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Vibration Therapy to accelerate bone growth/formation  

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Apollo
Reputable Member

I noticed in one of Dr. Mew's videos (  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqqirRw_8bw ) that he mentions the use of a "sonic device." He proposes treating the sutures on one side of the patient's face with this device in an effort to make them more malleable, theoretically countering asymmetry during palate expansion and extraoral protraction. The only cognitive link I could make to such a "sonic device" is the use of noninvasive ultrasonic waves to break up gallstones and kidney stones in a procedure called extracorporeal shockwave therapy (ESWT). I looked it up and it turns out there are a number of scientifically dubious but intriguing musculoskeletal applications for ESWT.

Do you think this is the device Dr. Mew is referring to? I suppose there isn't any way to access this kind of treatment without professional supervision.

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Posted : 18/02/2018 7:45 pm
TGW liked
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Hello, I'm a new poster and interested in this idea. I'd heard on a podcast recently that slapping skin will increase bone density at the site of the slap... something to do with the sound of the slap. I hope it's true because I've been tapping and slapping my face as an anti-aging measure for the past 5 years, around when I started mewing. As for ultrasound, it first came on my radar around 2005 when there was some talk about using ultrasound to regrow teeth.

I just looked in to this, and there are ultrasound devices marketed as "bone growth stimulators". Here's a study which delves in to it a bit. Thanks for sharing your idea.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 19/02/2018 3:17 am
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I'm pretty sure that this is what he is talking about:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-intensity_pulsed_ultrasound

There's many devices that do this, and it has now started to be rolled out as a product for orthodontists / dentists that accelerates the treatment time for braces. Here's two such examples of this device, there are many more: 

http://aevosystem.com/patients/

http://acceledent.com/

AcceleDent Optima’s patented SoftPulse Technology® applies precisely calibrated vibrations called micropulses that transmit through the roots of your teeth to the surrounding bone. This gentle vibration helps increase the cellular activity and speeds the rate in which your teeth can move.

It's been effective in growing bone tissue as well: http://www.colgate.com/en/us/oc/oral-health/cosmetic-dentistry/adult-orthodontics/article/ada-07-novel-ultra-sound-system

Studies are showing that it is stimulating both the bone absorption/formation cells as well as the nervous pathways. This sort of thing has already long been established to help bone growth at fracture sites:  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2762251/

Acceledent claims to speed up treatment times anywhere between 50-75%, with patient results to back it up. It would be incredibly useful to see if some application of this technology could speed up growth at suture sites by 75%+. 

When I first looked into getting my hands on some sort of device like this, I found that people are selling their used systems online in the low hundreds. 

But the device itself is very low tech, just marketed as something advanced for $1000. All it does is vibrate: a vibrating toothbrush attached to a mouthguard could achieve this, and the reviews I've seen from users say as much. Which makes me happy, because that means we can make one cheap at home. 

I've put a reminder to myself to ask for an update on this tech use in the Q&A video. 

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Posted : 19/02/2018 3:49 am
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Allixa
Estimable Member

A few months ago I experimented with using a vibrating toothbrush along my palatal sutures while doing some expansion by hand. My reasoning for doing this was to try and copy the Acceledent system for quicker results of bone movement. I set up a routine of 3x a day palate massages with the toothbrush and then some lateral facepulling with my thumbs. I managed to get some expansion this way but I have no way of knowing if the vibrating toothbrush helped or not. Because I didn't have a way of retaining the expansion, I didn't stay consistent and let things fall back to where they started.

I'm planning on using that technique again along with others when I get the expansion device in. I'm going to be using the method that you did, where I wait for the expansion to happen before I turn the screw. I'm not sure how to quantify whether or not the vibration is helpful but maybe if I get very rapid results we can make a guess that it was.

Also as far as the vibration is concerned, even something as simple as humming should be helpful. The entire skull resonates when a person speaks/sings/hums and so if the idea of vibration unlocking bone changes is legit, then doing singing/humming exercises once a day or so should be helpful. I doubt that most people would be open minded enough to consider this though.

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Posted : 19/02/2018 10:47 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

I read about the Acceledent system on claimingpower, and also explored the secondhand cost, but I started to wonder if applying the device as intended (with their mouthpiece vibrating on the teeth) would make me more likely to get dental movement rather than skeletal movement. In other words, if the the device does what it claims (accelerating the remodeling of bone around the roots of the teeth to make them respond to orthodontic pressures more rapidly), would this mean that it would be easier for my expander to cause teeth tipping rather than suture separation? I have a sonicare toothbrush and like @allixa, I have experimented with using it to massage my palate and I have even traced the vibrating handle across the locations of my maxillary sutures outside my mouth. I haven't seen any discernible effect, but I also haven't been consistent. You might be correct that Dr. Mew was referring to this kind of "low intensity pulsed ultrasound," which seems like a similar concept but maybe lower intensity for longer periods than the ESWT device I mentioned. In the video, he definitely describes treating the extra-oral suture lines rather than the kind of mouthpieces used with the Acceledent and Aevo systems.

 

 

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Posted : 19/02/2018 11:11 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

@admin could you change the title of this thread to "Vibration Therapy" since my guess about the ESWT is probably incorrect, and the discussion has expanded to other modalities?

I did a little more research. It looks like Acceledent and similar low intensity pulsed ultrasound devices vibrate with a frequency of about 30 Hz and a force of about 20g. This means that the device is oscillating approximately 30 times per second. For comparison, chewing also applies a cyclical application and release of pressure at about 1 or 2 Hz, but with degrees of magnitude more force. The force of a palate expander or extra-oral protraction or conventional braces would also be significantly greater than the force of vibration, but much less than the force of chewing. A 2003 study used a device vibrating at a higher frequency (between 100 and 250 Hz), and reported reduction in pain after orthodontic adjustments ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12747073?ordinalpos=13&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum ). ESWT is performed at a frequency up to about 30Hz but a higher force and for a shorter duration. The latest models of sonicare toothbrushes vibrate at a frequency of 258 Hz, and this is consistent with the range of about 250 to 300 Hz typical of electric toothbrushes. So although the frequency of electric toothbrushes is significantly higher than Acceledent, the force is about the same. It is still unclear to me if evidence shows that the tenfold lower frequency is more effective at inducing bone remodeling. However, let's imagine for a moment that the toothbrush vibration is still effective. As I said in my previous post, it seems like the vibration should be directed at the sutures rather than the teeth. Sonicare sells an attachment for tongue cleaning that is flat and slightly wider than the brush head. It might be possible to hold this against the midpalatal suture for 20 minutes a day, and maybe even against some of the other maxillary sutures on the face. Other options to consider that could treat more of the suture in a session might include electric massagers or sex toy vibrators, but this would require more research about their frequency and force of vibration. I also found 3D-printed attachments for toothbrushes being sold as sex toy vibrators. Someone with more know-how than me might be able to design a similar 3D-printed attachment that contours better to the shape of the palate and face.

This 2003 study is particularly interesting because it talks about using vibration to induce bone growth at cranial sutures in rabbit models: 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12619937?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

The rabbits in the study were 6 weeks old, so they were still growing. The frequency of vibration used in the study was 1 Hz and the force was just over 500 grams.

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Posted : 19/02/2018 3:09 pm
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Sclera
Estimable Member

Since I've backed off on my endonasal release, my chiropractor and I have been doing another form of suture release -- vibration, but using a theragun: https://theragun.com/

TheraGun = 2500 3200 RPM @15-32Hz

It’s pretty intense. He basically jackhammers all along my sutures, which he says creates microtears in the sutures, and then with his hands presses and reforms my skull. Slowly, eventually, and more subtly, this vibration should create the same results as NCR. He says he has cured tmjd and migraines in a couple of his patients with this.

What’s interesting is that my left side of my face is my recessed side, but the right back of my skull is very tender and sensitive to the touch, which makes sense, given the concept of zig-zag patterning of dysfunction.

I’ll admit, I’m worried about adverse effects, but so far when I do this and then work on my exercises, I feel a lot more activation in the muscles on my recessed side. Even now, just in relaxed proper posture, it almost feels like my left side is more forward than it used to be, which I know if true is infinitesimal.

My chiropractor has been really great with regards to my scoliosis, I’m about 70% better in only a couple of months and after a number of pauses due to other medical things. But I think it might be time to find a cranial-specific professional who is more understanding of asymmetry and skull development.

 

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Posted : 06/06/2018 11:17 am
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Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Sclera

Since I've backed off on my endonasal release, my chiropractor and I have been doing another form of suture release -- vibration, but using a theragun: https://theragun.com/

TheraGun = 2500 3200 RPM @15-32Hz

This is really interesting! Thanks for sharing. I've been doing something similar with a handheld massager along my suture lines while wearing my palate expander and it seems to help, but (as I've mentioned before), most sources suggest that the lower frequency devices (like this Theragun your chiropractor is using in the 15-32Hz range) would be more effective for this application.

Posted by: Apollo

In my thread about using vibration to try and enhance shifting along the cranial sutures ( https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/extracorporeal-shock-wave-therapy/ ), I mentioned that low intensity pulsed ultrasound devices like acceledent vibrate at a lower frequency (around 30Hz) as compared to electric toothbrushes (250-300Hz) and handheld massagers (100+Hz). I get the impression that lower frequencies might be more effective, but I've been using a handheld massager against my face while wearing my expander. I feel like it might be helping. I might be imagining, but it feels like the expander is not as tight in my mouth after holding the massager at different locations on my maxilla and along my maxillary suture lines for 10-20 minute session. I could also hear some cracking/popping in my right ear toward the end of my last vibration treatment.

Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: Allixa

Do you mind linking to the type of device you are using to vibrate your sutures? It sounds like it is working well and actually helping.

Like I said, the research I read suggests that a lower frequency vibration might be better, but this is the kind of handheld massager I am using because I already owned it:

 

I could be imagining, but it seems to make the expander feel slightly less tight if I hold it against my maxilla and along the sutures while wearing my expander for 10-20 minutes. Occasionally I have heard a cracking/popping sound in my right ear, especially during sessions soon after I have turned the screw. That being said, my expansion has progressed slower than the 1mm per week rate Dr. Mew recommends, so it's not like this is working wonders.

At $600, the Theragun is out of my price range, but with even the limited success I've had with my massager, I believe this concept is legitimate. As I understand it, the virbration is just relaxing the sutures and it is up to some other force like tongue pressure, a palate expander, facepulling, or manual manipulation to induce any movement.

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Posted : 06/06/2018 2:16 pm
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Keengo
Trusted Member

Do you think an ordinary vibrating/neck massaging device can benefit here?

I have one that's pretty convenient. I think it has like 6 sides with different shapes and has heating. It doesn't oscillate or anything -- it just vibrates/buzzes. Could this benefit bone remodeling? How so? Increasing turnover or what?

I thought of using this on frontal and side zygos, mandible, etc. In conjunction with mewing this might be beneficial work, no?

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 06/06/2018 10:10 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

Do you think an ordinary vibrating/neck massaging device can benefit here?

I have one that's pretty convenient. I think it has like 6 sides with different shapes and has heating. It doesn't oscillate or anything -- it just vibrates/buzzes. Could this benefit bone remodeling? How so? Increasing turnover or what?

I thought of using this on frontal and side zygos, mandible, etc. In conjunction with mewing this might be beneficial work, no?

That's exactly what I described above. As indicated, handheld massagers generally vibrate in the 100+ Hz range which is said to be higher than ideal. Devices like acceledent or the theragun that sclera mentioned vibrate somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-32 Hz. However, I cited a study using vibration at 100+ Hz which reported less pain after orthodontic adjustments, and my own experience is that it has helped with my palate expander. I think most of the effect is relaxing the sutures, allowing the bones to move easier, but that might also mean it is easier for the bones to relapse back without consistent force. TGW linked some studies above which suggest there's also an impact on bone remodeling.

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Posted : 07/06/2018 3:27 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: Keengo

Do you think an ordinary vibrating/neck massaging device can benefit here?

I have one that's pretty convenient. I think it has like 6 sides with different shapes and has heating. It doesn't oscillate or anything -- it just vibrates/buzzes. Could this benefit bone remodeling? How so? Increasing turnover or what?

I thought of using this on frontal and side zygos, mandible, etc. In conjunction with mewing this might be beneficial work, no?

That's exactly what I described above. As indicated, handheld massagers generally vibrate in the 100+ Hz range which is said to be higher than ideal. Devices like acceledent or the theragun that sclera mentioned vibrate somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-32 Hz. However, I cited a study using vibration at 100+ Hz which reported less pain after orthodontic adjustments, and my own experience is that it has helped with my palate expander. I think most of the effect is relaxing the sutures, allowing the bones to move easier, but that might also mean it is easier for the bones to relapse back without consistent force. TGW linked some studies above which suggest there's also an impact on bone remodeling.

Good to know. Do you just apply this massager thingy to a specific area while wearing the expander at the same time or prior/after certain times? Because you can easily reach the front of the maxilla and even the sides by going under/between the zygos using these handheld devices. Also the zygos too of course.

I tried experimenting and pushed the device as far close to the bone (zygo sides of skull/temporal process) as possible to literally touch it. It basically whirs/vibrates your whole skull and feels weird, but it's directly touching so it's stimulating the bone 100% directly if you do it. I don't know if this is ideal, or if you should just lightly touch the skin or directly penetrate the bone directly with it.....

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 08/06/2018 1:06 am
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

Good to know. Do you just apply this massager thingy to a specific area while wearing the expander at the same time or prior/after certain times? Because you can easily reach the front of the maxilla and even the sides by going under/between the zygos using these handheld devices. Also the zygos too of course.

I tried experimenting and pushed the device as far close to the bone (zygo sides of skull/temporal process) as possible to literally touch it. It basically whirs/vibrates your whole skull and feels weird, but it's directly touching so it's stimulating the bone 100% directly if you do it. I don't know if this is ideal, or if you should just lightly touch the skin or directly penetrate the bone directly with it.....

For my routine, I put in my expander and then move the massager around my face. Like you mentioned, one of the areas I target with more pressure is pushing up/out on the zygomas, but I also trace around the other maxillary suture lines. I use at least enough pressure to feel the vibrations in my bones and sometimes more pressure if it is in an advantageous direction for maxillary movement. For me this elicits shifting/popping sounds in my ears, especially if I have advanced the expander screw or it is the first time wearing the expander for the day and it feels tight in my mouth. The expander generally feels less tight after the vibration session. How helpful this would be for those using oral posture alone or manual manipulations, I'm not sure, but I suspect it would at least help relax the sutures.

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Posted : 08/06/2018 2:12 pm
qwerty135
Eminent Member
Posted by: @admin

I've put a reminder to myself to ask for an update on this tech use in the Q&A video. 

@admin Did you ever hear anything back about the LIPUS device and its utility in softening sutures?

Regarding the toothbrush discussion, I think the frequency of LIPUS is typically much higher when healing fractures. According to this paper( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2762261/ ) , LIPUS therapy for fractures is on average 1.5 MHz, or 1.5 million hertz, while the Sonicare vibrating toothbrush is around 500 Hz. In comparison, Acceledent is 30 Hz. So, it looks like the frequency has some effect depending on its usage...Perhaps a higher frequency can stimulate more action on a cellular level(ie generation of osteoclasts and osteoblasts?). 

Also, another similar therapy with effects like LIPUS is low level laser therapy, or photobiomodulation therapy, which has some limited evidence regarding orthodontics/palate expansion( http://sci-hub.tw/10.1016/j.ajodo.2011.10.023 , https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320639956_The_Effect_of_Low_Level_Laser_Therapy_on_Bone_Healing_After_Rapid_Maxillary_Expansion_A_Systematic_Review ) The therapy seemed to help with accelerating the split of the midpalatal suture and with healing after the split.

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Posted : 29/09/2019 8:12 pm
printfactory
Eminent Member

@apollo

Do you still use the massager? Have you seen results from it?

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Posted : 30/09/2019 6:40 am
James
Eminent Member

I've been using a vibration tool, red/infrared light therapy while in AGGA. I see no evidence that they have accomplished anything, because my growth in AGGA was no better than other adults'. However, there's no way to know if my treatment time was optimal. I am also using Acceledent in Controlled Arch. Acceledent definitely helps with the discomfort of braces. I can't tell if it is speeding things up, but the pace seems pretty good. My dentist thinks Acceledent will reduce the projected treatment time of 14 months down to around 12, but that's just a guess.

I have used the vibration tool on my face, cheekbones, and mandible, but there is zero evidence of it doing anything. Sometimes on some of these forums, people make it sound like the skull is like clay and can easily reform and change, but this is not my experience, even when combining AGGA + myofunctional therapy + lip-taping + vibration + laser therapy. At least not at 9 months when my post-AGGA scan was taken. There were zero skeletal changes, only the dentoavleolar changes typical from AGGA.

Orthopulse is another orthodontic accelerator using red/infrared light.

Personally, I think Acceledent or Orthopulse make the most sense, because at least they are studied, and the protocol is given to you. Otherwise, when using vibration or light therapy on your own, it's impossible to know whether it is doing anything or whether your treatment sessions are long enough.

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Posted : 02/10/2019 7:59 pm
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Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @james

I have used the vibration tool on my face, cheekbones, and mandible, but there is zero evidence of it doing anything.

What vibration tool did you use?

 

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Posted : 02/10/2019 8:44 pm
James
Eminent Member
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @james

I have used the vibration tool on my face, cheekbones, and mandible, but there is zero evidence of it doing anything.

What vibration tool did you use?

 

Flexxsonic.

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Posted : 02/10/2019 9:22 pm
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qwerty135
Eminent Member

One thing that the LIPUS studies found to be important was the frequency of the vibrations. The US in LIPUS stands for ultrasonic, or higher frequency than about 20000 Hz. As I said above, "LIPUS therapy for fractures is on average 1.5 MHz, or 1.5 million hertz, while the Sonicare vibrating toothbrush is around 500 Hz. In comparison, Acceledent is 30 Hz."

I think the frequency is important because LIPUS works on a cellular level. The device's signal is transmitted to each of the bone cells, and they respond to this mechanical signal with a biochemical reaction. LIPUS therapy at 1.5 MHz at intensity of 30 mW/cm^2 has been found over the last few decades to stimulate osteoblasts and induce bone formation in fractures not in the skull - the question is, what effect does it have on sutures? Perhaps some or perhaps none...

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Posted : 03/10/2019 12:31 am
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Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @jelly

@apollo
I just saw you readmitting a question on sonic devices just after I posted a question on sonic devices.
Got so excited when you said that Mike Mew has talked about these devices!!! 
Could you maybe send me links to where he talked about it?
You might find my links helpful too. So far, it seems like the PropelVPro+ is the most effective (it's the same as the 125HZ device from the dupe site apparently).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6207979/

-As quantified by an accelerometer, vibration frequency and peak accelerations were 400% and 70% greater in the VPro5 (Propel Orthodontics) than in the AcceleDent (OrthoAccel Technologies) device.

-The device that engendered a higher vibration frequency and larger acceleration (VPro5) was superior in stimulating osteoblast and fibroblast cell proliferation/gene expression, although the duration of each treatment bout was 75% shorter than for the AcceleDent.

Here is the video where Mike Mew mentions using a "sonic device" while attempting bone-anchored maxillary expansion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqqirRw_8bw

We've speculated in the MSE thread that the reason this patient's midpalatal suture failed to split could have been because Mew used a slower rate of expansion than recommended by Won Moon.

It's interesting to consider how vibration of varying frequency, intensity, etc. could influence dental alignment, bone remodeling, suture disarticulation, and bone growth in different ways. Is it simply a matter of stimulating osteoclasts and/or osteoblasts preferentially? For example, if acceledent is prescribed to make dental alignment more rapid and less painful, does that mean using it during expansion encourages dental changes with the teeth moving through bone rather than either "bone bending" remodeling or true skeletal expansion? It sounds like the device Dr. Mew was using in his clinic was applied on the face along the perimaxillary suture lines rather than over the dental arch like acceledent. So different objectives probably require different devices applied in different ways with different settings.

Here is the thread where I first started researching this topic: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/extracorporeal-shock-wave-therapy/

Posted by: @jelly

@apollo

Thanks. Gives me a lot of new stuff to read on top of the research on the websites I listed that I want to review further. I will post in the thread you linked to, let's continue discussion there. 

Any new information about vibration/cyclic/oscillating/sonic forces on craniofacial sutures? Could this be a beneficial adjunct to bone-anchored expansion to help ensure disarticulation in patients with sutures at an advanced stage of fusion/ossification? What types of devices would be used, at what settings, and how would they be applied? Shouldn't they stimulate pro-inflammatory, osteoclastic activity rather than anti-inflammatory, osteoblastic activity? Many low-intensity pulsed ultrasound and photobiomodulation devises seem like their anti-inflammatory effect might be counter-productive to achieve separation but might be useful during the stabilization phase to promote bone growth. Perhaps Dr. Mew will elaborate on the "sonic device" he uses in the next Q&A video.

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Posted : 17/01/2020 3:45 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @apollo
Posted by: @jelly

@apollo
I just saw you readmitting a question on sonic devices just after I posted a question on sonic devices.
Got so excited when you said that Mike Mew has talked about these devices!!! 
Could you maybe send me links to where he talked about it?
You might find my links helpful too. So far, it seems like the PropelVPro+ is the most effective (it's the same as the 125HZ device from the dupe site apparently).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6207979/

-As quantified by an accelerometer, vibration frequency and peak accelerations were 400% and 70% greater in the VPro5 (Propel Orthodontics) than in the AcceleDent (OrthoAccel Technologies) device.

-The device that engendered a higher vibration frequency and larger acceleration (VPro5) was superior in stimulating osteoblast and fibroblast cell proliferation/gene expression, although the duration of each treatment bout was 75% shorter than for the AcceleDent.

Here is the video where Mike Mew mentions using a "sonic device" while attempting bone-anchored maxillary expansion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqqirRw_8bw

We've speculated in the MSE thread that the reason this patient's midpalatal suture failed to split could have been because Mew used a slower rate of expansion than recommended by Won Moon.

It's interesting to consider how vibration of varying frequency, intensity, etc. could influence dental alignment, bone remodeling, suture disarticulation, and bone growth in different ways. Is it simply a matter of stimulating osteoclasts and/or osteoblasts preferentially? For example, if acceledent is prescribed to make dental alignment more rapid and less painful, does that mean using it during expansion encourages dental changes with the teeth moving through bone rather than either "bone bending" remodeling or true skeletal expansion? It sounds like the device Dr. Mew was using in his clinic was applied on the face along the perimaxillary suture lines rather than over the dental arch like acceledent. So different objectives probably require different devices applied in different ways with different settings.

Here is the thread where I first started researching this topic: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/extracorporeal-shock-wave-therapy/

Posted by: @jelly

@apollo

Thanks. Gives me a lot of new stuff to read on top of the research on the websites I listed that I want to review further. I will post in the thread you linked to, let's continue discussion there. 

Any new information about vibration/cyclic/oscillating/sonic forces on craniofacial sutures? Could this be a beneficial adjunct to bone-anchored expansion to help ensure disarticulation in patients with sutures at an advanced stage of fusion/ossification? What types of devices would be used, at what settings, and how would they be applied? Shouldn't they stimulate pro-inflammatory, osteoclastic activity rather than anti-inflammatory, osteoblastic activity? Many low-intensity pulsed ultrasound and photobiomodulation devises seem like their anti-inflammatory effect might be counter-productive to achieve separation but might be useful during the stabilization phase to promote bone growth. Perhaps Dr. Mew will elaborate on the "sonic device" he uses in the next Q&A video.

It's one of the 5 questions submitted for the Q&A. I kept the questions down to one broad open ended sentence so that Mike can just approach the whole idea and thus answer many questions in a single go.

Mike's been busy so we don't have an idea of the video release date at the moment

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Posted : 18/01/2020 4:07 pm
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @sclera

He basically jackhammers all along my sutures, which he says creates microtears in the sutures

To me, it makes intuitive sense at a mechanical level that vibration would help loosen the craniofacial sutures (like sclera's "jackhammer" mechanism), but at a cellular level, all of the in vitro and in vivo studies I'm reading seem to confirm that vibration of any frequency inhibit osteoclast activity, thereby shifting the balance away from bone resorption. This seems to be at least partly mediated by a reduction in the expression of RANKL, shifting the osteocyte balance toward osteoblasts. Wouldn't this have the counterproductive effect of increasing suture maturity/fusion/ossification/mineralization, making disarticulation during bone-anchored expansion more difficult? @jelly have you done any more research on this topic?

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Posted : 19/01/2020 8:57 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Several months ago I got a pEMF device called the SOTA Magnetic pulser, and after using it mainly on my skull for 2 months 6x a day 20 mins a session on the deeper setting, I noticed my septum wasn't deviated anymore and I grew some new bone on my upper jawbone.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 07/02/2020 10:54 pm
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Elwynn
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies

I grew some new bone on my upper jawbone

Can you elaborate on this, please?

 

24 years old

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Posted : 12/03/2020 1:39 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@greensmoothies

I grew some new bone on my upper jawbone

Can you elaborate on this, please?

 

I had a premolar extracted when it died and crumbled after accident, and opted not to get a bone graft. There was significant bone loss which I'd been working on rebuilding using a 3:1 DMSO and aloe vera solution, but the resultant new bone felt spongy. Using my pEMF quickly made this new bone more dense and I'm satisfied with the result. Diet and supplement interventions I tried prior didn't seem to help much.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 12/03/2020 2:25 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies

Interesting. That sounds promising. I'd like to invest in a pEMF device, but I'm cautious about spending several hundred dollars on it, seeing as how very few people have attempted using it for craniofacial development. I understand that we've got studies demonstrating this technology's efficacy in healing, and other areas, but I've only heard of you and a few other people using it to improve their mewing practice. Still, its potential is tempting me...

 

24 years old

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Posted : 12/03/2020 3:06 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@greensmoothies

Interesting. That sounds promising. I'd like to invest in a pEMF device, but I'm cautious about spending several hundred dollars on it, seeing as how very few people have attempted using it for craniofacial development. I understand that we've got studies demonstrating this technology's efficacy in healing, and other areas, but I've only heard of you and a few other people using it to improve their mewing practice. Still, its potential is tempting me...

 

There are others using a pEMF to help mewing? I'm in communication with just one other person. Hopefully all these people post about their results.

I don't blame you for hesitating. You might be interested in building your own DC microcurrent device called a "Godzilla". Haven't tried it for this purpose, though I can imagine how it could be done. If you want something cheaper than the pEMF, but not so "jerry-rigged", this Galvanic tabletop machine seems like it could possibly be used to stimulate the sutures in the way Cranial Suture release therapy describes.

Electricity is a little more tricky around the brain, though (see attached document for a particular consequences of placing the anode and cathode one way and then the other). The pEMF is pretty straightforward and my instruction manual said it's fine to use all over the head.

Attachment:

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 12/03/2020 4:39 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies

Thank you for this information. I will look into it.

There are others using a pEMF to help mewing? I'm in communication with just one other person. Hopefully all these people post about their results.

I might have unintentionally exaggerated by saying "few". I believe that I came across someone other than you mentioning it, but I can't remember where it was.

Has the person that you've been in communication with shared any progress yet (assuming that they don't mind you relaying it)?

 

24 years old

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Posted : 12/03/2020 8:07 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@greensmoothies

Thank you for this information. I will look into it.

There are others using a pEMF to help mewing? I'm in communication with just one other person. Hopefully all these people post about their results.

I might have unintentionally exaggerated by saying "few". I believe that I came across someone other than you mentioning it, but I can't remember where it was.

Has the person that you've been in communication with shared any progress yet (assuming that they don't mind you relaying it)?

 

They only started using it a few weeks ago

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 13/03/2020 12:47 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

MSE patients often describe a buildup of tension in the face and then a shooting sensation at the moment when the midpalatal suture splits and a diastema appears with the release of tension. I've heard a few reports of people for whom the split coincided with some trigger like taking a bite of food, or getting jostled playing basketball. Are these just happy accidents, or could similar forces be deliberately replicated to help facilitate suture disarticulation during MSE treatment? Once you advance the bone-anchored expander far enough to reasonably expect the split, could chewing, or physical exercise, or applying some kind of vibration help induce it to happen? I still don't know what the "sonic device" is that Dr. Mew mentions using with his MSE patient, but I wonder if it could help encourage more symmetrical separation of the perimaxillary sutures when the split occurs.

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Posted : 16/03/2020 1:10 am
ectking
New Member

@greensmoothies

Hello!

I never posted on here before, however I've had an interest in bone remodeling etc. for about 6 years, and have done NCR, facepulling, etc.

I'm very interested in your approach to bone remodeling. You inspired me to look into PEMF for these purposes, and I plan to get a device soon. I see there are other similar pieces to the Sota, some with higher power etc.

I'm curious to hear how your progress has been with PEMF and your facial/skull bones. 

You also inspired me to look into the Dolphin, which seems promising. 

If you've found any other devices or methodolgies that are effective as far as external vibration etc. I'd also be very interested to hear. Thanks! 

 

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Posted : 26/04/2020 7:12 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ectking

@greensmoothies

Hello!

I never posted on here before, however I've had an interest in bone remodeling etc. for about 6 years, and have done NCR, facepulling, etc.

I'm very interested in your approach to bone remodeling. You inspired me to look into PEMF for these purposes, and I plan to get a device soon. I see there are other similar pieces to the Sota, some with higher power etc.

I'm curious to hear how your progress has been with PEMF and your facial/skull bones. 

You also inspired me to look into the Dolphin, which seems promising. 

If you've found any other devices or methodolgies that are effective as far as external vibration etc. I'd also be very interested to hear. Thanks! 

 

I'll post an update about my progress in the thread about PEMF.

You can check out a comparison list of PEMF devices which have been approved by Dr. Pawluk who is the most prominent expert that deals with these devices.

The main thing to consider, in my opinion, is the "intensity" or gauss output. The SOTA pulsar gives out quite a bit of gauss for the price of the device. If interested in another device, I'd consider getting one that can give off at least 6000 gauss like the SOTA pulsar does at maximum intensity. I wouldn't think a mat-only type setup would be helpful for this work, and I'd personally be a bit leary of devices that aren't positively reviewed by an expert in the field.

I don't know if a consumer can purchase this Dolphin device... as far as I'm aware it's a DC microcurrent device that's mainly aimed at chronic wound healing, scar tissue healing and the aforementioned therapy (in a previous post in this thread by me) that helps TBI by stimulating the cranial sutures. DC microcurrent devices do have advantages over PEMF devices in the area of chronic wound healing mainly because a DC microcurrent will help kill germs in focal infections, whereas a PEMF device will not.

Actually, I have a small appendix scar. I just took a look at it and it didn't occur to me before that my PEMF use may help with this scar. It looks better than it did the last time I looked at it. Since it never healed beyond what it did in my childhood, and I've used the PEMF all over my torso, I suppose it's the PEMF has been healing it. I read a page about this Dolphin device and it said that scars serve to be some sort of energy blockage in the body...?

I don't use any devices for external vibration, instead I just hop in a cold bath and start shaking from head to toe pretty quick. LOL!

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 27/04/2020 6:39 pm
Apollo liked
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

Q&A Answer by Mike: https://youtu.be/XWmMc1tE-hA

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Posted : 17/10/2020 10:49 am
Apollo liked
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: @admin

Q&A Answer by Mike: https://youtu.be/XWmMc1tE-hA

So it sounds like the "sonic device" that Dr. Mew referenced in his MSE case video was an Aevo system low-intensity pulsed ultrasound applied to the cranial sutures rather than the teeth.

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Posted : 17/10/2020 2:08 pm
krollic
Reputable Member

bruh gonna start incorporating humming into my mewing regimen

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Posted : 17/10/2020 3:20 pm