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Frequent low tension facepulling: A potentially effective new technique for adjusting the skull by hand  

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Allixa
Estimable Member

This technique is a work in progress. Please read the thread before starting anything.

I have recently stumbled upon an idea that comes from a different community who are trying things similar to here, but not involving the skull. One of the posters there came up with the idea that instead of putting pressure on the body all day long using a device in order to create growth, to instead use the hands to manipulate the area for a few minutes at a time once every hour. His reasoning was that this constant new stimulation and periodic reminder to the body to change would induce mitosis of the cells more powerfully and lead to quicker growth than simply leaving a device in place that the body could adapt to. This idea ended up catching on so much and working so well that it completely took over the entire community and everyone started doing it with good results.

After reading about the idea more and seeing the parallels to what we are doing here, I decided that I wanted to see if it would work on the skull too. Here's the inventor giving a breakdown of the main idea (edited by me to line up with our purposes here):

Your hands are simply the best facepulling device. Using them you can facepull whenever you have the time and privacy to do it. And if you follow my method which is a 1-2 minute pulling session every hour, your sutures and skull will grow more quickly than if you just wear devices. Plus your skull gets a chance to rest between facepulling sessions.

My routine went like this: I would facepull for 1-2 minutes at the top of every hour using gentle pressure that felt good until my sutures felt like they had separated some. I did this all day long. This method works well because you stress the sutures for 1-2 minutes, and then let them rest for an hour before the next time you facepull.

I've just barely started using this method to try and create expansion and not forward growth like most people use facepulling for, but what I can say so far is this: With a starting intermolar width of 31.8mm measured using a digital caliper, after I spent an entire day chewing gum, I gained no expansion at all. After I spent an entire day doing super hard mewing, I gained no expansion at all. But after I spent an entire day using my thumbs to do gentle expansion of the palate for 2 minutes at a time every hour, my intermolar width changed from 31.88mm to 32.04mm and I was able to retain this expansion overnight by using an expander that wasn't even applying much pressure. I know it's not much but that was just after one day of doing the gentle pulling and I am one hundred percent positive that my measurements were accurate.

This idea is very experimental, and I can't say anything for sure, but if it ends up working then I think that it could become one of the main ways for adults to adjust and grow the skull. If it ends up being legitimate then it can probably be used for all sorts of things like moving the maxilla forward and more. I plan to begin using it consistently very soon in order to gain expansion of my palate and to try and center my midline as well.

Be warned that I have no clue if this idea will work, if it will create good or bad changes, or even if it is safe or not. Following from that, if you decide to try this out on yourself, you are doing so at your own risk. I have read way too many stories of people ruining their faces, their teeth, their jaw joints, and their bites through bad facepulling to present this idea without a disclaimer. You should probably only attempt this if you really know what you are doing and if you aren't doing things out of desperation. Remember that the pulling should be gentle. Also realize that proper Mewing and chewing are all most people will need. With that said, I am going to try it on myself and see what happens.

I've created this thread as a way to share this idea, as a place to post my own results, and as a place to collect the results of anyone else who wants to try it out.

Similar Ideas:

@progress has shared an interesting link where someone else talks about doing something very similar:

http://www.debugyourhealth.com/orthodontics-and-cranial-structure/

https://archive.fo/C2ZZl

Scroll down to the section called "Home Osteopathic Exercises to Widen the Palate" near the bottom of the page to read about it.

Testimonials:

I will collect some testimonials from around the forum here. I recommend reading the linked threads as you get to see a more complete view of what people experience with the technique, both good and bad.

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/frequent-low-tension-facepulling-a-potentially-effective-new-technique-for-adjusting-the-skull-by-hand/#post-3466

Posted by: Krollic

I started at around 40mm imw about 4 months ago, except at the ripe old age of 23 and I was struggling to make results despite tongue posture being rather easy to maintain throughout the waking day. I only started to get rapid results when I began introducing exercises and techniques such as;

Thumb pulling - A manual expansion technique that involves pressing firmly on the inner-side of your teeth, gums and palate outwards and forwards to stimulate growth. Every 1 to 1.5 hours I do it for about 1 or 2 minutes at a time from when I wake to the moment before I go to bed. It has rapidly increased my gains. I'm now at about 45mm IMW in the past couple of months and I accredit it mainly to this technique. It's like an expansion device except is it free and pretty easy to do. I think it is low risk also. The downsides of it is that it requires vigilance and dedication and isn't exactly fun.

I would suggest this technique for intermediate mewers once they have a solid understanding of oral functions.

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/options-for-expansion/#post-4692

Posted by: Krollic

Yep, it's accelerated my results substantially. Every hour to 1.5 hour or so I push outwards and forward on the inner side of my teeth, then gums. then palate for about 2 minutes at a time with a very firm force. I feel/hear sutures pop when I do this.

Really effective for raising Inter molar width imo

so far i've gained 2mm of IMW in the past 2 weeks. a tiny amount of it may be due to slight tipping. it has made tongue posture substantially easier

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/what-is-everything-that-can-be-done-according-to-all-what-we-know-so-far/#post-4813

Posted by: Jimbobape

Anyways the past couple months I discovered that if I yank on my maxilla hard enough with my thumbs the sutures way back give way so I was able to improve my angle a lot with that. But unfortunately, my cheekbones didn't really follow suit so only my under-nose support, lips and gonial angle improved really. 

Quick disclaimer My hand strength is immense, I have not met a person able to do this yet besides me.  

Another thing I discovered was that with my thumbs in mouth palate expansion method (it's exactly as it sounds), if I did a slow 60-120 second hold of lower intensity, I would legitimately feel my palate split down the middle. Very intense and painful feeling, feels like hot searing pain down the back - I can momentarily gain about 3mm or more when I do this. My face literally splits apart when I do this in the mirror ahaha it's crazy. If I had a removable palate expander I could honestly gain a centimeter of width in a week no exaggeration.

https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/18m-deathmewing-6000-cals-day-raw-milk-raw-meat-raw-egg-diet-day-2-report-2/#post-9444

Posted by: Euclid

I'm 33 and began mewing back on-off since March, I would say with certainty that my mewing progress was very minor, and I attribute that to poor posture and form. Around June, I then decided to switch up and supplement it with thumb-based face pulling and even belt pulling - I believe the former concept was first introduced by Keengo? In my case I didn't expect much, but was I surprised to see the result. First I measured my inter-molar dental width which using dental calipers I purchased on Amazon, initial reading were 34.8mm - 3 weeks into routing face pulling and the occasional mewing and this jumped up to close to 37mm, and it definitely showed physically (definitely not placebo).

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling-my-experience/#post-12087

This topic was modified 9 months ago 14 times by Allixa
Quote
Posted : 13/05/2018 8:23 pm
GreekGodBrody, Adam, Apollo and 3 people liked
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing. I'm typing on my iPad 2 now and the camera sucks, I can take a picture later and hopefully I can get some feedback on this monkey face thing. My thinking is that some chewing will help with this as I think monkey face basically consists of prominent nasal labial folds, mandible not forward grown enough and a long philtrum. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

My personal method is I do this every hour (except during sleep) while standing and in a Mackenzie chin tuck. I don't go for the full 2 minutes, rather I go until I don't feel any loosening of suture for 10 seconds, which takes anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute and a half. This method is excellent for suture loosening, have not encountered a superior method thus far.

I believe in this method and will continue, thanks again Allixa!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/05/2018 9:12 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing. I'm typing on my iPad 2 now and the camera sucks, I can take a picture later and hopefully I can get some feedback on this monkey face thing. My thinking is that some chewing will help with this as I think monkey face basically consists of prominent nasal labial folds, mandible not forward grown enough and a long philtrum. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

My personal method is I do this every hour (except during sleep) while standing and in a Mackenzie chin tuck. I don't go for the full 2 minutes, rather I go until I don't feel any loosening of suture for 10 seconds, which takes anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute and a half. This method is excellent for suture loosening, have not encountered a superior method thus far.

I believe in this method and will continue, thanks again Allixa!

Are you saying this facepull method gave you monkey face or that it is something you have struggled with all along ?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/05/2018 11:45 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing. I'm typing on my iPad 2 now and the camera sucks, I can take a picture later and hopefully I can get some feedback on this monkey face thing. My thinking is that some chewing will help with this as I think monkey face basically consists of prominent nasal labial folds, mandible not forward grown enough and a long philtrum. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

My personal method is I do this every hour (except during sleep) while standing and in a Mackenzie chin tuck. I don't go for the full 2 minutes, rather I go until I don't feel any loosening of suture for 10 seconds, which takes anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute and a half. This method is excellent for suture loosening, have not encountered a superior method thus far.

I believe in this method and will continue, thanks again Allixa!

Are you saying this facepull method gave you monkey face or that it is something you have struggled with all along ?

It's something I've had on and off with mewing. I think it has to do with forward growth of the maxilla when expanding, but then the mandible lags behind a bit for some time, then catches up and things return to normal. Prominent nasal labial folds and a longer philtrum complete the "look". It's been described as an awkward phase that eventually passes. I'm seeing evidence that it's passing.

I'll describe what I was seeing in the mirror if it makes sense. On some days, I'd look at my profile and my upper lip would be jutted forward 1-2mm more than my lower lip, couple days thereafter they would meet again. No change in my bite as far as I can tell.

This is a quick method of expansion, I was shocked. But it makes sense considering how much suture separation occurs (quite a lot). 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 12:26 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing. I'm typing on my iPad 2 now and the camera sucks, I can take a picture later and hopefully I can get some feedback on this monkey face thing. My thinking is that some chewing will help with this as I think monkey face basically consists of prominent nasal labial folds, mandible not forward grown enough and a long philtrum. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

My personal method is I do this every hour (except during sleep) while standing and in a Mackenzie chin tuck. I don't go for the full 2 minutes, rather I go until I don't feel any loosening of suture for 10 seconds, which takes anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute and a half. This method is excellent for suture loosening, have not encountered a superior method thus far.

I believe in this method and will continue, thanks again Allixa!

Are you saying this facepull method gave you monkey face or that it is something you have struggled with all along ?

It's something I've had on and off with mewing. I think it has to do with forward growth of the maxilla when expanding, but then the mandible lags behind a bit for some time, then catches up and things return to normal. Prominent nasal labial folds and a longer philtrum complete the "look". It's been described as an awkward phase that eventually passes. I'm seeing evidence that it's passing.

I'll describe what I was seeing in the mirror if it makes sense. On some days, I'd look at my profile and my upper lip would be jutted forward 1-2mm more than my lower lip, couple days thereafter they would meet again. No change in my bite as far as I can tell.

This is a quick method of expansion, I was shocked. But it makes sense considering how much suture separation occurs (quite a lot). 

Wait, so this isn't a maloclussion? You're saying your maxilla moves forward and then your teeth still fit, but your face develops a weak chin and a low nasolabial angle? 

I wonder if this is posture related honestly. I find it odd that your bite fits yet your lip relation and nasolabial region also changes. I know that when I don't McKenzie chin tuck that I can look monkey faced myself due  the mandible being improperly positioned under the maxilla. 

I could understand if rapid expansion causes temporary maloclussion which then would make sense that your chin relation to your profile weakens. But the fact your bite continues to fit makes me wonder then if head positioning may be to blame.

Realistically maxillary upswing and expansion should bring a person to a neutral profile inclination (aka flat profile) since it is maxillary recession itself that causes monkey face.  I know because as my maxilla improves my profile gets flatter and flatter. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 12:55 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm, please keep in mind this is hard to measure with pin-point precision though, as I'm using a tape measure and might be measuring to a different point on the nose tip.

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing. I'm typing on my iPad 2 now and the camera sucks, I can take a picture later and hopefully I can get some feedback on this monkey face thing. My thinking is that some chewing will help with this as I think monkey face basically consists of prominent nasal labial folds, mandible not forward grown enough and a long philtrum. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

My personal method is I do this every hour (except during sleep) while standing and in a Mackenzie chin tuck. I don't go for the full 2 minutes, rather I go until I don't feel any loosening of suture for 10 seconds, which takes anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute and a half. This method is excellent for suture loosening, have not encountered a superior method thus far.

I believe in this method and will continue, thanks again Allixa!

Are you saying this facepull method gave you monkey face or that it is something you have struggled with all along ?

It's something I've had on and off with mewing. I think it has to do with forward growth of the maxilla when expanding, but then the mandible lags behind a bit for some time, then catches up and things return to normal. Prominent nasal labial folds and a longer philtrum complete the "look". It's been described as an awkward phase that eventually passes. I'm seeing evidence that it's passing.

I'll describe what I was seeing in the mirror if it makes sense. On some days, I'd look at my profile and my upper lip would be jutted forward 1-2mm more than my lower lip, couple days thereafter they would meet again. No change in my bite as far as I can tell.

This is a quick method of expansion, I was shocked. But it makes sense considering how much suture separation occurs (quite a lot). 

Wait, so this isn't a maloclussion? You're saying your maxilla moves forward and then your teeth still fit, but your face develops a weak chin and a low nasolabial angle? 

I wonder if this is posture related honestly. I find it odd that your bite fits yet your lip relation and nasolabial region also changes. I know that when I don't McKenzie chin tuck that I can look monkey faced myself due  the mandible being improperly positioned under the maxilla. 

I could understand if rapid expansion causes temporary maloclussion which then would make sense that your chin relation to your profile weakens. But the fact your bite continues to fit makes me wonder then if head positioning may be to blame.

Realistically maxillary upswing and expansion should bring a person to a neutral profile inclination (aka flat profile) since it is maxillary recession itself that causes monkey face.  I know because as my maxilla improves my profile gets flatter and flatter. 

This method actually made my chin look a lot better, it was on the shorter side (actually too short) now it looks more prominent.

The lip relation thing has been temporary, lasting a day or so each time that occurs.

My nasal labial folds haven't changed much, or a change hasn't occurred here which I'd attribute to the face pulling. It's more like a gamut of things coming together to create this appearance. Which is fading. I'm 35 and "treat" n/l folds with OMC, which I've slacked off on because I need to re-order my gum. I'm confident they'll go away again upon resuming chewing, which is what's always occurred.

Not sure I follow on what is attributable to posture? I practically live in a Mackenzie chin tuck.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 1:15 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

@Greensmoothies 

So monkey face only lasted a day or so at a time?

My theory is your mandible had not yet gotten used to the new maxilla position so your brain was trying to figure out what to do with your mandible. But once the mandible got adjusted to your new maxilla then monkey face went away. In other words even with McKenzie chin tucks your face still had a temporary issue with positioning.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 2:19 am
Progress
Member Moderator

On the old forum someone shared a blogpost from a mother who used her thumbs to gently massage & stretch the palates of her ~5 year old daughters for a short while every evening. Their crowded arches straightened out and faces changed a lot in just a few weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if some get results from it even as adults.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 8:11 am
Banknote
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

@Greensmoothies 

So monkey face only lasted a day or so at a time?

My theory is your mandible had not yet gotten used to the new maxilla position so your brain was trying to figure out what to do with your mandible. But once the mandible got adjusted to your new maxilla then monkey face went away. In other words even with McKenzie chin tucks your face still had a temporary issue with positioning.

What is this monkey face? 

A lei do esforço nunca falha

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 9:14 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Banknote
Posted by: EddieMoney

@Greensmoothies 

So monkey face only lasted a day or so at a time?

My theory is your mandible had not yet gotten used to the new maxilla position so your brain was trying to figure out what to do with your mandible. But once the mandible got adjusted to your new maxilla then monkey face went away. In other words even with McKenzie chin tucks your face still had a temporary issue with positioning.

What is this monkey face? 

Further up  @Greensmoothies explained but if I have it right, it is when the mandible seems to position improperly thus the chin is weakened and philtrum made longer. I also take it that prominent NL folds will draw attention to this.  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 11:29 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

@Greensmoothies 

So monkey face only lasted a day or so at a time?

My theory is your mandible had not yet gotten used to the new maxilla position so your brain was trying to figure out what to do with your mandible. But once the mandible got adjusted to your new maxilla then monkey face went away. In other words even with McKenzie chin tucks your face still had a temporary issue with positioning.

Yes, it's temporary (a few days or so) then things start to get better, and I think this is exactly what happens as you explained with the mandible catching up. But a little nitpick, I don't think the method gave me a longer philtrum at any time (and I've seen a 1mm here decrease since last month) rather because I just have a philtrum a mm or so longer than normal, plus prominent nasal labial folds (when I don't OMC gum, as this makes them look much better). So it all came together as "monkey face" however I wasn't concerned because this has occurred at points during my mewing journey. But since this is a seemingly much quicker method, it comes on faster so I wanted to mention it in case people try this and encounter the same thing, in case it helps.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 11:56 am
krollic
Estimable Member

How is this method performed?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 12:12 pm
Couda
Eminent Member

Interesting. What community is that? How is your palate now?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 12:48 pm
noach
Active Member
Posted by: krollic

How is this method performed?

I’m also curious about this.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 1:18 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney

@Greensmoothies 

So monkey face only lasted a day or so at a time?

My theory is your mandible had not yet gotten used to the new maxilla position so your brain was trying to figure out what to do with your mandible. But once the mandible got adjusted to your new maxilla then monkey face went away. In other words even with McKenzie chin tucks your face still had a temporary issue with positioning.

Yes, it's temporary (a few days or so) then things start to get better, and I think this is exactly what happens as you explained with the mandible catching up. But a little nitpick, I don't think the method gave me a longer philtrum at any time (and I've seen a 1mm here decrease since last month) rather because I just have a philtrum a mm or so longer than normal, plus prominent nasal labial folds (when I don't OMC gum, as this makes them look much better). So it all came together as "monkey face" however I wasn't concerned because this has occurred at points during my mewing journey. But since this is a seemingly much quicker method, it comes on faster so I wanted to mention it in case people try this and encounter the same thing, in case it helps.

Do you have a naturally wide face? I find that women with longer philtrums tend to wide faces as opposed to narrow. Would you say this is the case for you?  

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 1:59 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney

@Greensmoothies 

So monkey face only lasted a day or so at a time?

My theory is your mandible had not yet gotten used to the new maxilla position so your brain was trying to figure out what to do with your mandible. But once the mandible got adjusted to your new maxilla then monkey face went away. In other words even with McKenzie chin tucks your face still had a temporary issue with positioning.

Yes, it's temporary (a few days or so) then things start to get better, and I think this is exactly what happens as you explained with the mandible catching up. But a little nitpick, I don't think the method gave me a longer philtrum at any time (and I've seen a 1mm here decrease since last month) rather because I just have a philtrum a mm or so longer than normal, plus prominent nasal labial folds (when I don't OMC gum, as this makes them look much better). So it all came together as "monkey face" however I wasn't concerned because this has occurred at points during my mewing journey. But since this is a seemingly much quicker method, it comes on faster so I wanted to mention it in case people try this and encounter the same thing, in case it helps.

Do you have a naturally wide face? I find that women with longer philtrums tend to wide faces as opposed to narrow. Would you say this is the case for you?  

I dunno, how do I measure that? I don't think my face is narrow, not sure if it classifies as wide, though. I'll take some before after pics to post in a week or so to help track the facepulling progress.

I discovered I have to buy a new sun hat this year, I've expanded my palate from 29mm to 42mm since I started mewing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 2:39 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: EddieMoney

@Greensmoothies 

So monkey face only lasted a day or so at a time?

My theory is your mandible had not yet gotten used to the new maxilla position so your brain was trying to figure out what to do with your mandible. But once the mandible got adjusted to your new maxilla then monkey face went away. In other words even with McKenzie chin tucks your face still had a temporary issue with positioning.

Yes, it's temporary (a few days or so) then things start to get better, and I think this is exactly what happens as you explained with the mandible catching up. But a little nitpick, I don't think the method gave me a longer philtrum at any time (and I've seen a 1mm here decrease since last month) rather because I just have a philtrum a mm or so longer than normal, plus prominent nasal labial folds (when I don't OMC gum, as this makes them look much better). So it all came together as "monkey face" however I wasn't concerned because this has occurred at points during my mewing journey. But since this is a seemingly much quicker method, it comes on faster so I wanted to mention it in case people try this and encounter the same thing, in case it helps.

Do you have a naturally wide face? I find that women with longer philtrums tend to wide faces as opposed to narrow. Would you say this is the case for you?  

I dunno, how do I measure that? I don't think my face is narrow, not sure if it classifies as wide, though. I'll take some before after pics to post in a week or so to help track the facepulling progress.

I discovered I have to buy a new sun hat this year, I've expanded my palate from 29mm to 42mm since I started mewing.

Is your face more like a square or rectangle? More round or oblong? Or is it diamond or heart shaped?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 3:47 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

This method actually made my chin look a lot better, it was on the shorter side (actually too short) now it looks more prominent. 

I discovered I have to buy a new sun hat this year, I've expanded my palate from 29mm to 42mm since I started mewing.

The improvement in measurements that you have gotten is great. In such a short period of time too. I'm glad it's working for you and helping you feel suture separation is happening. Are you pulling sideways and outwards at the same time?

Also did you expand from 29mm to 41mm just using your tongue and do you remember how long it took?

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing.

The lip relation thing has been temporary, lasting a day or so each time that occurs.

I wonder about this issue as well. I had some reservations about face pulling in general, being worried that it would tilt the maxilla more than actually grow it forward. Do you think this explains what you are experiencing? Also just to be completely clear, did you ever experience this before the facepulling, meaning did this technique make it happen or is it something that has been happening to you for a while? I want to know for sure whether this technique is causing you to have some issues.

If it is something that you have been dealing with for a while then perhaps it can be explained by being a temporary phase that happens every time your face grows forward and the rest of your body has to play catch up. If it comes and goes then that might explain it.

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Posted : 14/05/2018 5:07 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: Couda

Interesting. What community is that? How is your palate now?

It comes from a body hacking community that I found on the site Reddit.

My palate now is still at 31.8mm because I didn't do any experimenting beyond that initial day due to some things that came up. My plan is to get started again very soon for the long haul. I'll use this thread to make updates.

Posted by: krollic

How is this method performed?

Specifically, I use my thumbs with my palms facing upwards to pull my palate apart very gently while also pushing the entire face up and out a bit. I do my best to touch as little of the actual teeth as possible with the sideways forces and just pull in ways that feel good very gently and for a very short period of time (1-2 min). After experimenting with it a bit your body should begin to let you know what works and what doesn't.

Posted by: Progress

On the old forum someone shared a blogpost from a mother who used her thumbs to gently massage & stretch the palates of her ~5 year old daughters for a short while every evening. Their crowded arches straightened out and faces changed a lot in just a few weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if some get results from it even as adults.

@progress, that sounds very interesting. I tried searching for it but couldn't find anything. Do you happen to have a link to the blog post?

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Posted : 14/05/2018 5:13 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Found it:  http://www.debugyourhealth.com/orthodontics-and-cranial-structure/

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Posted : 14/05/2018 6:43 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@EddieMoney I think my face shape is rectangle or maybe oval

Posted by: Allixa

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Thanks for starting this thread and sharing this idea, @Allixa. I started on this a few weeks ago and measuring by tape measure, I've gone from 41mm to 42mm intermolar

Most notably my maxilla (and mandible) swung up rapidly, effectively eliminating my weak-looking chin area. While an improvement, my guess is I need 4mm forward growth here to eliminate CFD. Not sure what this means exactly, but my Mew indicator line score is 41mm and a month ago it was 44mm. My philtrum is long for a woman but it is shortening somehow, I check each day with my pinky finger. I just measured it at 16mm when it was 17mm last month.

This method actually made my chin look a lot better, it was on the shorter side (actually too short) now it looks more prominent. 

I discovered I have to buy a new sun hat this year, I've expanded my palate from 29mm to 42mm since I started mewing.

The improvement in measurements that you have gotten is great. In such a short period of time too. I'm glad it's working for you and helping you feel suture separation is happening. Are you pulling sideways and outwards at the same time?

Also did you expand from 29mm to 41mm just using your tongue and do you remember how long it took?

Issue I've encountered is what I think is called monkey face, which I'm hoping and even hopeful is some kind of awkward phase, as it seems to be slowly decreasing.

The lip relation thing has been temporary, lasting a day or so each time that occurs.

I wonder about this issue as well. I had some reservations about face pulling in general, being worried that it would tilt the maxilla more than actually grow it forward. Do you think this explains what you are experiencing? Also just to be completely clear, did you ever experience this before the facepulling, meaning did this technique make it happen or is it something that has been happening to you for a while? I want to know for sure whether this technique is causing you to have some issues.

If it is something that you have been dealing with for a while then perhaps it can be explained by being a temporary phase that happens every time your face grows forward and the rest of your body has to play catch up. If it comes and goes then that might explain it.

Yeah I'm pulling sideways and up and out. The way I pull is I place my thumbs beside my farthest back molars, left thumb at 165, right at 15, then my thumbs are exiting my mouth at a 60 degree angle and then I place my index fingers anchored to my forehead, at the hairline. And while doing this I get in to a Mackenzie tuck position.

I went to 29mm to 41mm with just mewing plus some chewing and it took 5 years

re: monkey face, it's occurred on and off over the years while mewing. I believe it's temporary this time as well, and think your theory is correct, and it's getting better slowly. I also think I'm overdue to resume some OMC with gum, this has never failed to reduce nasal labial folds and improve face aesthetics generally. I also am exploring the idea that improving my Buccal corridors will generally help here

I believe my maxilla has at least become more tilted upwards and mandible swung up with it at least. Palate appears wider too so I wasn't too shocked with the increase of 1mm according to my measurement

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Posted : 14/05/2018 6:56 pm
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Allixa
Estimable Member

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Yeah I'm pulling sideways and up and out. The way I pull is I place my thumbs beside my farthest back molars, left thumb at 165, right at 15, then my thumbs are exiting my mouth at a 60 degree angle and then I place my index fingers anchored to my forehead, at the hairline. And while doing this I get in to a Mackenzie tuck position.

I went to 29mm to 41mm with just mewing plus some chewing and it took 5 years

re: monkey face, it's occurred on and off over the years while mewing. I believe it's temporary this time as well, and think your theory is correct, and it's getting better slowly. I also think I'm overdue to resume some OMC with gum, this has never failed to reduce nasal labial folds and improve face aesthetics generally. I also am exploring the idea that improving my Buccal corridors will generally help here

I believe my maxilla has at least become more tilted upwards and mandible swung up with it at least. Palate appears wider too so I wasn't too shocked with the increase of 1mm according to my measurement

When you say 165 and 15, you mean like it's on a line from 0 to 180? I'm pretty sure I get what you mean. I do the exact same thing. It feels right.

Your previous expansion was about 2mm per year, so if you can get 2mm in a month from this method that would be a huge acceleration.

Keep it up. I will join the experiment as well soon.

Posted by: Progress

Found it:  http://www.debugyourhealth.com/orthodontics-and-cranial-structure/

 Thanks for sharing this. It seems very similar to what we are doing here. It looks like it worked well for her daughter and quickly too. Hopefully this technique works well on adults and ends up being another good tool in addition to mewing, chewing, etc.

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Posted : 14/05/2018 10:32 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: Allixa

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Yeah I'm pulling sideways and up and out. The way I pull is I place my thumbs beside my farthest back molars, left thumb at 165, right at 15, then my thumbs are exiting my mouth at a 60 degree angle and then I place my index fingers anchored to my forehead, at the hairline. And while doing this I get in to a Mackenzie tuck position.

I went to 29mm to 41mm with just mewing plus some chewing and it took 5 years

re: monkey face, it's occurred on and off over the years while mewing. I believe it's temporary this time as well, and think your theory is correct, and it's getting better slowly. I also think I'm overdue to resume some OMC with gum, this has never failed to reduce nasal labial folds and improve face aesthetics generally. I also am exploring the idea that improving my Buccal corridors will generally help here

I believe my maxilla has at least become more tilted upwards and mandible swung up with it at least. Palate appears wider too so I wasn't too shocked with the increase of 1mm according to my measurement

When you say 165 and 15, you mean like it's on a line from 0 to 180? I'm pretty sure I get what you mean. I do the exact same thing. It feels right.

Your previous expansion was about 2mm per year, so if you can get 2mm in a month from this method that would be a huge acceleration.

Keep it up. I will join the experiment as well soon.

Posted by: Progress

Found it:  http://www.debugyourhealth.com/orthodontics-and-cranial-structure/

 Thanks for sharing this. It seems very similar to what we are doing here. It looks like it worked well for her daughter and quickly too. Hopefully this technique works well on adults and ends up being another good tool in addition to mewing, chewing, etc.

Yep that's what I mean re: position of thumbs on palate.

Thanks, I hope things speed up like that, too!

When you pull, do you get lots of those sounds of the sutures opening? I get anywhere from 2-12 per session. Anyway as I mentioned before, I haven't encountered a method that provoked this much suture loosening before. Attached is the first page of a study I was reading the other day, really amazed by your discovery @Allixa. Also I chewed some today and my n/l folds are more diminished again, I think that helped return things to looking like normal again now

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Posted : 15/05/2018 12:28 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Allixa

Posted by: Greensmoothies

Yeah I'm pulling sideways and up and out. The way I pull is I place my thumbs beside my farthest back molars, left thumb at 165, right at 15, then my thumbs are exiting my mouth at a 60 degree angle and then I place my index fingers anchored to my forehead, at the hairline. And while doing this I get in to a Mackenzie tuck position.

I went to 29mm to 41mm with just mewing plus some chewing and it took 5 years

re: monkey face, it's occurred on and off over the years while mewing. I believe it's temporary this time as well, and think your theory is correct, and it's getting better slowly. I also think I'm overdue to resume some OMC with gum, this has never failed to reduce nasal labial folds and improve face aesthetics generally. I also am exploring the idea that improving my Buccal corridors will generally help here

I believe my maxilla has at least become more tilted upwards and mandible swung up with it at least. Palate appears wider too so I wasn't too shocked with the increase of 1mm according to my measurement

When you say 165 and 15, you mean like it's on a line from 0 to 180? I'm pretty sure I get what you mean. I do the exact same thing. It feels right.

Your previous expansion was about 2mm per year, so if you can get 2mm in a month from this method that would be a huge acceleration.

Keep it up. I will join the experiment as well soon.

Posted by: Progress

Found it:  http://www.debugyourhealth.com/orthodontics-and-cranial-structure/

 Thanks for sharing this. It seems very similar to what we are doing here. It looks like it worked well for her daughter and quickly too. Hopefully this technique works well on adults and ends up being another good tool in addition to mewing, chewing, etc.

Yep that's what I mean re: position of thumbs on palate.

Thanks, I hope things speed up like that, too!

When you pull, do you get lots of those sounds of the sutures opening? I get anywhere from 2-12 per session. Anyway as I mentioned before, I haven't encountered a method that provoked this much suture loosening before. Attached is the first page of a study I was reading the other day, really amazed by your discovery @Allixa. Also I chewed some today and my n/l folds are more diminished again, I think that helped return things to looking like normal again now

Where do you hear these sounds? Deep in the sinus? Does your nose clear up after?

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Posted : 15/05/2018 8:32 am
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Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@Progress it's a bit "all over the map" so to speak, but yes I've felt immediate opening of nasal passage while I'm pulling, not every time though

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Posted : 15/05/2018 10:54 am
Banknote
Eminent Member
Posted by: Allixa
Posted by: Couda

Interesting. What community is that? How is your palate now?

It comes from a body hacking community that I found on the site Reddit.

My palate now is still at 31.8mm because I didn't do any experimenting beyond that initial day due to some things that came up. My plan is to get started again very soon for the long haul. I'll use this thread to make updates.

Posted by: krollic

How is this method performed?

Specifically, I use my thumbs with my palms facing upwards to pull my palate apart very gently while also pushing the entire face up and out a bit. I do my best to touch as little of the actual teeth as possible with the sideways forces and just pull in ways that feel good very gently and for a very short period of time (1-2 min). After experimenting with it a bit your body should begin to let you know what works and what doesn't.

Posted by: Progress

On the old forum someone shared a blogpost from a mother who used her thumbs to gently massage & stretch the palates of her ~5 year old daughters for a short while every evening. Their crowded arches straightened out and faces changed a lot in just a few weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if some get results from it even as adults.

@progress, that sounds very interesting. I tried searching for it but couldn't find anything. Do you happen to have a link to the blog post?

this is hands position ?

A lei do esforço nunca falha

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Posted : 15/05/2018 11:18 am
stanzi liked
Allixa
Estimable Member

Posted by: Banknote

this is hands position ?

Yeah exactly. Sometimes I will rest my fingers on the side of my head while I am doing the facepulling.

Posted by: Greensmoothies

When you pull, do you get lots of those sounds of the sutures opening? I get anywhere from 2-12 per session. Anyway as I mentioned before, I haven't encountered a method that provoked this much suture loosening before. Attached is the first page of a study I was reading the other day, really amazed by your discovery @Allixa. Also I chewed some today and my n/l folds are more diminished again, I think that helped return things to looking like normal again now

I haven't gotten the suture opening sounds yet, but I'm hoping they will begin once I get into a more consistent routine. What I do get though is an intense feeling of pleasure almost like a jolt through my body as I am doing the facepulling. Not sure how or why that happens though. One thing I have experimented with is to hum while doing the facepulling because I read that vibrations can help loosen sutures. But it sounds like it's effective enough without that.

Interesting study too. It seems to hint at the idea of the skull remodeling itself automatically as it grows from the sutures.

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Posted : 15/05/2018 4:41 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

How does one account for unbalanced grip strength when pulling ? I feel my facial asymmetry may be worsened since my weak hand is pulling on the weak side. 

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Posted : 15/05/2018 5:16 pm
Banknote and scry liked
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

How does one account for unbalanced grip strength when pulling ? I feel my facial asymmetry may be worsened since my weak hand is pulling on the weak side. 

When pulling, I am constantly adjusting the tension that each hand is using according to what feels good. I don't just simply pull statically, it's more of a pulsating/massaging/constantly changing type thing that I am doing with my hands. I also use my neck muscles to pull backwards against my hands as I use my hands to pull forwards and outwards. It's kind of tough to explain; you just have to do what feels right.

If you aren't in tune with your body this technique might not work well for you. Or maybe it just takes some time to figure out how to do it right. My advice is just to feel things out until the idea clicks for you. But keep in mind the disclaimers that I gave in the first post.

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Posted : 15/05/2018 6:04 pm
PaperBag
Trusted Member

I've been doing this every hour since yesterday for about 90 seconds each session, feels like it could be quite effective over time. Because I haven't seen results or felt much at all through any other method so far, I have thoughts like "I'm gonna ruin my face by doing this" just because my bones responding at all is so foreign. My thumbs don't go near my teeth when pushing, but I still have the urge to be hyper-vigilant of doing something wrong. I do get some sensations of pressure in my head every time I'm done, as well as a mild 'good mood' pulsation in my face, for lack of a better term.

Remember how suspicious it was when Plato (the hockey helmet face puller) claimed that 30 minutes of pulling a day was enough? 2 minutes every hour would add up to that, and as it's already been said, the body wouldn't get used to the pressure like it would doing the full 30 minutes all at once and nothing else for the rest of the day. On top of that, you can control the angle of pressure with your thumbs a lot easier than repeatedly adjusting the elastics on a helmet.

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Posted : 15/05/2018 9:19 pm
voltaire
Eminent Member

I'm in for this. I think the force vectors and tractability are much preferred to belt facepulling. If only I had the finger strength to pull for prolonged periods. 

Re: Nasolabial folds

Put a pencil behind your canine teeth and maintain that position for 20-30 minutes per day, or more often if possible. Of course, you can't mew while doing this, but it works. Alternatively, hold a kissing face whenever possible. 

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Posted : 15/05/2018 9:43 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: voltaire

I'm in for this. I think the force vectors and tractability are much preferred to belt facepulling. If only I had the finger strength to pull for prolonged periods. 

Re: Nasolabial folds

Put a pencil behind your canine teeth and maintain that position for 20-30 minutes per day, or more often if possible. Of course, you can't mew while doing this, but it works. Alternatively, hold a kissing face whenever possible. 

I bet you could get benefits with as little as 10 seconds of pulling per hour, especially if you can get some suture separation in that time.

I'll try those exercises, I wonder if adding some vibration with the kissing move would help more for our purposes like so:  https://youtu.be/KqtY_SjA3DI?t=1m20s

Some good ideas for pulling technique @Allixa, I find that adjusting the thumbs will help produce more suture separation sounds. Definitely will try the humming. Pulsing is a good idea too, a dentist in the AGGA thread mentioned that pulsing the pressure on the palate helps induce more bone growth, seems to double the results per month. I was wondering about that because there's science behind that with skin regeneration, but never tried because Mew just seems to mention constant pressure being key

BTW everyone, I have an additional thought on the monkey face. Today I did some face massage and I've ate more in the past few days. My face returned to normal. I also lost 2 pounds since I started this, so between that and consuming more calories seemingly coinciding with my monkey face going away, I'm thinking this can consume a lot of energy. So just a heads up, you might need to eat more than you're used to.

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Posted : 15/05/2018 11:07 pm
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PaperBag
Trusted Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: voltaire

I'm in for this. I think the force vectors and tractability are much preferred to belt facepulling. If only I had the finger strength to pull for prolonged periods. 

Re: Nasolabial folds

Put a pencil behind your canine teeth and maintain that position for 20-30 minutes per day, or more often if possible. Of course, you can't mew while doing this, but it works. Alternatively, hold a kissing face whenever possible. 

I bet you could get benefits with as little as 10 seconds of pulling per hour, especially if you can get some suture separation in that time.

I'll try those exercises, I wonder if adding some vibration with the kissing move would help more for our purposes like so:  https://youtu.be/KqtY_SjA3DI?t=1m20s

Some good ideas for pulling technique @Allixa, I find that adjusting the thumbs will help produce more suture separation sounds. Definitely will try the humming. Pulsing is a good idea too, a dentist in the AGGA thread mentioned that pulsing the pressure on the palate helps induce more bone growth, seems to double the results per month. I was wondering about that because there's science behind that with skin regeneration, but never tried because Mew just seems to mention constant pressure being key

BTW everyone, I have an additional thought on the monkey face. Today I did some face massage and I've ate more in the past few days. My face returned to normal. I also lost 2 pounds since I started this, so between that and consuming more calories seemingly coinciding with my monkey face going away, I'm thinking this can consume a lot of energy. So just a heads up, you might need to eat more than you're used to.

By "pulsing", do you mean a pressure of repeated kneading motions like a massage instead of statically holding your thumbs in one place? If so, that's what I've been doing so far.

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Posted : 15/05/2018 11:25 pm
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Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@PaperBag yes that's what I've been doing as well, and I'll switch between that and pressing and holding a bit too, moving my thumbs around a bit too, but not gravitating too far from the back most molars, nor changing the angle of my thumbs or forefingers much. I'm trying to intuitively maximize the suture separation by mixing it up a little

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Posted : 16/05/2018 12:22 am
PaperBag liked
PaperBag
Trusted Member

@Greensmoothies Do you also feel pressure around your temples after you've pulled? I just pulled again (without much pressure) and feel a bit light headed with some sensations around the side of my skull lasting for the past 20 minutes. I wouldn't call them bad symptoms but they don't feel pleasant. Anything like this after 2.5 years of next to no change is a paradigm shift, that's for sure.

On a side note, there was another thread recently where HIIT was mentioned as an HGH enhancer of several hundred percent, and HGH could help with facial bone remodelling. I gave it a try about an hour ago and will see over time if it does anything in tandem with the pulling.

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Posted : 16/05/2018 1:33 am
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: PaperBag

@Greensmoothies Do you also feel pressure around your temples after you've pulled? I just pulled again (without much pressure) and feel a bit light headed with some sensations around the side of my skull lasting for the past 20 minutes. I wouldn't call them bad symptoms but they don't feel pleasant. Anything like this after 2.5 years of next to no change is a paradigm shift, that's for sure.

On a side note, there was another thread recently where HIIT was mentioned as an HGH enhancer of several hundred percent, and HGH could help with facial bone remodelling. I gave it a try about an hour ago and will see over time if it does anything in tandem with the pulling.

Those side effects could be from the HIIT as well. I'm not sure what your athletic background is like or what type of HIIT you did, but it's a possibility to keep in mind. Maybe try pulling for a few more days without HIIT just to make sure it's safe for you.

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Posted : 16/05/2018 2:11 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@PaperBag I pulled just now and I don't feel much of that sensation, just a little bit, but I'm more numb/unaware of feelings and pain than most people. For the most part I'm feeling some palate tingling. As well, I've been mewing for 5 years, and for a long while I've tried to ensure I always feel it in my skull, so I might be really accustomed to skull pressure and can't give the best answer here.

My suggestion is try to eat as much as you feel you need, especially with adding exercise I'd think your dietary needs might've increased, possibly by a lot, and could help with the light-headedness. I now suspect one of the reasons I developed a "monkey face" was that I wasn't eating enough, in fact I lost 2 lbs in 2 weeks which is extremely unusual for me, and I had fairly quick cessation of symptoms with some relaxing face massage and eating more. I'm also going to try napping with my daughter because I'm having the urge to. My guess is this face pulling requires a lot of energy, or for myself at least. I noticed with the AGGA/FAGGA, as per a poster here who's a client, they slowly ease the mandibular upswing, and perhaps there's good reason for that.

Another thing I tried today was spreading out my inversion therapy protocol through the day, my thinking is that it might help with getting more blood and nutrients to my skull. Another thing, right after pulling I'll hold a Mackenzie chin tuck with hands clasped behind my neck to hold the stretch, one time I produced a suture loosening sensation that way. I'm also yawning before pulling, not sure what this does exactly for me, but someone on this forum claimed it helps loosen sutures so I'm going to experiment with it in case it helps.

I do HIIT as well and I don't know how to assess the HGH effect or what it does for me there, but I do believe it's excellent for fat burning.

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Posted : 16/05/2018 2:34 am
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Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

BTW everyone, I have an additional thought on the monkey face. Today I did some face massage and I've ate more in the past few days. My face returned to normal. I also lost 2 pounds since I started this, so between that and consuming more calories seemingly coinciding with my monkey face going away, I'm thinking this can consume a lot of energy. So just a heads up, you might need to eat more than you're used to.

My suggestion is try to eat as much as you feel you need, especially with adding exercise I'd think your dietary needs might've increased, possibly by a lot, and could help with the light-headedness. I now suspect one of the reasons I developed a "monkey face" was that I wasn't eating enough, in fact I lost 2 lbs in 2 weeks which is extremely unusual for me, and I had fairly quick cessation of symptoms with some relaxing face massage and eating more. I'm also going to try napping with my daughter because I'm having the urge to. My guess is this face pulling requires a lot of energy, or for myself at least. I noticed with the AGGA/FAGGA, as per a poster here who's a client, they slowly ease the mandibular upswing, and perhaps there's good reason for that.

Eating more is definitely a good suggestion. I've always been a fan of the idea of eating as much as possible in order to boost your metabolism to the limit so that your body can more easily create changes. It seems most people these days do the opposite and eat as little as possible.

And it makes sense that doing this technique might require a lot of food support. I'm still not sure what you mean by monkey face but I am glad it is going away for you.

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Posted : 16/05/2018 4:26 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@Allixa I think it was a combo of being tired (probably from the face pulling and not eating enough to compensate, though I also breastfeed which requires a lot of energy as well) and neglecting my OMC gum routine which caused my nasal labial folds to return. The whole combo looked bad and aging, but I'd seen it before in my mewing journey and I kind of wonder if it also had to do with the maxilla coming forward and the mandible having not swung up with it yet, because at about one week in doing this my upper lip came more forward so it was uneven with my lower lip, and in the following days thereafter my lower lip became even with my upper lip again and my chin took on a stronger appearance. I believe my maxilla swung up then, and the mandible followed. My Mew indicator line score seems to hint at this, however I'm not pleased with how I took my measurement for this. Next time I'm measuring to a specific pore on my nose tip for more accuracy.

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Posted : 16/05/2018 5:36 pm
PaperBag
Trusted Member

@Allixa It probably was the HIIT. The kind I did was 30 seconds of sprinting and 90 seconds of walking x8. I'm slightly overweight (10 or so pounds) but was exercising 6 days a week for quite a while with no results because my diet is crap, though I just liked being active anyway. Probably going to just do HIIT now, and only twice a week to start.

@Greensmoothies Neither the yawning or forced chin tuck did anything for me, but that's only judging from a few attempts. I can imagine how they would help, though. By "monkey face", you're referring to pronounced nasolabial folds?

Eating more for this makes sense (I wonder if teens eating more while having ortho treatment would have caused faster changes, albeit possibly for the worse). I was exercising a lot more over the past 7 months while rarely adjusting calorie intake and never woke up starving until today, whether that's from HIIT, face pulling or is coincidental.

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Posted : 16/05/2018 5:49 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa
 
I haven't gotten the suture opening sounds yet, but I'm hoping they will begin once I get into a more consistent routine.
I am able to hear shifts from manual manipulation more frequently recently. I suspect that my palate expansion has loosened up some of the sutures.
Posted by: Apollo

I've noticed when I put the expander in recently that pressing up with my thumbs against the expander elicits a shifting sound in my right ear. This is the same ear that I sometimes hear cracks or pops when I apply the handheld massager against my maxilla. This is the side that is canted lower, so I hope that some of my asymmetry is correcting itself.

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Posted : 16/05/2018 9:29 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

That is a nice observation. So potentially, as the changes start to accumulate, the sutures will all have to begin adapting and loosening. At least that seems to be happening in your case. Do you think that expansion has gotten easier for you as you go, barring the setbacks you had?

Another interesting question too: I remember a post from way back where it was asked if yawning was a type of 'self NCR'. We dug up an old webpage where someone mentioned hearing clicks and pops in their skull every time they took a deep yawn. I wonder if you experience the same thing now when you yawn?

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Posted : 17/05/2018 3:03 am
PaperBag
Trusted Member

Speaking for myself, I finished a pulling session today (one every hour, it was probably the 7th or 8th of the day) and forced a few yawns. I had several small cracking noises around both of my ears, it sounded like tiny Pop Rocks going off. Before that, during the last few seconds of pulling, I had some good palate 'cracks' as well.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 3:42 am
krollic
Estimable Member

Holy [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated], I am very excited at the moment! I started attempting this method since yesterday morning: This is the only time I've felt forces via pressure radiating across my face/head along with cracks and popping! I guess I must have a much denser skull than you guys  🤪  

Every 60-90 minutes or so (nothing precisely timed) I would apply strong pressure throughout my mouth w/ my thumbs. Today I measured my IMW and I am CERTAIN beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has increased by about 0.5-0.6mm since I began i.e less than a day! I've been pushing on the back of my thumbs w/ my other thumb to up the force substantially. 

I am focusing on applying the forces everywhere I can and I have a checklist for it:

Pushing "The tip" area upwards and forwards

Pushing the Alveolar Ridge/teeth sideways. You can't get much force here other than outwards. I try and get the top of my front teeth as well 

Pushing the Front Ridges forwards, upwards and outwards. I feel like I can push pretty damn hard here, making sure to follow this curved area as far back as I can towards my back teeth.

Finally the palate, Can't do much except pushing hard against it i.e upwards I think. Trying to ensure I cover as much of this large area as I can. I've noticed the top of my hard palate has a slight bump in the middle (infront of my soft palate) that I'm trying to flatten out. Can anyone tell me what this thing is?

Cheers

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Posted : 17/05/2018 5:22 am
Arkey liked
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: krollic

Holy [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated], I am very excited at the moment! I started attempting this method since yesterday morning: This is the only time I've felt forces via pressure radiating across my face/head along with cracks and popping! I guess I must have a much denser skull than you guys  🤪  

Every 60-90 minutes or so (nothing precisely timed) I would apply strong pressure throughout my mouth w/ my thumbs. Today I measured my IMW and I am CERTAIN beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has increased by about 0.5-0.6mm since I began i.e less than a day! I've been pushing on the back of my thumbs w/ my other thumb to up the force substantially. 

I am focusing on applying the forces everywhere I can and I have a checklist for it:

Pushing "The tip" area upwards and forwards

Pushing the Alveolar Ridge/teeth sideways. You can't get much force here other than outwards. I try and get the top of my front teeth as well 

Pushing the Front Ridges forwards, upwards and outwards. I feel like I can push pretty damn hard here, making sure to follow this curved area as far back as I can towards my back teeth.

Finally the palate, Can't do much except pushing hard against it i.e upwards I think. Trying to ensure I cover as much of this large area as I can. I've noticed the top of my hard palate has a slight bump in the middle (infront of my soft palate) that I'm trying to flatten out. Can anyone tell me what this thing is?

Cheers

That bump sounds like a Torus Palatinus. Search that term to learn more. It usually means that the person did some clenching or had bruxism at some point. If you have a Torus most medical professionals would say that expansion is impossible. It looks like you are proving them wrong if your measurements are accurate.

With that said, I'm excited by your changes too, but be careful. I'm not sure what will happen when hard forces are used. There is a potential for huge positive transformation but also for injury. I don't want you to hurt yourself. Keep in mind the disclaimers I gave in the first post as you go forward (especially the part about risk/liability).

If you decide to continue on definitely keep us updated on how quickly your changes happen and what side effects there are if any. Maybe you can be a trailblazer for people who are willing to push with more force.

Posted by: PaperBag

Speaking for myself, I finished a pulling session today (one every hour, it was probably the 7th or 8th of the day) and forced a few yawns. I had several small cracking noises around both of my ears, it sounded like tiny Pop Rocks going off. Before that, during the last few seconds of pulling, I had some good palate 'cracks' as well.

That's really interesting. Do you remember ever hearing sounds like that by your ears when you've yawned in the past? It definitely seems like those pops and cracks represent the sutures being more mobile and doing some moving/adjusting/growing.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 6:22 am
krollic
Estimable Member

Thanks for the info. This bump i have is very minor; perhaps only 2mm in height and not really noticeable with a camera and thankfully doesn't look anything like some of the google image search results! I don't teeth grind but I clench perhaps a bit too much so I'll try and taper that back. cheers

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Posted : 17/05/2018 6:49 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa

That is a nice observation. So potentially, as the changes start to accumulate, the sutures will all have to begin adapting and loosening. At least that seems to be happening in your case. Do you think that expansion has gotten easier for you as you go, barring the setbacks you had?

Another interesting question too: I remember a post from way back where it was asked if yawning was a type of 'self NCR'. We dug up an old webpage where someone mentioned hearing clicks and pops in their skull every time they took a deep yawn. I wonder if you experience the same thing now when you yawn?

No, I think it has gotten harder to advance the expander, and I tend to be waiting more days between screw turns now than I was at the beginning. I think part of this is just that the expander doesn't fit as well as the shape of the palate changes. However, I do think there is increased mobility, at least on that right side where I hear the shifts. This might also mean that it is easier for the expansion to relapse without the device in place. Regarding the yawning motion, I only hear the shift in my right ear when I yawn deeply, engaging what I think is the tensor veli palatini muscle to lift the soft palate (  https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/lower-wings-of-sphenoid-bone-now-visible-on-the-roof-of-my-mouth/#post-1816 ).

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Posted : 17/05/2018 2:18 pm
test151515
Active Member

@Allixa

Thanks for sharing. What is the name of the community you are referring to? The one that you noticed talked about this method.

Also, In what context where they using this method?

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Posted : 17/05/2018 2:23 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa
 
That bump sounds like a Torus Palatinus. Search that term to learn more. It usually means that the person did some clenching or had bruxism at some point. If you have a Torus most medical professionals would say that expansion is impossible. It looks like you are proving them wrong if your measurements are accurate.
Hi @allixa, can you refer me to any sources with this conventional wisdom that palatal tori impede expansion? Thanks!
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Posted : 17/05/2018 3:10 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: krollic

Holy [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated], I am very excited at the moment! I started attempting this method since yesterday morning: This is the only time I've felt forces via pressure radiating across my face/head along with cracks and popping! I guess I must have a much denser skull than you guys  🤪  

Every 60-90 minutes or so (nothing precisely timed) I would apply strong pressure throughout my mouth w/ my thumbs. Today I measured my IMW and I am CERTAIN beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has increased by about 0.5-0.6mm since I began i.e less than a day! I've been pushing on the back of my thumbs w/ my other thumb to up the force substantially. 

I am focusing on applying the forces everywhere I can and I have a checklist for it:

Pushing "The tip" area upwards and forwards

Pushing the Alveolar Ridge/teeth sideways. You can't get much force here other than outwards. I try and get the top of my front teeth as well 

Pushing the Front Ridges forwards, upwards and outwards. I feel like I can push pretty damn hard here, making sure to follow this curved area as far back as I can towards my back teeth.

Finally the palate, Can't do much except pushing hard against it i.e upwards I think. Trying to ensure I cover as much of this large area as I can. I've noticed the top of my hard palate has a slight bump in the middle (infront of my soft palate) that I'm trying to flatten out. Can anyone tell me what this thing is?

Cheers

That seems like a ton of growth in such a short amount of time, never heard of anything like this... AGGA folks on this site were saying 1-2mm per month IIRC. I got 1mm in 2 weeks doing this and I'm 35. I experienced a bit of a crash around the 1-2 week mark, which I believe was mainly because I wasn't supporting my efforts with enough caloric intake. May I ask how old are you? I'm currently eating quite a bit more and I'm even having a nap during the day with my toddler. I find this method quite taxing and am doing my best to support my expansion efforts with the naps and eating more, but I'm also an older breastfeeding mother so perhaps I'm going to be more easily fatigued than most people here. If at any time your face appears fatigued or something similar, eating more could help, as this is what helped me (and face massage).

I haven't encountered a method of inducing these suture separation sounds nearly as effective as this one before, it's quite remarkable and I feel excited as well. I'm curious about your methods, but I don't exactly follow. You are placing one thumb over the other, but how are the thumbs placed on the palate? Also just a heads up in case you don't know, from what I've heard, it's the back teeth that can best sustain these forces. I wonder if the teeth could tip outwards with these forces applied in places other than on the molars.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 4:30 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: Allixa
 
That bump sounds like a Torus Palatinus. Search that term to learn more. It usually means that the person did some clenching or had bruxism at some point. If you have a Torus most medical professionals would say that expansion is impossible. It looks like you are proving them wrong if your measurements are accurate.
Hi @allixa, can you refer me to any sources with this conventional wisdom that palatal tori impede expansion? Thanks!

Check this out, this is where I got the idea:

https://books.google.com/books?id=dCZqAAAAMAAJ&dq=tori+removal+for+expansion&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22because+they+are+composed+of%22

Can't find a way to read the book online though.

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Posted : 17/05/2018 10:57 pm
Apollo liked
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

my goal is to have some upward maxilla movement to get my lower jaw forward or somehow get it to go forward how should i use this method to achieve that?

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Posted : 18/05/2018 2:34 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Hello @greensmoothies,

Your story of progress is really unique and interesting. Can I suggest that you start a separate topic to describe your 5 year experience. I think allot of people would benefit to lean how much you achieved and how much time it took. That way we can add the topic to the important topics sticky.

Thanks

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 18/05/2018 9:16 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa

With a starting intermolar width of 31.8mm measured using a digital caliper,

How are you able to measure with a caliper inside your mouth, is it really small unite?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 18/05/2018 9:20 am
krollic
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies

23. I start with my right thumb on the left side of my mouth (near back teeth) and in a kneading/pressing motion slowly move over to the right side, using my left thumb to push on my right thumb to give it extra force. Then I inverse thumb roles while starting on the opposite side and move over to the left. Hopefully I've explained that sufficiently. This is the only method I've used that is causing an immediate physiological response in me, in the forms of feeling pressure radiating and bones popping etc

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Posted : 18/05/2018 9:30 am
Usum liked
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@krollic do you also anchor your index finger to your forehead/hairline? I find it's really good for helping to ensure upwards force and also increases force. Not seeing much mention of this from others, but I believe it's important for stabilizing the force and helps to increase it, too (rather than just pressing your thumbs on the palate)

@Abdulrahman I will make a thread at a later date, but just a forewarning I'm quite bad with keeping measurements, pictures are all over the map too. Any contribution provided will be mostly toward discussing my experience, current routine and my ideas about mewing. I've noticed you seem to have knowledge in the area of how to take pics that can be analysed, maybe you could make a topic about how to do that to help people like me when you get a chance?

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Posted : 18/05/2018 7:46 pm
krollic
Estimable Member

yo, good idea. today I've been testing out another method: Sitting down at a desk, anchoring your elbows by putting them on the table and then you're able to pull your head towards your thumbs to get easy and reliable forces. can even do a mckenzie tuck at the same time lol

 

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Posted : 18/05/2018 8:08 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Also some hot tips:

- @Sclera cranial adjustment: I first tried this about a month ago, and doing this has produced some interesting effects. Some times, I'll feel a shifting sensation within the skull, and I wonder if that's the sphenoid moving. Today I tried this after pulling and produced many popping sounds. I think the intention is to do this exercise only once a day for 2 minutes. https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/another-way-to-adjust-the-sphenoid/#post-2492
- Vitamins: vitamin K2 is deemed important for mid face development https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/bone-remodelling-supplements/#post-3732 I currently take mk7 and mk4. Mk4 is said to be fast acting with a short life in the body, so might be best to take during the day. Take with food. H/t @Amber12
- Swallowing: AGGA folks dropped this tip, take smaller sips of your drinks so you do more swallowing. This should be a big help for me because I used to struggle so much with proper swallow form, unable to really get it for a few years, but now just this year its become easy. Makes me wonder if you need to have a certain intermolar width to be able to easily swallow properly rather than it being a "practice makes perfect" type thing (or it's a combination of the two) https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/fixed-anterior-growth-guidance-appliance-fagga-holy-grail-gonial-angle-change-maxilla-movement-forwards-and-palate-widening-without-surgery/paged/9/#post-3698

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Posted : 18/05/2018 8:08 pm
PaperBag
Trusted Member

Sitting at a table/desk is a good idea. I just tried it, there's definitely a lot more upward force possible when not having to hold your arms in the air like a tripod.

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Posted : 18/05/2018 8:38 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Posted by: Greensmoothies

@Abdulrahman I will make a thread at a later date, but just a forewarning I'm quite bad with keeping measurements, pictures are all over the map too. Any contribution provided will be mostly toward discussing my experience, current routine and my ideas about mewing. I've noticed you seem to have knowledge in the area of how to take pics that can be analysed, maybe you could make a topic about how to do that to help people like me when you get a chance?

Sure, I will make a thread about that as soon as I find a volunteer, but I can share few tips in advance including: 

Keep lighting consistent; try to take all the pictures in the same room using the same light source. For example, if you use a window light always take the pictures the same hour (like noon). This will keep the direction and color of the light consistent. 

Keep distance and height consistent; try to take the picture 1.5 to 2 meters away from the camera. This will eliminate perspective distortion. Take them at the same height, doing otherwise can distort the relative size of your facial features and make comparing them hard. 

Keep camera level with the ground if you can; this is a hard one but really helps when trying to judge forward head posture which is really the first step in analyzing any picture. Some phone cameras have an internal level feature, this can be really handy. 

If using your camera phone, it's ok if there is allot of empty space around you. Camera phones have very wide angle lenses. Just make sure the resolution of the phone is set highest. After you have taken the picture it can be cropped.

 

Later I will add this information to a new topic with few pictures and diagrams.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 19/05/2018 2:43 am
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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