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Fixed Anterior Growth Guidance Appliance (FAGGA) - Holy Grail? Gonial angle change, maxilla movement forwards and palate widening. Without surgery.  

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entelechy
Active Member

@theadonisking

if you cannot feel your tongue going up it is because it doesn't have space to go up in the right place of the palate.    Imagine a 6 foot man lying cramped on the ground in a 4 X 4 foot space.  When he tries to stands up, he will be able to touch his head on the ceiling (the tip of the palate) but he will not be able to both touch his head on the ceiling and press the  length of  his back  up to the butt on the the ceiling (the rest of the palate) because there literally is no space to do so.    Trying to the best of his ability, he will press his head on the ceilng and curl up his neck and upper back to it, with the butt hanging down unable to touch that last part of the ceiling (the soft palate).    This is a visual image of what a x mm long tongue can do in an x minus 10 mm length space.   

This description might be hard to imagine.  The best would be to see and ENT and ask them to look at a CT scan to see if your tongue is hanging low at the back of your mouth.  This would mean it is cramped for space and is doing the best you can.    You would need to expand the maxilla the extra millimeters to get more space for the tongue in order to allow it the space to rest comfortably  and rise up with no problem to the palate.     

 

A sign of the tongue not being able to be up on the soft palate is OAS, UARS or snoring.   It can also mean neck tension and shoulder tension, as if the tongue is not able to rest on the palate, and give  muscular support, the skull is less supported, and this compromises the skull-neck relationship, which strains the neck muscles.   Moreover, if the tongue is back low in the throat, blocking the airway, then the tendency is for people to tilt their chins up and keep head forward  to open the airway to be able to breathe.    This 'forward head posture' is typical, for example, of people with premolar extractions, whose maxilla and mandila and very retruded.  It will in the longrun cause neck strain and bad spinal posture overall, as the head is very heavy and must be supported by the tongue and the neck muscles, to keep alignment.

I may not be explaining this all correctly---I am not a doctor.   This is a compilation of what I learned from the 60 plus doctors I consulted for my own condition (ENTs and physical therapists specialized in swallowing were the best in explaining this to me).  

I did a year of rehabilitation of physical therapy for "swallowing", which terminated with the therapist saying there is no use in going further until I get the expansion as there is no way I could swallow any better than I was. 

A real swallow means the tongue rises all the way back to the soft palate and THEN you swallow.  Rather than pressing up to the top of the roof, and then using your throat muscles (which is what I do).

Have you consulted with an ENT or had a laser exam to check the position of your tongue when you swallow?   Easy exam:  laser goes down the nose and  you see on the screen exactly where your tongue is.   Where I live, this exam is available in the ENT office, and costs an additonal $30 to the consult.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

entelechy

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Posted : 02/10/2019 5:33 am
James
Eminent Member
Posted by: @entelechy

@james

Hello James,

Thanks for taking the time to give such a precise response.     A couple questions--

--what are the risks of MSE?    I have asked several doctors and they said "none" except that it does not work.  And yet I can't help thinking that playing around with breaking sutures in the skull might have its risk (especially as one cannot control which sutures split).    I checked online in research articles and could find no consequences.   Could I ask what you think they may be?

I don't know because I am not an expert, but I've heard of multiple other people refer to risks, including my osteopath. She has seen a MARPE case where the patient ended up with neurological problems and 70lbs weight gain. I asked her what had gone wrong, but she didn't know because it happened prior to the patient starting with her. Of course, this is likely not a representative, because osteopaths are more likely to see failed cases.

--with the greater tongue space with FAGGA.   I also needed that because I have a very retruded maxilla as well:  and accomplished 3 mm with arch-braces.  These 3 mm made for a great improvement (although still not enough).      Can I ask if you what I do?  Now that my tongue has space to actually be more on the palate, I use it minute-by-minute to press against the first molars to do my own expansion.  It seems to work as day by day I feel more comfortable (of course the flexible titannium arch wires help).    But it is certainly not palate but teeth I am trying to move.   My imw is only 28.5  so any push is helpful.

28.5mm is very small. I definitely would not be able to do good tongue-posture at that width.

--can I ask how uncomfortable FAGGA is and whether it takes up tongue space or makes it difficult to talk?    I see your concern is braces, which is not mine as I don't find braces so uncomfortable (albeit yes will be nicer without).  But these palate expanders frighten me.  Doesn't it feel like your mouth is cramped with some bulky object that makes the lack of mouth space even worse?

FAGGA does not take up a lot of space, but the tongue pad does cause a mild lisp. The discomfort is very minor.

My concern is not with having braces, my concern is having braces twice. I am currently in braces for Controlled Arch. It's uncomfortable, but I can see the results developing. What I am not excited about would be needing a second round of braces if I did MSE, because that would be a long treatment time in braces. Aesthetically, my upper arch will look good enough after Controlled Arch, because my starting width wasn't awful and I had very little upper crowding pre-treatment. So it would be annoying to have to do MSE for nasal breathing, which is why I'm doing septoplasty and turbinate reduction to try and fix my nose another way.

However, everyone's situation is different. For a patient with large sagittal and transverse deficiency, it might not be resolved in a single appliance, and doing multiple treatments might be necessary depending on the patient's goals. This is what Ronald Ead is doing, and this is what the other dentist I mentioned does by using AGGA followed by a Hyrax expander (he is in Australia).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/10/2019 7:43 pm
Lian
 Lian
Active Member

@minniesinatra

Hi! So great to hear that you are happy with your progress! Would you mind sharing a little bit more? How long was your treatment? What were the changes you noticed in your function and aesthetics? Any undesirable changes? Thank you so much! 

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Posted : 08/10/2019 5:21 am
April
New Member
Posted by: @james

 

However, everyone's situation is different. For a patient with large sagittal and transverse deficiency, it might not be resolved in a single appliance, and doing multiple treatments might be necessary depending on the patient's goals. This is what Ronald Ead is doing, and this is what the other orthodontist I mentioned does by using AGGA followed by a Hyrax expander (he is in Australia).

Hi James,

Are you able to tell me the name of the Aus orthodontist?

I'm a premolar extraction case. I'm seeing AMC in about a month's time for a consult, but would like to know of other orthos too. Thanks.

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Posted : 09/10/2019 10:00 am
entelechy
Active Member

@april

Hello April,   I met with Dr. Derek Mahony (in Sydney Australia) who is an orthodontist who does reversal for premolar extractions with FAGGA.   Very kind man.   You might want to contact him.

I too am a victim of premolar extractions, and am now working on advocacy to get help for victims.    Might I please ask you to take this survey on extraction consequences and pass it on to anyone you know who has had them?   It is important to get data on how many people have suffered from this standard orthodontic procedure, in order to make it "public", rather than a "secret" in the dental world.       I believe all our costs for reversal procedures must be reimbursed, and the orthodontic community be held to task to research treatment that effectively restores people's health and aesthetics, without jaw surger

Here is the survey.  Please do pass on -- Facebook and anywhere.

https://forms.gle/E77UZK4BnqaaCDvY6

I will note that I was lucky enough to be unaware of any of the symptoms when I was young.      However, the face 'collapses' for many premolar victims in their forties, and then the physical health consequences can become unbearable.     If you happen to be young and have any concerns now, I most urge you to do reversal now, no matter what it costs, or how much time it takes, to be saved from future horrific consequences (as happened in my case, and others I have spoken to). 

entelechy

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Posted : 09/10/2019 4:48 pm
entelechy
Active Member

ps.  I am still curious why someone would do AGGA first, and then Hyrax.  Also:  does anyone know the difference between HYRAX and MSE or MARPE?  

entelechy

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Posted : 09/10/2019 4:51 pm
paradise
Eminent Member
Posted by: @entelechy

@april

Hello April,   I met with Dr. Derek Mahony (in Sydney Australia) who is an orthodontist who does reversal for premolar extractions with FAGGA.   Very kind man.   You might want to contact him.

I too am a victim of premolar extractions, and am now working on advocacy to get help for victims.    Might I please ask you to take this survey on extraction consequences and pass it on to anyone you know who has had them?   It is important to get data on how many people have suffered from this standard orthodontic procedure, in order to make it "public", rather than a "secret" in the dental world.       I believe all our costs for reversal procedures must be reimbursed, and the orthodontic community be held to task to research treatment that effectively restores people's health and aesthetics, without jaw surger

Here is the survey.  Please do pass on -- Facebook and anywhere.

https://forms.gle/E77UZK4BnqaaCDvY6

I will note that I was lucky enough to be unaware of any of the symptoms when I was young.      However, the face 'collapses' for many premolar victims in their forties, and then the physical health consequences can become unbearable.     If you happen to be young and have any concerns now, I most urge you to do reversal now, no matter what it costs, or how much time it takes, to be saved from future horrific consequences (as happened in my case, and others I have spoken to). 

@entelechy, thank you for sharing. Interesting that Dr. Mahony also uses FAGGA. Does he do anything to reverse the extractions at the lower jaw as well? Also, does he use implants to close the FAGGA gaps, or use Controlled Arch to bring the back molars forward?

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Posted : 09/10/2019 4:57 pm
entelechy
Active Member

@paradise

He told me he believes the spaces should be replaced by implants:  he did not think pulling forward from the molars was a good idea as one loses space and we need all the space we can get in our reduced palates.  However perhaps each case is different.    I would be curious to learn more about the debate between whether implants or moving forward from the molars:   I have heard plus and minus for both methods.  Might anyone be up on this debate?

As for lower jaw:   my impression is that you always have to try to open the 2 spaces on the bottom, to have the jaws match. However it is more difficult as the bone is more solid in the lower jaw.   I myself have been expanding top and bottom just with braces.   In 8 months, I have gained  about 5 mm expansion on the top and 3 on the bottom.  So it is true that the top moves  easier than the bottom (this also because of the tongue) but it seems possible to open the bottom teeth as well.    I believe it depends on the person  

entelechy

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Posted : 09/10/2019 5:21 pm
paradise
Eminent Member

@entelechy

What did he mean that pulling molars forward would lose space? In theory the Controlled Arch should keep the front teeth in place while the back teeth are pulled forward?

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Posted : 09/10/2019 6:35 pm
entelechy
Active Member

yes, I see your objection.  I really didn't quite understand what he meant;  it was something about gaining all this space with expansion, only to close it which he seemed to suggest would necessarily narrow the arch again.  I am not sure.  I think this is a question that needs to be answered by someone more knowledgeable.  I would really like to know the answer.

 

Anyone able to answer this?

 

entelechy

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/10/2019 6:42 pm
Robbie343
New Member

Hello new to the forum here.

 32 yr old male. I have a 5 mm deep bite and I am starting AGGA in 20 days. Anybody on here have experience with treating a deep bite using this appliance. Ortho said they will move my maxilla 5 to 8 mm forward resulting in 10 to 16 mm in lower mandible advancement. My mandible is compressed but I have no pain. Also to note my neck posture has drastically changed for the worse over the course of a year due to an injury making me less active which definitely made the mandible compress further imo.

I got a frenectomy, am working with a myofunctional therapist and an osteopath. 

No premolar extractions, teeth are straight, bottom front 6 have spaces. Deep bite is the only problem

I see a wealth of knowledge on here and look forward to following this forum. I wasn't sure if I should start a thread with my questions or revived this one.

p.s Has anyone seen any skin benefits post AGGA treatment of any other appliance or even just mewing? Since my neck and jaw position has changed my skin has become ultra sensitive and dull over the course of one year. Any facial muscular changes? My myofunctional therapist has me doing some cheek lip and jaw exercises ( I am using the same one Ronny Ead used, she's in my area)

Thanks!

Rob

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Posted : 02/11/2019 8:23 pm
davewheeler87
Active Member

Update ..... I am out of AGGA I got 7 mms of forward growth. Everything went great. Mandible came forward.... Breathing and swallowing is better. I have a nice jaw line.... Its hard to say if it has improved my sleeping because there is so much [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] in my mouth its hard to tell. The molar pads are easily the worst part of all of this. I hate them they are so uncomfortable and they make me clench at night. I haven't been in CAB long but I can already notice massive changes.... I also think my nasal breathing has improved since being in CAB.. 10-12 months to go and I will finally be finished with this process for good!!! I look forward to posting before and afters in here so y'all can judge lol.

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Posted : 04/11/2019 9:10 pm
theadonisking
Active Member

i had a consult with an LVI dentist for AGGA, but she says i will only know the type of chin i can get after the cone beam scan to see the chin shape.

i dont want this result (see below), i know its from a non-LVI dentist (dr Kundel) so probably not optimal but still looks like he has no chin, what do you guys think ?

my profile for reference:

 

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Posted : 09/11/2019 4:51 pm
entelechy
Active Member

why would you think FAGGA would affect the chin --if it work on the maxilla?   Sure the mandible will come forward, but an extremely recessed chin as in the photo, no matter how much the mandible came forward, is still going to be recessed.   

entelechy

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Posted : 09/11/2019 5:23 pm
theadonisking
Active Member

well cause my mandible is trapped by the recessed maxilla, and when i advance my mandible forward i have a "chin", i think its also related to my mandibular incisors which are proclined so chin is more absent too.

i just hope i'll have more chin than the guy in the after pic, seems like his incisors are proclined based on the lower lip also

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Posted : 09/11/2019 5:49 pm
entelechy
Active Member

would need to see a photo to even guess.     My mandible is also trapped by my maxilla but the chin is not so  drooping as this man in the photo.   I think it depends on how your chin is now.  If when you advance your mandible, it looks fine, this would be indicative.  Yiou might also consider genioplasticity if you really are concerned with the aesthetics, although that has a huge risk of nerve loss (in chin sensation).    For me, the health issues are most important.  Did you have extractions?

 

 

entelechy

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Posted : 09/11/2019 5:53 pm
entelechy
Active Member

oh--that is you in the photo?   your chin is certainly not as bad as the man with the beard.   Hard to say what will happen once you advance your maxilla, but could be fine enough.    And then just focus on health issues.  Most impt!

 

entelechy

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Posted : 09/11/2019 5:56 pm
theadonisking
Active Member

it's me in the picture lol, i can take one with the mandible fully forward to give you an idea of what i mean.

The drooping is fat due to the face recession lol, when i bring my mandible forward it doesnt "droop" anymore.

I would prefer a chin implant over a genioplasty for sure after AGGA, i'll see the dentist told me most of the changes appear during CA braces phase

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Posted : 09/11/2019 5:57 pm
theadonisking
Active Member
Posted by: @entelechy

oh--that is you in the photo?   your chin is certainly not as bad as the man with the beard.   Hard to say what will happen once you advance your maxilla, but could be fine enough.    And then just focus on health issues.  Most impt!

 

i'm the one with the beard lol i said see my profile for reference, the before/after are pictures are from a patient of Dr, Kundel who is not LVI, they are on his website

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/11/2019 5:58 pm
theadonisking
Active Member
Posted by: @theadonisking
Posted by: @entelechy

oh--that is you in the photo?   your chin is certainly not as bad as the man with the beard.   Hard to say what will happen once you advance your maxilla, but could be fine enough.    And then just focus on health issues.  Most impt!

 

i'm the one with the beard lol i said see my profile for reference, the before/after are pictures are from a patient of Dr, Kundel who is not LVI, they are on his website

like the before after is a before / after of AGGA, so that's what i mean by i hope i'll have a better result than that, i dont see much difference in his chin.

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Posted : 09/11/2019 5:59 pm
theadonisking
Active Member
Posted by: @entelechy

oh--that is you in the photo?   your chin is certainly not as bad as the man with the beard.   Hard to say what will happen once you advance your maxilla, but could be fine enough.    And then just focus on health issues.  Most impt!

 

lol like i mentioned, i'm the one with the beard, the other guy in the after has already done AGGA, i took it on Dr Kundel's website. I was hoping to get a better result than him since his chin didn't advance much.

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Posted : 09/11/2019 6:10 pm
entelechy
Active Member

I think his chin did advance---not so much, but substantially.   What are your structural issues?   no extractions?   reduced maxilla for  what reason?

 

 

entelechy

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Posted : 09/11/2019 6:24 pm
theadonisking
Active Member
Posted by: @entelechy

I think his chin did advance---not so much, but substantially.   What are your structural issues?   no extractions?   reduced maxilla for  what reason?

 

 

i had wisdom teeth extracted only, had braces as a teenager.

Mouthbreathing from youth, nose was blocked due to allergies most of the time, low tongue posture.

I have a class II, steep palate and lack of anterior tongue space which means i can't mew, IMW is decent at around 38mm.

My main issue is sleep, i want to be able to nose breathe at night and avoid having sleep apnea in the future, thats the main reason i want to do AGGA and also reduce clenching and overuse of teeth.

Neck posture is not forward but tilted up so my shoulders/thoracic spine have a lot of tightness, i can't fully flex or internally rotate my shoulders.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/11/2019 6:35 pm
entelechy
Active Member

@theadonisking

Hi--I have some  similar issues: narrow palate, and chin tilted up, neck issues.   I am looking into SFOT instead of FAGGA and MSE for palate expansion. 

entelechy

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/11/2019 3:17 am
Colbiew
New Member

@abdulrahman

I can answer this because I had this exact question... I need upper and lower expansion as I have a narrow palate. You cannot expand the upper without expanding the lower so the devices you get to keep your bite aligned are upper and lower expanders. The FAGGA is fixed and only gives lateral growth, it will not drop palate. A DNA like device does both horizontal (widening) and lateral (frontal face forward growth). Because I need frontal and horizontal growth I am getting the dna like device. I will share pictures once I get them. 

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Posted : 21/11/2019 10:05 pm
theadonisking
Active Member
Posted by: @colbiew

@abdulrahman

I can answer this because I had this exact question... I need upper and lower expansion as I have a narrow palate. You cannot expand the upper without expanding the lower so the devices you get to keep your bite aligned are upper and lower expanders. The FAGGA is fixed and only gives lateral growth, it will not drop palate. A DNA like device does both horizontal (widening) and lateral (frontal face forward growth). Because I need frontal and horizontal growth I am getting the dna like device. I will share pictures once I get them. 

Controlled arch braces after AGGA give widening of the arch up to 5 mm and will help with vaulted palate from what my dentist told me

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/11/2019 2:44 pm
adam-gary
New Member

I would also consider the DNA appliance. The DNA is much easier to tolerate since it is removable. Also the DNA is much better at lateral growth as well as anterior growth. Most people who have facial development issues have height of the bite issues (aka vertical dimension) and TMJ issues. The DNA has a plastic bite plane like a night guard where these bite issues can be worked out. The DNA is also a "functional device" or a device that can assist in bringing the lower jaw forward. The AGGA does not have a bite plane. Here are a few links that are helpful: https://marylandholisticdentist.com/agga-appliance-vs-dna/

https://marylandholisticdentist.com/dna-appliance

 

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Posted : 23/11/2019 8:47 pm
theadonisking
Active Member
Posted by: @adam-gary

I would also consider the DNA appliance. The DNA is much easier to tolerate since it is removable. Also the DNA is much better at lateral growth as well as anterior growth. Most people who have facial development issues have height of the bite issues (aka vertical dimension) and TMJ issues. The DNA has a plastic bite plane like a night guard where these bite issues can be worked out. The DNA is also a "functional device" or a device that can assist in bringing the lower jaw forward. The AGGA does not have a bite plane. Here are a few links that are helpful: https://marylandholisticdentist.com/agga-appliance-vs-dna/

https://marylandholisticdentist.com/dna-appliance

 

But with AGGA and LVI everything is tested to ensure optimal physiologic bite, which is not the case with all DNA practitioners

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/11/2019 11:37 pm
hugo
 hugo
New Member

Hey, I would be really grateful if someone could give me some advice/point me in the right direction. I've read so much about maxillas and teeth and surgery in the past few weeks, but I just keep getting more confused. 

I'm 21 and have a mild underbite. I went to see a dentist recently and he said he would be able to move my lower teeth back 2 - 3 mm to correct it. However, it's not quite that mild so my lower lip would still be noticeably in front of my upper lip. He also pointed out that my upper dental arch was too narrow, so he would widen it using a palatal expander. The other option was jaw surgery, which he thought would be overkill but was still willing to refer me for.

After reading about all these expanding appliances like FAGGA, I was thinking that expanding my maxilla and largely leaving my lower teeth alone could be the ideal solution ? Would using FAGGA and then a lateral expanding device fix my underbite? I'm confused because people's mandibles also seem to move forward in the before/after photos. Obviously I don't want to expand my mandible ... right? If it's relevant, I also have a mildly recessed chin. It's almost good because it balances out the underbite and so I look normal at first glance.

(also, could people recommend some sort of beginner thing? there are so many acronyms and everyone disagrees with each other...)

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Posted : 02/12/2019 8:22 am
Faggapatient
New Member

Hi everyone, Fagga patient here. I had it on from April of 2019 -  October 2019.  Saw a dentist out in LA (FBI-trained I believe) 8mm of growth on both sides. I decided to use it for my sleep apnea and hoped it would help with my narrow/recessed jaw. I started with a slight overbite (upper teeth ahead of my lower), but it was nothing crazy or noticeable unless you were looking. Only orthodontists point this out my overbite. Also, I never had an orthodontist as a kid, only thing I had on my teeth were cavity fillings lol. I've just always had poor oral posture, mouth breathing, etc.

Starting Anatomy: Skinny/Athletic build, restricted/narrow airway with not recessed mandible so not much of a side profile, forward head posture, mouth breather, obstructed 

Here are my thoughts -

Perceived Positives:

-As soon as the bite pads were put on and my lower jaw could slide forward I noticed a release in debilitating neck strain and back strain

-Correct posture is much easier to hold

- Mandible sliding forward brings my lower jaw/masseters (I guess) further out and so my face does look a little wider just from that 

-Profile has improved

Perceived Negatives:

- Overbite is now very apparent

-Face looks longer...but now I have more of a chin so there's a trade off. I already had a long/narrow face and I'm not too self conscious about it but I know people aren't happy to see that.

-I don't understand how the mandible stays forward and can naturally rest forward and do all its function while in a forward. I can hold forward but it wants to slowly fall back as soon as I lose conscious effort. Perhaps a lot of retraining needs to be done to get rid of 26 years of bad posture. My sense is unlikely. When I sleep, my jaw 100% falls back.

I think something like this is better for someone with an underbet (mandible is ahead of the maxilla). Any thoughts? Anyone with a starting overbite, recessed mandible, forward neck posture, mouth breather, high vauled/narrow palate that thinks the AGGA helped them?

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Posted : 03/12/2019 2:09 pm
theadonisking
Active Member
Posted by: @faggapatient

Hi everyone, Fagga patient here. I had it on from April of 2019 -  October 2019.  Saw a dentist out in LA (FBI-trained I believe) 8mm of growth on both sides. I decided to use it for my sleep apnea and hoped it would help with my narrow/recessed jaw. I started with a slight overbite (upper teeth ahead of my lower), but it was nothing crazy or noticeable unless you were looking. Only orthodontists point this out my overbite. Also, I never had an orthodontist as a kid, only thing I had on my teeth were cavity fillings lol. I've just always had poor oral posture, mouth breathing, etc.

Starting Anatomy: Skinny/Athletic build, restricted/narrow airway with not recessed mandible so not much of a side profile, forward head posture, mouth breather, obstructed 

Here are my thoughts -

Perceived Positives:

-As soon as the bite pads were put on and my lower jaw could slide forward I noticed a release in debilitating neck strain and back strain

-Correct posture is much easier to hold

- Mandible sliding forward brings my lower jaw/masseters (I guess) further out and so my face does look a little wider just from that 

-Profile has improved

Perceived Negatives:

- Overbite is now very apparent

-Face looks longer...but now I have more of a chin so there's a trade off. I already had a long/narrow face and I'm not too self conscious about it but I know people aren't happy to see that.

-I don't understand how the mandible stays forward and can naturally rest forward and do all its function while in a forward. I can hold forward but it wants to slowly fall back as soon as I lose conscious effort. Perhaps a lot of retraining needs to be done to get rid of 26 years of bad posture. My sense is unlikely. When I sleep, my jaw 100% falls back.

I think something like this is better for someone with an underbet (mandible is ahead of the maxilla). Any thoughts? Anyone with a starting overbite, recessed mandible, forward neck posture, mouth breather, high vauled/narrow palate that thinks the AGGA helped them?

If you're still in the bite pads its normal that face looks longer, are you in CAB now ?

With CAB your bite will be perfected and mandible will stay with maxilla, but at night you will need the micro2 appliance to keep the mandible from falling down.

Are you able to mew or you lack tongue space ? Myself due to my vaulted palate i cant really mew or suction hold, i think i also lack forward space.

I had a consult for AGGA (you can see my side profile on this page) and will probably start next year, seems to be the best option for recessed maxilla/mandible so far with the most detailed protocol and testing

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Posted : 04/12/2019 1:37 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: @rogerramjet
Posted by: SUGR1

...

Timothy Bromage is part of the Facial Beauty Institute Faculty and is spearheading studies on the effect of Agga. There are no published studies because the data collection is ongoing. 

...

The core people and brain trust  behind this are holding an international symposium on this early next year (2019) in Sydney where there are claims of some big reveals. 

I'm all about this; thanks for sharing. Please keep us updated with any inside info you have.

...

Just swinging by here to see if anyone has managed to get their hands on this meta study that was supposed to be spearheaded by Bromage?

(@SUGR1)?

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Posted : 09/12/2019 12:47 am
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