that this only survives as long as the splint is in - once you correct with the splint, you need it for life. At best, the posture/spine will begin to collapse as soon as the splint is absent.

Note: The splint WILL change the position of the teeth and bite - once this occurs, you're always going to need the splint (or braces to move the bite back to where the teeth touch properly again). As you notice in the seller websites, there is no end of therapy for the splint.

At worst, the splint shift the teeth and mandible in such a way that they are now in an even worse growth pattern. That is to say, the mandible and upper jaw get further distorted, but in such a way that that the spine is allowed to straighten out. 

In summation: For correcting asymmetry from roll of the maxilla (and subsequent issues in the spine) a splint can be a good therapy. But for all issues related to pitch, yaw, and growth of the jaw/maxilla/skull the splint is merely a device for compensation - not a cure. At best it will relieve symptoms in the spine, but it also has the potential to further cause deterioration in the development of the maxilla and jaw. 

Good examples are those people who have used the splints, like Starecta rectifier, showing that their back has straightened out: The spine is fixed, but the skulls/faces are still improperly developed, and sometimes worse than when they started. And now that the spine has been trained into proper position while the skull is improperly developed, they may have shut the door on being able to correct their skull without being forced to let their spine collapse again. 

Using the splint could be sacrificing a chance at correcting the craniofacial development for the tradeoff of allowing the spine to decompress.  

One potential caveat would be the use of "bite build ups" on kid's deciduous teeth. I've read several sources suggesting that this can help improve arch width and facial form in growing kids and that permanent teeth when they come in will tend to erupt to the level of the structural fillings. For adults, I think we need to find alternative ways to stimulate rotation of the maxilla into a healthy orientation.

 

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Posted : 01/01/2019 6:00 pm
Francybe92
Active Member

I think the dispute is not if a fused suture can be disarticulated, but when/if the intermaxillary suture and/or circummaxillary sutures fuse. To my knowledge these sutures generally remain visible even in skulls of advanced age, and contain ligamentous connective tissue called sharpey's fibers analogous to the periodontal ligament that allows for orthodontic movement of teeth throughout life. This is in contrast, for example, to the premaxillary suture, which all evidence I've seen confirms it ossifies relatively early in life and is generally not visible when adult skulls are examined. 

Yes, the dispute is not if a fused suture can be disarticulated or not, the dispute is if it is possible to widen the palate with your thumbs.

Seems that no one has read the article:

“Based our proposed staging methodology, we speculate
that at stages A and B a conventional RME approach
would have less resistant forces and probably (not eve sure) more skeletal
effects than at stage C, when there are many initial
ossification areas along the midpalatal suture. These
areas of initial ossification have been described previously
by Melsen19 as “bony islands” throughout the
midpalatal suture. Initial diagnosis of stage C might
indicate that the timing of RME is critical because the
start of fusion of the palatine portion of the suture could
be imminent. Patients in stages D and E might be better
treated by surgically assisted RME because fusion of the
midpalatal suture already has occurred partially or
totally, hampering the RME forces from opening the
suture.”

This method might provide reliable parameters for the clinical decision between conventional and surgicallyassisted RME for adolescent and young adult patients

Stage A was noted in the early childhood period from 5 to almost 11 years of age, except for one 13-year-old boy. Stage B was present mainly up to 13 years of age, with 6 of 32 subjects (23% of boys, 15.7% of girls) from 14 to 18 years of age. Stage C was observed mainly from 11 to 18 years of age. However, two 10-year-old girls (8.3% of girls) and 4 of 32 adults (15.7% of girls, 7.7% of boys) were in stage C. No subject from 5 to almost 11 years of age had fusion of the midpalatal suture. From 11 to almost 14 years of age, 6 of 24 girls (25%) had fusion of the midpalatal suture in palatine (stage D) or maxillary (stage E) bone. For subjects between 14 and 18 years of age, 11 of 19 girls (57.9%) had fusion of the midpalatal suture in palatine (stage D) or maxillary (stage E) bone; only 3 boys (23%) were in stage D.

This variability also was observed in adults, who most frequently had fusion of the midpalatal suture (stagesD and E), 4 subjects (12.5%) had no fused suture in stage C, and 1 subject (3.1%) was in stage B.

If you are in stage D or E it's almost imposible to get skeletal expansion without surgery or withiout using proper appliance like RME. This is not my opinion, this is what the articles state.

With your tongue or with a SME expansion device you will not be able to achive any skeletal changes as reported in the article below

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5484271/

Again, this is not my opinion or beliefs, those are just facts reported and pubblished by reserchers

My opinion, based on the articles above, is that you can't disarticulate your maxillary suture with your thumbs since as an adult you are probably in either the stage D or E and for this two stages a surgical intervention plus an RME appliance is needed in order to achieve skeletal result.

If you can't disarticulte you maxillary suture and  expand your maxilla, for sure you will not be able to effect the other circummaxillary sutures. And this is again my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted : 01/01/2019 7:06 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Francybe92

My opinion, based on the articles above, is that you can't disarticulate your maxillary suture with your thumbs since as an adult you are probably in either the stage D or E and for this two stages a surgical intervention plus an RME appliance is needed in order to achieve skeletal result.

If you can't disarticulte you maxillary suture and  expand your maxilla, for sure you will not be able to effect the other circummaxillary sutures. And this is again my opinion.

Here's a nice figure and excerpt about the stages from the first article you referenced. It's worth noting that these examinations are based on Cone Beam CT imaging rather than gross examination of skulls from cadavers of various ages. So when they say no suture is visible, they mean on the image not to the naked eye.

An external file that holds a picture, illustration, etc.
Object name is nihms611122f4.jpg

The ossification process in the midpalatal suture starts with bone spicules from suture margins along with “islands” (ie, masses of acellular tissue and inconsistently calcified tissue) in the middle of the sutural gap. The formation of spicules occurs in many places along the suture, with the number of spicules increasing with maturation and forming many scalloped areas that are close to each other and separated in some areas by connective tissue. Concomitantly, interdigitation increases; then fusion occurs earlier in the posterior area of the suture, with progression of ossification taking place from posterior to anterior, with resorption of cortical bone in the sutural ends and formation of cancellous bone.

The start and the advance of fusion of the midpalatal suture vary greatly with age and sex. Persson and Thilander observed fusion of the midpalatal suture in subjects ranging from 15 to 19 years old. On the other hand, patients at ages 27, 32, 54, and even 71 years have been reported to have no signs of fusion of this suture. Such findings indicate that variability in the developmental stages of fusion of the midpalatal suture is not related directly to chronologic age, particularly in young adults.

If the article you're referencing says that rarely people as old as 71 years have been observed to have no fusion of the midpalatal suture, why would we discourage young adults from experimenting? Beyond that, even people who have some ossification of the suture clearly still achieve disarticulation through methods like MARPE, and probably even with removable expanders (at a fast enough rate, according to clinicians like Dr. Mew). So whose to say that manual forces might not assist in this process? Allixa is using his thumbs to apply higher intermittent forces and pairing that with consistent lower forces from a removable expander. I see no reason to doubt the report of his experience, which describes separation down the midline between the lobes of his torus palatinus. Maybe he's mistaken, but I don't think we can point to anything in these articles to tell him that his experience is untrue. Personally, I've described before how I believe that all or the vast majority of my palate expansion with a removable acrylic expander occurred through bone remodeling rather than suture separation, since I got no midline diastema, and my torus palatinus got no wider, but the areas beside the torus got less vaulted. The reports in this thread, and other methods like the nasopharyngeal manipulation techniques and the vibration therapy that I've posted about in other threads make me hope that I might still be able to overcome the resistance and achieve some mobilization of my midpalatal suture, but I believe (at least in my case) it's significantly more likely than not that this is impossible without surgery or MARPE. I'm still going to keep trying.

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Posted : 01/01/2019 9:52 pm
Autokrator and Ayla31 liked
Francybe92
Active Member
Posted by: Apollo

Here's a nice figure and excerpt about the stages from the first article you referenced. It's worth noting that these examinations are based on Cone Beam CT imaging rather than gross examination of skulls from cadavers of various ages. So when they say no suture is visible, they mean on the image not to the naked eye.

Yes, this is also why we use CT scans, to avoid dissecting people and exhuming corpses

CT scans are a pretty good representation of the reality, they are very hard to interpret, this is why we have doctors. In particular, all the scan in the article was analyzed by six different doctors. Six doctors, not some random dudes who sometimes write on a forum. I think we should give them some respect and credibility.

The ossification process in the midpalatal suture starts with bone spicules from suture margins along with “islands” (ie, masses of acellular tissue and inconsistently calcified tissue) in the middle of the sutural gap. The formation of spicules occurs in many places along the suture, with the number of spicules increasing with maturation and forming many scalloped areas that are close to each other and separated in some areas by connective tissue. Concomitantly, interdigitation increases; then fusion occurs earlier in the posterior area of the suture, with progression of ossification taking place from posterior to anterior, with resorption of cortical bone in the sutural ends and formation of cancellous bone.

The start and the advance of fusion of the midpalatal suture vary greatly with age and sex. Persson and Thilander observed fusion of the midpalatal suture in subjects ranging from 15 to 19 years old. On the other hand, patients at ages 27, 32, 54, and even 71 years have been reported to have no signs of fusion of this suture. Such findings indicate that variability in the developmental stages of fusion of the midpalatal suture is not related directly to chronologic age, particularly in young adults.

If the article you're referencing says that rarely people as old as 71 years have been observed to have no fusion of the midpalatal suture, why would we discourage young adults from experimenting? Beyond that, even people who have some ossification of the suture clearly still achieve disarticulation through methods like MARPE, and probably even with removable expanders (at a fast enough rate, according to clinicians like Dr. Mew). So whose to say that manual forces might not assist in this process? Allixa is using his thumbs to apply higher intermittent forces and pairing that with consistent lower forces from a removable expander. I see no reason to doubt the report of his experience, which describes separation down the midline between the lobes of his torus palatinus. Maybe he's mistaken, but I don't think we can point to anything in these articles to tell him that his experience is untrue. Personally, I've described before how I believe that all or the vast majority of my palate expansion with a removable acrylic expander occurred through bone remodeling rather than suture separation, since I got no midline diastema, and my torus palatinus got no wider, but the areas beside the torus got less vaulted. The reports in this thread, and other methods like the nasopharyngeal manipulation techniques and the vibration therapy that I've posted about in other threads make me hope that I might still be able to overcome the resistance and achieve some mobilization of my midpalatal suture, but I believe (at least in my case) it's significantly more likely than not that this is impossible without surgery or MARPE. I'm still going to keep trying.

I gave you the article, what you wanna do with it and how you wanna interpret it is up to you and your intelligence. I can not help you with this.

If all you see is that there are cases in which sutures were still found opened at 70yo well ... honestly, I do not know what to say.

I can only encourage you to read again both articles with a more objective approach.

I'm a bit tired of this discussion, so I leave you the last word.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 01/01/2019 11:56 pm
mewchew
New Member

Is the CT scan the only way to tell if the sutures are fused in living people?

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Posted : 02/01/2019 1:20 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: mewchew

Is the CT scan the only way to tell if the sutures are fused in living people?

I just mentioned that the study visualized the midpalatal suture with computed tomography to make a contrast to my previous post where I mentioned that the midpalatal and transverse palatal suture are typically still visible on adult skulls whereas the "incisive" or premaxillary suture is often totally fused and not visible. So even when the midpalatal suture reaches advanced stages of ossification and the article says it can't be visualized, I suspect it still isn't as fused as the premaxillary suture becomes, and would be seen on gross examination. This is supported by the fact that methods like MARPE regularly disarticulate the midpalatal suture in adults, whereas FAGGA relies on bone remodeling rather than separation of the premaxillary suture for sagittal expansion. 

Related image

The article suggests that other radiographic techniques are less reliable than CT for visualizing the midpalatal suture.

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Posted : 02/01/2019 4:24 pm
Ayla31 liked
elevee
Trusted Member
Posted by: Progress

Found it:  http://www.debugyourhealth.com/orthodontics-and-cranial-structure/

I know this is an old thread, but wow, thank you. The whole thread is fascinating and useful, but what caught me most is how in the demonstration photos, the little girl is clearly enjoying her weird little internal massage. And if it's pleasurable to a kid, I think it's likely to be healthy!

My daughter is 8, just about the same as the author's girl, and she already has dental crowding that's delaying her baby teeth coming out. She's supposed to have a few baby teeth pulled to make room for the adult ones to descend, and then likely to have an expander in a couple of years. We're going to try this, in addition to me working on my own. This is very exciting. Any recent updates on progress in here?

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Posted : 23/02/2019 6:56 am
Sceriff
Eminent Member

Is someone continuing with this method? 

@Krollic Did you get any more results? 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2019 11:47 pm
buria
Active Member

When you thumb pulling to widen your palate, does the jaw/lower teeth follow that width?

when you do thumb pulling forward where do you place your thumb? In the rigged area of the palate?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/04/2019 1:40 pm
elevee
Trusted Member

I  started working at this actively a week ago, after discovering that with my uneven bite chewing hard gum was just making it worse. Here's what I'm doing:

 

On the maxilla,  place two thumbs firmly on the soft palate as far back as possible, massaging in firm circles outward and forward, then apply firm traction behind the edge of the hard palate, forward and sideways. If your gag reflex is strong you might not be able to do that. 

I have impacted wisdom teeth so I'm giving firm forward-moving circles and traction to the gums behind my molars--it might not move things forward enough for them to erupt, but maybe it might. Then move to the hard palate, place the flat of the thumbs firmly and do the same. Basically this is the same method used by the mama massaging her kids' mouth in one of the links above, but very, very firmly, finishing with a slow count to ten of straight pulling. Move the thumbs forward one place (think of placing thumbprints in a line, edges touching) and repeat, giving more attention to narrow areas, always moving your little massaging circles outward and forward. When I reach the front I do it straight forward. 

I'm doing the same on the lower jaw, getting two fingers well inside the mandible past the gumline and never leaning on teeth. It might not work but I don't know of a good reason not to try, provided I'm not putting stress on the joints. I have a very (very) short mandible, so I'm hoping there might be some change and no harm. 

At each position I do a slow count of 10 massaging, and again just pulling. Altogether it takes a couple of minutes, and I'm doing it probably 10-12 times a day. I can't say if it will do anything, or not, but I will keep records and check back.

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Posted : 24/04/2019 7:38 pm
Sceriff and Zag liked
buria
Active Member

@elevee If I put my thumbs in my soft palate I will literally throw up.
Where is the edge of the hard palate?

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Posted : 26/04/2019 11:10 am
elevee
Trusted Member

The gag reflex can be desensitized with exposure over time. If yours is very sensitive you won't be able to get to the back edge of the hard palate at first either. Just place the flats of the thumbs on the roof of your mouth as far back as you can without actually puking and start working forward from there. If you're up for continuing the challenge, try to push your gag limit a little each time. As far as I can tell, getting pressure on the soft palate is pretty important, whether with the tongue or by hand.

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Posted : 26/04/2019 3:00 pm
dopafacker
Eminent Member
Posted by: Allixa

This technique is a work in progress. Please read the thread before starting anything.

I have recently stumbled upon an idea that comes from a different community who are trying things similar to here, but not involving the skull. One of the posters there came up with the idea that instead of putting pressure on the body all day long using a device in order to create growth, to instead use the hands to manipulate the area for a few minutes at a time once every hour. His reasoning was that this constant new stimulation and periodic reminder to the body to change would induce mitosis of the cells more powerfully and lead to quicker growth than simply leaving a device in place that the body could adapt to. This idea ended up catching on so much and working so well that it completely took over the entire community and everyone started doing it with good results.

After reading about the idea more and seeing the parallels to what we are doing here, I decided that I wanted to see if it would work on the skull too. Here's the inventor giving a breakdown of the main idea (edited by me to line up with our purposes here):

Your hands are simply the best facepulling device. Using them you can facepull whenever you have the time and privacy to do it. And if you follow my method which is a 1-2 minute pulling session every hour, your sutures and skull will grow more quickly than if you just wear devices. Plus your skull gets a chance to rest between facepulling sessions.

My routine went like this: I would facepull for 1-2 minutes at the top of every hour using gentle pressure that felt good until my sutures felt like they had separated some. I did this all day long. This method works well because you stress the sutures for 1-2 minutes, and then let them rest for an hour before the next time you facepull.

I've just barely started using this method to try and create expansion and not forward growth like most people use facepulling for, but what I can say so far is this: With a starting intermolar width of 31.8mm measured using a digital caliper, after I spent an entire day chewing gum, I gained no expansion at all. After I spent an entire day doing super hard mewing, I gained no expansion at all. But after I spent an entire day using my thumbs to do gentle expansion of the palate for 2 minutes at a time every hour, my intermolar width changed from 31.88mm to 32.04mm and I was able to retain this expansion overnight by using an expander that wasn't even applying much pressure. I know it's not much but that was just after one day of doing the gentle pulling and I am one hundred percent positive that my measurements were accurate.

This idea is very experimental, and I can't say anything for sure, but if it ends up working then I think that it could become one of the main ways for adults to adjust and grow the skull. If it ends up being legitimate then it can probably be used for all sorts of things like moving the maxilla forward and more. I plan to begin using it consistently very soon in order to gain expansion of my palate and to try and center my midline as well.

Be warned that I have no clue if this idea will work, if it will create good or bad changes, or even if it is safe or not. Following from that, if you decide to try this out on yourself, you are doing so at your own risk. I have read way too many stories of people ruining their faces, their teeth, their jaw joints, and their bites through bad facepulling to present this idea without a disclaimer. You should probably only attempt this if you really know what you are doing and if you aren't doing things out of desperation. Remember that the pulling should be gentle. Also realize that proper Mewing and chewing are all most people will need. With that said, I am going to try it on myself and see what happens.

I've created this thread as a way to share this idea, as a place to post my own results, and as a place to collect the results of anyone else who wants to try it out.

Similar Ideas:

@progress has shared an interesting link where someone else talks about doing something very similar:

http://www.debugyourhealth.com/orthodontics-and-cranial-structure/

https://archive.fo/C2ZZl

Scroll down to the section called "Home Osteopathic Exercises to Widen the Palate" near the bottom of the page to read about it.

Testimonials:

I will collect some testimonials from around the forum here. I recommend reading the linked threads as you get to see a more complete view of what people experience with the technique, both good and bad.

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/frequent-low-tension-facepulling-a-potentially-effective-new-technique-for-adjusting-the-skull-by-hand/#post-3466

Posted by: Krollic

I started at around 40mm imw about 4 months ago, except at the ripe old age of 23 and I was struggling to make results despite tongue posture being rather easy to maintain throughout the waking day. I only started to get rapid results when I began introducing exercises and techniques such as;

Thumb pulling - A manual expansion technique that involves pressing firmly on the inner-side of your teeth, gums and palate outwards and forwards to stimulate growth. Every 1 to 1.5 hours I do it for about 1 or 2 minutes at a time from when I wake to the moment before I go to bed. It has rapidly increased my gains. I'm now at about 45mm IMW in the past couple of months and I accredit it mainly to this technique. It's like an expansion device except is it free and pretty easy to do. I think it is low risk also. The downsides of it is that it requires vigilance and dedication and isn't exactly fun.

I would suggest this technique for intermediate mewers once they have a solid understanding of oral functions.

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/options-for-expansion/#post-4692

Posted by: Krollic

Yep, it's accelerated my results substantially. Every hour to 1.5 hour or so I push outwards and forward on the inner side of my teeth, then gums. then palate for about 2 minutes at a time with a very firm force. I feel/hear sutures pop when I do this.

Really effective for raising Inter molar width imo

so far i've gained 2mm of IMW in the past 2 weeks. a tiny amount of it may be due to slight tipping. it has made tongue posture substantially easier

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/what-is-everything-that-can-be-done-according-to-all-what-we-know-so-far/#post-4813

Posted by: Jimbobape

Anyways the past couple months I discovered that if I yank on my maxilla hard enough with my thumbs the sutures way back give way so I was able to improve my angle a lot with that. But unfortunately, my cheekbones didn't really follow suit so only my under-nose support, lips and gonial angle improved really. 

Quick disclaimer My hand strength is immense, I have not met a person able to do this yet besides me.  

Another thing I discovered was that with my thumbs in mouth palate expansion method (it's exactly as it sounds), if I did a slow 60-120 second hold of lower intensity, I would legitimately feel my palate split down the middle. Very intense and painful feeling, feels like hot searing pain down the back - I can momentarily gain about 3mm or more when I do this. My face literally splits apart when I do this in the mirror ahaha it's crazy. If I had a removable palate expander I could honestly gain a centimeter of width in a week no exaggeration.

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/18m-deathmewing-6000-cals-day-raw-milk-raw-meat-raw-egg-diet-day-2-report-2/#post-9444

Posted by: Euclid

I'm 33 and began mewing back on-off since March, I would say with certainty that my mewing progress was very minor, and I attribute that to poor posture and form. Around June, I then decided to switch up and supplement it with thumb-based face pulling and even belt pulling - I believe the former concept was first introduced by Keengo? In my case I didn't expect much, but was I surprised to see the result. First I measured my inter-molar dental width which using dental calipers I purchased on Amazon, initial reading were 34.8mm - 3 weeks into routing face pulling and the occasional mewing and this jumped up to close to 37mm, and it definitely showed physically (definitely not placebo).

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling-my-experience/#post-12087

I still dont get it can someone explain me how to do it correctly?

 

Quantcast

 
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Posted : 27/05/2019 7:03 am
elevee
Trusted Member

Put your two fists together in front of your face, and stick out your thumbs. They will be pointing toward your mouth. Put them in. Place the flats of your thumbs on your palate. Press. 

 

Don't lean on your teeth.

 

We don't know for sure if straight up, or up-and-forward, or with an outward direction is best, and everyone's palate is different. Do what feels right. Go slow, notice your body sensations, and don't engage in anything that seems like it might damage you. Shoot for frequency rather than almighty pulling on the inside of your head.

 

And dude, you don't need to quote an entire thread in your post to ask your question. It makes it really hard for future readers to find relevant info.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 27/05/2019 7:38 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

So, I tried thumb-pulling for the first time. My intermolar width increased instantly. I even got scared, I stopped

 
ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/05/2019 3:57 am
elevee
Trusted Member

Awesome, now you know it can work! Go slow and easy, and shoot for "frequent low tension". Someone noted that it's necessary to have adequate tongue strength to retain any changes, so you might not need to do this very often at all. Let us know how it goes.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/05/2019 10:17 am
TransportationYuppie
Active Member

I have been having success with infrequent but relatively hard thumb pulling for widening the palate and using tongue posture plus a tad of hard mewing to keep changes from reverting.

It's too early for me to have settled into a routine, but I'm thinking of 2-3 short pulling sessions a day for 2-3 consecutive days a week, and having the rest of the time as recovery. I do experience fatigue during the pulling phase, which I read as my body telling me that damage is being done, and I must be careful and slow to allow proper healing and acclimatisation. I also experience ringing in my ears when I have been pulling.

Question: How are people managing to apply a forwards force to the maxilla with the thumbs on the palate? My thumbs slip right off. How do you get a purchase?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 7:09 am
Arkey
Active Member

Having properly tried this for a day, I feel a little shocked at how effective it seems to be.

Following the advice of this board, doing approximately hourly sessions, I found my tongue was able to sit against the roof of my mouth in a way it hadn't been before. It made me realise that when one has enough room on the palate, mewing becomes almost effortless. You swallow, and your tongue happily sits in the correct position with little thought.

As far as I could tell, my palate was already in the high 30mms, so perhaps an extra mm of width could have allowed my tongue the space it needed to sit comfortably.

This has also made me feel as though the definite aim for beginner mewers should be to widen their palate so the tongue can sit up there comfortably, that and just generally strengthening their tongue and jaw muscles.

It reminds me that both @Achilles1 and Jamo have dabbled in 'pulling' to a degree before they started making real progress with their mewing. Achilles iirc did some thumb-pulling, and mimicked face-pulling through eating and chewing on raw meat, that and he already have a high imw. Jamo actually dabbled in face-pulling.

It is starting to seem apparent to me that it is essential to kick-start the growth progress of the palate through the use of our thumbs, and also that the body wants this! My theory is that the clicks happen when you are pulling in an area that requires growth, and are absent when you are pulling on something that doesn't need growth, or doesn't want it yet - like Mike Mew's paper bag analogy.

Of course, it may very likely be too soon to draw any conclusions from my experience. But if my thoughts prove true, blimey!

- Mewing for 6+ months
- IMW: 35mm (no expansion)
- Sleep on the floor without a pillow
- Tape mouth at night
- Continue to emphasise chin-tuck/occipital drive for extended periods
- Chew Mastic Tears for 1 hour every other day

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 2:13 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

So..I tried the technique last night once (not the first time, but I haven't made it into a habit) and I experience this:

  • my palate instantly widens, but it's not lasting, because 1hr later or in the morning, it's back to the original state
ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/07/2019 5:57 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing. I'm typing on my iPad 2 now and the camera sucks, I can take a picture later and hopefully I can get some feedback on this monkey face thing. My thinking is that some chewing will help with this as I think monkey face basically consists of prominent nasal labial folds, mandible not forward grown enough and a long philtrum. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

My personal method is I do this every hour (except during sleep) while standing and in a Mackenzie chin tuck. I don't go for the full 2 minutes, rather I go until I don't feel any loosening of suture for 10 seconds, which takes anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute and a half. This method is excellent for suture loosening, have not encountered a superior method thus far.

I believe in this method and will continue, thanks again Allixa!

Are you saying this facepull method gave you monkey face or that it is something you have struggled with all along ?

It's something I've had on and off with mewing. I think it has to do with forward growth of the maxilla when expanding, but then the mandible lags behind a bit for some time, then catches up and things return to normal. Prominent nasal labial folds and a longer philtrum complete the "look". It's been described as an awkward phase that eventually passes. I'm seeing evidence that it's passing.

I'll describe what I was seeing in the mirror if it makes sense. On some days, I'd look at my profile and my upper lip would be jutted forward 1-2mm more than my lower lip, couple days thereafter they would meet again. No change in my bite as far as I can tell.

This is a quick method of expansion, I was shocked. But it makes sense considering how much suture separation occurs (quite a lot). 

Don't we need like 10kg of force being applied to the sutures over a long period of time to separate them? And even then with stuff like marpe, there's a lot of failed cases.. If you separated your sutures you'd get a diastema.. Facepulling is something I don't really get into and I don't wanna sound cocky or whatever but.. 

Nasolabial folds being more prominent or not is a direct cause of body and especially cervical posture shifts. Your bite may not shift when you move your head but it wants to and the forces being applied throughout the arches do shift and your soft tissue moves depending on the muscles you activate more or less.

When you mew more and harder, ur cervical posture tends to shift to a better position  because you activate ur strap muscles, push the hyiod up, palatoglossus etc a lot more and that pushes the soft tissue on ur face forward, making the folds more prominent.

It's not that your maxilla rotated or moved forward in 1 day and now you have less prominent folds or whatever. Your bone just doesn't move like that. Just think about it logically.. More prominent folds means ur maxilla is more retracted, yes mandible has a role on how the folds look but by definition ur maxillary size determines your nasolabial folds prominence.

  If by ur logic the changes you noticed in the mirror were bone movement you'd have cured urself and seen great results in a matter of weeks. 

You even said your bite doesn't shift. If it doesn't shift what else can it be other than soft tissue movement?

I just realized this is a 2018 post.. God. Whatever I'm gon leave it here for good measure

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/07/2019 3:05 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

Prominent Nasolabial Folds are a good sign you re mewing correctly tho. Means your pushing ur occiput back and upwards.

That alone puts the tongue pressure at the back of the palate going up and sideways and the tip forwards and up.

Which is what gives the prominent nasolabial fold 'monkey' look. Means your putting pressure where you're lacking the most. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/07/2019 3:15 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Roflcopters
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing. I'm typing on my iPad 2 now and the camera sucks, I can take a picture later and hopefully I can get some feedback on this monkey face thing. My thinking is that some chewing will help with this as I think monkey face basically consists of prominent nasal labial folds, mandible not forward grown enough and a long philtrum. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

My personal method is I do this every hour (except during sleep) while standing and in a Mackenzie chin tuck. I don't go for the full 2 minutes, rather I go until I don't feel any loosening of suture for 10 seconds, which takes anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute and a half. This method is excellent for suture loosening, have not encountered a superior method thus far.

I believe in this method and will continue, thanks again Allixa!

Are you saying this facepull method gave you monkey face or that it is something you have struggled with all along ?

It's something I've had on and off with mewing. I think it has to do with forward growth of the maxilla when expanding, but then the mandible lags behind a bit for some time, then catches up and things return to normal. Prominent nasal labial folds and a longer philtrum complete the "look". It's been described as an awkward phase that eventually passes. I'm seeing evidence that it's passing.

I'll describe what I was seeing in the mirror if it makes sense. On some days, I'd look at my profile and my upper lip would be jutted forward 1-2mm more than my lower lip, couple days thereafter they would meet again. No change in my bite as far as I can tell.

This is a quick method of expansion, I was shocked. But it makes sense considering how much suture separation occurs (quite a lot). 

Don't we need like 10kg of force being applied to the sutures over a long period of time to separate them? And even then with stuff like marpe, there's a lot of failed cases.. If you separated your sutures you'd get a diastema.. Facepulling is something I don't really get into and I don't wanna sound cocky or whatever but.. 

Nasolabial folds being more prominent or not is a direct cause of body and especially cervical posture shifts. Your bite may not shift when you move your head but it wants to and the forces being applied throughout the arches do shift and your soft tissue moves depending on the muscles you activate more or less.

When you mew more and harder, ur cervical posture tends to shift to a better position  because you activate ur strap muscles, push the hyiod up, palatoglossus etc a lot more and that pushes the soft tissue on ur face forward, making the folds more prominent.

It's not that your maxilla rotated or moved forward in 1 day and now you have less prominent folds or whatever. Your bone just doesn't move like that. Just think about it logically.. More prominent folds means ur maxilla is more retracted, yes mandible has a role on how the folds look but by definition ur maxillary size determines your nasolabial folds prominence.

  If by ur logic the changes you noticed in the mirror were bone movement you'd have cured urself and seen great results in a matter of weeks. 

You even said your bite doesn't shift. If it doesn't shift what else can it be other than soft tissue movement?

I just realized this is a 2018 post.. God. Whatever I'm gon leave it here for good measure

Diastema may not be a good metric for me since I've had one on and off ever since the 3rd week of beginning mewing 7 years ago. I guess it's possible I have been separating the midline suture to some degree over the years. The diastema did worsen at that time, though, and still remains (but improved) despite not using this method much at all in the past year. After this posting I eventually noticed my overjet went from ~4mm to ~1-2mm, a bit too close for comfort so I haven't been able to continue much for fear of developing an edge to edge bite. I think my CFD is cured judging by my mew indicator line and what I observe in the mirror.

 

eta: @Mangas77 these are questions better suited to a thread dedicated to my own progress and results which I intend to create at some point. But I will try to briefly describe what's happened over the years. I had the sort of profile where the chin kind of melts in to the neck, along with forward head posture, long philtrum and sclera show being the main offending issues to my mind. After 3 years of mewing I got 1.5mm of expansion and didn't see much change until 5 years mewing (plus more expansion) when new bone had been laid down (determined by touch through the years) and it was around this time where I was first exposed to the method that drops the palate down in the back which significantly made mewing easier. The earlier posts in this thread were written when I first tried thumb pulling as I entered my 6th year of mewing. In addition to those activities, I also do a daily massage called Tanaka which seems to prevent wrinkles, help drain lymph and aide in the development of soft tissue. Followed by myofascial release to relax muscles (which has been said to help the cranial bones move). I also do some exercises which help my posture, airway etc.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/07/2019 5:24 pm
Mangas77 liked
Mangas77
Eminent Member

@Greensmoothies, as your "CFD is cured", how much would you say your face has changed since you started mewing ? Have you been only mewing and facepulling ?

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Posted : 06/07/2019 9:51 pm
dopafacker
Eminent Member

should i need to wear a retainer? Do the gains are permanent and not relapsable like braces?

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Posted : 12/07/2019 12:12 pm
dopafacker
Eminent Member

how if we add progresive overload concept? 

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Posted : 12/07/2019 12:32 pm
JawExperiments
New Member

how if we add progresive overload concept? 

Do you mean pulling harder and harder, or changing the retainer?
I'm also curious how hard do you guys pull? Almost all posters in this thread mention that they pull until they feel the sutures separate. I've never experienced this feeling, the closest is a couple pops near the TMJ or zygomatic bone. Some days I get no such pops other  days 4-5 of them.
I've been trying out this method using just mewing as I don't have a retainer. So far no spectacular visual changes and the imw has not been changed noticeably (no more than half a mm if at all). However, breathing has become much easier for me. I sued to use a saline solution every morning just to breathe "normally" but I haven't used it since I started.
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Posted : 19/07/2019 9:41 am
bidoumaster
New Member

How do I go about facepulling whilst having a canted arch? My face is slightly asymmetrical and one side of my palate is higher than the other, how do I go about doing this safely?

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Posted : 26/07/2019 3:29 pm
entelechy
Trusted Member

Very interesting thread---  I have tried face pulling for a month now, and definitely feel more space for my tongue.   I have two questions:  1)  how do we know this is not movement of teeth roots?   After all those roots go pretty high up in the alvealor.   2)  the clicks I hear are in the NECK.    I have them during every session.   It feels really good, like tension release.  Has anyone had them--or can anyone explain this?     3)  Could it also be that the face pulling is encouraging bone to grow in the alvealor ridge?

Thanks!

entelechy

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Posted : 27/07/2019 11:46 pm
printfactory
Eminent Member

I am wondering if the eating habits of our ancestors contributed to their forward facial growth in a way face pulling might do today. I am imagining them trying to eat some hard and dried meat that´s maybe still attached to the bone. Would they bite into it and then pull it away from their face to help separate it from the bone? Done a few times a day those forces could significantly contribute to facial development I guess.

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Posted : 18/08/2019 4:02 pm
deama
New Member

I've been thumb pulling for about 3 minutes every hour (try to every hour, sometimes I miss) per day for the last 3-4 weeks, but just took some pictures to compare, no difference whatsoever...

I'm very depressed about this now, my jaw looks so recessed and everything I try yields no results. I've been thumb pulling very hard now that my thumb/hand shakes when I try to do it now so I have to take a break for a bit to recover. Anyone got any ideas? My routine is to use one thumb (cause two doesn't fit) and push at the top/forward, then push at the right side, push top/forward, then left side, rinse and repeat till I hit around 3 minutes; I don't touch the teeth but the squishy part above them. Then the next time I use my left hand thumb and alternate between left/right hand because otherwise my thumb would get too tired; well, now they're both getting tired too quickly.

I'm gonna try to continue with this after a couple weeks break, maybe I just need to do it for much longer? Anyway, I haven't felt or heard any popping or any movement like some of you others, am I doing something wrong or are you guys weight lifters or something?

Oh and also, I've been mewing while thumb pulling and I started mewing abou 5 months ago.

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Posted : 27/10/2019 7:39 am
printfactory
Eminent Member

Has anyone tried this method and has gotten bad results? Why isn´t this getting more attention, it seems like quite a few people have had amazing results with this according the testimonials.

 
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Posted : 20/12/2019 5:03 am
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@printfactory

 

A few weeks ago I did thumb pulling on the sides of the pallet near the first and second molars and after pulling for about 5 minutes my gums became inflamed and the area where I was pulling felt strange afterwards. It hasn’t put me off however its best to be careful. What I did find though is that my mid palettal suture felt an small ache on it so perhaps thumb pulling was affecting it. 

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Posted : 20/12/2019 6:02 am
printfactory
Eminent Member

@harrykanemaxilla 

have you followed up on it? It seems like it is always the same story, people try it a few times and say it seems to be effective and then don´t continue doing it. So I am wondering if there were any negative side effects.

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Posted : 20/12/2019 6:06 am
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@printfactory

I was thinking about thumb pulling yesterday when I was watching Ronald Ead’s MSE videos. I want to do it however I have a permanent fixed retainer stuck behind the 6 front teeth of the maxilla so this may effect results. I am going to try it again regardless of the retainer and see what happens.

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Posted : 20/12/2019 6:11 am
printfactory
Eminent Member

@harrykanemaxilla 

I have a fixed retainer as well but I hope it won´t affect results too much. I think I will try it as well for a few weeks next year, unless someone can give me a good reason why I shouldn´t. 

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Posted : 20/12/2019 6:50 am
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@printfactory

Today I am going to start thumb pulling. For 2 minutes of every hour I am awake I am going to pull the sides of the pallet as hard as I can. I will update with photos aswell in a month.

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Posted : 20/12/2019 7:38 am
printfactory
Eminent Member

@harrykanemaxilla Cool, looking forward to your experience. I will try to do it in January and post an update at the end of the month.

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Posted : 20/12/2019 8:07 am
Vyr9
 Vyr9
New Member

Does anyone else get the bad breath smell when they massage the soft part of the palate?

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Posted : 04/04/2020 6:24 am
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