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Dr. Mike Mew view on "Hard Mewing" and more!  

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Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member

A person on discord that goes by the name xavier recently had an in person consultation with Dr. Mike Mew and posed the following 16 questions, with the first being about hard mewing. I highlighted the ones about "hard mewing", but all of them are interesting questions. 

1. Is hard mewing effective?

"More about continuous posture than forcing your tongue to the roof"

2.where should the tip of the tongue be(a lot of people allegedly say it should be directly behind the teeth while others say it should be further back)?

Not 100% sure it depends on the pallet size ect. Easier to determine in a real life consultation 3. Best position to sleep in? Back but it can vary.

4.retainers?

Wearing a removable night retainer while mewing can jiggle your teeth around which after many years can cause some unwanted health complication "like how a stake is moved around the ground getting looser over time"

5.chin tuck?

Effective

6. How comes some mouth breathers look fine???

X

7. Semi rapid expansion???

For Moving teeth "your teeth are ok xavier"

8.should you push with your tongue up and forward?

Function causes change.The suction holds net effect is upwards anyway.

9.should your tongue touch the side teeth?

You shouldn't feel the force of the sides of your tongue touching your teeth with but you. Just be inside where teeth are. Sides gently resting against them

10.what to do if you have asymmetry in the palate meaning that the left/right side is lower than the other(u get the point)?

"Don't tackle asymmetry so far". Mike mew Did mention the cardboard box theory where when the maxilla moves forward and up potentially asymmetry's can be mitigated.

11. I teeth grind to much what could I do?

You are much less likely to grind your teeth when your tongue is on the roof of your mouth. It is often caused by anxiety

12. Is there any evidence of the mid face being shortened in adults?
not too much Analysis for now, yet to see big changes in adults
 
13. Face pulling?
Seen some good results, though very few though
 
14. —— I have a deepbite/overbite so my upper incisors go over my lower ones when i have my molars together and when I have my incisors aligned my molars don’t touch (there is a gap)... MY QUESTION: should I have my molars together in an overbite position or align my incisors manually so they are on top of each other? **who's question is this again???
 
Very slight difference. Something about our ancestors can't really remember XD
 
15. Adult Head gear
A Few nice results by practitioners of NCR Some with fagga appliance and others
 
16. Should the teeth be touching?
Gently touching, Do not teeth clench(like a butterfly bite) SOME
 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 16/01/2019 6:39 am
Ayla31, Apollo, Sclera and 4 people liked
Odys
 Odys
(@odys)
Eminent Member

I understand the orthodontist’s terror of jiggling and agree that it should be minimised, but it seems unavoidable at some level. No one is isolating movement in their palatal sutures. Everyone is to some degree moving their teeth. Those with tipped in teeth are even aiming for it. Also no one is achieving straight progress as achieved by orthodontic appliances. Everyone is progressing against a contrary flow of nocturnal recession. I think there is a complexity to this natural non- straight line movement of teeth that Mewing is mimicking and that this is a good thing. I do not see myself as creating expansion but as making sure that I always collect the little gifts of movement that are at any one time naturally available in my mouth. I think that there is a violence to the unyielding straight line expansion by orthodontic appliances and that this, as well as the lack of sutural expansion, accounts for the apparent limits on expansion that it can achieve, which does not seem to apply to expansion by Mewing. I may well in this train of thought be trying to justify my decision not to use an orthodontic appliance to start off expansion.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/01/2019 10:16 am
scerif
(@scerif)
Eminent Member

He didn't answer question 14!

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/01/2019 10:31 am
Slinky
(@slinky)
Eminent Member

Many thanks for sharing. I guess hard mewing is debunked now!

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Posted : 16/01/2019 10:35 am
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Odys

Also no one is achieving straight progress as achieved by orthodontic appliances. Everyone is progressing against a contrary flow of nocturnal recession. I think there is a complexity to this natural non- straight line movement of teeth that Mewing is mimicking and that this is a good thing. I do not see myself as creating expansion but as making sure that I always collect the little gifts of movement that are at any one time naturally available in my mouth.

I think you bring allot of good points especially so the above. Perhaps the reason why the alf is so highly recommended is because it works in this natural approach.

 

Posted by: Slinky

Many thanks for sharing. I guess hard mewing is debunked now!

Welcome, I suppose we can wait for him to answer the same question from the list before claiming that, but you know the answer was always in his videos: the posterior third of the tongue does all the magic and it only does that subconsciously.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/01/2019 10:54 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member

Poorly taken notes.  Not reflective of his videos.  The one on retainers is especially horrendous!  NOT a representation.  He was talking about those who wear intermittently... like once a week.  Daily is perfect.  It's kind of a misrepresentation if you ask me.  And if that philophy of intermittnatly applied pressure is applied to hard mewing... it's a no.

This post was modified 4 months ago by darkindigo
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Posted : 16/01/2019 1:42 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator

I feel that he is not truly addressing the question. Mike shared two points:

1) continuous posture is crucial

2) proper function causes changes

Now, based on the foundation of these two premises, if we ask:

Pushing continuously, with proper form, does it make any difference whether one pushes hard or gently?

what would he answer? I hope he'll offer a better answer in the upcoming Q+A video.

Thanks for sharing anyway.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/01/2019 2:33 pm
scerif liked
JuliusO
(@juliuso)
Active Member
Posted by: darkindigo

Poorly taken notes.  Not reflective of his videos.  The one on retainers is especially horrendous!  NOT a representation.  He was talking about those who wear intermittently... like once a week.  Daily is perfect.  It's kind of a misrepresentation if you ask me.  And if that philophy of intermittnatly applied pressure is applied to hard mewing... it's a no.

Correct me if I am wrong but I assume wearing a retainer while mewing would only allow forward and up movement but prevent widening the palate? 

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Posted : 16/01/2019 6:48 pm
drunkwithcoffee
(@drunkwithcoffee)
Trusted Member
Posted by: Slinky

Many thanks for sharing. I guess hard mewing is debunked now!

Taking this as a "debunk" is poor science.  I don't think anyone has hard mewed *and* been studied for a period of time long enough to conclude anything.  Even if it's Dr. Mew's opinion, nothing is being proven false.

Side note: I didn't watch the video and only scanned over the notes.  From the notes alone it doesn't seem like Mew says "no" to hard mewing, only that overall posture is the most important aspect.

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Posted : 16/01/2019 7:13 pm
Slinky
(@slinky)
Eminent Member

He is clearly saying it's more about light contact with the roof of mouth instead of hard mewing. If hard mewing was effective for adults wouldn't he have clearly said yes ?

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Posted : 16/01/2019 11:31 pm
AlphaMinus
(@alphaminus)
Estimable Member

He's never said hard mewing is effective in adults because clearly, there is no credible or conclusive evidence that it's worked for any adult. He'd be a fool to claim that it has. There isn't one single case that isn't heavily disputed in the before/after pics. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2019 10:09 am
drunkwithcoffee
(@drunkwithcoffee)
Trusted Member

@Slinky @AlphaMinus

I agree with both of you.  All I'm saying is that from a scientific perspective, this doesn't mean hard mewing conclusively doesn't work.  It just means that there hasn't been enough research out there to arrive at a conclusion.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2019 1:36 pm
Timbertiger
(@timbertiger)
Active Member

This problem might be solved if Achilles uploaded an after picture with better lighting. His before and after pictures are the best evidence I've seen so far.

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Posted : 17/01/2019 3:16 pm
AlphaMinus
(@alphaminus)
Estimable Member
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@Slinky @AlphaMinus

I agree with both of you.  All I'm saying is that from a scientific perspective, this doesn't mean hard mewing conclusively doesn't work.  It just means that there hasn't been enough research out there to arrive at a conclusion.

To be fair though, "nobody has proven it wrong" could be used to defend any outlandish or fanciful idea at all. 

To me, the whole theory behind  hard mewing seems very specious and whimsical. People imagine that pushing with the tongue can move/grow the bones in their face because it sounds like it could. Basic physics right? You push something and it will move, however slowly. However none of this takes into account things like opposing forces pushing things back where they were, and also the length of time required to move adult maxillas with tongues. Maybe tongue pressure does move the maxilla, but at a rate which would require 50 years or more to see any significant difference. 

I'm highly skeptical about the claims people on forums like this have made about their face or body changing. It's not a derisive skepticism - rather that in my own experience, it's possible to completely and utterly delude oneself that one's appearance has changed. I have noticed/deceived myself about changes in my face and body my entire adult life, regardless of anything I've been doing that might produce those changes. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if there exists a certain degree of tolerance in all measurements in the body. Things are slowly shifting and moving all the time. 

Some of the miniscule changes people have "measured" in their faces in the mewing community are ridiculous. It reminds me of dieters who gleefully announce that they lost a pound in weight. My weight fluctuates more than that over the course of a single day. 

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Posted : 17/01/2019 4:33 pm
drunkwithcoffee
(@drunkwithcoffee)
Trusted Member

@AlphaMinus

"Nobody has proven it wrong" is the reality, and also the inverse - that nobody has proven it right either.  But it does not logically follow that lack of research = the statement is wrong.  If that were the case science would never advance.  We can't throw out the hypothesis when the research hasn't even really started.  And to be honest, who knows how much research is even feasible right now because I'd bet the number of people hard mewing "correctly" 24/7 is very slim.  

To your point about the theory of hard mewing being whimsical.  I see it as the opposite.  If proper tongue posture (normal mewing) is enough to make gradual changes due to the strength of the tongue, theoretically wouldn't it make sense that increasing the force = accelerated results? Imo the theory behind hard mewing isn't any different than the one behind using an appliance.

That said, I agree that 99.9% of the anecdotal evidence (aside from Achilles' case which I find pretty convincing so far, and maybe Jamo's if his pics are legit) that gets posted is lacking.

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Posted : 17/01/2019 4:43 pm
drunkwithcoffee
(@drunkwithcoffee)
Trusted Member

@Timbertiger

Achilles' progress is pretty amazing, but it's just one case and one case isn't enough to prove anything when we're this early in the research phase.

The way I see it, there are probably minimal negative side effects for most people when it comes to hard mewing, so it can't hurt to try it for a bit to see what happens. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2019 4:46 pm
AlphaMinus
(@alphaminus)
Estimable Member
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@Slinky @AlphaMinus

I agree with both of you.  All I'm saying is that from a scientific perspective, this doesn't mean hard mewing conclusively doesn't work.  It just means that there hasn't been enough research out there to arrive at a conclusion.

To be fair though, "nobody has proven it wrong" could be used to defend any outlandish or fanciful idea at all. 

To me, the whole theory behind  hard mewing seems very specious and whimsical. People imagine that pushing with the tongue can move/grow the bones in their face because it sounds like it could. Basic physics right? You push something and it will move, however slowly. However none of this takes into account things like opposing forces pushing things back where they were, and also the length of time required to move adult maxillas with tongues. Maybe tongue pressure does move the maxilla, but at a rate which would require 50 years or more to see any significant difference. 

I'm highly skeptical about the claims people on forums like this have made about their face or body changing. It's not a derisive skepticism - rather that in my own experience, it's possible to completely and utterly delude oneself that one's appearance has changed. I have noticed/deceived myself about changes in my face and body my entire adult life, regardless of anything I've been doing that might produce those changes. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if there exists a certain degree of tolerance in all measurements in the body. Things are slowly shifting and moving all the time. 

Some of the miniscule changes people have "measured" in their faces in the mewing community are ridiculous. It reminds me of dieters who gleefully announce that they lost a pound in weight. My weight fluctuates more than that over the course of a single day. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2019 4:52 pm
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Estimable Member
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@Timbertiger

Achilles' progress is pretty amazing, but it's just one case and one case isn't enough to prove anything when we're this early in the research phase.

The way I see it, there are probably minimal negative side effects for most people when it comes to hard mewing, so it can't hurt to try it for a bit to see what happens. 

Both him and Jamo who advocate hard mewing engaged in some sort of face pulling practice, then we can't tease apart the result.

Also there have been some injury reports with so-called hard mewing.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2019 8:03 pm
Timbertiger
(@timbertiger)
Active Member

Well in that case, I'll be a guinea pig for research. I plan on doing the same thing Achilles did for at least 6 months to start: hard mewing every day all day along with chin tucking and I'll add in thumb pulling for a few minutes every hour. Just started about a week ago so I've got a ways to go. I roughly estimated my inter molar distance and mew cosmetic line, and I took side and front pictures. I'll do my best to take the after pictures in the same place and with the same lighting. Is there anything else I should do to be a good case study?

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Posted : 17/01/2019 8:18 pm
Ayla31
(@ayla31)
Trusted Member

@Timbertiger, if you want to be a guinea pig to see if hard mewing works, then I would do only that at first. If you do thumb pulling at the same time and you get good results, you won't be sure at the end which was the method that helped you the most.

(Of course if it were just for yourself, it wouldn't matter  how many things you do to get improvements) 

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by Ayla31
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Posted : 17/01/2019 8:55 pm
Timbertiger
(@timbertiger)
Active Member

Okay, I'll leave the thumb pulling out. Only been doing it for a few days so it's not too late.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2019 9:00 pm
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Timbertiger

Well in that case, I'll be a guinea pig for research. I plan on doing the same thing Achilles did for at least 6 months to start: hard mewing every day all day along with chin tucking and I'll add in thumb pulling for a few minutes every hour. Just started about a week ago so I've got a ways to go. I roughly estimated my inter molar distance and mew cosmetic line, and I took side and front pictures. I'll do my best to take the after pictures in the same place and with the same lighting. Is there anything else I should do to be a good case study?

You will prove nothing for hard mewing because you'll be using rough estimate measurements and doing thumb pulling alongside. 

Eta: two-weeks is a standard "wash out period" used in scientific studies, in case this helps

This post was modified 4 months ago by Greensmoothies
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Posted : 17/01/2019 9:03 pm
Timbertiger
(@timbertiger)
Active Member

Ayla31 mentioned that about thumb pulling. I'll leave it out. Guess I'll find some calipers for precise measuring.. What is a wash out period?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2019 9:19 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

From the notes alone it doesn't seem like Mew says "no" to hard mewing, only that overall posture is the most important aspect.

In principle people who make a claim have to bring proof. If someone accuses you of wrong doing they have to have some proof. In that regard even Dr. Mike Mew's claims about mewing are not proven in adults, but at least he is a doctor and a scientist with a successful track record in treating kids with the same claims.  

Now what does the other side offer? Many claims that contradict Dr. Mike Mew claims and offer nothing in proof. The only case that has some potential of being believable is the one from neveragain. His pictures show two important changes: improved neck posture and dystropied facial muscles. That's it, everything else is questionable because of the very bad quality of the pictures. So bad it's edging on the sarcastic.  

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 17/01/2019 11:35 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: AlphaMinus

 

...............However none of this takes into account things like opposing forces pushing things back where they were..............

Lots of great points but this one in particular wrings true. When you push hard with your tongue your facial muscles reciprocate the force by pressing inward on your teeth and jaws. When you push your tongue up or back the bottom lip engages, when you push the tongue sideways the buccinators engage. 

I experienced this first hand. In the beginning I was a massive hard mewer. The result was my facial muscles became hypertrophied and my teeth expansion rate was very slow as my doctor laminated. I suspect this is evident in Achilles1 pictures by the way.

Still I got results before braces that some of you would call amazing like a midline distima but I also got sore spots on my hard palate. That's how hard I was posturing my tongue, as much as an expander, and it all reverted back the moment I stopped.  

Gradually I reduced any direct effort and let my tongue go where it need on its own. I strengthen it with exercises such as tongue chewing and swallowing. And also I work on my neck posture. I found that has so much more influence on my tongue posture and facial muscles than anything else. I could write a whole new post about it. 

The result my facial muscles started shrinking and tongue is comfortably sitting in my palate without any effort. I wish someone shared this knowledge with me from the beginning. 

This post was modified 4 months ago by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2019 11:52 pm
drunkwithcoffee
(@drunkwithcoffee)
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

From the notes alone it doesn't seem like Mew says "no" to hard mewing, only that overall posture is the most important aspect.

In principle people who make a claim have to bring proof. If someone accuses you of wrong doing they have to have some proof. In that regard even Dr. Mike Mew's claims about mewing are not proven in adults, but at least he is a doctor and a scientist with a successful track record in treating kids with the same claims.  

Now what does the other side offer? Many claims that contradict Dr. Mike Mew claims and offer nothing in proof. The only case that has some potential of being believable is the one from neveragain. His pictures show two important changes: improved neck posture and dystropied facial muscles. That's it, everything else is questionable because of the very bad quality of the pictures. So bad it's edging on the sarcastic.  

The disconnect is that hard mewing is not a claim, merely a hypothesis.  If anyone is claiming that hard mewing is definitively effective, I join in your doubt.  But as far as I can tell, the discussion as a whole is about whether or not hard mewing *might* be effective, most of it based on intuition.  Nothing about its efficacy has been proven or disproven in either direction.

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Posted : 17/01/2019 11:57 pm
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Timbertiger

Ayla31 mentioned that about thumb pulling. I'll leave it out. Guess I'll find some calipers for precise measuring.. What is a wash out period?

It's a period of time waited after a treatment to help make sure results can be attributed to a new treatment, 2-weeks is the general standard. Making or having made a dental plaster cast is the gold standard of measuring with digital callipers

Good luck with your experiment, I tried hard mewing myself for a few years but can't prove what was a result of mewing while sleeping and what was a result of hard mewing (because I started both around the same time). Then I moved on to refocus on tongue chewing and eventually got the same pressure feelings with a suction hold that I would get while hard mewing.

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Posted : 18/01/2019 1:04 am
AlphaMinus
(@alphaminus)
Estimable Member
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@AlphaMinus

"Nobody has proven it wrong" is the reality, and also the inverse - that nobody has proven it right either.  But it does not logically follow that lack of research = the statement is wrong.  If that were the case science would never advance.  We can't throw out the hypothesis when the research hasn't even really started.  And to be honest, who knows how much research is even feasible right now because I'd bet the number of people hard mewing "correctly" 24/7 is very slim.  

To your point about the theory of hard mewing being whimsical.  I see it as the opposite.  If proper tongue posture (normal mewing) is enough to make gradual changes due to the strength of the tongue, theoretically wouldn't it make sense that increasing the force = accelerated results? Imo the theory behind hard mewing isn't any different than the one behind using an appliance.

That said, I agree that 99.9% of the anecdotal evidence (aside from Achilles' case which I find pretty convincing so far, and maybe Jamo's if his pics are legit) that gets posted is lacking.

 

It's not just that hard mewing theory is whimsical. More importantly, it's specious - i.e. it's the kind of idea that people are attracted to because it "sounds like it should be right." If it were just whimsical, it would be a completely random idea with no anchor to reality, like "when the fairy queen sneezes, a rabbit gives birth." I believe hard mewing is a specious idea that has elements of whimsy to it. 

Where has it been established that proper tongue posture makes gradual skeletal changes in adults? Without that being proven, you cannot extrapolate it into the idea that increased pressure causes faster changes.

Now, when someone comes up with a credible theory that adult skeletal movement is within reach of those with a reasonably strong tongue, and shows how permanent movement is possible with the amount of pressure a tongue can exert, then I think it would be worthwhile pursuing with experimentation. Right now hard mewing is a specious claim with an element of whimsy that would take years of incredibly hard effort to show results even under the best of circumstances, and may even cause problems. So while anyone is free to try this stuff for themselves, looking at it objectively it really doesn't seem like a prudent use of anyone's time.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/01/2019 10:01 am
AlphaMinus
(@alphaminus)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: AlphaMinus

 

...............However none of this takes into account things like opposing forces pushing things back where they were..............

Lots of great points but this one in particular wrings true. When you push hard with your tongue your facial muscles reciprocate the force by pressing inward on your teeth and jaws. When you push your tongue up or back the bottom lip engages, when you push the tongue sideways the buccinators engage. 

I experienced this first hand. In the beginning I was a massive hard mewer. The result was my facial muscles became hypertrophied and my teeth expansion rate was very slow as my doctor laminated. I suspect this is evident in Achilles1 pictures by the way.

Still I got results before braces that some of you would call amazing like a midline distima but I also got sore spots on my hard palate. That's how hard I was posturing my tongue, as much as an expander, and it all reverted back the moment I stopped.  

Gradually I reduced any direct effort and let my tongue go where it need on its own. I strengthen it with exercises such as tongue chewing and swallowing. And also I work on my neck posture. I found that has so much more influence on my tongue posture and facial muscles than anything else. I could write a whole new post about it. 

The result my facial muscles started shrinking and tongue is comfortably sitting in my palate without any effort. I wish someone shared this knowledge with me from the beginning. 

This. In terms of any benefit that upward pressure on the palate might have, I'm convinced that proper tongue swallowing exerts that pressure. 

I mean if we're talking in terms of specious theories (which is what hard mewing is), it might be pointed out that sometimes things that are hard to move require more of an oscillating push/pull exertion in order to get them mobile. I'm sure everyone has had the general experience of trying to pushing something through something else in which it's stuck, and finding that a steady force in one direction isn't enough to shift it. Sometimes you need to apply pressure in a pulse (on/off), and sometimes you need to oscillate back and forth (if you can get a good enough grip of it). When you apply pressure in a pulse, the thing you're pushing will move forward slightly and then move back when you release. With every pulse, you're moving forward a tiny bit more. I can imagine this kind of movement doing more to create permanent changes that don't relapse than simply pushing forward with constant pressure. The reason I'm imagining this is because, I presume, of prior experience I've had with the real world physics of things. However, I'm not educated enough to formalize this idea into a proper scientific theory, so it remains specious and whimsical. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/01/2019 10:13 am
drunkwithcoffee
(@drunkwithcoffee)
Trusted Member
Posted by: AlphaMinus
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@AlphaMinus

"Nobody has proven it wrong" is the reality, and also the inverse - that nobody has proven it right either.  But it does not logically follow that lack of research = the statement is wrong.  If that were the case science would never advance.  We can't throw out the hypothesis when the research hasn't even really started.  And to be honest, who knows how much research is even feasible right now because I'd bet the number of people hard mewing "correctly" 24/7 is very slim.  

To your point about the theory of hard mewing being whimsical.  I see it as the opposite.  If proper tongue posture (normal mewing) is enough to make gradual changes due to the strength of the tongue, theoretically wouldn't it make sense that increasing the force = accelerated results? Imo the theory behind hard mewing isn't any different than the one behind using an appliance.

That said, I agree that 99.9% of the anecdotal evidence (aside from Achilles' case which I find pretty convincing so far, and maybe Jamo's if his pics are legit) that gets posted is lacking.

 

It's not just that hard mewing theory is whimsical. More importantly, it's specious - i.e. it's the kind of idea that people are attracted to because it "sounds like it should be right." If it were just whimsical, it would be a completely random idea with no anchor to reality, like "when the fairy queen sneezes, a rabbit gives birth." I believe hard mewing is a specious idea that has elements of whimsy to it. 

Where has it been established that proper tongue posture makes gradual skeletal changes in adults? Without that being proven, you cannot extrapolate it into the idea that increased pressure causes faster changes.

Now, when someone comes up with a credible theory that adult skeletal movement is within reach of those with a reasonably strong tongue, and shows how permanent movement is possible with the amount of pressure a tongue can exert, then I think it would be worthwhile pursuing with experimentation. Right now hard mewing is a specious claim with an element of whimsy that would take years of incredibly hard effort to show results even under the best of circumstances, and may even cause problems. So while anyone is free to try this stuff for themselves, looking at it objectively it really doesn't seem like a prudent use of anyone's time.

But science is about determining reality, not logical inference based on past ideas.  The concept that people are attracted to it because it sounds like it should be right has no bearing on science/the reality.  A lot of scientific advancements started out sounding like woo woo/hippy dippy crap but were then gradually proven over time.  In fact, I'd argue hypotheses by nature have a hippy dippy element to them because they're new and unproven.

All this is not to argue in support or against hard mewing.  My point is just that we have to be careful not to throw out the hypothesis before the research has been conducted.  It would be unscientific to write off hard mewing without any proper research just because it seems whimsical on the surface.

I agree that no one has produced concrete evidence that even "soft" mewing can cause skeletal changes in adults.  However, I can see the thinking behind hard mewing in that in many things in life, increasing the force = changes (for example, working out).  So for me, I understand where the hard mewing theory comes from.  Now it's about testing that hypothesis.     

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Posted : 18/01/2019 12:51 pm
Odys
 Odys
(@odys)
Eminent Member

I really don’t understand either the requirement for proof or the quest for the best method decrying all others. I understand that dentists must proceed on this basis because they are recommending treatments to others and because their business model rests on them doing things to their patients. We are all here because that has not provided a solution. We are not just here in search of a cheap or free DIY way of achieving what they could if only we had the money to pay them.

We are pioneers proceeding through uncertainty. We can persuade ourselves to take actions that involve risk that we could not in good conscience recommend to others. We are proceeding on a basis of trial and error emboldened in some cases by desperation. In this spirit I have done things that I do not feel comfortable recommending to others here, at least not yet. Jamo emphasises the importance of developing a high level of awareness of one’s body. I am aware that there may be things that I can do without disaster that someone starting this could not. But all of us can do things to our own jaws that a dentist could not, because our body gives us the feedback that we are approaching danger and we can stop at once.

I think there is much more danger and less likelihood of success in finding one technique and pursuing it all the time. I think there is merit in pursuing a number of techniques at the same time for both these reasons.

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Posted : 18/01/2019 2:07 pm
Achilles1
(@achilles1)
Trusted Member

I'd like to touch on some of the ideas in this discussion.

@drunkwithcoffee I agree that my case might be unique for multiple reasons:

1) I started with an IMW of approximately 40mm

2) I has very good facial form until 19 years old, when I adopted a sedentary lifestyle

3) I have a background in kinesiology and understand very well how to grow muscle, improve form, etc. 

4) I am an extremely determined individual, usually to the point of obsession 

 

@greensmoothies I stopped thumb pulling last summer and there's almost nil chance that my progress has been made because of it. 

@timbertiger If you are going to hard mew, make sure you know how to soft mew with good technique. You wouldn't bench press 250 lbs if you couldn't lift 100 lbs with great form, now would you? Work hard, and good luck!

@abdulrahman my buccinators have done nothing but thin, sounds like your palate is too narrow still for the tongue to gain some good lateral pressure on the palate. Your facial muscles should never be engaged when mewing, as this is an indicator of improper technique. Most of the hard forces are really coming from the correct neck posture

Also, remember guys, "strength" is not a finite measurement. It is relative. One man's hard mew is another man's soft mew! Imagine how much tension and strength is running through a model's skull, but in perfect balance; perfect harmony between the tongue and masseters. I actually don't hard mew anymore. What was once difficult is now easy. Now this intense pressure I exert is just who I am and what I do: effortless.

Feel free to debate, I'll be over here making gains. 

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Posted : 19/01/2019 3:58 am
MrMaxilla liked
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Achilles1

I'd like to touch on some of the ideas in this discussion.

@drunkwithcoffee I agree that my case might be unique for multiple reasons:

1) I started with an IMW of approximately 40mm

2) I has very good facial form until 19 years old, when I adopted a sedentary lifestyle

3) I have a background in kinesiology and understand very well how to grow muscle, improve form, etc. 

4) I am an extremely determined individual, usually to the point of obsession 

 

1) Starting at 40mm IMW is a huge advantage not just because it offers more space (less resistance) for your tongue to posture freely, it also means your oral muscles are already functioning pretty good to begin with. 

3) For sure you are aware that different muscles require different forces to strengthen and stretch with calf muscles on the hard end and neck muscles on the light end.

4) There are several of us on the forum that fit this description and more, but we weren't all able to achieve results, so I hope we can keep this out of the equation. 

 

@timbertiger If you are going to hard mew, make sure you know how to soft mew with good technique. You wouldn't bench press 250 lbs if you couldn't lift 100 lbs with great form, now would you? Work hard, and good luck!

I would like to tie this to the point #3. Unlike the pectorals, certain muscles are never trained with extra strength rather with extra repetition. Some can't be trained with force at all such as the erector spinae muscles. Dr. Mew is clear about strengthening the tongue with tongue chewing and swallowing.

@abdulrahman my buccinators have done nothing but thin, sounds like your palate is too narrow still for the tongue to gain some good lateral pressure on the palate. Your facial muscles should never be engaged when mewing, as this is an indicator of improper technique. Most of the hard forces are really coming from the correct neck posture

My upper IMW was 34.3mm and increased to 38.7mm, then dropped to 38.2 as my teeth settled in after removing the expander. You can read about my experience in this thread

Yes, facial muscles should never be engaged. I just want to point out that if you check any posts about hard mewing you will almost never find this point getting any mention until very recently. You know what I am alluding to?

Also, remember guys, "strength" is not a finite measurement. It is relative. One man's hard mew is another man's soft mew! Imagine how much tension and strength is running through a model's skull, but in perfect balance; perfect harmony between the tongue and masseters. I actually don't hard mew anymore. What was once difficult is now easy. Now this intense pressure I exert is just who I am and what I do: effortless.

This sounds all so nice but also so vague. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 19/01/2019 6:11 am
AlphaMinus
(@alphaminus)
Estimable Member
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee
Posted by: AlphaMinus
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

@AlphaMinus

"Nobody has proven it wrong" is the reality, and also the inverse - that nobody has proven it right either.  But it does not logically follow that lack of research = the statement is wrong.  If that were the case science would never advance.  We can't throw out the hypothesis when the research hasn't even really started.  And to be honest, who knows how much research is even feasible right now because I'd bet the number of people hard mewing "correctly" 24/7 is very slim.  

To your point about the theory of hard mewing being whimsical.  I see it as the opposite.  If proper tongue posture (normal mewing) is enough to make gradual changes due to the strength of the tongue, theoretically wouldn't it make sense that increasing the force = accelerated results? Imo the theory behind hard mewing isn't any different than the one behind using an appliance.

That said, I agree that 99.9% of the anecdotal evidence (aside from Achilles' case which I find pretty convincing so far, and maybe Jamo's if his pics are legit) that gets posted is lacking.

 

It's not just that hard mewing theory is whimsical. More importantly, it's specious - i.e. it's the kind of idea that people are attracted to because it "sounds like it should be right." If it were just whimsical, it would be a completely random idea with no anchor to reality, like "when the fairy queen sneezes, a rabbit gives birth." I believe hard mewing is a specious idea that has elements of whimsy to it. 

Where has it been established that proper tongue posture makes gradual skeletal changes in adults? Without that being proven, you cannot extrapolate it into the idea that increased pressure causes faster changes.

Now, when someone comes up with a credible theory that adult skeletal movement is within reach of those with a reasonably strong tongue, and shows how permanent movement is possible with the amount of pressure a tongue can exert, then I think it would be worthwhile pursuing with experimentation. Right now hard mewing is a specious claim with an element of whimsy that would take years of incredibly hard effort to show results even under the best of circumstances, and may even cause problems. So while anyone is free to try this stuff for themselves, looking at it objectively it really doesn't seem like a prudent use of anyone's time.

But science is about determining reality, not logical inference based on past ideas.  The concept that people are attracted to it because it sounds like it should be right has no bearing on science/the reality.  A lot of scientific advancements started out sounding like woo woo/hippy dippy crap but were then gradually proven over time.  In fact, I'd argue hypotheses by nature have a hippy dippy element to them because they're new and unproven.

All this is not to argue in support or against hard mewing.  My point is just that we have to be careful not to throw out the hypothesis before the research has been conducted.  It would be unscientific to write off hard mewing without any proper research just because it seems whimsical on the surface.

I agree that no one has produced concrete evidence that even "soft" mewing can cause skeletal changes in adults.  However, I can see the thinking behind hard mewing in that in many things in life, increasing the force = changes (for example, working out).  So for me, I understand where the hard mewing theory comes from.  Now it's about testing that hypothesis.     

I agree that it's worth pursuing research and perhaps experimentation to see if there's anything in it - I just don't believe that, in the absence of any credible evidence whatsoever that it works, that applying a constant and potentially harmful upward pressure with the tongue for years at a time is a scientifically efficient use of anyone's time. 

This really illustrates the stark difference between mewing and hard mewing. 

Mewing is just tongue posture. Once you've gotten the technique down, there is no more effort involved. It's simply where the tongue "sits." That correct tongue posture is a positive force in the body, is not disputed. 

Hard mewing is a constant unnatural act which is said to take years to effect change. Nobody has the slightest idea whether it actually works or not. 

To commit to a life of hard mewing is a serious undertaking. You have allocated a significant chunk of your daily, finite energy stores in order to apply a constant, unbroken force with a muscle. That's energy/thought that could be used for something else. To undertake that investment, it would seem prudent to make sure that there's enough basis behind it. After all, if you were going to spend a significant sum of money and time on a scientific experiment, you would do as much research as possible beforehand to ensure that the experiment wasn't a waste of that time and money. But to date, nobody has been able to show that "applying pressure with the tongue should move the maxilla" even at a credible theoretical level. 

Childhood mewing, i.e. supporting the maxilla during its growth so that it doesn't grow downwards - totally credible theory, and one which doesn't require the investment of a constant, conscious force to execute. 

Adult mewing, i.e. pushing the maxilla into a new position - as of yet lacking even in theoretical credibility, requires years of hard effort to test. 

Of course anyone is entitled to go ahead and test it. I'm just suggesting that if they wish to be scientists, there are far more constructive and fruitful uses of their time. 

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Posted : 19/01/2019 12:10 pm
Timbertiger
(@timbertiger)
Active Member

Thanks @Achilles1 ! You've inspired me. I've been practicing proper oral posture for about 2 years now, but I lost hope that dramatic changes to the skull could occur in an adult until I saw your photos. I have the disadvantage of having an extremely small palate and only having 28 teeth to work with but at least I can get the entire tongue on the roof of my mouth and keep my mouth closed day and night without having to remind myself now. I also have the advantage of having an obsessive streak to my personality so I know I'm capable of carrying out something that requires this amount of determination. Thank you for the inspiration!

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Posted : 19/01/2019 1:09 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator
Posted by: AlphaMinus

 

Mewing is just tongue posture. Once you've gotten the technique down, there is no more effort involved. It's simply where the tongue "sits." That correct tongue posture is a positive force in the body, is not disputed. 

Hard mewing is a constant unnatural act which is said to take years to effect change. Nobody has the slightest idea whether it actually works or not. 

Note that the musculature is not static. It is dynamic: the muscles respond to the demands of the circumstances. There is no single fixed intensity with which you are supposed to hold your tongue against the palate, any more than there is a single fixed intensity with which you are supposed to grip with your hand, or contract your abs.

If your days consist of plenty of physically demanding activity, you will be naturally mewing hard large portions of the day. When you do hard work, your musculature is working hard. The tongue is no exception. Simply keeping the tongue at the palate IS NOT proper posture if it's not providing sufficient anatomical support in whatever you are doing.  The only time when merely resting the tongue on the palate can provide anatomically sufficient forces is when your body is at rest.

Ultimately mewing is a spectrum of light and hard forces, in which your location should change depending on what you are doing. Mike argues that it is more important that you *are* on this spectrum, rather than *where* on it you are. Which is true: the most important thing is that you ARE mewing. However, this in itself does NOT mean that the force you mew with is not also important. 

Posted by: Abdulrahman

Unlike the pectorals, certain muscles are never trained with extra strength rather with extra repetition. Some can't be trained with force at all such as the erector spinae muscles. (1) Dr. Mew is clear about strengthening the tongue with tongue chewing and swallowing. 

 

Yes, facial muscles should never be engaged. I just want to point out that if you check any posts about hard mewing you will almost never find this point getting any mention until very recently. You know what I am alluding to? (2)

 

 

(1) What do you mean by this? Erector spinae are one of the main muscles involved in deadlift. There are huge forces involved in deadlifts.

In terms of strength training, it's not inherently significant whether you are pressing the tongue against a gum-filled palate,  or the bare palate itself. The reason Mew recommends tongue chewing is that the plastering gum on the palate simulates having a lower palatal vault, which allows the tongue be engaged in a more complete manner. It's a workaround exercise for narrow palates, not a secret to tongue strength in itself. 

(2) It should be obvious, no? If not engaging facial muscles is essential to tongue posturing, does it need to be restated that when mewing with any kind of modified intensity, nothing changes in this regard? Common sense is permitted.

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by Progress
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Posted : 19/01/2019 1:14 pm
AlphaMinus
(@alphaminus)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: AlphaMinus

 

Mewing is just tongue posture. Once you've gotten the technique down, there is no more effort involved. It's simply where the tongue "sits." That correct tongue posture is a positive force in the body, is not disputed. 

Hard mewing is a constant unnatural act which is said to take years to effect change. Nobody has the slightest idea whether it actually works or not. 

Note that the musculature is not static. It is dynamic: the muscles respond to the demands of the circumstances. There is no single fixed intensity with which you are supposed to hold your tongue against the palate, any more than there is a single fixed intensity with which you are supposed to grip with your hand, or contract your abs.

If your days consist of plenty of physically demanding activity, you will be naturally mewing hard large portions of the day. When you do hard work, your musculature is working hard. The tongue is no exception. Simply keeping the tongue at the palate IS NOT proper posture if it's not providing sufficient anatomical support in whatever you are doing.  The only time when merely resting the tongue on the palate can provide anatomically sufficient forces is when your body is at rest.

Ultimately mewing is a spectrum of light and hard forces, in which your location should change depending on what you are doing. Mike argues that it is more important that you *are* on this spectrum, rather than *where* on it you are. Which is true: the most important thing is that you ARE mewing. However, this in itself does NOT mean that the force you mew with is not also important. 

But note that that was my point, that there is no need to consciously "hard mew" anyway because the upward force from natural acts like tongue swallowing will provide that force. When I'm weightlifting for example, I push hard with my tongue when I exert. I believe this is Mike Mew's opinion on hard mewing too, that tongue swallowing provides a significant upwards force. 

But of course none of this upward force has been shown to result in skeletal changes in adults.

This post was modified 4 months ago by AlphaMinus
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Posted : 19/01/2019 4:56 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator
Posted by: AlphaMinus
 

But note that that was my point, that there is no need to consciously "hard mew" anyway because the upward force from natural acts like tongue swallowing will provide that force. When I'm weightlifting for example, I push hard with my tongue when I exert. I believe this is Mike Mew's opinion on hard mewing too, that tongue swallowing provides a significant upwards force. (1)

But of course none of this upward force has been shown to result in skeletal changes in adults. (2)

(1) If your lifestyle encourages you to mew hard for multiple hours a day, good for you. That is definitely desirable. Most aren't this active, which is why they will likely benefit from hard, conscious effort - especially in the beginning when the tongue is weaker than the rest of the musculature. Even this effort will eventually become subconscious, as @achilles1 also found out. Swallowing is either not enough to train the tongue up to the level of fitness it needs to reach, or I'm just not able to perform it effectively. An exercise I've done alot is resisting the jaws with the tongue while eating in a way that combines normal chewing with tongue chewing.

(2) Proponents of sciencism will have to walk several steps behind the pioneers. The authoritative weight of science in such a novel field as this is practically nonexistent. Time for such circlejerks will come eventually, but for now, it's not uncalled for to completely disregard all appeals to science. Absence of research should not be used as an excuse to shoo people away from claiming control of their own wellbeing.

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Posted : 19/01/2019 7:30 pm
Achilles1 liked
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

(1) What do you mean by this? Erector spinae are one of the main muscles involved in deadlift. There are huge forces involved in deadlifts.

In terms of strength training, it's not inherently significant whether you are pressing the tongue against a gum-filled palate,  or the bare palate itself. The reason Mew recommends tongue chewing is that the plastering gum on the palate simulates having a lower palatal vault, which allows the tongue be engaged in a more complete manner. It's a workaround exercise for narrow palates, not a secret to tongue strength in itself. 

(2) It should be obvious, no? If not engaging facial muscles is essential to tongue posturing, does it need to be restated that when mewing with any kind of modified intensity, nothing changes in this regard? Common sense is permitted.

I should be specific, the deep spine muscles such as the ones that connect between the vertebrates. Those you can't strengthen directly or even stretch or move. They are stimulated by other muscles.

Tongue chewing with or without gum is not the issue, it's repetitive motion versus isometric contraction which "hard mewing" advocates.

That's not what I mean, after all who in this forum knew exactly what they were doing from the start. The point is that advocates of "hard mewing" keep adding conditions to support their case which they have never did when they started advocating the concept. 

This post was modified 4 months ago by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 19/01/2019 9:50 pm
Achilles1
(@achilles1)
Trusted Member
Posted by: Progress

(2) Proponents of sciencism will have to walk several steps behind the pioneers. The authoritative weight of science in such a novel field as this is practically nonexistent. Time for such circlejerks will come eventually, but for now, it's not uncalled for to completely disregard all appeals to science. Absence of research should not be used as an excuse to shoo people away from claiming control of their own wellbeing.

Eloquently put. 

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Posted : 19/01/2019 11:01 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Achilles1
Posted by: Progress

(2) Proponents of sciencism will have to walk several steps behind the pioneers. The authoritative weight of science in such a novel field as this is practically nonexistent. Time for such circlejerks will come eventually, but for now, it's not uncalled for to completely disregard all appeals to science. Absence of research should not be used as an excuse to shoo people away from claiming control of their own wellbeing.

Eloquently put. 

Just a quick question, do you both consider Mike Mew a pioneer? If yes, what do you make of him not recommending "hard mewing"? Does that make him less of a pioneer?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 19/01/2019 11:53 pm
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Achilles1

@greensmoothies I stopped thumb pulling last summer and there's almost nil chance that my progress has been made because of it. 

...

I actually don't hard mew anymore. What was once difficult is now easy. Now this intense pressure I exert is just who I am and what I do: effortless.

I can deduce information about your progress from your anecdotes. In your post Re: your thumb pulling experience and its effect on your maxilla:

[thumb pulling] caused movement forward and upwards because it loosened the sutures.

Congrats. This is a result that Mike Mew or anyone else has yet to prove that Mewing or even hard mewing alone can do. This is noteworthy for those people interested in discovering what reportedly works to move the maxilla upwards and forwards in adults.

Also just curious about your decision to quit hard mewing @timbertiger take note. Any tips on how to get to the effortless state? I've gotten there myself, although it was a very long journey for me. I believe a wide palate and jaw position are some key contributing factors. Would be interested to hear what you or others believe as well. I also believe tongue strength increase has contributed to getting to this point, from tongue chewing and the chewing exercise Progress describes ITT, something I originally read in the fagga thread iirc. Maybe some other things but I need more time to figure that out.

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Posted : 20/01/2019 2:45 am
Achilles1
(@achilles1)
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Achilles1
Posted by: Progress

(2) Proponents of sciencism will have to walk several steps behind the pioneers. The authoritative weight of science in such a novel field as this is practically nonexistent. Time for such circlejerks will come eventually, but for now, it's not uncalled for to completely disregard all appeals to science. Absence of research should not be used as an excuse to shoo people away from claiming control of their own wellbeing.

Eloquently put. 

Just a quick question, do you both consider Mike Mew a pioneer? If yes, what do you make of him not recommending "hard mewing"? Does that make him less of a pioneer?

Depends on what you mean by "pioneer". He has certainly shared great ideas. Speaking under public gaze is much different than what one might privately discuss amongst peers. No professional would  recommend any practices that have not been properly tested first. This would be scientifically disingenuous. 

Also I don't know enough about the history of this stuff, but I think I heard John Mew furthered ideas his father had, which was borrowed from other Twentieth-Century practitioners. So...pioneer or not? You tell me. 

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Posted : 20/01/2019 3:00 am
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Achilles1

Depends on what you mean by "pioneer". He has certainly shared great ideas. Speaking under public gaze is much different than what one might privately discuss amongst peers. No professional would  recommend any practices that have not been properly tested first. This would be scientifically disingenuous. 

Also I don't know enough about the history of this stuff, but I think I heard John Mew furthered ideas his father had, which was borrowed from other Twentieth-Century practitioners. So...pioneer or not? You tell me. 

I use it in the same way it's defined in the English language, here is dictionary.com:

one who is first or among the earliest in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress: pioneers in cancer research.

In that sense Mike is a pioneer and his father, John, is more so. After all the later defined the role of the tongue in orthodontics and introduced orthotropics.

And it does not matter if they are both basing their work on previous research because every pioneer from Galileo to Newton learned from their predecessors, which brings me to the most important point. 

Where did every person who is advocating "hard mewing" get their ideas from? Answer: Mike Mew, but yet the concept contradicts his ideas. We know from his feedback to the questions in the above list about "hard mewing" that he thinks its incorrect.  

You see he is being clear in his answer. It's not like he is being vague to leave room for it as you might be implying in the "speaking under public gaze" point. 

Guys you are going against your own source and in the process sharing potentially harmful medical advice with often times little kids. There are kids coming on the forum wanting to know if they should remove braces mid treatment because of mewing. They read the comments of nevergain and think they can do the same with "hard mewing". So at least if you want to share advice with people be clear about all the problems of this concept.       

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 20/01/2019 4:09 am
Odys
 Odys
(@odys)
Eminent Member

I have no doubt that Mike Mew mews. He has told us he does. John Mew gave the world the Tropic Premise. Mike Mew has taken it further into body posture and exercises, I am thinking in particular of his one with spreading gum across the roof of the mouth. He has spoken a bit about starting with a very narrow IMW, but I think he would i. Such a case advise using a device to get your mouth wider before mewing. Anyhow to me it is quite clear that nothing he has said really assists with widening a very narrow palate with the tongue. Posture cannot do it. One cannot adopt the posture. One needs to widen by exercises. This is new territory. Someone else needs to explore it. His conjecture might be better than ours but it is still not worth much. Similarly as he does not advocate hard mewing and has not done it himself, it is new territory and his views have similar value. I assume that he started to explore mewing type exercises with a reasonably wide jaw. He is physically incapable of having the experience most of us will have to go through. Herein another thing we here do not recognise enough, particularly when we search for orthodoxy: someone with a narrow tipped in cross bite as a starting point has got a very different job to do compared to someone with 40mm IMW and neatly orthodontised teeth who thinks they would like to look like a model. The experience of one will be of limited use to another. Nature, especially nature gone wrong, is complicated. It is not an exam question set with a single answer for us to find.

For me posture, according to the Tropic Premise, is something I do at night. In the day I am doing exercises and with some force. That’s what hard mewing means to me. I am not holding posture forcefully. 

Taking advice off a forum like this is difficult. It requires skill in discernment. This is not just sifting out the deluded fools and others who have managed to be straight wrong. It is trying to recognise great truths that are poorly expressed. It is trying to learn things from others who are having different experiences from your own, where you can. I try to proceed with caution, but boldly. I need to as I recognise that if I don’t cross new territory I will fail, and failure is more often than knocking a tooth out going to be not succeeding quickly enough.

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Posted : 20/01/2019 1:46 pm
Achilles1 liked
Achilles1
(@achilles1)
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Achilles1

Depends on what you mean by "pioneer". He has certainly shared great ideas. Speaking under public gaze is much different than what one might privately discuss amongst peers. No professional would  recommend any practices that have not been properly tested first. This would be scientifically disingenuous. 

Also I don't know enough about the history of this stuff, but I think I heard John Mew furthered ideas his father had, which was borrowed from other Twentieth-Century practitioners. So...pioneer or not? You tell me. 

I use it in the same way it's defined in the English language, here is dictionary.com:

one who is first or among the earliest in any field of inquiry, enterprise, or progress: pioneers in cancer research.

In that sense Mike is a pioneer and his father, John, is more so. After all the later defined the role of the tongue in orthodontics and introduced orthotropics.

And it does not matter if they are both basing their work on previous research because every pioneer from Galileo to Newton learned from their predecessors, which brings me to the most important point. 

Where did every person who is advocating "hard mewing" get their ideas from? Answer: Mike Mew, but yet the concept contradicts his ideas. We know from his feedback to the questions in the above list about "hard mewing" that he thinks its incorrect.  

You see he is being clear in his answer. It's not like he is being vague to leave room for it as you might be implying in the "speaking under public gaze" point. 

Guys you are going against your own source and in the process sharing potentially harmful medical advice with often times little kids. There are kids coming on the forum wanting to know if they should remove braces mid treatment because of mewing. They read the comments of nevergain and think they can do the same with "hard mewing". So at least if you want to share advice with people be clear about all the problems of this concept.       

1) thanks for defining the word according to the dictionary and completely missing my point about relativism (come on buddy)

2)How did everyone get their hard mewing idea from a man who discredits it? So your saying that pushing on something vs pushing on something harder are contradicting (read: opposing) forces?

3)Yes, he is clear in his answer. Mike can be no more than an empirical journalist of sorts, reporting PROVEN INFORMATION. 

Your lack of abstraction in this topic astounds me. I am not responsible for people who fall and die rock climbing after they read my forum post about how much I like free climbing at 100ft.

If a medical treatment works on 13% of a given sample, is it effective or ineffective? Neither. Can it be applied to the vast majority of patients? No. Is it a useless treatment? No; particularly if, of that 13%, a deduction of commonalities is possible. 

 

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Posted : 20/01/2019 2:19 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator

@abdulrahman About deep spine muscles, you are probably right. I'm not sure what you mean by ''advocates of hard mewing keep adding conditions to support' their case". Could you explain this a bit further? What conditions are you primarily referring to? In my case, I'm seeking to explain why hard mewing works, rather than whether or not it works at all, because on a personal level I already know it works in a way that is superior to gentle mewing. My explanations can be wrong, but my conclusion over the legitimacy of hard mewing has already been proven true in my eyes. Despite this, I sympathize with those those who disagree. I have not proven anything. I'm just following my own individual conception of Truth and sharing it for the consideration of others

Regarding the Mews, I do consider them as pioneers of sorts. Note that pioneers are individual pathlighters, there is no cohesive collective of pioneers... a collection of pioneers would be  'a movement'. Perhaps it could be said that Mike Mew is both a pioneer and a leader of a movement.

It's good to note that  individual pioneers don't necessarily hold the same beliefs with each other. Many pioneers contradict each other. Some pioneers build upon the speculative work of other pioneers. I think i'd fall in this category. This is not to imply that I'm better than (or even equal to) Mew, only that I use Mew's theories as a foundation with which to reach an even higher branches of knowledge.

If you picture the general consensus as a circle, pioneers sprout out of this circle to every direction. Being a pioneer in itself doesn't mean that you are right or wrong, only that you are walking on an uncharted territory. The judgement of the legitimacy of their path will come later. History tends to paint pioneers in a way that makes them seem geniuses ahead of their time, because only the pioneers who were right will leave their mark on the pages of history.

I fully get your concern over children coming to this forum and making unwise decisions based on what others say. Yet, I can't help but feel devoid of responsibility over the decisions someone makes based on what they read on the internet. I'd like to believe that anyone is able to discern between truth and fiction themselves. And those who do rash decisions that end up biting them in the [Rude Language will not be tolerated], well, they kind of deserve it. It's harsh, but also just. Ultimately everybody should be responsible for themselves.

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Posted : 20/01/2019 3:04 pm
Achilles1
(@achilles1)
Trusted Member

@greensmoothies sorry I wasn't clear when I said I don't hard mew anymore. The point I was trying to make is: Let's say I exert 2 pounds of pressure on my palette (I know, this is a number I pulled out my a**). Six months ago this would have been "hard" mewing. Now, maybe I exert 3 pounds of pressure and it's easy. That's what I meant about models, or athletes, or soldiers: Face looks calm and restful, muscles exert great force. 

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Posted : 20/01/2019 5:00 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Achilles1

1) thanks for defining the word according to the dictionary and completely missing my point about relativism (come on buddy)

2)How did everyone get their hard mewing idea from a man who discredits it? So your saying that pushing on something vs pushing on something harder are contradicting (read: opposing) forces?

3)Yes, he is clear in his answer. Mike can be no more than an empirical journalist of sorts, reporting PROVEN INFORMATION. 

Your lack of abstraction in this topic astounds me. I am not responsible for people who fall and die rock climbing after they read my forum post about how much I like free climbing at 100ft.

If a medical treatment works on 13% of a given sample, is it effective or ineffective? Neither. Can it be applied to the vast majority of patients? No. Is it a useless treatment? No; particularly if, of that 13%, a deduction of commonalities is possible. 

 

1. Are you sure I missed the point? Or perhaps I am telling you indirectly that I won't play along. 

2. The entire topic of mewing originated from Dr. Mike Mew, "hard mewing" was the product of some of his fans and followers. It's unmerited diversion.

3. His entire practice is considered alternative.

You are responsible for your claims and when you make such a claim people ask you for proof.

If it works on a segment then it's studied to understand the reasons not generalized on everybody. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 21/01/2019 12:25 am
Timbertiger
(@timbertiger)
Active Member

I suspect this thread is full of orthodontists.

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Posted : 21/01/2019 11:03 am
megamandude
(@megamandude)
Trusted Member

Although I appreciate Dr Mew for introducing us to the importance of tongue posture, I feel like you guys take his answers like the gospel when he (or anyone in this world) simply doesn't have enough evidence for a clear answer on hard mewing. In order us to find a definitive answer, someone will have to take risks and document them 

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Posted : 21/01/2019 12:45 pm
Mewb liked
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

I'm not sure what you mean by ''advocates of hard mewing keep adding conditions to support' their case". Could you explain this a bit further? What conditions are you primarily referring to?

Every time someone points out a flaw or contradiction in the concept they resort to making new claims to cover their bases. For example when one points out that for some some people hard mewing had negative consequences they reply "well it worked for me, and by the way I started with bigger IMW, and I know what I am doing, and actually I was not pushing too hard, and you should know not to engage your facial muscles, etc".

Sure, but guys why didn't you point all of that out when you were declaring your method to be the correct one?   

In my case, I'm seeking to explain why hard mewing works, rather than whether or not it works at all, because on a personal level I already know it works in a way that is superior to gentle mewing. My explanations can be wrong, but my conclusion over the legitimacy of hard mewing has already been proven true in my eyes. Despite this, I sympathize with those those who disagree. I have not proven anything. I'm just following my own individual conception of Truth and sharing it for the consideration of others

You see this is really great. There was a point in time in the forum where, as vague as it is, "hard mewing" was being promoted as the correct method, but thankfully its not as much anymore.

Regarding the Mews, I do consider them as pioneers of sorts. Note that pioneers are individual pathlighters, there is no cohesive collective of pioneers... a collection of pioneers would be  'a movement'. Perhaps it could be said that Mike Mew is both a pioneer and a leader of a movement.

It's good to note that  individual pioneers don't necessarily hold the same beliefs with each other. Many pioneers contradict each other. Some pioneers build upon the speculative work of other pioneers. I think i'd fall in this category. This is not to imply that I'm better than (or even equal to) Mew, only that I use Mew's theories as a foundation with which to reach an even higher branches of knowledge.

If you picture the general consensus as a circle, pioneers sprout out of this circle to every direction. Being a pioneer in itself doesn't mean that you are right or wrong, only that you are walking on an uncharted territory. The judgement of the legitimacy of their path will come later. History tends to paint pioneers in a way that makes them seem geniuses ahead of their time, because only the pioneers who were right will leave their mark on the pages of history.

Thanks for stating this clearly. I always felt that many people in this forum had the mindset that their opinions were equal to doctors and scientists. Sure, maybe over subjective topics such as  aesthetics, but in fields of science this is not true. For one to be at the same level he needs to follow the scientific method of research and documentation. That is not to say what our experiences are not important, it's just means we often time need help to get to the bottom of things.

I fully get your concern over children coming to this forum and making unwise decisions based on what others say. Yet, I can't help but feel devoid of responsibility over the decisions someone makes based on what they read on the internet. I'd like to believe that anyone is able to discern between truth and fiction themselves. And those who do rash decisions that end up biting them in the [Rude Language will not be tolerated], well, they kind of deserve it. It's harsh, but also just. Ultimately everybody should be responsible for themselves.

Look at the number of past topics that declare "hard mewing" as the correct way and dismiss so called "soft mewing" for all sorts of unsubstantiated reasons. Doesn't that count as misleading people even if that is not the intention? 

There is just allot of people making big claims that they can't explain and worse back up with evidence.

By the way did you notice how little attention the tongue sweep and micro swallow gets in this forum? Even though they are an integral part of tongue posture and suction hold?

We still have a long way on this forum before we can make any claims of our own and unfortunately Dr. Mike Mew is not helping much in that process.  

This post was modified 4 months ago by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 22/01/2019 5:55 am
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Timbertiger

I suspect this thread is full of orthodontists.

lol, unfortunately there was a very good one that stopped visiting the forum because of hostile attitudes he encountered.

Posted by: megamandude

Although I appreciate Dr Mew for introducing us to the importance of tongue posture, I feel like you guys take his answers like the gospel when he (or anyone in this world) simply doesn't have enough evidence for a clear answer on hard mewing. In order us to find a definitive answer, someone will have to take risks and document them 

No way man, he has his issues, but at least he stands on some sort of ground when he makes his claims. Others are high up in the air.

This post was modified 4 months ago by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 22/01/2019 5:57 am
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman

 

Every time someone points out a flaw or contradiction in the concept they resort to making new claims to cover their bases. For example when one points out that for some some people hard mewing had negative consequences they reply "well it worked for me, and by the way I started with bigger IMW, and I know what I am doing, and actually I was not pushing too hard, and you should know not to engage your facial muscles, etc".

Sure, but guys why didn't you point all of that out when you were declaring your method to be the correct one?   

I have to say I don't understand your view at all. What flaws or contradictions are you talking about? To my knowledge, people who have had negative experiences with mewing have been mewing wrong. As such, this not a matter of how hard they have been mewing, only how they have been mewing. Think of any exercise: bad form is bad form regardless of how much you are lifting. It will all lead to injury eventually. Does the correct technique for barbell squat suddenly change when you add more weight? Of course not. Likewise, the correct technique for tongue posture is always the same. Only the load differs. This should be common sense.

A user elaborating on what has worked for them is not "adding conditions to support their case". It's elaborating on what has worked for them. If you did not know tension in facial muscles is not part of tongue posture, that is on YOU, not anyone else. All public proponents of tongue posture have been clear about this aspect of tongue posturing.

 

You see this is really great. There was a point in time in the forum where, as vague as it is, "hard mewing" was being promoted as the correct method, but thankfully its not as much anymore.

Such point of time never existed. You seem to be hellbent on positioning "hard mewing" and "soft mewing" as some kind of contradictions of each other. I don't think anyone has been saying that hard mewing is 'the correct method', only a method. People have found it useful, hence they have been talking about it. It's you who has been reducing a variety of anecdotes down to black & white claims.

 

Look at the number of past topics that declare "hard mewing" as the correct way and dismiss so called "soft mewing" for all sorts of unsubstantiated reasons. Doesn't that count as misleading people even if that is not the intention? 

I'm not aware of such topics. If you are, please post links so I may look into it.

By the way did you notice how little attention the tongue sweep and micro swallow gets in this forum? Even though they are an integral part of tongue posture and suction hold?.  

Not surprising. I personally have found little value in neither. Not even Mew seems to consider these 'integral parts' in his new videos. He has begun putting more emphasis on posture and tongue chewing ( see his video from last fall ).

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by Progress
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Posted : 22/01/2019 12:18 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

I have to say I don't understand your view at all. What flaws or contradictions are you talking about? To my knowledge, people who have had negative experiences with mewing have been mewing wrong. As such, this not a matter of how hard they have been mewing, only how they have been mewing. Think of any exercise: bad form is bad form regardless of how much you are lifting. It will all lead to injury eventually. Does the correct technique for barbell squat suddenly change when you add more weight? Of course not. Likewise, the correct technique for tongue posture is always the same. Only the load differs. This should be common sense.

A user elaborating on what has worked for them is not "adding conditions to support their case". It's elaborating on what has worked for them. If you did not know tension in facial muscles is not part of tongue posture, that is on YOU, not anyone else. All public proponents of tongue posture have been clear about this aspect of tongue posturing.

That is correct, bad form eventually brings bad results regardless of effort. Weight lifting is a great example. When I lived in the States I used to go to a gym where big body builders did their lifting. Between reps I would listen to their conversations as they discussed their routines and techniques. 

They never referred to any sources. It was always about what "felt good". They always had an opinion about everything. When they disagreed about anything they still agreed that "everyone is different". And they all had repetitive injuries (especially in the back and shoulders) but could not understand that their approach was the cause. 

They were too ignorant to understand and too arrogant to admit, in the rear occasion they did, that body building like much of life is governed by natural rules, not their personal whims and feelings. 

The same applies to mewing. Your "hard mewing" technique is giving you expansion in the molars right now, but imagine if 10 years down the line you go to the doctor complaining of headaches and pain in the face. After so many tests and many wrong diagnosis the doctor comes back saying I am sorry to inform you that you have an advance form of bone dystrophy in the face and cranium. 

We don't understand the cause of this we but theorize its caused by some emotional or physiological condition. He asks you do you clench very hard, do you struggle while swallowing, do you press your tongue against the palate very hard? You answer no to all of them because after 10 years of pressing your tongue so hard it has become so natural for your tongue to do that, you do not even notice it but your bones do. Heck from what you guys write you already achieved this level where you are exerting high forces subconsciously.  

I really hope none of this happens. I just bring it as an example of how we don't really know much about this topic. We are just experimenting on our bodies using the minimal information available in the videos of Mike Mew. That's why it's always best to consult with the source, because after all he is the only pioneer in this whole discussion.    

 

Not surprising. I personally have found little value in neither. Not even Mew seems to consider these 'integral parts' in his new videos. He has begun putting more emphasis on posture and tongue chewing ( see his video from last fall ).

Yes, so is the case with tongue posturing and chewing gum, but that dose not mean they are irrelevant, it's just they are advanced topics. Most people are struggling with basic body posture and swallowing. I tired to allude to this in the "dr. mew backtracking" topic but most disagreed with me. Actually recently I started learning those techniques and re-watching all the videos about them and they do work in holding suction effortlessly, it's just that forward head posture always breaks the seal.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 22/01/2019 1:42 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator

Anything is of course possible. People risk their wellbeing in everything they choose to do regardless of whether their methods stand on current scientific understanding or their subjective conclusions.

Polyunsaturated fats were long hailed as the healthiest forms of fat, because research showed that they lowered cholesterol. Decades later, it is learned that they also cause a variety of illnesses from hormonal imbalances to cancer. Someone going by their intuition could have realized this long time ago: PUFA oils taste terrible, thus they can't be that good for the body.

The point I am making is that choosing to rely heavily on either objective knowledge or subjective intuition is always risky. It is good to try to maintain a healthy balance between the two. If intuition is unsupported by knowledge, or if knowledge is unsupported by intuition, there is often a cause for concern.

We are in agreement that we are being our own lab experiments. We both understand that we're walking on uncharted territory (I can only hope others understand this too). You prefer entering this territory through careful examination, taking a step forward only after you have confirmed that your previous step landed on solid ground. I prefer going forward and figuring things out in real time, being vigilant for the first signs of danger. Both approaches are fine in my eyes. They just have different kind of drives behind them.

This post was modified 4 months ago by Progress
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Posted : 22/01/2019 2:21 pm
Odys and Achilles1 liked
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Heck from what you guys write you already achieved this level where you are exerting high forces subconsciously. 

This may be bad news and something I didn't achieve (if it even is an achievement) in 2 years of hard mewing. Just speculating here but what "subconcious hard mewing" is to some posters here could be "involuntary muscle contraction" to a medical professional.

One possible cause of oromandibular dystonia for example is trauma, generally originating in the mouth.

Fine to speculate about supposed benefits for hard mewing advocates. But claims of harms are dismissed as "doing it wrong" then you have to do x, y and z to do it right, and as you mentioned these stipulations weren't made known previously. Changing the goal posts.

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Posted : 22/01/2019 2:25 pm
Progress
(@progress)
Member Moderator
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Heck from what you guys write you already achieved this level where you are exerting high forces subconsciously. 

This may be bad news and something I didn't achieve (if it even is an achievement) in 2 years of hard mewing. Just speculating here but what "subconcious hard mewing" is to some posters here could be "involuntary muscle contraction" to a medical professional.

One possible cause of oromandibular dystonia for example is trauma, generally originating in the mouth.

Fine to speculate about supposed benefits for hard mewing advocates. But claims of harms are dismissed as "doing it wrong" then you have to do x, y and z to do it right, and as you mentioned these stipulations weren't made known previously. Changing the goal posts.

To be clear, what do you view as the original goal post in this case?

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Posted : 22/01/2019 3:10 pm
Achilles1
(@achilles1)
Trusted Member

Sorry if I seem to confuse others, but I am new to this as well. To expound on Progress's stance, I likely possess neither the faculty nor the tact to articulate my opinions, experiences, or methodology in a way that will be meaningful to every person.  Regardless, it should be common sense that those who embellish and expand ideas must first grasp that idea's foundational functions.

In order to play a solo on guitar, you must first understand the underlying chords, scales, and modes, as well as how they are relating to one another in an overall musical phrase. Some people seemingly possess the innate ability to do this, while others must spend countless hours practicing. Perhaps these people who are "born with it" have competitive advantage, like greater finger dexterity or better synaptic connections between various parts of the brain. I liken this to my own personal competitive advantage over many. My starting IMW might be years away for others. My airway has never been blocked by the posterior third. I'm sure there are many things that others have to deal with that is completely unfathomable to me because I have never had to devote a single thought to it. 

It is true that over the months, I have not shared the totality of my journey. Perhaps I am similar to the gym meathead who says "all you gotta do is lift heavy bro". Of course lifting heavy grows muscles, but doing it with poor execution is liable to cause injuries. 

That being said, if an overweight person comes to me and says "I've been going to the gym for 6 months and haven't lost a pound! I guess it's just my genetics to be fat... Sure I always reward myself with an extra Big Mac afterwards, but that's just cuz I burn so many calories. I earned it!" Sorry to burst the proverbial bubble, but these people are delusional. Maybe a nicer way to put it is that they simply don't understand how to achieve their goals through a taper-fit, personalized strategy. I am very, very fortunate to have found my own individual strategy that fits my needs and no one else's. As the myopic creature I am, I can only spread information that I myself can see within a stone's throw.

Yes, people are "doing it wrong" but only according to my strategy. They will need to discover their own. 

This post was modified 4 months ago 2 times by Achilles1
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Posted : 22/01/2019 3:39 pm
Greensmoothies
(@greensmoothies)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: Greensmoothies
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Heck from what you guys write you already achieved this level where you are exerting high forces subconsciously. 

This may be bad news and something I didn't achieve (if it even is an achievement) in 2 years of hard mewing. Just speculating here but what "subconcious hard mewing" is to some posters here could be "involuntary muscle contraction" to a medical professional.

One possible cause of oromandibular dystonia for example is trauma, generally originating in the mouth.

Fine to speculate about supposed benefits for hard mewing advocates. But claims of harms are dismissed as "doing it wrong" then you have to do x, y and z to do it right, and as you mentioned these stipulations weren't made known previously. Changing the goal posts.

To be clear, what do you view as the original goal post in this case?

Changing/moving the goal posts is a metaphor or saying and in this context a reference to what Abdulrahman mentioned previously:

Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Progress

I'm not sure what you mean by ''advocates of hard mewing keep adding conditions to support' their case". Could you explain this a bit further? What conditions are you primarily referring to?

Every time someone points out a flaw or contradiction in the concept they resort to making new claims to cover their bases. For example when one points out that for some some people hard mewing had negative consequences they reply "well it worked for me, and by the way I started with bigger IMW, and I know what I am doing, and actually I was not pushing too hard, and you should know not to engage your facial muscles, etc".

Sure, but guys why didn't you point all of that out when you were declaring your method to be the correct one?   

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Posted : 22/01/2019 4:08 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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