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Effect of braces and teeth extraction on facial growth?  

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Aesthetics
New Member

I recently went to an orthodontist for my crooked teeth. I happen to have an overbite and a canine on my lower jaw (the mandible) is being blocked by the other teeth due to overcrowding. The orthodontist said that after a few months of braces, he would remove the adjacent premolar (biscupid) to make room for the canine. Then he would remove a premolar on the other side and a premolar on each side of the top jaw to make it all even. He said if I was younger they could have done a palatal expander but not anymore since I am in my late teens. I did some research on the internet about teeth extraction and supposedly it shrinks your jaw due to something called residual ridge reabsorption and changes your facial structure in an adverse way.

Looking at my profile, I feel as if my jaw is already recessed and I don't want it to get any smaller. If I don't remove four whole healthy teeth to make room for one incoming tooth, the orthodontist said the incoming canine would push my front lower teeth and make it crooked or stick out to make room for itself. Would that be preferable and something that can be treated later on (say a year) with braces?

I feel as if the orthodontist is just using traditional methods of tooth extractions to get straight teeth without looking at the overall effect on the facial structure. Can someone who knows much more about this enlighten me on whether I should go with the orthodontist's approach (get braces and then four extractions a few months later), or if I should postpone braces until the canine comes out? Also, is there anything that can actually widen the lower jaw or even lenghten them with or without surgery? I've read that there are also mandible expanders though I don't have a clue what expanders are, how they work, how much they cost, and how I can go about getting them.

But for now, I really need help deciding what to do. I would be very grateful for any help. I posted this in both the main forum and the case discussion forum as I'm not sure where it should go.

(Yes, I read the notice at the top of the forum but this seems to be the best place for getting advice. I understand that the orthodontist is a licensed professional, but from what I read on the internet they only try to solve the problem of messed up teeth without looking at how their methods affect the rest of the face.)

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Posted : 03/01/2019 2:26 pm
Ayla31
Trusted Member

I have not experience with expansion appliances like others here, but I do know that many times orthodontists do what is easier for them, even if that doesn't always benefit you.

So I would get a second opinion..a third or more if necessary. Look for an orthodontist who is into palatal expansion for adults, if possible.

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Posted : 03/01/2019 3:05 pm
mewtastic
New Member

I honestly believe you will regret extractions eventually. The reason is that it is not a natural nor necessary solution. From all I have learned from everywhere, I believe one should "mew" (maintain proper oral posture as much as possible so that the face can develop in the most natural healthy manner) regardless of their situation. It's just the natural way human beings are supposed to be. I am grateful I chose to end my braces treatment which would have resulted in up to three extractions because I have made some progress by just mewing for a few months. If you chin tuck and push your entire tongue with the most force you can upward, you will see results. It is important you push the back part of your tongue the most because that creates the most pressure upward and forward for facial development. Trust me, you will feel it eventually if you continue practicing. You will literally feel intense pressure on your cheekbones and surrounding area, and it can be uncomfortable and very difficult to maintain, but your teeth will slowly move and your jaw will align properly. I have experienced this and if I chose to consciously mew in the best way I could (it is hard for me, because of the intensity of the pressure), my face would develop rather quickly I believe. I highly recommend just learning as much as you can and then decide based on what you personally believe is right based on the evidence. I truly don't think you should get extractions, but my knowledge is limited to my experience and what I've read/seen and thus I can't say for sure. Orthodontists are not very useful - at least mine wasn't and he was perfectly rated everywhere - because their level of knowledge is relatively low, tbh. So many people have dental and jaw issues and most treatments are not solving the core issue. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/01/2019 3:26 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Worth getting a consult with an orthodontist who does Damon or other self-ligating braces.  Or even better yet,... someone on the orthoscience.com board of advisors.  In a separate post here, I put a list of their locations together.  Highly recommended.

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Posted : 03/01/2019 3:34 pm
Aesthetics
New Member

Thank you both for your replies. I understand the importance of mewing, but the effect on teeth and palate expansion would be mostly on the top jaw, right? My problem is overcrowding on the bottom jaw. Does mewing affect that too?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/01/2019 4:02 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Tooth extractions in the upper jaw narrow your airway. They also lengthen your midface since the face is pulled down to close the gaps (gaps are always closed in the direction of molars) 

In the lower jaw they narrow the arch so you end up with a deep bite since the mandible physically shrinks. Teeth extractions on the lower arch also make your chin more triangular and pointed I noticed (but no positive increase in profile projection due to narrowed lower arch).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/01/2019 11:41 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Tooth extractions in the upper jaw narrow your airway. They also lengthen your midface since the face is pulled down to close the gaps (gaps are always closed in the direction of molars) 

In the lower jaw they narrow the arch so you end up with a deep bite since the mandible physically shrinks. Teeth extractions on the lower arch also make your chin more triangular and pointed I noticed (but no positive increase in profile projection due to narrowed lower arch).

Couldn't agree more.

There are so many posts on this forum about the negative long term effects of extractions, please search for them.

Personally, I'm spending a lot of time and money undoing the impacts of 3 bicuspid extractions sold to my parents under the guise of 'overcrowding' that I've now proven was unnecessary. 

While the differing methodologies of growth of your maxilla/mandible to accommodate your overcrowded arch differ on this forum, the general consensus seems to be that the arch should grow to accommodate your teeth, rather than your teeth removed to fit an arch.

Extraction and retraction orthodontics causes a number of significant health problems. I recommend you spend some time doing your research or securing a second opinion.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/01/2019 1:09 am
EddieMoney and seii liked
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member
Posted by: mewtastic

I honestly believe you will regret extractions eventually. The reason is that it is not a natural nor necessary solution. From all I have learned from everywhere, I believe one should "mew" (maintain proper oral posture as much as possible so that the face can develop in the most natural healthy manner) regardless of their situation. It's just the natural way human beings are supposed to be. I am grateful I chose to end my braces treatment which would have resulted in up to three extractions because I have made some progress by just mewing for a few months. If you chin tuck and push your entire tongue with the most force you can upward, you will see results. It is important you push the back part of your tongue the most because that creates the most pressure upward and forward for facial development. Trust me, you will feel it eventually if you continue practicing. You will literally feel intense pressure on your cheekbones and surrounding area, and it can be uncomfortable and very difficult to maintain, but your teeth will slowly move and your jaw will align properly. I have experienced this and if I chose to consciously mew in the best way I could (it is hard for me, because of the intensity of the pressure), my face would develop rather quickly I believe. I highly recommend just learning as much as you can and then decide based on what you personally believe is right based on the evidence. I truly don't think you should get extractions, but my knowledge is limited to my experience and what I've read/seen and thus I can't say for sure. Orthodontists are not very useful - at least mine wasn't and he was perfectly rated everywhere - because their level of knowledge is relatively low, tbh. So many people have dental and jaw issues and most treatments are not solving the core issue. 

Can you try to explain in detail how you push with your tongue to feel pressure on your cheekbones?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/01/2019 4:49 am
Aesthetics
New Member

Thank you so much for all of your responses. I am deciding on seeing another orthodontist and waiting it out until I learn more about this.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/01/2019 1:17 pm
Sclera
Estimable Member

It might take a while to find them, but there are orthodontists out there who do understand skull development and the effects of extractions. I had a brief consultation with one a few months ago who was openly dismayed that not only were my teeth extracted but that no one had discussed oral posture with me beforehand. This orthodonist, though, specializes in FAGGA and AGGA.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/01/2019 9:39 am
chickenita
Active Member

Please don't let this orthodontist treat you. He probably never learned about that issue because facial growth is no part of mainstream orthodontics.

I know so many people regretting their extractions because of the recessed look but also because of the various heath problems such as sleep apnea and TMJ.

For more information check out https://www.righttogrow.org/ and Orthotropics on Youtube.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/01/2019 10:15 am
Couda
Eminent Member

You can use palatal expansion at your age and even adult age. Though rapid maxillary expansion(many mm per week) should only be used on kids. Mike Mew said that Slow expansion 1 mm per month is okay and stable.

Extractions are stupid, i cant believe i feel for that, i was 14 and not much a critical thinker then. 

"Natural teeth are embedded in the jawbone, and stimulate the jawbone through activities such as chewing and biting. When teeth are missing, the alveolar bone, or the portion of the jawbone that anchors the teeth in the mouth, no longer receives the necessary stimulation, and begins to break down, or resorb."

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/01/2019 3:22 pm
Aesthetics
New Member

@Sclera It seems as if the FAGGA is for the maxilla. My crowding is on the lower jaw. Is there any appliance for the mandible? Also, I'm not sure how I can find any orthodontists close to me who might specialize in this or how to persuade my parents to spend a few extra thousand. They're under the belief that I look ok and I shouldn't be concerned with my looks. Are TMJ and sleep apnea the only health risks with extraction and recessed mandible and maxilla? Lots of people get teeth extractions and don't end up with those problems so it may be a weak argument to bring up in front of my parents at the next orthodontist appointment. The previous orthodontist and the dentist I saw today were under the knowledge that there was no way to expand the lower jaw without it hurting.

I noticed that I mainly chew with my right side and not much on the left. Could this be the reason why I may be having crowding and a canine on the left struggling to come up? I read a research article that studied and concluded that the mandible and maxilla grow by several millimeters from 16 to 18 and 18 to 20 years of age though I don't know where that growth is or if it's at the front where my crowding issue is. A few millimeters on my left side is al I need. Would chewing gum extensively on my left side closer to the canine stimulate bone growth over there (using reverse logic of residual ridge reabsorption) while at the same time chewing gum on the right side to avoid an imbalance in bone density? How long would it take to see expansion over there. I'm worried that if I don't get teeth removed to relieve the crowding, the canine would cause pain and have other consequences as it tries to come out.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/01/2019 3:58 pm
Sclera
Estimable Member

Unfortunately, I can't give much of any advice on appliances other than what I already have! I hope you're able to find a like-minded orthodontist if that's the direction that feels right for you.

You've asked a lot of really good questions, and I can only respond to a few of them, as I just don't know, or it all depends on people's individual situations.

I won't presume to know your case, but I follow the line of thought to chew evenly on both sides. Other people on the forum have more familiarity with using extensive chewing as part of their correction, as well as still developing while they do so. But you do want to be careful in how much you chew and how you chew, as that can create or exacerbate jaw issues.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/01/2019 4:26 pm
Aesthetics
New Member

Thanks for the advice. I'll bring it up with my next orthodontist. I feel I might have to do extractions eventually if there are no other options or if not getting extractions to relieve the crowding will be harmful to the rest of my teeth in the long run. In that case, I'll continue to mew diligently and hope that a strong constant force on my palate will help. Some sources on the internet say changes only occur in some patients and that the changes are subtle so maybe the difference was because of those with good oral and tongue posture and those without. Just a theory.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 05/01/2019 7:09 pm
APPLES AND CARROTS
New Member

Don't chew GUM because it does not create the tension, compression, rotational links needed to intercuspate teeth. Instead, hold a ROUND CARROT with your hand and angle it so that it connects the lower canine with the upper canine. Then bite gently against the  carrot, which should be as wide as a finger, and rotate the carrot in the direction needed for the lower canine to intercuspate forward of the upper canine. Do the same between premolars and incisors, always analysing where imrpovement is needed. Don't chew regular food in this area until the carrot exercise is intercuspating the canines because regular chewing will only reinforce the wrong force vector. Chew a round apple where needed for intrusive forces, and pulling forces. Wait until the new, correct force vector is achieved before chewing normally. WHen you rotate the carrot, it will create a groove.  SEE NATURAL CHEWING EXERCISES to prevent ortho. ANimals chew evenly on each side. Humans use forks, eliminating the benefit of holding foods. Orthos are not engineers, and are not fully aware of physics and mechanics, and growth in nature, so don't believe everything.  They make more money closing extraction spaces. Never extract. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/03/2019 11:56 pm
entelechy
Trusted Member
Posted by: @aesthetics

I recently went to an orthodontist for my crooked teeth. I happen to have an overbite and a canine on my lower jaw (the mandible) is being blocked by the other teeth due to overcrowding. The orthodontist said that after a few months of braces, he would remove the adjacent premolar (biscupid) to make room for the canine. Then he would remove a premolar on the other side and a premolar on each side of the top jaw to make it all even. He said if I was younger they could have done a palatal expander but not anymore since I am in my late teens. I did some research on the internet about teeth extraction and supposedly it shrinks your jaw due to something called residual ridge reabsorption and changes your facial structure in an adverse way.

Looking at my profile, I feel as if my jaw is already recessed and I don't want it to get any smaller. If I don't remove four whole healthy teeth to make room for one incoming tooth, the orthodontist said the incoming canine would push my front lower teeth and make it crooked or stick out to make room for itself. Would that be preferable and something that can be treated later on (say a year) with braces?

I feel as if the orthodontist is just using traditional methods of tooth extractions to get straight teeth without looking at the overall effect on the facial structure. Can someone who knows much more about this enlighten me on whether I should go with the orthodontist's approach (get braces and then four extractions a few months later), or if I should postpone braces until the canine comes out? Also, is there anything that can actually widen the lower jaw or even lenghten them with or without surgery? I've read that there are also mandible expanders though I don't have a clue what expanders are, how they work, how much they cost, and how I can go about getting them.

But for now, I really need help deciding what to do. I would be very grateful for any help. I posted this in both the main forum and the case discussion forum as I'm not sure where it should go.

(Yes, I read the notice at the top of the forum but this seems to be the best place for getting advice. I understand that the orthodontist is a licensed professional, but from what I read on the internet they only try to solve the problem of messed up teeth without looking at how their methods affect the rest of the face.)

DO NOT GET THE EXTRACTIONS!  You will not only ruin your profile, you will get less tongue space, which can result in the following symptoms immediately or later in life:   inability to swallow correctly (forget Mewing),  MD jaw pain (jaws too back, and condyle against bone),  poor posture (neck muscles strained because jaw goes back).

Plus extraction people went they hit age 50 really look "old".   The face sinks. And that is whether it was "right" for you or not.

Today there are a number of orthodontists who refuse to do extractions and use expanders instead.

In my opinion (and in that of anyone who has suffered the above bad consequences), it is better to have crooked teeth than a lifetime of health problems

 

See this survey and please take it IF you have had the extractions. 

 

Here's the survey:  https://forms.gle/F5LEdN9ujjiMu4Mt6

Anyone who takes this survey, I send a full three page overview of ALL possible reversal techniques, from SFOT to MSE to FAGGA to opening back the extracton spaces for implants, pluses and minuses.

As for the info in my overview:   it comes from interviews with over 150 doctors, from Won Moon to Bill Hang....and readings of hundreds of research articles in medical journals--

 

entelechy

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Posted : 26/03/2020 3:55 am
entelechy
Trusted Member

here is a video of what premolar extraction is all about:  https://www.facebook.com/denteach/videos/610248939316307/

entelechy

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/05/2020 1:11 am
entelechy
Trusted Member

please help me out and take this survey if you have already had premolar extractions:   it's to get statistics on how many get negative consequences  for advocacy work to help victims get reimbursed for reversal costs.

 

entelechy

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/05/2020 1:12 am