Notifications
Clear all

NOTICE:

DO NOT ATTEMPT TREATMENT WITHOUT LICENCED MEDICAL CONSULTATION AND SUPERVISION

This is a public discussion forum. The owners, staff, and users of this website are not engaged in rendering professional services to the individual reader. Do not use the content of this website as an alternative to personal examination and advice from licenced healthcare providers. Do not begin, delay, or discontinue treatments and/or exercises without licenced medical supervision.

Fixed Anterior Growth Guidance Appliance (FAGGA) - Holy Grail? Gonial angle change, maxilla movement forwards and palate widening. Without surgery.

Page 2 / 12
Lee
 Lee
Eminent Member

Those doing the AGGA, through LVI anyway, are taught to work on their forward head posture at the same time, and tongue position; many also go to upper cervical chiros or get cranialsacral adjustments. One dentist told me if they aren't at least fixing their tongue posture, he won't grow out the maxilla as far. An orthotic is usually done before the AGGA to find the forward position. Then they either have an orthotic 24/7 or bite plates with the AGGA to allow the mandible to come forward. Any posterior open bite would be fixed with the braces. Or, if they were doing implants in the spaces rather than braces, they could have inlays/onlays.

Here's a case a dentist shared with me. I don't know the age of patient but he said he did not grow out too far forward on this one.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/04/2018 9:38 pm
Kcirtap15 liked
Allixa
Estimable Member

 

https://the-great-work.org/wp-content/uploads/wpforo/default_attachments/1523063165-TheGreatWork.webm   

This gif is hugely misleading. It looks like forward growth but it's an optical illusion caused by the forward head posture in the after photo. You have to keep the skull in the same place when you make a gif like this. Look at how the top of the skull and the spine move as the gif progresses. Can you make another one where you keep the skull in the exact same place and in the same rotation like the image below:

Great picture, thanks for posting it. I find it very interesting that the skull is actually further forward in the BEFORE photo (the yellow area near the nose). This makes me think that the FAGGA might actually push the skull backwards in order to push the front teeth forwards (equal and opposite reactions like I said). So perhaps, and this is just a theory for now, and one case doesn't prove a point, perhaps the FAGGA can even make CFD worse.

Like I said to everyone before, be careful with this device and do research before getting into it.

To @amber12, measuring the jaw distance from the back of the skull isn't a great way to check for changes because the teeth were flared in this case which will definitely allow the jaw to come forward, but it doesn't mean that there's been true skull growth. Anyone can flare the teeth in order to let the jaw come forward. Also his mouth is open in the after which lets the jaw come forward some too.

The real way to check for skull growth is to make a picture like above and see if the actual skull itself is bigger... and in this case it is smaller for some reason which is not what I expected at all.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/04/2018 9:49 pm
Miandra
Active Member
Posted by: Allixa

Great picture, thanks for posting it. I find it very interesting that the skull is actually further forward in the BEFORE photo (the yellow area near the nose). This makes me think that the FAGGA might actually push the skull backwards in order to push the front teeth forwards (equal and opposite reactions like I said). So perhaps, and this is just a theory for now, and one case doesn't prove a point, perhaps the FAGGA can even make CFD worse.

Like I said to everyone before, be careful with this device and do research before getting into it.

To @amber12, measuring the jaw distance from the back of the skull isn't a great way to check for changes because the teeth were flared in this case which will definitely allow the jaw to come forward, but it doesn't mean that there's been true skull growth. Anyone can flare the teeth in order to let the jaw come forward. Also his mouth is open in the after which lets the jaw come forward some too.

The real way to check for skull growth is to make a picture like above and see if the actual skull itself is bigger... and in this case it is smaller for some reason which is not what I expected at all.

I agree one should research carefully. But can we properly judge AGGA before the whole treatment has been finished?
If we could get access to some official before and afters with the whole treatment done that would be sweet.

Second thing, many people might want this appliance just for a better side profile? I think that is a legit concern for a lot of people.

 

 Managed to find another scan as well, but once again this one seems to be unfinished as well :/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/04/2018 10:03 pm
Gifferthegifgiver
New Member
Posted by: Allixa

 

https://the-great-work.org/wp-content/uploads/wpforo/default_attachments/1523063165-TheGreatWork.webm   

This gif is hugely misleading. It looks like forward growth but it's an optical illusion caused by the forward head posture in the after photo. You have to keep the skull in the same place when you make a gif like this. Look at how the top of the skull and the spine move as the gif progresses. Can you make another one where you keep the skull in the exact same place and in the same rotation like the image below:

 

 

Look at the features of the occipital bone. They are locked in place. That's the one spot where I overlayed the two images and faded them in/out.

The top of the skull and everything else is moving in relation to the back/base of the skull.  Look closely where this arrow is pointing (unrelated X-Ray)

  

On my GIF. Look at the bony patterns on the occiput. That entire bone is staying in 95% the same position while the rest of the skull is reforming around it and the spine is straightening. If it was a head posture change/rotation, the occipital bones would rotate just as much as the top of the head/maxilla/jaws. But they're barely moving, compared to everything else which is rotating up and forwards massively. 

 

 
ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/04/2018 10:59 pm
Makmama liked
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

How did this thread end up on the Orthotropics page on facebook??

https://www.facebook.com/orthotropics/posts/1871166859581136

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/04/2018 11:36 pm
TGW liked
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Lee

Those doing the AGGA, through LVI anyway, are taught to work on their forward head posture at the same time, and tongue position; many also go to upper cervical chiros or get cranialsacral adjustments. One dentist told me if they aren't at least fixing their tongue posture, he won't grow out the maxilla as far. An orthotic is usually done before the AGGA to find the forward position. Then they either have an orthotic 24/7 or bite plates with the AGGA to allow the mandible to come forward. Any posterior open bite would be fixed with the braces. Or, if they were doing implants in the spaces rather than braces, they could have inlays/onlays.

Here's a case a dentist shared with me. I don't know the age of patient but he said he did not grow out too far forward on this one.

Thanks @lee for sharing all this information, it was very valuable. I am glad to know they go through that whole process. This and additional information that became available better explain how the lower jaw catches up with the upper.

There is one thing that I have still not found mention of, inter-molar width. Is there a minimum required for this treatment to be successful? After all, expanding the arch forward will achieve nothing in the long run if it's not matched with sideways expansion. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 12:05 am
Allixa
Estimable Member

Look at the features of the occipital bone. They are locked in place. That's the one spot where I overlayed the two images and faded them in/out.

The top of the skull and everything else is moving in relation to the back/base of the skull.  Look closely where this arrow is pointing (unrelated X-Ray)

  

On my GIF. Look at the bony patterns on the occiput. That entire bone is staying in 95% the same position while the rest of the skull is reforming around it and the spine is straightening. If it was a head posture change/rotation, the occipital bones would rotate just as much as the top of the head/maxilla/jaws. But they're barely moving, compared to everything else which is rotating up and forwards massively. 

On my screen the occipital bone is moving too. I can clearly see the back of the skull rotate downwards. If you want to make an accurate gif you have to keep the top and the back of the skull in the same position for the before and after.

But anyways that's irrelevant because I just noticed something huge.

Look at the front of his skull right behind the nose. Check it out. As the skull moves 'forwards' the front of his skull actually gets PUSHED BACKWARDS. Look at it closely, it's so clear I can't believe I didn't see it before. It's getting squished. His skull gets pushed backwards along with the back teeth by the FAGGA device.

After seeing this my mind is made up. The FAGGA actually makes the skull and CFD worse due to the principle of equal and opposite forces. Pushing the front teeth forwards ends up forcing the rest of the skull backwards.

Also you guys realize that this isn't the same person right? Look at the earlobes.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 12:57 am
Miandra
Active Member
Posted by: Allixa

 

Also you guys realize that this isn't the same person right? Look at the earlobes.

Yeah I wanted to point this out, this picture is more of an example of good forward growth vs little forward growth...

Regarding your comment about FAGGA pushing the skull back, can we not assume this is normal procedure that happens until the back teeth gets pushed forward with the Controlled Arch Appliance?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 12:59 am
Allixa
Estimable Member
Posted by: Miandra

Yeah I wanted to point this out, this picture is more of an example of good forward growth vs little forward growth...

Regarding your comment about FAGGA pushing the skull back, can we not assume this is normal procedure that happens until the back teeth gets pushed forward with the Controlled Arch Appliance?

The issue with that is when you go to pull things forward, what are you pulling against? If you're pulling against the front teeth then you're just going to end up dragging those backwards again.

This is why people invented facepulling, because they realized that if you wanted to truly move the skull forward, you had to brace the forces somewhere outside of the skull in order to not create problems like this. But we haven't found a way to make facepulling work either (afaik) so I understand the desire to experiment with devices like the FAGGA. I actually want it to work and be real, and I hope evidence comes out that proves me wrong, but for now I have to say it doesn't look good.

Also I saw your post above where you mentioned having a better side profile. To the untrained eye that girl looks better in the after photo, but after spending years looking at these types of pictures she actually looks worse to me. Her lips are artificially puffy almost like she is wearing braces, and her cheeks have lost some fullness and her eyes have lost some support. Now we know why. Flared teeth + recessed skullbones. Yes her jaw came forward some but at what cost? She looks uncomfortable.

In the success stories thread towards the bottom of page 1 there is a before/after of someone who managed to make their profile better naturally just through mewing. I hope we find a way to do better than that but I don't think this device is it.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 1:18 am
Allixa
Estimable Member
Also does anyone know what this thing circled in red is?
In the gif below you can see it growing as if it's about to pierce his brain. Is that just an optical illusion? What is that?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 2:34 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

The AGGA appliance seems to exist in many different practices and goes by many different names. I sent out a shotgun of emails across many clinics inquiring about the FAGGA, and in return uncovered a variety of appliances which look virtually identical to it - but Google searches reveal virtually no information about them. The alternative names I have heard: CD Advancer, Anterior Remodeler, Keles Slider, and the Pre-Maxillary Advancement (PMA). 

Here's a picture I received of a PMA case after insertion:

 

These are clearly identical devices, and this one is also being used in an adult patient. From the dentist:

There is an appliance that we use call the PMA (pre-maxillary advancement) Appliance, it is a FAGGA. This appliance is newer design and very few practioners even know about it or use it. Remember the FAGGA and PMA appliances are used for specific problems. If you have that problem for the upper and/or lower jaw bones then this appliance can be used to help lengthen the upper, then the ALF family of appliances and braces help with the completion of the cases

More information on the PMA:

The P.M.A. appliance is designed to place pressure on the premaxilla advancing Point “A”, and in turn creating a skeletal overjet of the maxilla to the mandible. This orthopedic correction when compensating the skeletal Class three patient, and when treating a maxilla that is excessively retrognathic relative to the anterior cranial base (Factor #1 -4.0 degrees or greater).

 The P.M.A. appliance is always used in the permanent dentition. The Reverse Pull Head Gear is the appliance of choice for advancing the maxilla in the younger patient.

 The appliance is typically banded on the maxillary first bicuspids and first molars. It is bonded to the palatal surface of the four upper incisors and the cuspids. Niti open coil springs are loaded on the buccal drive bars using a lock to compress the springs. The springs are reloaded on a monthly basis until the desired skeletal over jet is obtained.

http://www.cfoo.com/appliances/pre-maxilla-appliance/

 

For anyone going in for a consultation, please ask about this variety of devices, and what it is the the LVI / FAGGA is doing differently to achieve midface/maxillary development. Although these other devices exist, and are being used by practitioners, they are all focused on the bite and make little mention of the general facial development/airway/midface. All of these device descriptions talk only about moving the premaxilla forward, the LVI/FAGGA are the only ones making claims about bone growth throughout the face and skull.

The only way that this makes sense to me is if they are somehow using the appliance differently than everyone else. I think we would all appreciate if someone going in for a consultation could bring up this question. 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 11:21 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

I see some small differences, mainly the wire behind the front teeth seems to be glued and the center wire running across the palate has a twist. Could this be because other labs make it with small changes and under a different name to avoid paying fees to the original appliance designer?

Edit my comment was about the pma

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 11:40 am
Sam
 Sam
Guest
Posted by: Lee

Those doing the AGGA, through LVI anyway, are taught to work on their forward head posture at the same time, and tongue position; many also go to upper cervical chiros or get cranialsacral adjustments. One dentist told me if they aren't at least fixing their tongue posture, he won't grow out the maxilla as far. An orthotic is usually done before the AGGA to find the forward position. Then they either have an orthotic 24/7 or bite plates with the AGGA to allow the mandible to come forward. Any posterior open bite would be fixed with the braces. Or, if they were doing implants in the spaces rather than braces, they could have inlays/onlays.

Here's a case a dentist shared with me. I don't know the age of patient but he said he did not grow out too far forward on this one.

I understand that Dr. Ann Maree Cole of Australia has helped shape this technology and is the leading practitioner. She teaches at LVI. The dentist I consulted with, showed me a before and after profile pic of one of her cases that he had on his phone. It was truly astonishing. I am not sure why she is not making her work public. This gives me pause. Would she not want to market this? If cases like these were advertised, I believe people would flock to have this done. Instead, it seems the docs hold results close to the vest. Could it be that it is unreliable in most cases and that just a few have success? Also, it seems to me by way of research, that this is a process that takes 2 to 3 years.  The FAGGA practitioners I have spoken with seem excited about the process, are in the process of doing it to themselves, but have not done any cases to completion. There is no measure of success from these dentists that I consulted. Again, I have a consultation next week. Please send questions to ask.

@Lee , would you be willing to reach out to Dr. Ann Maree Cole and have her send detailed evidence of sound results from multiple cases? Even better, if she could provide a patient that would give testimony, who has had this done. It would be a great marketing service to her and her students if she could oblige.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 12:31 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Miandra

 Managed to find another scan as well, but once again this one seems to be unfinished as well :/

This is a pediatric case from Dr. Buck's website. I didn't include it because it is a growing child, and they might have used the removable anterior growth guidance appliance rather than the fixed appliance used in adults.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 12:33 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Allixa

I find it very interesting that the skull is actually further forward in the BEFORE photo (the yellow area near the nose). This makes me think that the FAGGA might actually push the skull backwards in order to push the front teeth forwards (equal and opposite reactions like I said). So perhaps, and this is just a theory for now, and one case doesn't prove a point, perhaps the FAGGA can even make CFD worse.

I mentioned this when analyzing the black and white side-by-side "before and after" initially. 

Posted by: Apollo
The zygomatic arch also appears to be in roughly the same position, although its anterior border is less distinct in the "after" image.
I was speculating that this could just be an artifact of the exposure, since I figured it couldn't have actually caused the cheekbone to move backward, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way, the zygoma's anterior edge is more hazy in the "after" image, and I think we can say that the cheekbone didn't move forward.
ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 12:39 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Sam
Posted by: Lee

Those doing the AGGA, through LVI anyway, are taught to work on their forward head posture at the same time, and tongue position; many also go to upper cervical chiros or get cranialsacral adjustments. One dentist told me if they aren't at least fixing their tongue posture, he won't grow out the maxilla as far. An orthotic is usually done before the AGGA to find the forward position. Then they either have an orthotic 24/7 or bite plates with the AGGA to allow the mandible to come forward. Any posterior open bite would be fixed with the braces. Or, if they were doing implants in the spaces rather than braces, they could have inlays/onlays.

Here's a case a dentist shared with me. I don't know the age of patient but he said he did not grow out too far forward on this one.

I understand that Dr. Ann Maree Cole of Australia has helped shape this technology and is the leading practitioner. She teaches at LVI. The dentist I consulted with, showed me a before and after profile pic of one of her cases that he had on his phone. It was truly astonishing. I am not sure why she is not making her work public. This gives me pause. Would she not want to market this? If cases like these were advertised, I believe people would flock to have this done. Instead, it seems the docs hold results close to the vest. Could it be that it is unreliable in most cases and that just a few have success? Also, it seems to me by way of research, that this is a process that takes 2 to 3 years.  The FAGGA practitioners I have spoken with seem excited about the process, are in the process of doing it to themselves, but have not done any cases to completion. There is no measure of success from these dentists that I consulted. Again, I have a consultation next week. Please send questions to ask.

@Lee , would you be willing to reach out to Dr. Ann Maree Cole and have her send detailed evidence of sound results from multiple cases? Even better, if she could provide a patient that would give testimony, who has had this done. It would be a great marketing service to her and her students if she could oblige.

Definitely second that request for Lee. If I had to guess: Practitioners need permission to advertise with a persons case, and someone who has had radical changes might not want their "before" pictures spread around.  They can show before/afters in their clinic, they are not able to put them on the internet or spread the images around where they might be leaked. It's encouraging that you say that you have been shown an astonishing before/after.

Regarding questions: Could you please bring up what I talked about in my last post in this thread? There are multiple other appliances virtually identical to the FAGGA, but all of the people using these only talk about dental/alveolar/premaxillary movement. LVI dentists with the FAGGA are the only ones claiming full nasomaxillary remodelling - so what are they doing differently? 

Thanks Sam

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 12:46 pm
seii liked
Amber12
Active Member

Could someone do some measurements on this? Side by side images really don't work for me lol

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 8:40 pm
az_77 and Sam liked
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: TGW
Posted by: Sam
Posted by: Lee

Those doing the AGGA, through LVI anyway, are taught to work on their forward head posture at the same time, and tongue position; many also go to upper cervical chiros or get cranialsacral adjustments. One dentist told me if they aren't at least fixing their tongue posture, he won't grow out the maxilla as far. An orthotic is usually done before the AGGA to find the forward position. Then they either have an orthotic 24/7 or bite plates with the AGGA to allow the mandible to come forward. Any posterior open bite would be fixed with the braces. Or, if they were doing implants in the spaces rather than braces, they could have inlays/onlays.

Here's a case a dentist shared with me. I don't know the age of patient but he said he did not grow out too far forward on this one.

I understand that Dr. Ann Maree Cole of Australia has helped shape this technology and is the leading practitioner. She teaches at LVI. The dentist I consulted with, showed me a before and after profile pic of one of her cases that he had on his phone. It was truly astonishing. I am not sure why she is not making her work public. This gives me pause. Would she not want to market this? If cases like these were advertised, I believe people would flock to have this done. Instead, it seems the docs hold results close to the vest. Could it be that it is unreliable in most cases and that just a few have success? Also, it seems to me by way of research, that this is a process that takes 2 to 3 years.  The FAGGA practitioners I have spoken with seem excited about the process, are in the process of doing it to themselves, but have not done any cases to completion. There is no measure of success from these dentists that I consulted. Again, I have a consultation next week. Please send questions to ask.

@Lee , would you be willing to reach out to Dr. Ann Maree Cole and have her send detailed evidence of sound results from multiple cases? Even better, if she could provide a patient that would give testimony, who has had this done. It would be a great marketing service to her and her students if she could oblige.

Definitely second that request for Lee. If I had to guess: Practitioners need permission to advertise with a persons case, and someone who has had radical changes might not want their "before" pictures spread around.  They can show before/afters in their clinic, they are not able to put them on the internet or spread the images around where they might be leaked. It's encouraging that you say that you have been shown an astonishing before/after.

Regarding questions: Could you please bring up what I talked about in my last post in this thread? There are multiple other appliances virtually identical to the FAGGA, but all of the people using these only talk about dental/alveolar/premaxillary movement. LVI dentists with the FAGGA are the only ones claiming full nasomaxillary remodelling - so what are they doing differently? 

Thanks Sam

Will do TGW

For now, I am going to take an uneducated stab at answering that question. I believe these appliances were developed to correct class III with maxillary hypoplasia. They grew the premaxilla forward with insignificant forward movement of the mandible or maybe in combination with a chin cup. There  was probably always some nasomaxillary remodeling (as can be in the case of class III Corrrection with reverse pull headgear/tongue crib) but this was not the focus and was useless without the mandible moving forward in a more significant way.  At some point sleep apnea dentists discovered that molar splints to position the mandible forward, left some patients with a posterior open bite after a some time. This physiology was then turned on its head and used to move the mandible forward by utilizing molar build ups to vertically grow the mandibular joint posteriorly along with maxillary molar intrusion to allow the front of the mandible to swing upward and forward. Now this appliance can have a new use.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23833499

Here is a link showing bone remodeling in an adult not only of the maxilla but the entire anterior of her face. See figure 14. This is a complex class III case and a chin cup was employed (ugh). One thing I can’t reconcile with figure 14 is that it appears that her mandible has grown forward?? Maybe it rotated? But again a chin cup was used. Would love to discuss with an ortho or anyone who would care to venture an answer.

Hope I am not being too wonkish

If I had my druthers, I would have a tongue crib over a FAGGA appliance, but I cannot get any ortho/dentist to comply.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2018 10:16 pm
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: Amber12

Could someone do some measurements on this? Side by side images really don't work for me lol

@Amber You have been mining these great pics. Where are you getting them? Here is another example of good looking results, but the skeptic in me thinks that the camera angles are different and possibly distorting results. I have no doubt that this technology works, but I am skeptical to the degree and to what cost (physiologic, time, emotional and monetary)

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/04/2018 1:27 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

First one is centered at ear, second one at nose:

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/04/2018 2:31 pm
Drivven
New Member

Anybody who represents that you can grow bone in the adult maxilla or grow the raymus with this appliance is defrauding people.  This is an orthodoni appliance. Its been around since 1999 and it moves teeth and teeth only. Its also agressive, meaning that it moves teeth quickly.  If you are ok with your teeth tipped out of the bone, then choose this appliance. Buyer Beware.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/04/2018 9:22 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member

I'm currently undergoing this treatment if anyone wants to shoot me questions. Cheers

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/04/2018 10:36 pm
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: Drivven

Anybody who represents that you can grow bone in the adult maxilla or grow the raymus with this appliance is defrauding people.  This is an orthodoni appliance. Its been around since 1999 and it moves teeth and teeth only. Its also agressive, meaning that it moves teeth quickly.  If you are ok with your teeth tipped out of the bone, then choose this appliance. Buyer Beware.

Can you tell us why you are taking this position with detail? Do you have experience in this field? Yes, this appliance has been around for years, but is now being used in a different way. I do agree with the aggressive part, but would like to understand more.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/04/2018 10:26 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Sam
Posted by: Drivven

Anybody who represents that you can grow bone in the adult maxilla or grow the raymus with this appliance is defrauding people.  This is an orthodoni appliance. Its been around since 1999 and it moves teeth and teeth only. Its also agressive, meaning that it moves teeth quickly.  If you are ok with your teeth tipped out of the bone, then choose this appliance. Buyer Beware.

Can you tell us why you are taking this position with detail? Do you have experience in this field? Yes, this appliance has been around for years, but is now being used in a different way. I do agree with the aggressive part, but would like to understand more.

The two orthodontists (one is a professor) I showed this to both thought that there was no maxilla remolding to speak of just some teeth moving forward and some backward. It's a common view point in the field and I think the team behind this new method have not really supported their case sufficiently.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/04/2018 12:53 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Lee

Those doing the AGGA, through LVI anyway, are taught to work on their forward head posture at the same time, and tongue position; many also go to upper cervical chiros or get cranialsacral adjustments. One dentist told me if they aren't at least fixing their tongue posture, he won't grow out the maxilla as far. An orthotic is usually done before the AGGA to find the forward position. Then they either have an orthotic 24/7 or bite plates with the AGGA to allow the mandible to come forward. Any posterior open bite would be fixed with the braces. Or, if they were doing implants in the spaces rather than braces, they could have inlays/onlays.

Here's a case a dentist shared with me. I don't know the age of patient but he said he did not grow out too far forward on this one.

This all looks like ortho results to me. Nothing atypical that braces can't accomplish. I don't see much arch widening or the shape of the maxilla changing

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/04/2018 1:34 pm
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: abdul
Posted by: Sam
Posted by: Drivven

Anybody who represents that you can grow bone in the adult maxilla or grow the raymus with this appliance is defrauding people.  This is an orthodoni appliance. Its been around since 1999 and it moves teeth and teeth only. Its also agressive, meaning that it moves teeth quickly.  If you are ok with your teeth tipped out of the bone, then choose this appliance. Buyer Beware.

Can you tell us why you are taking this position with detail? Do you have experience in this field? Yes, this appliance has been around for years, but is now being used in a different way. I do agree with the aggressive part, but would like to understand more.

The two orthodontists (one is a professor) I showed this to both thought that there was no maxilla remolding to speak of just some teeth moving forward and some backward. It's a common view point in the field and I think the team behind this new method have not really supported their case sufficiently.

@Abdul Yes I agree, The lack of info in supporting their case is so frustrating to those of us who are interested in this. There maybe evidence, but no-one is coming forward with it. It does seem suspicious.

I also can't reconcile that moving teeth forward 5 to 12 mm can occur without some remodeling. Teeth cannot be moved that far forward without it or they would be moved out of the bone. I also believe that there is some backward movement as well, but not enough to change the fact that the front teeth have moved so far forward. The X-ray that is being shown on this thread, no doubt shows how far the front teeth moved. I am not sure how safe this is? 

Have you challenged the professor further? These orthodontist also claim that braces cannot move bone, just teeth. Tell that to those of us and many others who have absolutely experienced facial and skull changes due to orthodontics in simple cases. Yet these orthos will deny this every time. Most will also tell you traditional orthodontics has nothing to do with sleep apnea. 

I have spoken to someone who is in the growth phase of this treatment. He was and still is a skeptic of the safety of this treatment as a whole and is cautiously proceeding. By his own testimony, he said there is no denying the forward growth he is experiencing. 

Here is a link to prove that maxillary bone remodeling is in fact possible in adults, conducted by maxillofacial surgeons:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247153967_Bone_remodeling_to_correct_maxillary_deficiency_after_growth_cessation

Would it be possible to have this discussion again with that professor? It would be great if he would come on this forum and discuss!! 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/04/2018 2:21 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Sam

Here is a link to prove that maxillary bone remodeling is in fact possible in adults, conducted by maxillofacial surgeons:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247153967_Bone_remodeling_to_correct_maxillary_deficiency_after_growth_cessation

Would it be possible to have this discussion again with that professor? It would be great if he would come on this forum and discuss!! 

This is the kind of quality work and documentation he is interested in, not as he stated "bunch of commercial websites and random pictures."

I am going to visit him tomorrow for a second opinion on my current procedure. I will show him this article and bring up the topic with him again, but I think I already know his response.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/04/2018 11:34 am
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: abdul
Posted by: Sam

Here is a link to prove that maxillary bone remodeling is in fact possible in adults, conducted by maxillofacial surgeons:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247153967_Bone_remodeling_to_correct_maxillary_deficiency_after_growth_cessation

Would it be possible to have this discussion again with that professor? It would be great if he would come on this forum and discuss!! 

This is the kind of quality work and documentation he is interested in, not as he stated "bunch of commercial websites and random pictures."

I am going to visit him tomorrow for a second opinion on my current procedure. I will show him this article and bring up the topic with him again, but I think I already know his response.

Thanks, Abdul. That would be helpful if you could get him into a challenging discussion with details. 

I am equally as frustrated with the lack of supporting evidence and scientific documentation. However, I am also impressed by what my eyes see from photographic documentation and by those whom I have spoken to who are going through this treatment. My consulting dentist has showed me nothing short of astonishing photos. I am trying hard to reconcile the two. I am always playing devils advocate, not to be arguing one side or the other. I am keeping an open mind and I have not taken a firm position yet and am trying to flush out both sides. 

My biggest concerns are dental safety. 

Abdul, you would be a hero to many of us interested in AGGA if you could convince the professor to join this blog and teach us more. Invite him to just take a look around!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/04/2018 12:46 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Sam

Thanks, Abdul. That would be helpful if you could get him into a challenging discussion with details. 

I am equally as frustrated with the lack of supporting evidence and scientific documentation. However, I am also impressed by what my eyes see from photographic documentation and by those whom I have spoken to who are going through this treatment. My consulting dentist has showed me nothing short of astonishing photos. I am trying hard to reconcile the two. I am always playing devils advocate, not to be arguing one side or the other. I am keeping an open mind and I have not taken a firm position yet and am trying to flush out both sides. 

My biggest concerns are dental safety. 

Abdul, you would be a hero to many of us interested in AGGA if you could convince the professor to join this blog and teach us more. Invite him to just take a look around!

Welcome, but I think inviting busy professionals to the forum is not the right approach, because the information is presented in a cluttered way. Instead, I think the forum's user base should draft an essay detailing the procedure, providing available evidence, and asking questions in a very concise and brief manner. Only then will professionals take interest. One has to approach them in the way they like to be approached. Impress them with the quality of presentation and surely you will capture some of their attention.  

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/04/2018 1:38 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I posted this on Ronny's blog, and I'll repost it here as statement of where my ideas about the appliance are. This is the situation that's been going on trying to get proof from the LVI owners and their dentists via both their facebook group and directly contacting them so far. 

I asked for pictures and received an essay in response. We're still trying to get a ceph trace analysis out of these people, and they refuse to provide one. It's very suspicious that an INSTITUTE that claims to have been practicing this technique successfully for so long cannot produce a single ceph trace for any of us to look at. It's the most basic thing that everyone looks/asks for when trying to see changes in the maxilla and mandible, it's ridiculous that not even a single one of their RESEARCH PAPERS contains one. There isn't a single example of x-rays/ceph traces at all, just profile pictures with different head angles and often different lighting.

They're only talking this way because most people on the facebook page are not educated about these topics and implicitly trust these doctors. Asking for a ceph trace before/after is literally the first question that they should anticipate when claiming that "We grow the mandible and maxilla forwards". It's like a salesman showing up to your door without the product or any good examples of the product working. Just a wink and a smile and a request for trust that they've done nothing to deserve and everything to erode.

I can't understate what I'm saying here, so I'll follow on with the analogy: A salesman shows up to your door with a vacuum. You say you're interested in buying it, but request that he plugs it in and shows you that it works. He doesn't: he shows you pictures of vacuums seeming to be in motion, talks up a storm about how incredible and revolutionary the science of the vacuum is, and his friends all tell you that it's a really good vacuum.

You ask again, "please just turn the vacuum on so that I know that it works. This is literally the most basic request I could possibly make before I would purchase this vacuum from you". He gives you an article about how vacuums work, and his fanclub congratulates him on his reply.

This is pretty much a direct translation of what the ceph trace issue is. For the claim "We moved and grew the maxilla and mandible forward", the most appropriate response is "Can I see a before/after ceph trace?".

And yet across the entire internet and all their published articles nobody seems to be able to plug the goddamn vacuum in and show us that it works. Literally all it would take to settle the entire issue is for them to produce the most basic and ubiquitous scan in the history of dentistry.

In the next month or so I'll be able to go see a doctor and see if they'll show any scans in-office. I'm going to suspend engaging with the LVI or their dentists until then, and if I can't get proper proof from the doctor I visit I'll definitely update.  I'd love to be proven wrong, for the record. I'm hoping that I'm proven wrong and that this is actually an incredible leap forward in health and dentistry. Their core philosophy of the issue seems to be completely on-point regarding what the issues are. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/04/2018 4:19 pm
Makmama, Banknote, rogerramjet and 3 people liked
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: TGW

I posted this on Ronny's blog, and I'll repost it here as statement of where my ideas about the appliance are. This is the situation that's been going on trying to get proof from the LVI owners and their dentists via both their facebook group and directly contacting them so far. 

Hey TGW,

Which FB page in particular are you referring to? The LVI Global one?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/04/2018 9:46 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: rogerramjet
Posted by: TGW

I posted this on Ronny's blog, and I'll repost it here as statement of where my ideas about the appliance are. This is the situation that's been going on trying to get proof from the LVI owners and their dentists via both their facebook group and directly contacting them so far. 

Hey TGW,

Which FB page in particular are you referring to? The LVI Global one?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/tmjtmdosa/

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/04/2018 10:23 pm
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: rogerramjet

I'm currently undergoing this treatment if anyone wants to shoot me questions. Cheers

Thank you for your previous reply. I am wondering why you changed course midtreatment and decided to expand some more when you have already achieved your health goals? (tmj/sleep apnea)

Did you have a ceph X-ray or CBCT at the start of your treatment?

Would your dentist be willing to share some before and after ceph X-rays of patients that have completed treatment, that show bone remodeling? Has he seen X-ray evidence of this from his patients or other lvi dentists? I know that is a tall order, but it would really fill a void. Skeletal evidence is what I am looking for.

Could you possibly post before and after pics altered to conceal your identity if you are not comfortable? 

I know I am asking a lot.

Thanks again for your willingness to help. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2018 12:32 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: Sam
Posted by: rogerramjet

I'm currently undergoing this treatment if anyone wants to shoot me questions. Cheers

Thank you for your previous reply. I am wondering why you changed course midtreatment and decided to expand some more when you have already achieved your health goals? (tmj/sleep apnea)

I wouldn't say that we've changed course mid treatment per say. Towards the end of the first AGGA treatment I was offered getting a new appliance to keep the process going, but I was getting antsy and had poor self esteem and just wanted braces on. So the idea of going back into the appliance is/was not a new one. I know other patients of the practice who have had two rounds of AGGA treatment too.

But your question is a good one. It's best answered in this way I think - my lower jaw has decompressed and now sits in a much healthier position, but as the treatment has continued I've had more and more of an ability to project it forward and further than it used to be able to. And that projection forward further than it's current position has felt (and looked) more natural than it currently sits. 

Over the last few months of braces treatment, I have found myself thrusting my lower jaw forward (in front of my upper jaw) to kind of test (?) what it feels like, and that place always feels really natural and comfortable. It's only three or so mm more forward than its current position. I am very happy with my results so far - that change in my jaw position and the flow on effects in my health can't be understated, but that growing suspicion that the 'perfect' few mm forward with just a few more months of AGGA and mewing is just too tempting to pass up.

Hope that makes sense?

Did you have a ceph X-ray or CBCT at the start of your treatment?

I have a CBCT yes, but not a ceph. My practitioner might, but I haven't asked them for a copy (yet).

Would your dentist be willing to share some before and after ceph X-rays of patients that have completed treatment, that show bone remodeling? Has he seen X-ray evidence of this from his patients or other lvi dentists? I know that is a tall order, but it would really fill a void. Skeletal evidence is what I am looking for.

This is the million dollar question. Have the results I've achieved actually occurred because of the following:

1. maxilla remodeling, or

2. tipping of the anterior 6, or

3. the anterior 6 are moving forward through bone that already existed but I hadn't taken advantage of (as a child) due to my premolars being removed.

To be honest, I cannot say with certainty.

 

Here are some things I note:

1. I'm not a dentist or medical practitioner, and as a dentist on the FB group pointed out, I and most other people in this community are not trained to interpret radiology.

2. Dr Mew has suggested (somewhere that I've read on this forum) that x-rays do not necessarily demonstrate maxilla advancement or what has been achieved.

3. I have looked at my x-rays but the slices of before and after don't exactly line up at the same position in my face so it's a flawed comparison based on what I have. I don't have all of the records from my dentist. I'm also not trained to interpret them (see 1. above).

4. I have been given an image of two x-rays front on superimposed where the software has indicated changes in bone development. This has shown new growth in the cheekbones, jaw, etc.. The growth it shows in the maxilla however is limited largely to the anterior 6 and their roots and not the entire maxilla. I am not sure if that is actually the case. I don't know. Where does mewing normally deposit bone/make changes? I don't know. Does anybody? Maybe this is all that can be achieved?

5. We need an expert from LVI to emphatically come out and say, this is what the AGGA achieves and why. This is where you can demonstrate a physiological change. This is why you can/cannot see radiological evidence for that change. This is how to prove it. This is why it is safe.

6. Until that time, I cannot explain how/why I have achieved the results I have achieved.

In truth I would be sad to learn that I hadn't grown new bone and that I had been sold a sham, i.e. that it was just straightforward orthodontic work that was being done at the risk of tipping, etc. All I can comment on though, is the results I have achieved with my treatment which is: corrected head posture, decompressed lower jaw, dramatically improved profile, more space in my arch, larger looking cheekbones, wider jaw and stronger massteurs, more space in my mouth for my tongue, easier breathing, no TMJ or clicking. 

So who knows. I'm just as much waiting on the edge of my seat for radiological proof as everyone else is.

Could you possibly post before and after pics altered to conceal your identity if you are not comfortable? 

I know I am asking a lot.

Thanks again for your willingness to help. 

You know this is the hard part. When I started out on this treatment years ago there was a dearth of information. All of the studies, papers, summaries that various forum members here have found, I found and dissected at length. I was obsessed. I would stare at the photos on the Robina Town Dental website at length because they were the best series of photos I had to rely on and compare myself to. I found an Instagram account that documented some of the same treatment. I was crying out for someone, somewhere to share all their info.

But over the last few months the AGGA world seems to have exploded and there is all this exciting new information available to digest. Ron is super brave to share his journey so openly.

It's tough because I'm not ashamed of my results - the difference in my face has been profound! But I have also seen here, and on Facebook etc. people's faces and scans being picked at ad nauseam, and as someone who guards his privacy I don't want that happening to me. Also, there is so little by way of photographic comparisons out there, that I know if I post my face here it will end up on the first page of Google Image results. So yeah, it's tough. But I also want to share my results and see what people think so it's a conundrum! 

I will say though, that my results have been so good that my LVI practitioner has shared and used my results with other practitioners -  in fact I think they've been referenced on here and on FB. So I guess that's a compliment?

Maybe I'll share them in PMs, not sure yet.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2018 8:57 pm
ladida and Apollo liked
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: rogerramjet
Posted by: Sam

 

Would your dentist be willing to share some before and after ceph X-rays of patients that have completed treatment, that show bone remodeling? Has he seen X-ray evidence of this from his patients or other lvi dentists? I know that is a tall order, but it would really fill a void. Skeletal evidence is what I am looking for.

Here are some things I note:

1. I'm not a dentist or medical practitioner, and as a dentist on the FB group pointed out, I and most other people in this community are not trained to interpret radiology.

2. Dr Mew has suggested (somewhere that I've read on this forum) that x-rays do not necessarily demonstrate maxilla advancement or what has been achieved.

3. I have looked at my x-rays but the slices of before and after don't exactly line up at the same position in my face so it's a flawed comparison based on what I have. I don't have all of the records from my dentist. I'm also not trained to interpret them (see 1. above).

4. I have been given an image of two x-rays front on superimposed where the software has indicated changes in bone development. This has shown new growth in the cheekbones, jaw, etc.. The growth it shows in the maxilla however is limited largely to the anterior 6 and their roots and not the entire maxilla. I am not sure if that is actually the case. I don't know. Where does mewing normally deposit bone/make changes? I don't know. Does anybody? Maybe this is all that can be achieved?

5. We need an expert from LVI to emphatically come out and say, this is what the AGGA achieves and why. This is where you can demonstrate a physiological change. This is why you can/cannot see radiological evidence for that change. This is how to prove it. This is why it is safe.

6. Until that time, I cannot explain how/why I have achieved the results I have achieved.

In truth I would be sad to learn that I hadn't grown new bone and that I had been sold a sham, i.e. that it was just straightforward orthodontic work that was being done at the risk of tipping, etc. All I can comment on though, is the results I have achieved with my treatment which is: corrected head posture, decompressed lower jaw, dramatically improved profile, more space in my arch, larger looking cheekbones, wider jaw and stronger massteurs, more space in my mouth for my tongue, easier breathing, no TMJ or clicking. 

So who knows. I'm just as much waiting on the edge of my seat for radiological proof as everyone else is.

Could you possibly post before and after pics altered to conceal your identity if you are not comfortable? 

I know I am asking a lot.

Thanks again for your willingness to help. 

You know this is the hard part. When I started out on this treatment years ago there was a dearth of information. All of the studies, papers, summaries that various forum members here have found, I found and dissected at length. I was obsessed (I'm an INTJ - knowledge addict). I would stare at the photos on the Robina Town Dental website at length because they were the best series of photos I had to rely on and compare myself to. I found an Instagram account that documented some of the same treatment. I was crying out for someone, somewhere to share all their info.

But over the last few months the AGGA world seems to have exploded and there is all this exciting new information available to digest. Ron is super brave to share his journey so openly.

It's tough because I'm not ashamed of my results - the difference in my face has been profound! But I have also seen here, and on Facebook etc. people's faces and scans being picked at ad nauseam, and as someone who guards his privacy I don't want that happening to me. Also, there is so little by way of photographic comparisons out there, that I know if I post my face here it will end up on the first page of Google Image results. So yeah, it's tough. But I also want to share my results and see what people think so it's a conundrum! 

I will say though, that my results have been so good that my LVI practitioner has shared and used my results with other practitioners -  in fact I think they've been reference on here and on FB. So I guess that's a compliment?

Maybe I'll share them in PMs, not sure yet.

I think I maybe in the place you were in, when you first started out, desperate for info and a bit obsessed with figuring out if this is something I could trust. The mistrust comes from a ruined face from traditional orthodontics, in which I was told was impossible by many traditionally trained orthos.

I now have testimony from 2 different people who have received this treatment and have stated they are experiencing what the FAGGA practitioners said this appliance would do. Unfortunately, you and the other person have not finished treatment, so it is incomplete testimony. I think hearing from actual experience is very powerful and I thank you.

It is satisfying to know the your dentist showed you an overlay of x-rays in which new bone was laid down. I am not clear if it was your X-rays? 

1. I'm not a dentist or medical practitioner, and as a dentist on the FB group pointed out, I and most other people in this community are not trained to interpret radiology.

A CBCT scan is a great and awesome tool that I have no doubt could measure all kinds of changes in the skeletal anatomy. You nor I could not interpret radiology, but I am sure through this scan, the practitioner could interpret it for you.

This is where the mistrust comes in for me. Why does not one practitioner make this available publicly? For patients, orthodontists and dentists who are naysayers  that would be a great way to start proving what the FAGGA appliance can do. Wouldn't they want to do this and give further legitimacy to what they are achieving? 

I am desperately trying to reconcile personal patient testimony with any sort of provable skeletal evidence. 

I have another consultation with a FAGGA practitioner coming up soon. I am going to ask him these questions. I will certainly post the info on this forum.

And, I totally understand your reluctance at posting your pics. Thanks for sharing your experience. I am rooting for your successful completion!

I am sending you a pm

 

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2018 11:04 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: Sam

 

This is where the mistrust comes in for me. Why does not one practitioner make this available publicly? For patients, orthodontists and dentists who are naysayers  that would be a great way to start proving what the FAGGA appliance can do. Wouldn't they want to do this and give further legitimacy to what they are achieving? 

I am desperately trying to reconcile personal patient testimony with any sort of provable skeletal evidence. 

I have another consultation with a FAGGA practitioner coming up soon. I am going to ask him these questions. I will certainly post the info on this forum.

And, I totally understand your reluctance at posting your pics. Thanks for sharing your experience. I am rooting for your successful completion!

I am sending you a pm

I don't disagree with anything you've said.

I think we need two things from appropriate experts:

1. whether this appliance actually advances the maxilla/lays down bone as sold; and

2. whether it can be demonstrated on CT/x-ray/radiology and why/why not.

 

I also wonder, and this is question for the broader community on this forum and something I've said in my previous posts, whether the outcomes achieved by the AGGA completely align with what this community and its individuals want to achieve.

I can't stress this enough. I didn't seek out mewing and then come across this device. I had dental/orthodontic/TMJ problems that lead me to AGGA, which seems to have some overlap with the goals of this community. I might be an interloper and there could be a genuine difference in desired outcome here.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/04/2018 11:57 pm
Sam liked
maverick
New Member
Posted by: Lee

Those doing the AGGA, through LVI anyway, are taught to work on their forward head posture at the same time, and tongue position; many also go to upper cervical chiros or get cranialsacral adjustments. One dentist told me if they aren't at least fixing their tongue posture, he won't grow out the maxilla as far. An orthotic is usually done before the AGGA to find the forward position. Then they either have an orthotic 24/7 or bite plates with the AGGA to allow the mandible to come forward. Any posterior open bite would be fixed with the braces. Or, if they were doing implants in the spaces rather than braces, they could have inlays/onlays.

Here's a case a dentist shared with me. I don't know the age of patient but he said he did not grow out too far forward on this one.

As I understand it, an orthotic is used to find the correct physiologic position in TMD/TMJ patients to eliminate their pain first. Non-TMD patients don't typically wear an orthotic. An adult without TMD pain could move into AGGA as the first mode of treatment and then finish to close the gaps with ortho. I think I'm leaning in this direction.

I am assuming bite plates are the same as flat pads from what I have read, right? They look like a flattened off filling with the tooth-colored material so the jaw has an easier time moving forward.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/04/2018 5:10 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: rogerramjet 

I also wonder, and this is question for the broader community on this forum and something I've said in my previous posts, whether the outcomes achieved by the AGGA completely align with what this community and its individuals want to achieve.

I can't stress this enough. I didn't seek out mewing and then come across this device. I had dental/orthodontic/TMJ problems that lead me to AGGA, which seems to have some overlap with the goals of this community. I might be an interloper and there could be a genuine difference in desired outcome here.

Physically: A return to correct physiology and functioning of the skeletal and muscular systems of the body. Some do it to fix TMD/Jaw pain, some do it for aesthetics, back pain, scoliosis, muscle imbalances, lordosis, kyphosis, sleep apnea, snoring, lack of energy, mental health issues, [...]: Many issues stem from improper growth of the skull and jaw - causing a cascade of problems down the spine, which in turn causes health issues across the body. Regardless of the individual wish lists, there's a laundry list of issues that can be resolved by returning the body to its proper form and function. We work and research together on how to stimulate proper growth, and/or how to correct improper growth once it has occured. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/04/2018 6:06 pm
Amber12
Active Member

I know there's already a thread for this device, but I think this before/after is worth its salt and discussion. The front view. The front view!

The entire thing shortens. The chin is higher, the hairline is lower. This really looks like up and forward growth!

 

 

 

 
ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
lloveangell and Sam liked
Amber12
Active Member

@admin the images aren't embedding in the post?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: Amber12

@admin the images aren't embedding in the post?

They're large images. One of these are 6.5mb 

It would appear there's a few of following the same facebook group. I've been following this guy as well, and this does look very promising. But I'm unsatisfied until we see X-rays of completed treatment. Hopefully the LVI dentists/owners can produce some for us, I've requested. Ronny (whose before/afters these are) says that he'll also have some. Go ahead over to his blog if you're reading this and leave a comment of support and thanks for actually keeping everyone updated.
 
Although I appreciate your excitement, I'm going to merge this into the other FAGGA thread eventually
ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

why does his chin look way worse

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I'm going to post the response I got on my request here:

I have reviewed the site owned by (My Name) and it is a site on facial development, and there are obviously dentists who are ill informed and mistaken in their wildly speculative comments on these 2 cephalometric images taken on a patient of mine in treatment. I politely told (My Name) that any of the dentists on his site are welcome to come and learn at LVI what a growth appliance is and does. I am not going to teach it over facebook or any other internet forum... They have no understanding of what the AGGA is and what it does. There have been thousands of growth appliances used for the past 28 years with stunning success. It is one of the safest orthodontics appliances ever developed. Firstly the criticism of the teeth being "torqued out of the bone" is completely wrong. The defective path of Nasomaxillary development is almost always down and back, the so called vertical growth pattern. The stimulation from the growth appliance remodels the anterior Maxilla back in the direction of correct facial growth which is usually up and forward. The following orthodontic alignments will create final proper root torque as well as level the arch such that vertical Maxillary excess can be positively affected, thus reducing the gummy smile look. This happens because the molar teeth with function from the pads typically intrudes slightly. The net effect is to impact the entire Maxilla superiorly. This is another aspect of complete 3 dimensional remodeling that is not a linear process. Part of my teaching is to undo linear thinking that is so prevalent, and this appliance creates 3 dimensional changes following Enlow's models of facial growth. The AGGA is NOT A TOOTH BORNE APPLIANCE LIKE ALL OTHER EXPANSION DEVICES. It creates pressure on the Nasopalatine neurovascular bundle which creates a response which is to lay down bone to over the nerve to protect it from irritation from the pressure on the pad.The teeth are bonded to a wire which specifically prevents any movement of teeth They are effectively relocated passively as the bone develops. Since bone is appositionally being laid down on the palatal side of the pad, the body reacts by a complete activation of 3 dimensional remodeling as per Enlow, which is to say that bone is laid down in alternating fields of apposition and resoroption which creates a form of cortical drift of the entire Anterior Maxilla and the 6 anterior teeth along with it. The entire alveolar segment is relocated up and forwards, and the teeth achieve a more correct angulation. In this case she was treated 4 times with extraction based ortho and many subsequent attempts, and the anterior incisors are de-torqued and upright. and excessively vertical. Understand that the entire segment was relocated 12mm forward as measured from the space distal to the Canine. There is no way you could do this with a tooth borne appliance which would overwhelm the system and push the teeth out of the bone. What is also a mistake is to note the posterior teeth are being pushed back. Firstly the Mandible is also remodeling forward to couple with the anteriorly developing Maxilla and so the upper posterior teeth are behind the lower posterior teeth. Any distalization that occurs is minor tipping and is corrected in the following protractive mechanics later in treatment. The Maxillary Tuberosity is a powerful growth site that will not allow teeth to be pushed into it. In terms of comparison, if we get minor tipping of the upper posterior teeth while at the same time we get 12 mm of space developed behind the cuspid, we have achieved quite nicely the goal of face forward development in a profound manner. All subsequent mechanics protract all the teeth forward effectively relocating the entire Maxilla in a face forward direction, which is the direction of health and physiology. We have the evidence and tack record of success and since this treatment so dramatically changes the game of orthodontics, and challenges the outdated thinking so prevalent, it will be attacked, that is a certainty. If it is being done, it is probably possible is a worthwhile quote that applies here.....

Well done everyone: You're all so incredibly well informed about this topic that dentists are mistaking you for other dentists and thinking that this forum is some sort of professional gathering place where we bash the LVI. I'm literally now trying to convince Dr. Buck that none of us have any sort of medical education.

David Buck Not myself nor a single person on that website is a dentist, or practice medicine in any form. I work in finance, and before that the military. The level of education that the discussion is taking place at might give the impression that we are stuck up dentists trying to find flaws, but the entire website is made up of people with craniofacial dystrophy doing their own research and trying to look for ways to naturally correct it. We are all patients requesting help and proof that the device works. And once again we have received "thousands of cases and practitioners" and not a single scan of solid proof.

The entire point of the forum and the work of the people on it has been to find a natural cure for craniofacial dystrophy and recessed maxillas without the use of surgery. The forum has been very active and hopeful in discussing the AGGA device and people are hoping that it will solve our issues. We are literally a group of prospective patients asking for help and to see before/afters for confirmation.

I'm honestly feeling a bit silly having to defend against the allegation of myself or people on the website being medical professionals. Usually one has to defend their credentials, but here I'm doing the opposite: We have absolutely nobody on the website who has any credentials or professional medical background. Literally a quarter of the userbase is either in their late teens or early twenties! We are potential patients trying to find out if this is the right treatment for us. 

Out of all those many thousands of practitioners and hundreds of successful cases could we please.... please.... please see a single X-Ray or Scan showing a before and after?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Apollo, Sam and Miandra liked
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: krollic

why does his chin look way worse

His facial asymmetry worsened too.  I think the chin thing is due to teeth moving without as much maxillary advancement. I think his teeth tipped forward which is what caused this increased pout. Realistically if the maxilla and mandible come forward, the chin will look stronger and the lips will pout less. But I think that what happened here was teeth tipping instead. Sure it makes the skin look more taut everywhere else but I don't see this as an example of maxillary advancement at all. Plus where is his gonial angle change? All I see is masseter development

And finally, he had forward head posture in the first pic and then proper posture in the second. Why can't we see them position their patients the same way in the pictures? They conveniently have them change their posture only in the after pic but this won't show changes because the mode of measurement has changed 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: TGW

Well done everyone: You're all so incredibly well informed about this topic that dentists are mistaking you for other dentists and thinking that this forum is some sort of professional gathering place where we bash the LVI. I'm literally now trying to convince Dr. Buck that none of us have any sort of medical education.

 

It's exciting how consistent influx of intelligent individuals the community has seen in such a short amount of time. I have hesitated saying this, but we may truly be living in the early days of something that has the potential to become of significant value to humanity. Think for a moment of the consequences of easily accessible information that teaches you how to improve in a very fundamental way:

1. aesthetic appeal

2. fitness & function

3. wellbeing & energy

(4. possibly: awareness, empathy, focus/productivity, social confidence/opportunities/status etc )

each at the SAME TIME... by YOURSELF... in YOUR OWN HOME... for FREE.  What people are already achieving within this community is greater than what the average trained medical professional views as a physical possibility. It is also more than what the vast majority of  scammers, quacks and charlatans have ever dared to promise... IN FEAR OF BEING TOO OBVIOUS. What the [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]? It is hard not to laugh at the absurdity of the situation. How could such knowledge not spread like a wildfire when it finally reaches the critical point?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
TGW liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: TGW

It creates pressure on the Nasopalatine neurovascular bundle which creates a response which is to lay down bone to over the nerve to protect it from irritation from the pressure on the pad.The teeth are bonded to a wire which specifically prevents any movement of teeth They are effectively relocated passively as the bone develops. Since bone is appositionally being laid down on the palatal side of the pad, the body reacts by a complete activation of 3 dimensional remodeling as per Enlow, which is to say that bone is laid down in alternating fields of apposition and resoroption which creates a form of cortical drift of the entire Anterior Maxilla and the 6 anterior teeth along with it. The entire alveolar segment is relocated up and forwards, and the teeth achieve a more correct angulation.

I think most of us agree that it isn't enough to just position the tip of the tongue at "the spot" but rather the entire tongue needs to engage the roof of the mouth to achieve discernible skeletal changes. So I am skeptical of the notion that the incisive papilla (located over the incisive foramen through which the nasopalatine neurovascular bundle passes) is a kind of "on" button that activates growth.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member

Just my two cents, but my AGGA appliance treatment was done in conjunction with my practitioner instructing me to all day, every day engage the acrylic pad with my tongue. I was also taught how to properly swallow and how to rest my tongue on the roof of my mouth.

 

I can understand the skepticism therefore of this being an orthodontic device that has been around for a long time, now being championed as a remodelling device. And I think that had I not been under the care of an experienced practitioner who understood the physiological theory behind the device, that the outcome could have tended towards tipping.

 

But I think it's the device's (and practitioner's) encouragement of constant and correct tongue engagement with the palate (which, from what I've read of this forum is called mewing?) with the gentle force encouraging the forward movement of the teeth and the maxilla that work in conjunction together to deliver the great results I have seen.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Makmama, Amber12, Miandra and 1 people liked
Miandra
Active Member
Posted by: rogerramjet

Just my two cents, but my AGGA appliance treatment was done in conjunction with my practitioner instructing me to all day, every day engage the acrylic pad with my tongue. I was also taught how to properly swallow and how to rest my tongue on the roof of my mouth.

 

I can understand the skepticism therefore of this being an orthodontic device that has been around for a long time, now being championed as a remodelling device. And I think that had I not been under the care of an experienced practitioner who understood the physiological theory behind the device, that the outcome could have tended towards tipping.

 

But I think it's the device's (and practitioner's) encouragement of constant and correct tongue engagement with the palate (which, from what I've read of this forum is called mewing?) with the gentle force encouraging the forward movement of the teeth and the maxilla that work in conjunction together to deliver the great results I have seen.

My dentist who also uses the AGGA appliance said the same thing, he also recommended me to get a tongue-tie surgery to make it easier for me to get my posterior third up as well. The dentists I've talked to in person put great emphasis on correct tongue posture.

The one dentist in Australia I met was fully aware of the Mews, and agreed on pretty much everything they say.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Amber12
Active Member
Posted by: Miandra
Posted by: rogerramjet

Just my two cents, but my AGGA appliance treatment was done in conjunction with my practitioner instructing me to all day, every day engage the acrylic pad with my tongue. I was also taught how to properly swallow and how to rest my tongue on the roof of my mouth.

 

I can understand the skepticism therefore of this being an orthodontic device that has been around for a long time, now being championed as a remodelling device. And I think that had I not been under the care of an experienced practitioner who understood the physiological theory behind the device, that the outcome could have tended towards tipping.

 

But I think it's the device's (and practitioner's) encouragement of constant and correct tongue engagement with the palate (which, from what I've read of this forum is called mewing?) with the gentle force encouraging the forward movement of the teeth and the maxilla that work in conjunction together to deliver the great results I have seen.

My dentist who also uses the AGGA appliance said the same thing, he also recommended me to get a tongue-tie surgery to make it easier for me to get my posterior third up as well. The dentists I've talked to in person put great emphasis on correct tongue posture.

I'm so happy to hear that both of your dentists are people who are really understanding of how important the tongue is. 

@rogerramjet @Miandra I think I speak for a lot of us when I say that although there is skepticism we really hope that both of you have incredible results and even fix yours jaws completely 100%. I'd like nothing more than for us to have actually found a solution. It would actually prove that tongue posture/mewing works too (if just applying pressure is actually causing all this growth)

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Apollo, rogerramjet, Sam and 1 people liked
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: Amber12
Posted by: Miandra
Posted by: rogerramjet

...

I'm so happy to hear that both of your dentists are people who are really understanding of how important the tongue is. 

@rogerramjet @Miandra I think I speak for a lot of us when I say that although there is skepticism we really hope that both of you have incredible results and even fix yours jaws completely 100%. I'd like nothing more than for us to have actually found a solution. It would actually prove that tongue posture/mewing works too (if just applying pressure is actually causing all this growth)

 

Fix is an interesting word. I imagine from my limited reading of the forums that there are many different reasons why each individual is here and what they would like to achieve.

 

From my perspective, the benefits have been threefold:

 

1. I used to have sleep apnea and my sleep physician at the time never once looked down my throat to see the size of my tonsils and the limited space of my palate caused my unnecessary premolar extractions as a child. I was on CPAP for 3 years. Since having a tonsillectomy and the AGGA treatment, I no longer snore or have sleep apnea.

2. I used to have have bad TMJ and a lot of clicking. This has resolved since my lower jaw now rests and engages in a more appropriate position. My practitioner identified early calcification on my TMJ muscles which has since diminished as well.

3. The aesthetics. My cheekbones and profile are much improved. I can't deny that the cosmetic benefits didn't cross my mind as much as the physiological/health benefits. You would not believe the number of people who commented on how different I looked that year.

 

I'm about to embark on another round of AGGA treatment, as my practitioner and I agree that there is more that could be done. In the interim I had controlled arch braces on and was pulling my remaining premolars forward in the spaces I had created. This round of treatment should be significantly shorter though. As previously, engagement with my acrylic pad will be really important for remodeling and speed of change.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Makmama, Sam and Apollo liked
Allixa
Estimable Member

The front view transformation looks insanely good. But I have some questions about it. The first is that it looks touched up a bit. Especially if you look at the lips.. they almost look too smooth. I'm not sure if I'm right or not but it looks strange to my eyes.

The second is that in the front view you can clearly see the lips travel up towards the eyes, so the distance between the two should be shorter right? So why in the side view is the distance actually longer? I checked the ears and they are the same size showing that the photos are taken from the same distance.

Also the angle of his maxilla is less in the after photo too. The only way this could be true is if the fagga pushed his face bones backwards. Can anyone explain what's going on? Because I tried to in the other thread and this photo is falling in line with my prediction.

I drew the red line from his eye to the nostril to the center of the lips so head rotation wouldn't affect the measurement.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member

I'm interested to see if anyone has a demonstration of AGGA/FAGGA results in circumstances where the patient has had no teeth extractions that has caused an arch collapse or arch deficiency.

I say that because I guess there is a real possibility (but I'm no expert) that my anterior 6 are moving forward in bone that already existed but hadn't been used because of my extractions in childhood. As opposed to someone actually growing and depositing new bone in circumstances where their adult teeth are intact...

Anyone have any thoughts?

 

EDIT: Oh wait, saw this in another forum:

Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Lee

Those doing the AGGA, through LVI anyway, are taught to work on their forward head posture at the same time, and tongue position; many also go to upper cervical chiros or get cranialsacral adjustments. One dentist told me if they aren't at least fixing their tongue posture, he won't grow out the maxilla as far. An orthotic is usually done before the AGGA to find the forward position. Then they either have an orthotic 24/7 or bite plates with the AGGA to allow the mandible to come forward. Any posterior open bite would be fixed with the braces. Or, if they were doing implants in the spaces rather than braces, they could have inlays/onlays.

Here's a case a dentist shared with me. I don't know the age of patient but he said he did not grow out too far forward on this one.

This all looks like ortho results to me. Nothing atypical that braces can't accomplish. I don't see much arch widening or the shape of the maxilla changing

There's obviously growth in that example - you can see how narrow the palette is prior to the FAGGA and then how much of broader arch it is at the end of treatment. The question EddieMoney raises is interesting though, can that result be achieved with conventional orthodontics? And is it maxilla growth?

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: Allixa

The front view transformation looks insanely good. But I have some questions about it. The first is that it looks touched up a bit. Especially if you look at the lips.. they almost look too smooth. I'm not sure if I'm right or not but it looks strange to my eyes.

The second is that in the front view you can clearly see the lips travel up towards the eyes, so the distance between the two should be shorter right? So why in the side view is the distance actually longer? I checked the ears and they are the same size showing that the photos are taken from the same distance.

Also the angle of his maxilla is less in the after photo too. The only way this could be true is if the fagga pushed his face bones backwards. Can anyone explain what's going on? Because I tried to in the other thread and this photo is falling in line with my prediction.

I drew the red line from his eye to the nostril to the center of the lips so head rotation wouldn't affect the measurement.

Maybe send Ronny a message with your questions on his website, and post back here what he says? 🙂

 

https://www.migrainehacks.com/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Allixa
Estimable Member

It looks like someone beat us to it already. Here's the response:

It sounds like no one really knows for sure what's going on. It would be nice if we could get some clear before/after x-rays to know for sure. I did my best to try and figure out what the FAGGA actually does based on the photos and x-rays we have in the other thread. I'm pretty confident that my analysis in the other thread is correct. If you go to that thread and read all of my posts in there carefully you will see my position on the device. Everyone is saying that it provides forward movement but based on the evidence, it looks like it actually creates BACKWARDS movement while flaring the teeth. I think there might be an illusion going on, and I'm basing that on the actual images and xrays that we have so far. But I want better and clearer proofs and xrays if we can get them. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
test151515
Active Member
Posted by: rogerramjet

I'm about to embark on another round of AGGA treatment, as my practitioner and I agree that there is more that could be done. In the interim I had controlled arch braces on and was pulling my remaining premolars forward in the spaces I had created. This round of treatment should be significantly shorter though. As previously, engagement with my acrylic pad will be really important for remodeling and speed of change.

Glad to see that there are people on this forum that have used the AGGA successfully. I want to ask you a few questions:

1) Did you have any device for your lower dental arch or was that not needed? In other words: Did your lower arch/mandible naturally change as the maxilla changed during AGGA treatment?

2) Did you need to use any other otrhodontic device after treatment with the AGGA was completed? Did you for example have to close gaps that had formed during the AGGA expansion?

3) Did you mostly see forward growth by AGGA treatment or did you also see widening? If so, what was your intermolar width before treatment and after treatment?

4) Did you notice any changes to the length of your face? Did it increase, decrease, or remain the same?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Makmama liked
test151515
Active Member
Posted by: Allixa

It sounds like no one really knows for sure what's going on. It would be nice if we could get some clear before/after x-rays to know for sure. I did my best to try and figure out what the FAGGA actually does based on the photos and x-rays we have in the other thread. I'm pretty confident that my analysis in the other thread is correct. If you go to that thread and read all of my posts in there carefully you will see my position on the device. Everyone is saying that it provides forward movement but based on the evidence, it looks like it actually creates BACKWARDS movement while flaring the teeth. I think there might be an illusion going on, and I'm basing that on the actual images and xrays that we have so far. But I want better and clearer proofs and xrays if we can get them. 

It certainly seems tricky to figure out what may have happened by looking at the photos in question. I suspect that it can be problematic to try to come to conclussions by looking at distances and angles between certain points in the photos. The red lines you have used to compare might for example not be of much use if the position of the eye sockets and the eyes themselves, and the position of the nose, have changed as a result of growth/remodeling and/or movement of bones in many areas of the skull (including the maxilla). I have noticed changes in myself in my 8 months of mewing/powermewing in areas such as my eye sockets, my nose and even my forehead (in addition to changes for my maxilla/mandible). I for example believe that my nose has moved to a more forwards position since I started. I have had to adjust my glasses by bending the very back part that goes above the ears. At a certain point my glasses started to tilt. I had to bend them by making them fit a longer distance. Given this it seems obvious to me that the distance from ears to nose has increased in me since I started. I started at a very collapsed/underdeveloped state which probably is a big reason as for why I have changed so much since then and in so many areas.

I do think it is a bit strange that his mandible does not seem to have come forward as much as his maxilla seems to have developed forwards (assuming this has happened, which I believe is the case). Perhaps this is a result of the mandible not catching up with his rapid maxilla growth. I wonder if he now has a distance between his lower incisors and his upper incisors. On the other hand, perhaps the mandible has come forward sufficiently but the pouting lips make it look like it has not. The pouting lips could possibly have a lot to do with his massive flaring. The pictures compared above are from 21 weeks into his treatment, he posted pictures from 20 weeks into his treatment where massive flaring can be seen. The way I see it such major flaring should alone be responsible for a significant amount of unwelcomed lip pouting.

I have asked many doctors about whether a lower device usually is needed or not when palatal expanders are used and they explain that "sometimes it is needed, sometimes it is not since the mandible and the lower dental arch for some seem to change to match the changes in the maxilla and the upper dental arch".  One doctor explained that the younger the person the more likely a lower device is not needed. All in all I got the impression that it for adults was less common for the mandible to change to match the upper changes and that some intervention for the mandible/lower dental arch usually is needed. So if the case is so that Ronalds mandible/lower arch has not sufficiently developed to match the maxilla development then perhaps that could explain why his lower third of his side profile in the pictures above does not look quite right. If so then I wonder if things could have developed better had he done the process at a slower speed, or at a younger age. However, right now I do believe that the major reason as for why his lower third in the side profile looks the way it looks is because of major flaring (which can be seen in the pictures he shows from 20 weeks into treatment).

All in all I ask myself the following: Why not aim for doing the same thing in half the time to see if things develop better/in a more stable way? For example, so that teeth flaring can be avoided/controlled for during the process. Ronald clearly has changed very fast, he recently wrote on his blog that he took the device out a bit since he had changed so rapidly.

Edit: I will copy paste a message I wrote on Ronalds blog below:

"I do believe you have gotten forward growth of your maxilla but I now believe that there is a third option that may need to be examined in order for you to conclude that you have gotten true maxillary forward growth without unwelcomed side effects.

What if the gaps to a certain degree have been created by the teeth moving forwards without sufficient amounts of additional bone growth?

That would mean that the frontal teeth would see more and more flaring while the premolars/canines/incisors push each other forwards. Perhaps the constant force of the plastic oval thing communicates to the body that "more space is needed for the tongue" and as such growth/remodeling takes place to make for more space. But what happens if not enough bone can be grown/remodeled at the rate the constant stimuli by the oval thing signals is necessary? Then perhaps teeth would move even when not sufficient bone mass is being created. Could this be the cause of the teeth flaring?

Perhaps teeth flaring during the process should be avoided at all costs for this reason. Perhaps you have gone about the process at too high of a speed. After all you can only grow so much bone in a certain amount of time."

I am just brainstorming here, but I really do think that teeth flaring never is a good sign and I wonder why he has seen it during his FAGGA treatment.  I do believe it is the reason as for why his lips are pouting the way they pout right now.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
These are good questions! I'll do my best.

1) Did you have any device for your lower dental arch or was that not needed? In other words: Did your lower arch/mandible naturally change as the maxilla changed during AGGA treatment?

For most of the AGGA phase I had this controlled arch fixed on my lower arch:

http://www.johnsdental.com/retention/controlled-arch/

Actually, now I think of it, it's still on. That is, you will note the tubes on the sides that are suitable for arch wires for braces. When in the braces phase the wires passed through these.

I only had one premolar removed on my lower arch as a child, and my wisdom has erupted on the side that it was removed, so my lower arch is intact more or less, if a little asymmetrical. As such, my practitioner didn't need to change much to have the jaws come together nicely in the braces phase.

2) Did you need to use any other otrhodontic device after treatment with the AGGA was completed? Did you for example have to close gaps that had formed during the AGGA expansion?

Yes, I am currently in the braces phase and would be continuing that until completion but for the recent decision to go back to AGGA for more growth.

During this phase, the braces have done general ortho work - straightening teeth, fixing occlusions, etc. but more importantly, I have been slowly slowly slowly dragging my premolars forward from their original position to meet with my expanded 6 front teeth (I know there's a word for these!). 

These premolars only touched in the last few weeks, and during the review with my practitioner I had the choice of finishing with treatment or go back to the AGGA.

I thought a few more months to get even more forward growth would be worth it.

Had I chosen to continue with the braces phase right now I had two options - similar to Ron from MigraineHacks - I could continue to bring my existing teeth forward, two at a time or have implants in the spaces created by the AGGA. I wanted a full compliment of teeth back (and the security against relapse) so I was/am going to have implants.

3) Did you mostly see forward growth by AGGA treatment or did you also see widening? If so, what was your intermolar width before treatment and after treatment?

I didn't see any widening sorry and I don't know my pre-treatment width. I could find out my current width later tonight. That said, I had braces on as an adolescent and despite the extractions (GRRRR!) they were generally well done with a nice wide developed smile.

As for forward growth - this is the million dollar question. I've definitely seen dramatic changes in the structure of my face and profile, and resolved a number of health problems. Is that the mark of successful forward growth? It is for me. Will it be for other people on this forum? I'm not sure. I'm new to mewing, and what people want to achieve here.

4) Did you notice any changes to the length of your face? Did it increase, decrease, or remain the same?

This is an interesting question because I'm not entirely sure I can give you an answer. As Ron notes on his blog, initially the face is longer because blocks are inserted on your rear lower molars when the AGGA is installed so that your teeth can occlude forwards. These blocks are progressively ground down at each check up as the forward growth happens so that the teeth eventually meet again for the braces phase.

So yes, initially longer. 

The other thing is that my chin and lower jaw came a lot more forward and my face and neck posture has improved, so I actually hold my face and the angle of it differently to how I used to. I know there's a phrase for this too. So maybe this has made my face look longer too.

My jaw definitely looks broader, as do my cheekbones (and others have said so too) but this could just be from finally having my lower jaw in the correct place, and the inadvertent mewing/muscular development taught as part of the AGGA process. 

The other thing I'd say too is that a number of my lower teeth have been lifted up on one side because it was clear that my previous orthodontics gave me straight teeth for what was a slightly lopsided jaw (as the did not give a damn about my bite or neuromuscular considerations) so I've had to raise those teeth back up as part of the braces phase to straighten out my bottom teeth laterally (?). This might also make my face longer.

That said, when I look at photos of my face before and after, I wouldn't say that my face looks demonstrably longer. 

Hopefully that all helps?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
test151515
Active Member
Posted by: rogerramjet
These are good questions! I'll do my best.

[Text]

Hopefully that all helps?

Thanks a lot for all that information! Very useful for us all.

I have a few more questions I want to ask you:

1) Did you see similar expansion/growth rate as Ronald did or did it go significantly slower for you? In his blog he shows how he has created gaps between molars and canines of about 5-6 mm in just 20 weeks.

2) Did you notice any teeth flaring during the process? If so, did it go away naturally or did you use orthodontic treatment to deal with it?

3) Do you have any teeth flaring at all today?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
More good questions!

1) Did you see similar expansion/growth rate as Ronald did or did it go significantly slower for you? In his blog he shows how he has created gaps between molars and canines of about 5-6 mm in just 20 weeks.

Definitely did not see the same amount of growth that quickly; the man is a machine. I'd have to get exact measurements from my dentist, but I think I got about 8-9mm and 6-7mm on left and right side respectively in 10 months, maybe more as I'm reverse measuring now after a small amount would have been lost with braces.

This was a big source of frustration for me. It can go slowly and I imagine mileage may vary. I was told 4-6 months, and ended up about double that. I'm a young adult though so maybe that counted against me.

It's also not a pretty face towards the end, there can be some tipping and when you smile all you see is metal, gum and 6 tipping teeth. You need to know this going in and have robust self esteem. 

I had one photo taken of me a week before the appliance came off, and boy its an unpleasant reminder of the aesthetic price of 'breaking' your smile, to rebuild it properly. This was probably worse for me as I'd had orthodontic treatment and had a nice, albeit flawed, smile. Anyway, there's an aesthetic price during treatment.

Oh, I should say re: measurement of growth. My dentist didn't measure the gaps created as such; particularly as these gaps seem to be created unevenly (similar to Ron) and it's likely that your teeth will likely have to be slightly corrected back to midline anyway because of that uneven growth; mine certainly did. Measurements are rather taken from the base of the upper central incisors to the tip of your nose. I imagine there's some sort of golden ratio that needed to be achieved. I feel like 38mm was mentioned as being ideal, but I can't be remember with certainty?

2) Did you notice any teeth flaring during the process? If so, did it go away naturally or did you use orthodontic treatment to deal with it?

See above. Yes, towards the end of treatment there was definitely flaring. My dentist explained that this was exacerbated for me because I was in my appliance much longer than intended and it was reaching its end of life. I probably got lazy with my mewing too because at that point (8-10 months in) I was not pretty, a little down and out and just wanted to get in braces ASAP.

I cannot imagine this treatment being done without some sort of follow up orthodontics. Even if you mew properly and have the device on for an amount of time that doesn't cause flaring, you will get huge gaps between your incisors and premolars! Unless you're cool with big gaps you will have to close them somehow, whether moving premolars and molars forward, or implants.

I should also say that eating chips, sharp, hard foods around the times of the big gaps SUCKS. You will stab your gummy gaps repeatedly haha. It never gets any less painful 😉 

Long story short; I can't imagine how it would go away naturally. That said, I recently heard in a video Mike Mew saying that tipped teeth in constant use tended towards correcting, so who knows?

3) Do you have any teeth flaring at all today?

Now that I've had braces on for circa 8 months, the flaring is almost entirely gone, and I have lost very little of my growth. I know this because the gaps where my implants will go are still there, and still large but the flaring is goooooooone (goodbye Dracula face!). 🧛🏼‍♂️

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: rogerramjet
Posted by: Allixa

The front view transformation looks insanely good. But I have some questions about it. The first is that it looks touched up a bit. Especially if you look at the lips.. they almost look too smooth. I'm not sure if I'm right or not but it looks strange to my eyes.

The second is that in the front view you can clearly see the lips travel up towards the eyes, so the distance between the two should be shorter right? So why in the side view is the distance actually longer? I checked the ears and they are the same size showing that the photos are taken from the same distance.

Also the angle of his maxilla is less in the after photo too. The only way this could be true is if the fagga pushed his face bones backwards. Can anyone explain what's going on? Because I tried to in the other thread and this photo is falling in line with my prediction.

I drew the red line from his eye to the nostril to the center of the lips so head rotation wouldn't affect the measurement.

Maybe send Ronny a message with your questions on his website, and post back here what he says? 🙂

 

https://www.migrainehacks.com/

@Axilla Ronny explains in his blog that his face looks longer because of the molar build ups that will eventually be removed.

He also explains that his chin looks further back because of his new neck posture. His old neck posture compressed his vertebrae aggravating the nerves in his neck=migraines. His head posture made his head tilt back which in turn made his jaw position up and forward. Since his face has grown forward, his tongue is now in a more forward position and allows him to elongate his neck and tuck his chin somewhat, with out his tongue blocking his air passage. Most of this info is on his blog titled: Esther Gokhale's One Mistake. He has worked very hard to achieve this neck posture and was the reason for his venture into AGGA.

Keep in mind, Ronny's journey is about migraine cure. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/04/2018 8:30 pm
Page 2 / 12