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Evidence of age-acquired craniofacial dystrophy  

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Member Moderator

In this thread I will be sharing more and less acceptable examples of famous people whose facial form have changed throughout their life. The quality of these examples will be somewhat limited due to poor availability of decent photos. Others are welcome to participate with their own examples. 

 

Glenn Gould (pianist):

 

Bill Evans (pianist):

 

Brad Pitt (actor)

 

Liam Neeson (actor)

 

Dolph Lundgren (actor)

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Posted : 20/04/2020 10:32 am
Loliboly, Azrael, Slinky and 1 people liked
noises
Eminent Member

Well, I'd still like to know what's happening here

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/04/2020 11:12 am
Limbo6 liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @noises

Well, I'd still like to know what's happening here

Wow. It's as if his whole maxilla sank into his head. His nose went from slightly upturned to perfectly straight, too. I'd like to know what caused such a drastic change.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/04/2020 5:54 pm
Thomas22
Trusted Member

Extractions?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/04/2020 6:04 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @noises

Well, I'd still like to know what's happening here

I definitely think the mandible grows with age. And when your maxilla has 0 vertical growth this problem will be more evident. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/04/2020 6:42 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

the Brad Pitt one is hard to tell, honestly i think he looks pretty similar craniofacially, he's just aged a bit. Hence he doesnt have the same charm he did. The pictures are just different angles, one is from a lower angle, and vice versa for the other.  

Otherwise these are pretty good, mustve been a pain trying to find these comparison pictures, and I might be being nitpicky about Brad. But particularly Liam and Bill Evans are very convincing. Too bad we cant find anyone who's gotten prettier through age, guess that's what we're for, lol 😉 

Interesting how everyone has a sorta 'look' to them, Liam neeson for instance might not have ever had perfect craniofacial growth, but you can definitely see his character come out through his face. Which I imagine would be even more defined and intense had he grown 'perfectly'.

I have noticed this myself, I feel my sense of true physical-self is slowly unraveling as I've continued down this journey. Which is tying in nicely with my mental state, too. Feels like I am becoming more and more myself, slowly but surely.

Always high quality posts from you man, good stuff. Love seeing when you've made a post, looking forward to a progress update! 🙂

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/04/2020 8:04 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

Here is my skull change in the last 10 years:

 

 

 

Hopefully I can reverse the damage in the next 10 years.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/04/2020 8:55 pm
Marliemew liked
Robbie343
Trusted Member

Can’t forget the goat. Dorsal hump change

I’ve seen this change on me within 3 years lol. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/04/2020 9:05 pm
noises
Eminent Member
Posted by: @thomas22

Extractions?

Perhaps, his situation resembles that of old people who have lost all their teeth and experience bone loss due to lack of mechanical stimulation, I just wonder if there’s more to it seeing as he seems to still have most of his teeth left. I think there’s some muscular imbalance going on, I’ve suggested excessive suction hold due to restricted hyoid mobility and still see it as a possibility even if that’s a bit out there.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/04/2020 6:41 am
Thomas22 liked
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @noises
Posted by: @thomas22

Extractions?

Perhaps, his situation resembles that of old people who have lost all their teeth and experience bone loss due to lack of mechanical stimulation, I just wonder if there’s more to it seeing as he seems to still have most of his teeth left. I think there’s some muscular imbalance going on, I’ve suggested excessive suction hold due to restricted hyoid mobility and still see it as a possibility even if that’s a bit out there.

You mean Tarantino has suction hold? I doubt it since after engaging in suction hold, my face has gotten taller. His seems to have gone in an opposite direction. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/04/2020 5:01 pm
noises
Eminent Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @noises
Posted by: @thomas22

Extractions?

Perhaps, his situation resembles that of old people who have lost all their teeth and experience bone loss due to lack of mechanical stimulation, I just wonder if there’s more to it seeing as he seems to still have most of his teeth left. I think there’s some muscular imbalance going on, I’ve suggested excessive suction hold due to restricted hyoid mobility and still see it as a possibility even if that’s a bit out there.

You mean Tarantino has suction hold? I doubt it since after engaging in suction hold, my face has gotten taller. His seems to have gone in an opposite direction. 

Well, when all components are functioning as intended, my theory was that the suction generated at the posterior tongue would be a part of a balanced tensegrity and would thus morph the skull towards a balanced state. If your maxilla is lacking in the vertical dimension, it'll be pulled down. However when there's too much suction, not only will it generate a slight backwards pull, it'll override the equilibrium that would exist with less suction and eventually cause the palate and cranium being pulled closer together, and possibly thrust the chin forward. However this is just a theory to propose how the posterior suction could influence these dynamics and be responsible for changes that are currently being attributed to other factors.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/04/2020 5:49 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @noises
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @noises
Posted by: @thomas22

Extractions?

Perhaps, his situation resembles that of old people who have lost all their teeth and experience bone loss due to lack of mechanical stimulation, I just wonder if there’s more to it seeing as he seems to still have most of his teeth left. I think there’s some muscular imbalance going on, I’ve suggested excessive suction hold due to restricted hyoid mobility and still see it as a possibility even if that’s a bit out there.

You mean Tarantino has suction hold? I doubt it since after engaging in suction hold, my face has gotten taller. His seems to have gone in an opposite direction. 

Well, when all components are functioning as intended, my theory was that the suction generated at the posterior tongue would be a part of a balanced tensegrity and would thus morph the skull towards a balanced state. If your maxilla is lacking in the vertical dimension, it'll be pulled down. However when there's too much suction, not only will it generate a slight backwards pull, it'll override the equilibrium that would exist with less suction and eventually cause the palate and cranium being pulled closer together, and possibly thrust the chin forward. However this is just a theory to propose how the posterior suction could influence these dynamics and be responsible for changes that are currently being attributed to other factors.

But his maxilla was already vertically short. So what I am asking is why tongue suction would shorten his already short maxilla?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/04/2020 6:18 pm
Silver
Trusted Member

This is terrifying, but great information. Aging really is just anti-mewing. Once the maxilla is fully supported by the tongue, you should look mostly the same for the rest of your life.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/04/2020 8:03 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney
Posted by: @noises

Well, I'd still like to know what's happening here

I definitely think the mandible grows with age. And when your maxilla has 0 vertical growth this problem will be more evident. 

The gonial angle changed though.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/04/2020 7:53 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

Here is my skull change in the last 10 years:

 

 

 

Hopefully I can reverse the damage in the next 10 years.

I think your most of your face looks good, to me it looks like your nose is either really large or is really swollen.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/04/2020 7:57 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

I’d say I have CFD though because my maxilla and mandible are rotated CW and my cheekbones aren’t very prominent. My palate is also narrow at 33IMW and my gonial angle is high.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/04/2020 8:52 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@auxiliarus

I’d say I have CFD though because my maxilla and mandible are rotated CW and my cheekbones aren’t very prominent. My palate is also narrow at 33IMW and my gonial angle is high.

 

Your gonial angle and cheekbones seem good to me, though you probably have a narrow face. I don't think 33 IMW is that narrow though. It depends on how you measured your IMW though. If you measured the narrowest line between the inside of the first molars then beware that this measurement gives the smallest result, so a 33 mm using this measurement wouldn't be that narrow at all.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/04/2020 9:09 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

@auxiliarus

It also depends on the width of the tongue as to whether a palate is considered "small"

I have a palate in the early 40s yet my fricking* 55mm tongue is crammed in there like bruh my palate feels tiny

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2020 6:26 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

I measured my IMW from the inside sides of the first molars. Its now 35mm from mewing and my plastic retainers which I never wear no longer fit. I wish to get a palette and zygomas like Ronald Ead after his MSE treatment. My pallet is extremely narrow at the first premolars.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2020 8:53 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@maxiller

I have a 53mm wide tongue and I am tryna cram it into the 35mm pallet displayed above. Hope one day my tongue can chill in a 53mm palet

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2020 8:56 pm
max iller liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@maxiller

I have a 53mm wide tongue and I am tryna cram it into the 35mm pallet displayed above. Hope one day my tongue can chill in a 53mm palet

 

If I were you I wouldn't get too attached to numbers, there's way too many different ways to measure IMW, so with your method perfect IMW might be 40-45mm, etc... I have around 40mm using a method where I measured the narrowest line between first molars and I don't think 53mm is perfect with that measurement.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/04/2020 2:52 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

If I were you I wouldn't get too attached to numbers, there's way too many different ways to measure IMW, so with your method perfect IMW might be 40-45mm, etc... I have around 40mm using a method where I measured the narrowest line between first molars and I don't think 53mm is perfect with that measurement.

That seems like a large palate (my first molar IMW is 35.5mm). What's your IMW at the back (or the 2nd, 3rd or 4th molars)?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/04/2020 6:54 am
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

I measured my IMW using Mike Mews method. It was 33mm. Mike Mew claims ancient man had IMWs of high 40s to low 50s

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/04/2020 8:38 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@auxiliarus

I measured my IMW using Mike Mews method. It was 33mm. Mike Mew claims ancient man had IMWs of high 40s to low 50s

 

Sorry I might have messed up my measuring method. My wisdom teeth haven't erupted yet and I didn't realize that they count as third molars, so I was actually measuring my first molars when I said second molars. I remeasure below, but I still want to make a point that I don't think high 40s or low 50s(second molars) are aesthetic, as evidenced by my own photos below.

 

Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

If I were you I wouldn't get too attached to numbers, there's way too many different ways to measure IMW, so with your method perfect IMW might be 40-45mm, etc... I have around 40mm using a method where I measured the narrowest line between first molars and I don't think 53mm is perfect with that measurement.

That seems like a large palate (my first molar IMW is 35.5mm). What's your IMW at the back (or the 2nd, 3rd or 4th molars)?

It looks large, Idk if it actually is. I actually didn't measure properly. I know for sure that I made big changes from mewing. I used to have a smile with only 4 upper teeth and 4 lower teeth showing, now it's 6 and sometimes 7 teeth showing on upper and lower, my smile literally stretches all the skin around. I think I over-widened my palate and messed up my face in some aspects from mewing though.

Second molars widest point from inside : 50mm

Second molars narrowest point from inside(closer to the front) : 46mm

First molars widest and narrowest both : 40mm

 

Here's my smile, sorry for yellow teeth, also kinda crooked :

Palate(Notice how skin completely stretching around palate, I've been having a lot of that ever since mewing, it burns to even smile) :

Smiling pulls the skin/soft tissue in my neck upwards, I think I over-did mewing and palate became too wide :

Tons of fat tissue on my face. I think mostly because of chewing causing shortening of the face and then compressing skin on itself. But also the palate pushing the skin outwards... :

 

So I still stand by my point that you can over-mew and achieve a too wide palate leading to negative side effects. Same for chewing. I should've probably stopped at 45mm for second molars. I think focusing too much on widening the back of the palate can contribute to this effect.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/04/2020 4:17 am
Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@auxiliarus

I measured my IMW using Mike Mews method. It was 33mm. Mike Mew claims ancient man had IMWs of high 40s to low 50s

 

I found an aboriginal study showing 40mm IMW.

https://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/bitstream/2440/50873/8/02main.pdf

Look at figure 8, measure yourself, there's a ruler next to the palate.

However then they said that the upper IMW is 50 and lower IMW is 40, so basically they used a different measuring method than Mew himself. Mew probably used this study as well.

No offense to Mew, but he's generally not a reliable source of theoretic information. I think he's more focused on practical application on children. So case closed, Mew made a mistake, using his own method 40mm seems to be normal for aboriginals with wide palates.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/04/2020 4:27 am
Lawnmewer
Active Member

While it's probably very likely that you will experience some CFD as you age, especially if you're not actively making sure you have good posture, I don't think it's inevitable:

I think it comes down to environment. All of the people in these images live more primitive lifestyles, relative to the people in the OP.

 


edit: Also I just realised that the 3rd person has a receding hairline, which could be evidence that even without CFD you're still not safe from baldness. However, it is also a tradition in some tribes to cut the hair like that, so it's not a very strong case.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2020 5:02 pm
theadonisking
Active Member
Posted by: @noises
Posted by: @thomas22

Extractions?

Perhaps, his situation resembles that of old people who have lost all their teeth and experience bone loss due to lack of mechanical stimulation, I just wonder if there’s more to it seeing as he seems to still have most of his teeth left. I think there’s some muscular imbalance going on, I’ve suggested excessive suction hold due to restricted hyoid mobility and still see it as a possibility even if that’s a bit out there.

Low tongue posture

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/05/2020 6:37 pm
eternally12
Active Member

@lawnmewer

It’s very evident they all have well developed maxillae. However what I find interesting is the caucasian man in the last picture still seems to have a very crooked nose despite his maxilla - though it would definitely look more disproportionate if his maxilla were smaller. Although in his defence the picture is not great quality either. 

I agree with the premise that Mike seems to have overestimated the size of the average maxilla in our ancestors. Although they are clearly larger than modern day Western humans, I personally don’t think they would commonly exceed the mid 40s. As long as all 32 teeth fit comfortably and in occlusion with the lower jaw with perhaps very minor spacing in between some of them, that is sufficient. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/05/2020 1:10 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@eternally12

Could the crooked nose have been caused by an injury? A minor birth defect unrelated to the general issue of CFD?

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/05/2020 6:56 pm
noises
Eminent Member

I just remembered this time-lapse project of a guy aging for 20 years and you can see how his face drops down a bit. Not very dramatic but still useful evidence:  https://youtu.be/afHCzdxk93Q

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Posted : 18/06/2020 4:19 pm
Basim
Eminent Member

In that video, his whole maxilla and mandible went back. When he was young, he had a ramus abiet a short ramus and decent mandible length. By the time 20 years passed , you can see no ramus,mandible,chin, and his face went more vertical.

Maybe it’s the increase of fat and loss collagen that’s hiding his bone structure to see if the bones change position during that time. But it does prove that face changes through bone and soft tissue over time in a dramatic way gradually. And I wonder he would look younger if he mewed during those 20 years as well.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/06/2020 4:51 pm
noises
Eminent Member

The loss of jawline seems to mostly originate from the hyoid position dropping due to his natural tongue posture progressively worsening over time. This also plays into the scalp tension/hair loss topic because he would be an example of later-onset CFD with a forward-grown maxilla dropping down and stretching out the scalp. With effective mewing he could’ve not only preserved his bone structure but perhaps hair as well, so he certainly would look younger.

 

By the way, it’s a pretty commonly heard piece of trivia that human ears and noses keep growing throughout a lifetime. His ears actually grew considerably bigger but I don’t think the nose really increased in size, it just appears more prominent due to CFD. Respect to the guy for making a high quality documentation and sticking to it for so long to provide some useful data. 

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Posted : 18/06/2020 6:46 pm