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Fixed Anterior Growth Guidance Appliance (FAGGA) - Holy Grail? Gonial angle change, maxilla movement forwards and palate widening. Without surgery.  

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Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

@[Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]-please

That is such a bs comparison. Look at the before picture and see how the head was tilted away from the camera and down to make it more recessed.

In the after picture her face is the complete opposite, it's turned towards the camera (her left eyebrow is visible) and her head is tilted up making the jaws look more forward projecting.

Also the before was taken with harsher lights, poor color and no make up, while the after is the opposite. That's almost as bs comparison as it gets.

The one thing that you can clearly see is that her arch widened which exactly what the DNA is made for. That probably allowed her lower jaw to move forward a little.

The DNA is really just an acrylic expander. It's main advantage is that it allows the practitioner to treat basic crowding with minimal experience.

That's why dentist use it. They send patient's pictures, x-rays, and impression casts to the lab and in return get a ready made expander with monthly instruction on how to tweak it.

It's real simple and easy compared to placing braces and in the case the patient loses it they charge him for the whole thing instead of having to argue over why the brace came off.

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my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 25/03/2019 10:27 am
bensimpson
Active Member

What do you think is the most important thing to do to get forward AGGA growth?

Swallowing properly, tongue posture, tapping the pad, bolus chewing or other chewing exercises (tongue chewing), chin tucking? And so on?

 

I ask this because some of those actions actually inhibit other methods of getting AGGA growth. Long-term chewing exercises (or tongue chewing) cancels out having good tongue posture and tapping the pad.

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Posted : 28/03/2019 8:37 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: bensimpson

I ask this because some of those actions actually inhibit other methods of getting AGGA growth. Long-term chewing exercises (or tongue chewing) cancels out having good tongue posture and tapping the pad.

How did you come to this conclusion?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 29/03/2019 12:23 am
bensimpson
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

How did you come to this conclusion?

How can you do chewing exercises (or "tongue chewing") AND keep your tongue on the roof of your mouth (or the pad)?

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Posted : 29/03/2019 3:51 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: bensimpson

How can you do chewing exercises/"tongue chewing" AND keep your tongue on roof of mouth?

I see what you mean. Chewing food or gum and doing exercises with your tongue is only stopping you from posturing your tongue for a very short period of time. In return its strengthening your tongue to posture better. So chewing and exercising is a huge net positive on your tongue ability to posture correctly.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 29/03/2019 4:05 am
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

Myofunctional therapy was very important to me in figuring out people tongue position and swallowing. Also learning how to press on the Nance button evenly (initially when I would press it with my tonguet my masseters on the right fired more than in the left. Worked on that with myofunctional therapist) 

I've seen people say that's not good because you have your mouth open during it. Silly. The exercises are only done a couple times a day. We still need to talk, yawn, eat, live. That leaves many hours in the day where you can keep mouth closed and tongue up.

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Posted : 29/03/2019 11:34 am

I am in Controlled Arch Braces Now, and I have to do another round of AGGA. The Facial Beauty Institute said I need 6-7 mm of growth. We attained that. My cheek bones looked really good and I was feeling great! However, after a year in CAB, we have to retreat with AGGA again. I think I need another 4mm. Not enough tongue space at all and TMJ symptoms have returned. 

 

What I did wrong the last time:

I did not push my jaw forward at all. MISTAKE. 

I didn't do myo functional therapy and ensure my tongue was in the spot. (I thought I knew based off of enough videos. 

I didn't work on my posture enough. I did work on it, but I could have done more. 

I need a frenectomy for posterior tongue tie. 

 

If I do AGGA again, I will do all those things. My dentist/ortho also says she will grow me really slowly this time. The last time was super fast and I don't think we gave the bone enough time to harden. My only other option is surgery because I now have 1MM underbite. I am kind of taking a break right now to give my gums a rest.

 

Amanda Smith

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Posted : 07/04/2019 11:37 pm
BPlease
Active Member
Posted by: amandaangrypanda

I am in Controlled Arch Braces Now, and I have to do another round of AGGA. The Facial Beauty Institute said I need 6-7 mm of growth. We attained that. My cheek bones looked really good and I was feeling great! However, after a year in CAB, we have to retreat with AGGA again. I think I need another 4mm. Not enough tongue space at all and TMJ symptoms have returned. 

 

What I did wrong the last time:

I did not push my jaw forward at all. MISTAKE. 

I didn't do myo functional therapy and ensure my tongue was in the spot. (I thought I knew based off of enough videos. 

I didn't work on my posture enough. I did work on it, but I could have done more. 

I need a frenectomy for posterior tongue tie. 

 

If I do AGGA again, I will do all those things. My dentist/ortho also says she will grow me really slowly this time. The last time was super fast and I don't think we gave the bone enough time to harden. My only other option is surgery because I now have 1MM underbite. I am kind of taking a break right now to give my gums a rest.

 

Interesting, I am considering doing the AGGA treatment with a dentist from the facial beauty institute?
I have a few questions if you could anwser them.

1. what did you have to pay?
because i am going to have to fly out from sweden every 2-3 months i hope they are not that expensive.

2. how long did it take you to grow 6 - 7 mm and did it relapse because of the lack of myo functional therapy, bas posture and so on, or did it not relapse at all but the symptoms just came back?

3. What dentist does your treatment?

4. how much has your profile changed?

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Posted : 07/04/2019 11:53 pm

I grew a lot, and the growth stayed. The process took 6-7 months, and it was around 1mm per month. It just still wasn't enough room for my tongue. I think the Facial Beauty Institute didn't give me enough expansion/growth. There was so much flaring that it gave my tongue a false sense of room. When closed the bite is when I felt my tongue flipping out and TMJ symptoms returned. The CAB won't let you relapse much anyway. I am just still in need of a ton of room. We will know more after I get my tongue tie released. I think that is playing a role! I will keep you posted. 

As far as cost, I really don't remember. I started another treatment 3 years ago, and my dentist wanted me to switch to this. So, I did! I think maybe $4000-6000? I can't remember because it was a while ago, and we did it in chunks. 

Amanda Smith

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Posted : 08/04/2019 12:41 am
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

What do you mean you did not push your jaw forward? And didn't you have an orthotic first, didn't that bring your jaw forward? Did you have an underbite before agga, because if not doesn't that mean retraction?

Do you have worse posture now? People seem to think agga creates worse posture.

 

I agree tongue tie release and myofunctional therapy should be done in conjunction with agga, starting before and not after. One dentist told me if his patient isn't doing myofunctional therapy he will not grow them forward as much.

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Posted : 08/04/2019 9:11 am
BPlease
Active Member

ok thanks,
could you just clarify two things.
Does not flaring mean that the teeth stick out or tilt? is that a good thing or a bad thing and is it something that will get reversed in fase 2?
Does the 4000-6000$ cover both fases or just fase one?

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Posted : 08/04/2019 9:41 am
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

Flaring is not good, the controlled arch braces fix the flaring (tilting out). Every dentist has a different price. It can range from $7,000 to $15,000 total for agga with braces. Some charge for both in one, some charge for each separately.

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Posted : 08/04/2019 10:02 am

Since I am class 3, the people at the Facial Beauty Institute are now saying that 2 phases of AGGA is expected, or that you might have to grow more than expected. I was end to end before my orthotic. Then I had an underbite with the orthotic. Now I am back end to end after AGGA. We aren't sure what happened except I am class 3 and it is hard to predict outcomes???

Here is what FBI is now saying for class 3 -

***Special Note: Correction of Class III Skeletal patients with Neutral Growth Patterns presents certain "Special Considerations." Occasionally additional Maxillary Anterior Development is necessary to Prevent the Mandible from out growing or out remodeling the Maxilla and returning to Skeletal Class III relation. 

This is exactly what happened to me. I am back to neutral growth. It sucks! I do plan to get a tongue tie release and continue with myo as I am getting my AGGA at the end of May. 

Amanda Smith

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Posted : 08/04/2019 10:44 pm
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

If your mandible came out so far why do you think your tmj returned? And why do you think it was a mistake to not push your jaw out?

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Posted : 09/04/2019 9:27 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

Teeth flaring is a sign the treatment is not going well. Instead of the entire teeth moving forward equally from root to tip, the tip moves more.

I really do not think FAGGA is a very good solution for Class 3. It mainly works in class 2 and 4 that have a large anterior dent-alveolar recession (wide nasolabial angle). Class 3 patients often have the opposite, a narrow  nasolabial angle, FAGGA will mostly push alveolar bone forward and make it more narrow.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 09/04/2019 11:49 am
varbrah liked
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

Do you have any images that show what those look like? (wide nasolabial angle and narrow?)

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Posted : 09/04/2019 8:26 pm
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

I don't understand why you say it won't work for class 3. It does the same thing no matter what your top lip looks like. 

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Posted : 10/04/2019 9:36 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Lee

Do you have any images that show what those look like? (wide nasolabial angle and narrow?)

 

Yes I have a post that specifically details this: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/case-analysis-recessed-versus-forward-faces/

 

Posted by: Lee

I don't understand why you say it won't work for class 3. It does the same thing no matter what your top lip looks like.

The maxilla has two parts: skeletal and alveolar. Both can be recessed or forward or they can be in contrast. The cheek line shows the skeletal part position while the nasolabial angle shows the alveolar part. If your nasolabial angle is narrow (forward) but your cheek line is flat (recessed) you have maxillary recession in the skeletal part. FAGGA will not address the root cause of your problem it will only push your alveolar ridge more forward giving you an even narrower nasolabial angle. Just look at Ronald Ead as an example. He had a good nasolabial angle and end up with with lip protrusion while his flat cheek line did not improve. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 11/04/2019 9:50 am
AmiMM, scerif and varbrah liked
youdeservemusic
New Member

Hi

can you update us on your status?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/04/2019 1:28 am
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member
Posted by: youdeservemusic

Hi

can you update us on your status?

Who are you asking?

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Posted : 12/04/2019 8:04 am
scerif
Eminent Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

The maxilla has two parts: skeletal and alveolar. Both can be recessed or forward or they can be in contrast. The cheek line shows the skeletal part position while the nasolabial angle shows the alveolar part. If your nasolabial angle is narrow (forward) but your cheek line is flat (recessed) you have maxillary recession in the skeletal part. FAGGA will not address the root cause of your problem it will only push your alveolar ridge more forward giving you an even narrower nasolabial angle. Just look at Ronald Ead as an example. He had a good nasolabial angle and end up with with lip protrusion while his flat cheek line did not improve. 

@abdulrahman What is exactly cheek line? How do you measure it? 

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Posted : 12/04/2019 4:07 pm
Class III
Active Member
Posted by: amandaangrypanda

Since I am class 3, the people at the Facial Beauty Institute are now saying that 2 phases of AGGA is expected, or that you might have to grow more than expected. I was end to end before my orthotic. Then I had an underbite with the orthotic. Now I am back end to end after AGGA. We aren't sure what happened except I am class 3 and it is hard to predict outcomes???

Here is what FBI is now saying for class 3 -

***Special Note: Correction of Class III Skeletal patients with Neutral Growth Patterns presents certain "Special Considerations." Occasionally additional Maxillary Anterior Development is necessary to Prevent the Mandible from out growing or out remodeling the Maxilla and returning to Skeletal Class III relation. 

This is exactly what happened to me. I am back to neutral growth. It sucks! I do plan to get a tongue tie release and continue with myo as I am getting my AGGA at the end of May. 

This is the exact recommendation I got in my treatment plan recently (class III underbite correction) - was planning to raise some questions.

In my earlier posts, I queried whether AGGA can be used to grow the maxilla only. Ideally I'd like to leave my mandible/lower jaw alone.

I have not begun treatment yet, but am hoping to find out whether this is possible with the AGGA.

Please excuse my ignorance, what are "Neutral Growth Patterns" and may I ask what you mean by "end to end"?

 

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Posted : 17/04/2019 5:59 pm
Tom B
New Member
Posted by: Class III

may I ask what you mean by "end to end"?

 

I think she means an edge to edge bite which is when the front teeth hit. Like this...

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Posted : 18/04/2019 3:46 am
entelechy
Eminent Member

I very much appreciate how conscientious and informed this community is.   The computer graphics on the xrays are great as well.

A few observations: 

--could it be that what seems like skull change in the "color-morphed" xray is simply a result of holding the head in a different position?

--is it possible that the lip change noted in the RE photo can be from the fact that he is currently wearing the FAGGA appliance and the wires protrude the lips?

The reason I ask is because I have been wearing braces to torque out my teeth for the last five months.   I have noted the following changes.

---My lips changed immediately (and dramatically) because the  braces provide lip support.     So much so that I have considered keeping on the braces after the treatment is over.   It's about 4 mm of extra thickness.

-- my anterior teeth have already torqued out about 1-3 mm, and I also have gained 2 mm of spaces where my premolars were.  This has allowed my jaw relation to shift.    Since I have more room on the palate for the top of my tongue, my mandible is more forward.   I can show you before and after teeth photos, so you can see the movement before and after braces.   (Teeth so far are not flaring. )

-- I can also show you two xrays I have of myself before I started the braces:.  One with my mandible/maxillary in its original position.  The second, taken a minute after, wearing a splint that allows the mandible to move forward and the airway to open.  I would be curious if you see "skull changes" in these two xrays taken the same day similar to the ones observed in the FAGGA after xrays.   If  so, it would seem that FAGGA only influences the position of the head, by  allowing the mandible to have more space to come forward (the anterior teeth moved forward).  

I started with braces out of caution, but may try FAGGA at the end of my treatment for more forward growth.  My orthodontist said she worried that FAGGA, as I described it, could push the teeth out of the bone.  I am going to show her the before and after xrays from your site, to ask her opinion on what actually happened in those cases. 

Another observation:  according to my orthodontist, braces cause bone growth in the alvealor ridge, but much slower than FAGGA, and never 10 mm (3-4 mm maximum).      Where do these 10 mm come from? 

 

entelechy

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Posted : 20/04/2019 7:23 am
volturi
New Member

This video explains how this guy finds out about the best treatment for his misaligned jaw, TMJ and migraine and narrow palate. I think there are lots of good info to learn from this about his ALF and FAGGA experience.

He's from Canada. Anyone from Canada here?

This video explains how this guy finds out about the best treatment for his misaligned jaw, TMJ and migraine. I think there are lots of good info to learn from this about his ALF and FAGGA.

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Posted : 30/04/2019 9:58 pm
doncock
New Member

Is mewing benefitial while having the Fagga? I would think all the fixed wires would prohibit any palateexpansion through the tongue or am i getting this wrong

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Posted : 01/05/2019 4:15 pm
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

Proper tongue position is very important in FAGGA. Myofunctional therapy can only help. Palate expansion happens during control arch braces.

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Posted : 01/05/2019 5:27 pm
scerif
Eminent Member

@lee

Proper tongue position is very important in FAGGA. Myofunctional therapy can only help. Palate expansion happens during control arch braces.

What does the device FAGGA that tongue can't do? If I have a wide palate, why can't I get the same results with tongue as I would with FAGGA?

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Posted : 01/05/2019 6:30 pm
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

You think the tongue will open 13 mm of space in an adult?

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Posted : 02/05/2019 10:00 am
scerif
Eminent Member

@lee

ou think the tongue will open 13 mm of space in an adult?

I don't think anything, and I'm not even asking, my question is another. What does the device FAGGA that the tongue can't do to get that advancement?
Is it just because it takes more strength or is there something else?

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Posted : 02/05/2019 6:21 pm
entelechy
Eminent Member

This is a great question. The way FAGGA works varies from website to website. A few claim that it presses on "a nerve" that stimulates growth (which apparently could be true). Others claim it presses on the palate and directly stimulates bone growth. Whether a tongue could do the same thing in either instance is still a valid question. Is FAGGA more effective than the tongue because it gives constant pressure, and the tongue--at best--gives intermittent pressure? Does the FAGGA really press this "nerve"? My orthodontist saw the xrays in this site and said it was just teeth being moved--and to a dangerous degree that could mean the teeth are moving out of the bone (symptoms of which are gum bleeding and gum weakness). If only teeth are moving, then the answer would mean the FAGGA presses on the teeth more strongly than the tongue, and makes it move far more rapidly (10 mm in a year is radically fast movement). And then the next question is: is it safe?

Or does it truly stimulate this "nerve" and bone is growing---and the tongue cannot stimulate the nerve as profoundly and constantly?

It would be great to have a medical opinion.

entelechy

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Posted : 03/05/2019 3:45 pm
scerif liked
entelechy
Eminent Member

A question to all forum members: would anyone be willing to contribute to an article I am writing on the consequences of premolar extractions? The goal for this article is to get medical recognition for premolar extraction syndrome. Once medically recognized and taken seriously, it would mean that 1) reversal strategies such as FAGGA would be reimbursed by health insurance 2) medical research in appliances like FAGGA would ensue (currently no interest) 3) training upcoming orthodontists how to deal with the consequences of premolar extractions (widespead especially among those who has orthondontics in the 1970s-80s in the United States) would be part of orthodontic curricula; and hence the next generation of doctors would be in the "know", and one would not have such a hard time finding one who can do expansion treatment.

The inspiration for this article: I have done extensive research in orthodontic journals and books, and the current line of argument is that premolar extractions have NO consequences. Here below please see a clip from a handbook of orthodontics published in 2010. Only 5% of research articles on premolar extractions recognize that extractions can lead to TMJ, tongue reduction, neck pain, and airway space issues.

This denial explains why so few orthodontists and dentists take the issue seriously or have any idea what to do when faced with a patient "who goes against the handbook."

It also explains why reversal treatment is so expensive (rare) and not covered by health insurance.

What I would need for my article:

--descriptions of symptoms you have experienced due to extractions, and at what age you began noticing these symptoms (anonymous)

--photos (anonymous; eyes blinded) of profile and frontal face, to show changes to profile/lips/jaw-line.

I will be working on this article over the next six months. I am a journalist and professor, who had the extractions, and consequences.

Thanks much for any contribution.

entelechy

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Posted : 03/05/2019 5:00 pm
almighty
New Member
Posted by: entelechy

A question to all forum members: would anyone be willing to contribute to an article I am writing on the consequences of premolar extractions? The goal for this article is to get medical recognition for premolar extraction syndrome. Once medically recognized and taken seriously, it would mean that 1) reversal strategies such as FAGGA would be reimbursed by health insurance 2) medical research in appliances like FAGGA would ensue (currently no interest) 3) training upcoming orthodontists how to deal with the consequences of premolar extractions (widespead especially among those who has orthondontics in the 1970s-80s in the United States) would be part of orthodontic curricula; and hence the next generation of doctors would be in the "know", and one would not have such a hard time finding one who can do expansion treatment.

The inspiration for this article: I have done extensive research in orthodontic journals and books, and the current line of argument is that premolar extractions have NO consequences. Here below please see a clip from a handbook of orthodontics published in 2010. Only 5% of research articles on premolar extractions recognize that extractions can lead to TMJ, tongue reduction, neck pain, and airway space issues.

This denial explains why so few orthodontists and dentists take the issue seriously or have any idea what to do when faced with a patient "who goes against the handbook."

It also explains why reversal treatment is so expensive (rare) and not covered by health insurance.

What I would need for my article:

--descriptions of symptoms you have experienced due to extractions, and at what age you began noticing these symptoms (anonymous)

--photos (anonymous; eyes blinded) of profile and frontal face, to show changes to profile/lips/jaw-line.

I will be working on this article over the next six months. I am a journalist and professor, who had the extractions, and consequences.

Thanks much for any contribution.

Hi @entelechy

I underwent extraction orthodontics and I would be happy to help you. Matter of fact I'm going through FAGGA treatment right now. Feel free to contact me.

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Posted : 30/05/2019 7:06 pm
almighty
New Member

Hi everyone,

I am new to this blog and I have been particularly interested in the effectiveness of the FAGGA appliance. I have been researching about it with what I could find online for months now. My final thoughts about it is that it does create significant amounts of forward bone growth in the maxilla, which is really helpful to those who don't have enough space to even hold tongue correct tongue posture without suffocation. However, I believe it is limited as far as aesthetics go in the fact that even though it creates forward growth (creating a visible jawline), it will not affect much of your midface much because it does not give you the counter clockwise rotation of the entire maxilla that is responsible for the short, compact midface appearance with nice orbital support, high protruded cheekbones, etc. I think the appliance is can still be very helpful because it can solve many CFD issues like sleep apnea, neck pain, etc and most importantly creating room for correct tongue posture, which can later result in the rotation aka upward growth through bone remodeling that I mentioned that will create a nice midface and entire face really.

These are my thought out ideas so let me know what you guys think, if you agree or disagree. Does this describe your FAGGA experience so far? I personally started treatment recently so I will try to update my progress. In the mean time, I would like to keep this discussion rolling, there was a lot of good information on this forum and we should keep it going.

Thanks.

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Posted : 30/05/2019 7:31 pm
entelechy
Eminent Member

Thanks much for your response.   Could you please let me know how it is best to contact you?  Phone, Whatsapp?

I can be reached at entelechy2002-dynamic@yahoo.com

Looking forward to your input!

entelechy

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/05/2019 8:31 am
mscottxy
Active Member

@greensmoothie @allixa @jorge @abdulrahman @sam @apollo @amber12 @le_fort_or_bust @miandra @meltcel @admin

the catch is is doesn't work - at least not in adults and doesn't move the maxilla. How many intra-oral appliances do we need to see before this sinks in? If you're an adult (i.e. bones have stopped growing) and want to move the maxilla relative to the rest of the skull without surgery this technique is your best option i.e. with opposite forces against the cranium and chest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJvxACDPbh4

Sure there's that study on monkeys where they screwed some metal device onto their skull and upper arch and applied some feral amount of force, but who's going to do that? 

https://www.facepulling.com/proof-moving-the-maxilla-is-possible-in-adults/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0002941678900805

Here's Ronald Ead's effort.

https://1drv.ms/w/s!Aii3HbCmCzbogpFK9R6dO8Dhuc9faA  

I can't see any change in the maxilla, only tooth flaring, and possibly some flaring of the dental alveolar bone. Also, did he just stand up straighter in the 26week photo?  Yes, he will have gained oral space, with positive benefit for his airway due to the tongue having a little more room to sit forward. I achieved the same results using removable plates:

https://reversedental.wordpress.com/photos-year-3/

(I also wore a Delair facemask with 4x heavy elastics onto the plates at night for two years to try and prevent the molars from moving backwards. This didn't really work - you can see in my xray the molars are tipped backwards). 

All the photos in this thread show improved lip support, but like myself and Ronald, this clearly can occur through teeth flaring and without any maxillary movement. 

Holy Grail? Post age 25, non-surgical, before and after xrays showing maxillary protraction. Any method. 

 

 

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Posted : 31/05/2019 7:08 pm
Toushiro303
New Member

Has anybody on this forum used this device?

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Posted : 01/06/2019 12:41 pm
James
Eminent Member

@mscottxy, thanks for posting your results, and I agree that they look similar to what FAGGA would achieve.

It's true that FAGGA does not protract the maxilla—at least this is unproven. It remodels the alveolar process of the maxilla, and AGGA or Controlled Arch may change the inclination of the incisors. FAGGA proponents claim that it causes "3D" changes through the face, and that most of this change will occur after treatment. This may be technically true, but we don't have any long-term follow-up on finished cases showing significant changes above the dentoalveolar area.

FAGGA can still be a great option for people with poor lip support, wide nasolabial angle, retroclined incisors, and a retruded mandible. Large aesthetic and health changes are possible in the lower third of the face and the airway. Personally, 8mm from FAGGA really helped my profile and allowed my retruded mandible to come forward.

Additionally, your approach lacks the phase following FAGGA, Controlled Arch Braces. Controlled Arch moves the teeth into a rounder archform, and pulls the premolar and molars forward into the gaps. The gaps are not supposed to remain open.

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Posted : 02/06/2019 5:21 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: mscottxy

@greensmoothie @allixa @jorge @abdulrahman @sam @apollo @amber12 @le_fort_or_bust @miandra @meltcel @admin

the catch is is doesn't work - at least not in adults and doesn't move the maxilla. How many intra-oral appliances do we need to see before this sinks in? If you're an adult (i.e. bones have stopped growing) and want to move the maxilla relative to the rest of the skull without surgery this technique is your best option i.e. with opposite forces against the cranium and chest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJvxACDPbh4

Sure there's that study on monkeys where they screwed some metal device onto their skull and upper arch and applied some feral amount of force, but who's going to do that? 

https://www.facepulling.com/proof-moving-the-maxilla-is-possible-in-adults/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0002941678900805

Here's Ronald Ead's effort.

https://1drv.ms/w/s!Aii3HbCmCzbogpFK9R6dO8Dhuc9faA  

I can't see any change in the maxilla, only tooth flaring, and possibly some flaring of the dental alveolar bone. Also, did he just stand up straighter in the 26week photo?  Yes, he will have gained oral space, with positive benefit for his airway due to the tongue having a little more room to sit forward. I achieved the same results using removable plates:

https://reversedental.wordpress.com/photos-year-3/

(I also wore a Delair facemask with 4x heavy elastics onto the plates at night for two years to try and prevent the molars from moving backwards. This didn't really work - you can see in my xray the molars are tipped backwards). 

All the photos in this thread show improved lip support, but like myself and Ronald, this clearly can occur through teeth flaring and without any maxillary movement. 

Holy Grail? Post age 25, non-surgical, before and after xrays showing maxillary protraction. Any method. 

 

 

 So what you’re saying is, in your opinion, is that the only treatemebt that would work to non surgically advance the maxilla, and pretty much accomplish everything else we want to do here for audits,  is to undergo the treatment listed on the YouTube video you’ve cited on here? I’ve never heard of it before. Mind shedding some light for us about it??

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 5:48 pm
mscottxy
Active Member

FAGGA is a great device - they probably all are for certain purposes. It's the vagueness of the claims and lack of hard supporting evidence, combined with the desperation and hope of people wanting treatment which makes this space such a minefield. 

 

How do CABraces pull the molars forward? What do they pull against without retracting the front set? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 5:52 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: James

@mscottxy, thanks for posting your results, and I agree that they look similar to what FAGGA would achieve.

It's true that FAGGA does not protract the maxilla—at least this is unproven. It remodels the alveolar process of the maxilla, and AGGA or Controlled Arch may change the inclination of the incisors. FAGGA proponents claim that it causes "3D" changes through the face, and that most of this change will occur after treatment. This may be technically true, but we don't have any long-term follow-up on finished cases showing significant changes above the dentoalveolar area.

FAGGA can still be a great option for people with poor lip support, wide nasolabial angle, retroclined incisors, and a retruded mandible. Large aesthetic and health changes are possible in the lower third of the face and the airway. Personally, 8mm from FAGGA really helped my profile and allowed my retruded mandible to come forward.

Additionally, your approach lacks the phase following FAGGA, Controlled Arch Braces. Controlled Arch moves the teeth into a rounder archform, and pulls the premolar and molars forward into the gaps. The gaps are not supposed to remain open.

Thank you so much for your input, it has really helped me a ton. I now think I have a potential plan. I need to get in touch with a guy on here named Varbrah about this treatment protocol called MSE+FP. I was supposed to speak with him about it via PM long ago, however life got a bit crazy for me since then. Finally it’s calming down some! Anyways, MSE+FP is for maxilla advancement and expansion. It works great and you can catch the info on it on this forum, if you haven’t already.

 

So anyways, after reading your post on here, I’ve thought of something. Wouldn’t it be good to utilize both techniques for people like us with a retruded maxilla AND mandible?? Like for instance, we can undergo MSE+FM, go through that, the maxilla will expand and come forward, the mandible will auto rotate to an extent or whatnot in attempts to meet it, and then you can address the bottom palate via aleveolar ridge expansion with a Trombone or DNA device to widen the lower palate to match the top, and finally you can advance the mandible with a FAGGA appliance up until it meets the maxilla. Doing this seems like the best plan for class 2 patients while avoiding invanse surgery. For both airway and aesthetics.

 

Any thoughts on this?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 5:59 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: mscottxy

FAGGA is a great device - they probably all are for certain purposes. It's the vagueness of the claims and lack of hard supporting evidence, combined with the desperation and hope of people wanting treatment which makes this space such a minefield. 

 

How do CABraces pull the molars forward? What do they pull against without retracting the front set? 

Wait, im confused. You sent a video of some sort of treatment being done on a young female. Wasn’t that the device or treatment that you claimed is our best bet as adults in your opinion? Or did I read your post wrong?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 6:03 pm
mscottxy
Active Member

yes and sorry, my point was unclear. The child in the video is irrelevant - I was just showing the type of device that in my opinion is the best design for any age (i.e. that can create the most protractive forces). This doesn't mean it will actually move anything in adults. Again, facepuller.com set up his device using forehead and chest anchor points, but didn't come through with any results when I asked him. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 9:04 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: mscottxy

@greensmoothie @allixa @jorge @abdulrahman @sam @apollo @amber12 @le_fort_or_bust @miandra @meltcel @admin

I achieved the same results using removable plates:

https://reversedental.wordpress.com/photos-year-3/

(I also wore a Delair facemask with 4x heavy elastics onto the plates at night for two years to try and prevent the molars from moving backwards. This didn't really work - you can see in my xray the molars are tipped backwards). 

All the photos in this thread show improved lip support, but like myself and Ronald, this clearly can occur through teeth flaring and without any maxillary movement. 

Holy Grail? Post age 25, non-surgical, before and after xrays showing maxillary protraction. Any method. 

Your device pushed your back teeth backward more than it pushed your front teeth forward. With FAGGA that would be considered a total failure of the treatment. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 12:51 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

@TGW

Some forum members have taken their fight from the MSE topic to this FAGGA topic.

Can I ask you to kindly remove the following posts: 

#post-21039
-
#post-21041
#post-21042
#post-21043
#post-21044
#post-21045
#post-21046

Thanks

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 12:57 am
James
Eminent Member
Posted by: mscottxy

FAGGA is a great device - they probably all are for certain purposes. It's the vagueness of the claims and lack of hard supporting evidence, combined with the desperation and hope of people wanting treatment which makes this space such a minefield. 

 

How do CABraces pull the molars forward? What do they pull against without retracting the front set? 

There is a lot of discussion of FAGGA in the thread, but less discussion of Controlled Arch Braces, the phase following FAGGA in treatment. Controlled Arch Braces pull the premolars and molars forward by using a buccal wire, which normal braces don't have. This allows protraction of those teeth, since they are moved one-by-one. Here is an article showing photos of the sequence of FAGGA followed by Controlled Arch. The incisors may be tipped forward if they are retroclined (mine are), which can create even more tongue-space. Controlled Arch also includes a FRLA appliance for transverse expansion. Some providers use an ALF or other transverse appliance instead of the FRLA.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 1:18 pm
James
Eminent Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: mscottxy

@greensmoothie @allixa @jorge @abdulrahman @sam @apollo @amber12 @le_fort_or_bust @miandra @meltcel @admin

I achieved the same results using removable plates:

https://reversedental.wordpress.com/photos-year-3/

(I also wore a Delair facemask with 4x heavy elastics onto the plates at night for two years to try and prevent the molars from moving backwards. This didn't really work - you can see in my xray the molars are tipped backwards). 

All the photos in this thread show improved lip support, but like myself and Ronald, this clearly can occur through teeth flaring and without any maxillary movement. 

Holy Grail? Post age 25, non-surgical, before and after xrays showing maxillary protraction. Any method. 

Your device pushed your back teeth backward more than it pushed your front teeth forward. With FAGGA that would be considered a total failure of the treatment. 

What makes you say this? His nasolabial angle has improved which implies some forward movement.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 1:20 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: James

What makes you say this? His nasolabial angle has improved which implies some forward movement.

Yes I am just saying he had more backward movement than forward. Look at the pictures of his dental arch especially the last one. Notice how much his first molars are tipping back? That is a sign that he was applying allot of backward pressure on them and as result they moved back.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 3:08 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

@abdulrahman

Posts removed, thanks for the heads-up

I've addressed this argument (and its end) in the other thread

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 3:31 pm
Pedro_Napoleon
New Member

I have been mewing for 3-weeks now and would like for my tongue to fit in my palate. 

 

My reason for mewing and the question is for a better aesthetic, I have TMJ and I think I have sleep apnea.

 

Should I widen the palate first and later do the FAGGA or would it be better to undergo FAGGA and widen the palate later?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/06/2019 12:39 am
davewheeler87
Active Member
Posted by: Pedro_Napoleon

I have been mewing for 3-weeks now and would like for my tongue to fit in my palate. 

 

My reason for mewing and the question is for a better aesthetic, I have TMJ and I think I have sleep apnea.

 

Should I widen the palate first and later do the FAGGA or would it be better to undergo FAGGA and widen the palate later?

You're not mewing if your tongue doesn't fit in the palate. Don't widen first. Go FAGGA then widen... less phases this way.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2019 11:39 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: davewheeler87
Posted by: Pedro_Napoleon

I have been mewing for 3-weeks now and would like for my tongue to fit in my palate. 

 

My reason for mewing and the question is for a better aesthetic, I have TMJ and I think I have sleep apnea.

 

Should I widen the palate first and later do the FAGGA or would it be better to undergo FAGGA and widen the palate later?

You're not mewing if your tongue doesn't fit in the palate. Don't widen first. Go FAGGA then widen... less phases this way.

Humm..

Honestly I'd make room for the tongue first and FAgga after if necessary.

Its a physiological appliance that works mainly using tongue force. Think it makes more sense this way and actually will probably help FAgga work better and faster. Not necessarily an MSE but something that would allow more room for the tongue at the molar level. 

Especially in young people I'd go with mostly transverse expansion first no doubt, it probably even gets rid of having to use fagga at all.

I think the backwards expansion we see in a lot of people that did fagga is a result of transverse deficiency. Improper swallowing puts backwards and inwards pressure on the back teeth. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2019 12:49 pm
Pedro_Napoleon
New Member
Posted by: Roflcopters
Posted by: davewheeler871
Posted by: Pedro_Napoleon

I have been mewing for 3-weeks now and would like for my tongue to fit in my palate. 

 

My reason for mewing and the question is for a better aesthetic, I have TMJ and I think I have sleep apnea.

 

Should I widen the palate first and later do the FAGGA or would it be better to undergo FAGGA and widen the palate later?

You're not mewing if your tongue doesn't fit in the palate. Don't widen first. Go FAGGA then widen... less phases this way.

Humm..

Honestly I'd make room for the tongue first and FAgga after if necessary.

Its a physiological appliance that works mainly using tongue force. Think it makes more sense this way and actually will probably help FAgga work better and faster. Not necessarily an MSE but something that would allow more room for the tongue at the molar level. 

Especially in young people I'd go with mostly transverse expansion first no doubt, it probably even gets rid of having to use fagga at all.

I think the backwards expansion we see in a lot of people that did fagga is a result of transverse deficiency. Improper swallowing puts backwards and inwards pressure on the back teeth. 

@davewheeler871
It fits somewhat I guess. When I put the back of my tongue in my palate I can't breathe. Over the 3 weeks I have made my tongue strong enough to relax just enough to breath in n out.

 

@Roflcopters

What exactly is an "MSE" and if you know any, what appliance would you recommend for the transverse expansion?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2019 6:08 pm
davewheeler87
Active Member
Posted by: Pedro_Napoleon
Posted by: Roflcopters
Posted by: davewheeler871
Posted by: Pedro_Napoleon

I have been mewing for 3-weeks now and would like for my tongue to fit in my palate. 

 

My reason for mewing and the question is for a better aesthetic, I have TMJ and I think I have sleep apnea.

 

Should I widen the palate first and later do the FAGGA or would it be better to undergo FAGGA and widen the palate later?

You're not mewing if your tongue doesn't fit in the palate. Don't widen first. Go FAGGA then widen... less phases this way.

Humm..

Honestly I'd make room for the tongue first and FAgga after if necessary.

Its a physiological appliance that works mainly using tongue force. Think it makes more sense this way and actually will probably help FAgga work better and faster. Not necessarily an MSE but something that would allow more room for the tongue at the molar level. 

Especially in young people I'd go with mostly transverse expansion first no doubt, it probably even gets rid of having to use fagga at all.

I think the backwards expansion we see in a lot of people that did fagga is a result of transverse deficiency. Improper swallowing puts backwards and inwards pressure on the back teeth. 

@davewheeler871
It fits somewhat I guess. When I put the back of my tongue in my palate I can't breathe. Over the 3 weeks I have made my tongue strong enough to relax just enough to breath in n out.

 

@Roflcopters

What exactly is an "MSE" and if you know any, what appliance would you recommend for the transverse expansion?

Listen, FAGGA fixes people who are mid face deficient. Being mid face deficient and having a narrow palate go and in hand. If when your tongue is up in the palate and it is choking you, that means you need forward growth which FAGGA does, very well. MSE does not promote and forward growth, so if you are choking on ur tongue now it will be after MSE. If you only widen that makes no different as you will still be choking on your tongue. If you decide to widen first then FAGGA that just doesn't make sense because if u widen Using MSE lets say, you are going to develop a gap that will need to be closed, then you close the gap then and go into FAGGA, well guess what, more gaps that will need to be closed. What I am doing is FAGGA, then controlled arch closes the fagga gaps and widens the arch at the same time. Also people forget about the bottom jaw .... MSE does zero for the bottom jaw. Fagga brings the bottom jaw forward to its natural position. I am in FAGGA now and the progress has been amazing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2019 8:33 pm
James liked
Pedro_Napoleon
New Member

Listen, FAGGA fixes people who are mid face deficient. Being mid face deficient and having a narrow palate go and in hand. If when your tongue is up in the palate and it is choking you, that means you need forward growth which FAGGA does, very well. MSE does not promote and forward growth, so if you are choking on ur tongue now it will be after MSE. If you only widen that makes no different as you will still be choking on your tongue. If you decide to widen first then FAGGA that just doesn't make sense because if u widen Using MSE lets say, you are going to develop a gap that will need to be closed, then you close the gap then and go into FAGGA, well guess what, more gaps that will need to be closed. What I am doing is FAGGA, then controlled arch closes the fagga gaps and widens the arch at the same time. Also people forget about the bottom jaw .... MSE does zero for the bottom jaw. Fagga brings the bottom jaw forward to its natural position. I am in FAGGA now and the progress has been amazing.

 

Are you in the US and if so do you have to travel for your FAGGA checkups or do you do so locally?
I understand what you are saying about the forward growth, on my own research there have been people who said that widening their palate helped with putting the tongue on the palate which is why I thought any of the 2 would help.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/06/2019 9:14 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: davewheeler87
Posted by: Pedro_Napoleon
Posted by: Roflcopters
Posted by: davewheeler871
Posted by: Pedro_Napoleon

I have been mewing for 3-weeks now and would like for my tongue to fit in my palate. 

 

My reason for mewing and the question is for a better aesthetic, I have TMJ and I think I have sleep apnea.

 

Should I widen the palate first and later do the FAGGA or would it be better to undergo FAGGA and widen the palate later?

You're not mewing if your tongue doesn't fit in the palate. Don't widen first. Go FAGGA then widen... less phases this way.

Humm..

Honestly I'd make room for the tongue first and FAgga after if necessary.

Its a physiological appliance that works mainly using tongue force. Think it makes more sense this way and actually will probably help FAgga work better and faster. Not necessarily an MSE but something that would allow more room for the tongue at the molar level. 

Especially in young people I'd go with mostly transverse expansion first no doubt, it probably even gets rid of having to use fagga at all.

I think the backwards expansion we see in a lot of people that did fagga is a result of transverse deficiency. Improper swallowing puts backwards and inwards pressure on the back teeth. 

@davewheeler871
It fits somewhat I guess. When I put the back of my tongue in my palate I can't breathe. Over the 3 weeks I have made my tongue strong enough to relax just enough to breath in n out.

 

@Roflcopters

What exactly is an "MSE" and if you know any, what appliance would you recommend for the transverse expansion?

Listen, FAGGA fixes people who are mid face deficient. Being mid face deficient and having a narrow palate go and in hand. If when your tongue is up in the palate and it is choking you, that means you need forward growth which FAGGA does, very well. MSE does not promote and forward growth, so if you are choking on ur tongue now it will be after MSE. If you only widen that makes no different as you will still be choking on your tongue. If you decide to widen first then FAGGA that just doesn't make sense because if u widen Using MSE lets say, you are going to develop a gap that will need to be closed, then you close the gap then and go into FAGGA, well guess what, more gaps that will need to be closed. What I am doing is FAGGA, then controlled arch closes the fagga gaps and widens the arch at the same time. Also people forget about the bottom jaw .... MSE does zero for the bottom jaw. Fagga brings the bottom jaw forward to its natural position. I am in FAGGA now and the progress has been amazing.

Actually I see FAGGA as more of a lower third treatment then a midface treatment. Tho it's all hand in hand. Again it depends on what his problem is. 

I kinda projected myself and what I need in him. 

Anyways, think what I said remains logicalt. The MSE example as for the transverse expansion probably wasn't the right example but I didn't bother edit the comment, I get that.

Everyone would benefit from a few mm of transverse expansion before FAGGA. Your tongue isn't a piece of wood, transverse expansion would help you a lot with oral posture, probably more than sagittal expansion if you have a high vaulted palate. 

Its an appliance that works with tongue engagement, most likely you'll get better results later on with FAGGA if say you go for Alf first.

I'd even say that if it's an easy case and if he's young, Alf could probably make him skip FAgga and be enough to treat it. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 5:45 am
Pedro_Napoleon
New Member

I wish I was younger or to have good oral posture from the beginning but I am 23. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 1:19 pm
davewheeler87
Active Member

"Its an appliance that works with tongue engagement, most likely you'll get better results later on with FAGGA if say you go for Alf first."

Where is this information coming from? who has done alf then fagga?. There are countless people who are having tremendous success with fagga 1st then expansion.In all of this you're  forgetting about the bite. Anyways, do what u will but please do extensive research before you make a decision. And remember, this place is basically un-qualified people giving their opinions .... me included.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/06/2019 1:26 pm
Pedro_Napoleon
New Member
Posted by: davewheeler87

"Its an appliance that works with tongue engagement, most likely you'll get better results later on with FAGGA if say you go for Alf first."

Where is this information coming from? who has done alf then fagga?. There are countless people who are having tremendous success with fagga 1st then expansion.In all of this you're  forgetting about the bite. Anyways, do what u will but please do extensive research before you make a decision. And remember, this place is basically un-qualified people giving their opinions .... me included.

thanks for the honesty, I really appreciate that!

 

I just figured out I have a crossbite in my left side where my mandible is a little bigger than my maxilla. Funny enough the left side of my face looks better than my right side meaning my lower and upper jaw are definitely under-developed. 

 

But my TMJ is on both sides of my face which means maybe the TMJ root cause is a mandible compression and only forward growth would deal with the TMJ.

I am going to schedule an appointment with my nearest FAGGA orthodontist dentist which is about 3 hours away from where I live.

 

My question is, is there an appliance that gives both forward and wide expansion at the same time? *note* wide regarding the maxilla and mandible.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/06/2019 9:24 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Pedro_Napoleon

My question is, is there an appliance that gives both forward and wide expansion at the same time? *note* wide regarding the maxilla and mandible.

Sadly no, and note that all appliances such as Fagga, Alf, and DNA are mainly expanding your alveolar bone. Regarding your idea of expanding transverse then sagittal, normally its done the other way around with Fagga to stream line the process but you could still do it. It just that it would make your treatment time longer. I can see benefit to it in some situation though.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/06/2019 11:05 am
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