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Does the ideal maxilla look like it is projecting from the face?

EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I feel like an ideal maxilla looks like it is coming out of the face a bit.

The opposite is true. If the maxilla is too "in" the face the midface collapses.

Plus this avoids the maxilla looking too short or long. 

Oh and contrary to common thought, chin projection has little to do with maxilla position. Recessed maxillae can be accompanied by strong chins many times. Usually more forward maxillary relations can even put the chin behind the upper lip. But chin strength is more about mandible shape and lip seal strength.

Agree? Disagree? 

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Topic starter Posted : 05/02/2020 2:16 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

I thought this was a widely agreed upon assumption. Have you seen others propose that an ideal maxilla wouldn't project? Cheekbones would add to part of the projection, and they wouldn't protrude if the maxilla was backward.

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Posted : 05/02/2020 4:22 am
max iller
Eminent Member

Yes forward maxillae is of paramount importance to facial esthetic imo, I think the front teeth should be at minimum in line with the soft tissue of the nasion, ideally projected forward further.

Misdeveloped maxilla contributes to lack of undereye support, nose turning down and hooking when smiling in some nose types, and underdefined contour of the face. As the soft tissue is slack from not being pulled perfectly tight by the correct forward development it was designed for, or the facial fat rests in the incorrect position relative to the bones.

Not to mention breathing, snoring and forward head posture compensation as the tongue needs to sit further back in the throat.

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Posted : 05/02/2020 4:44 am
Slinky
Trusted Member

Bryce Howard's perfect maxilla doesn't project that much:

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Posted : 05/02/2020 6:28 am
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

tbh, how does one know if they have a strong lip seal?

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Posted : 05/02/2020 9:30 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @slinky

Bryce Howard's perfect maxilla doesn't project that much:

This is exactly what I mean. It absolutely does. Look how much in front of her nasion the upper lip is.

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Topic starter Posted : 05/02/2020 11:15 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

I thought this was a widely agreed upon assumption. Have you seen others propose that an ideal maxilla wouldn't project? Cheekbones would add to part of the projection, and they wouldn't protrude if the maxilla was backward.

I thought it was, too. But in the thread about the tenporalis muscle usage vs masseter usage, an idea was proposed that an ideal maxilla doesn't project much at all, it just has short vertical height. 

This maxilla above has short vertical height but it has no projection whatsoever. Even if the Mew line is short due to the maxilla not growing downward, the lips would be not as well supported and the face would look too compact from the front IMO.

I think that projection decreases vertical height enough, it just may not create the shortest possible face. Meaning since the maxilla grows downward, adding forward projection will balance it out. Plus the projection will keep the bite more open, making the lower third height a bit longer. 

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Topic starter Posted : 05/02/2020 11:25 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @oatmeal

tbh, how does one know if they have a strong lip seal?

Usually your teeth will tell. Teeth too angled forward means your lip seal is weak. If you have a decent chin projection it means that your lip seal is stronger. 

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Topic starter Posted : 05/02/2020 11:29 am
Oatmeal and Elwynn liked
gewgerg
Active Member

yes slight protrusion definitely looks the best

 

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Posted : 06/02/2020 3:05 pm
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

@eddiemoney

Agreed. I also suppose gonial angle has not much to really do with chin projection at this point.. My chin projection isn't great but I manage to feel slight pressure around my teeth from my lips, so I know I'm catching up 🙂

 

Honestly I feel it more has to do with occlusion, mandible shape, and lip seal. In particular to lip seal I remember my front lip used to be completely flat, but now it curves slightly forward. I wonder if that has to do with anything idk. My thesis is that I don't think gonial angle or maxilla position have an effect on it.

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Posted : 07/02/2020 11:42 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Gonial angle and chin projection are two things I consider irrelevant for facial aesthetics. They don't determine your facial harmony in any way. The only people complaining about facial aesthetics due to lack of chin development are people whose faces are either too long or those who don't know how to close their lips. If your face is too long, a bigger chin will not affect that. Likewise, people with weak lip seal can fix a bad chin by just closing their mouth properly.

Gonial angle likewise is irrelevant for facial aesthetics just like the chin. Because like having a small chin, having a high gonial angle doesn't really affect your harmony between features. Having a 90° gonial angle is cool from profile but as long as your features look harmonious you can have a high gonial angle and even a small chin and still be good looking. Look at Michael B Jordan. Guy has near negative chin projection but from the front his features are harmonious. 

Proper spacing = facial harmony = good looking. Robust bones not needed. I mean you can have robust bones but they don't guarantee you will be good looking. I have seen it on lots of mewers. Meanwhile the guy above has 0 brow, looks like a mild Class 2 Div 1, small cheekbones, weak nose bridge, a small lower third, basically all or most of his features are highly neotenous and it still works. 

 

 

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Topic starter Posted : 07/02/2020 1:25 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

Gonial angle and chin projection are two things I consider irrelevant for facial aesthetics. They don't determine your facial harmony in any way. The only people complaining about facial aesthetics due to lack of chin development are people whose faces are either too long or those who don't know how to close their lips. If your face is too long, a bigger chin will not affect that. Likewise, people with weak lip seal can fix a bad chin by just closing their mouth properly.

I agree to an extent with your belief about the gonial angle, but I disagree with what you've said about chin projection. My bottom incisors procline quite significantly, causing my lower lip to protrude, in turn giving my chin a receded look. Correcting my lip seal mitigated this problem slightly, but it did not solve it, and my receding chin continues being the main factor which makes my face look underdeveloped and childish. As a child, I would often get teased about it by my peers, and now, despite being 24, I am frequently mistaken for a teenager. When I stretch back the skin on my chin and suck in my lower lip a little to imitate how I would look without my lower incisors protruding, I instantly look much more mature. Sure, CFD affects my entire face, but lack of chin projection is probably the single most influential factor in my case.

Michael B. Jordan may look reasonably handsome despite his lack of chin projection, but I think that he's an exception, not the rule. His race / phenotype may also be a factor in how his CFD affects his appearance.

24 years old

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Posted : 10/02/2020 12:46 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@eddiemoney

Gonial angle and chin projection are two things I consider irrelevant for facial aesthetics. They don't determine your facial harmony in any way. The only people complaining about facial aesthetics due to lack of chin development are people whose faces are either too long or those who don't know how to close their lips. If your face is too long, a bigger chin will not affect that. Likewise, people with weak lip seal can fix a bad chin by just closing their mouth properly.

I agree to an extent with your belief about the gonial angle, but I disagree with what you've said about chin projection. My bottom incisors procline quite significantly, causing my lower lip to protrude, in turn giving my chin a receded look. Correcting my lip seal mitigated this problem slightly, but it did not solve it, and my receding chin continues being the main factor which makes my face look underdeveloped and childish. As a child, I would often get teased about it by my peers, and now, despite being 24, I am frequently mistaken for a teenager. When I stretch back the skin on my chin and suck in my lower lip a little to imitate how I would look without my lower incisors protruding, I instantly look much more mature. Sure, CFD affects my entire face, but lack of chin projection is probably the single most influential factor in my case.

Michael B. Jordan may look reasonably handsome despite his lack of chin projection, but I think that he's an exception, not the rule. His race / phenotype may also be a factor in how his CFD affects his appearance.

I don't know, I doubt it's just your chin. I bet your whole facial harmony is thrown off. But seldom does how prominent a bone is affect harmony. Lots of good looking men have small chins. And looking youthful isn't a bad thing, either. Leonardo DiCaprio and Brad Pitt have historically had youthful faces and it didn't hold them back. So I really think your entire facial harmony must be affected and the problem may not be due to just how big your chin is. 

Is your face long or short?

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Topic starter Posted : 10/02/2020 1:14 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

Of course it's not just my chin. My CFD affects my entire face, but my point was that the problems seem to converge most prominently around my chin.

The issue is not that I have a chin that is short in height or otherwise small (in terms of height, my chin is alright); the issue is that my chin point (or lack thereof) has retreated backwards, leaving my lower lip to stick out. Although this picture is of a girl and I'm a guy, my case looks a bit like this:

When you analyze her CFD, what defect sticks out to you the most? Her chin, right? That's the situation with my face.

The reason it's like this is because my bottom incisors flare out forwards. This is the result of my childhood orthodontist's failed attempt at correcting my overbite. Before I underwent "treatment", I had an overbite (as I still do), but my incisors were not proclined - that only happened over the course of wearing braces with springs.

I visited a functional orthodontist some time ago and he informed me that the primary thing keeping my bottom teeth proclined is lack of space (since they have no room to expand width-wise, they flare out forward). He also said that if I were to expand my upper palate, my mandibular arch would expand with it, in turn giving my lower teeth more room to retrocline. This would eventually increase chin projection.

Is your face long or short?

Previously I answered that it's short, but to be honest, I'm not sure. I used to have Class II as a child, but now that problem has been obfuscated (read: "not fixed) by my former orthodontist shifting my teeth around. My mandible is still too far back, and when I jut it forward to where it should be, my teeth are lined up edge to edge. My ramus height is decent, but as I said, I have a retruded chin. My nose has a dorsal bump, and my mid face seems too long in comparison to my lower third. I guess this sounds like the long-face pattern caused by a down-grown maxilla so far, but what confuses me is that when I look at my face from the front, it looks nearly round, not long at all. Perhaps this is because I have chubby cheeks and a lot of loose skin, despite being borderline underweight.

24 years old

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Posted : 10/02/2020 5:55 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @elwynn

@eddiemoney

Of course it's not just my chin. My CFD affects my entire face, but my point was that the problems seem to converge most prominently around my chin.

The issue is not that I have a chin that is short in height or otherwise small (in terms of height, my chin is alright); the issue is that my chin point (or lack thereof) has retreated backwards, leaving my lower lip to stick out. Although this picture is of a girl and I'm a guy, my case looks a bit like this:

When you analyze her CFD, what defect sticks out to you the most? Her chin, right? That's the situation with my face.

The reason it's like this is because my bottom incisors flare out forwards. This is the result of my childhood orthodontist's failed attempt at correcting my overbite. Before I underwent "treatment", I had an overbite (as I still do), but my incisors were not proclined - that only happened over the course of wearing braces with springs.

I visited a functional orthodontist some time ago and he informed me that the primary thing keeping my bottom teeth proclined is lack of space (since they have no room to expand width-wise, they flare out forward). He also said that if I were to expand my upper palate, my mandibular arch would expand with it, in turn giving my lower teeth more room to retrocline. This would eventually increase chin projection.

Is your face long or short?

Previously I answered that it's short, but to be honest, I'm not sure. I used to have Class II as a child, but now that problem has been obfuscated (read: "not fixed) by my former orthodontist shifting my teeth around. My mandible is still too far back, and when I jut it forward to where it should be, my teeth are lined up edge to edge. My ramus height is decent, but as I said, I have a retruded chin. My nose has a dorsal bump, and my mid face seems too long in comparison to my lower third. I guess this sounds like the long-face pattern caused by a down-grown maxilla so far, but what confuses me is that when I look at my face from the front, it looks nearly round, not long at all. Perhaps this is because I have chubby cheeks and a lot of loose skin, despite being borderline underweight.

Ok I get it. Seems like the issue isn't the bony prominence itself but the awkward way your face was treated. My ortho did a number on me, too. Didn't really fix my underbite structure, just took two premolars from my mandible to make it sit further back in the occlusion. So I ended up with a deep bite that was also a Class 3 alignment (lower molars ahead of upper ones). So my midface wasn't fixed, and I ended up with my entire profile being weak. At one point my upper lip almost disappeared when I tried to lip seal.

Orthodontics creates such weird face structures and it's sad we had to be on the receiving end. At least with a former class 2 structure your maxillary height may still be decent, which is why your face may look round despite having a longer midface. Have you measured your mew line?

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Topic starter Posted : 10/02/2020 6:18 pm
Elwynn liked
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney

You know, I've actually forgotten to keep track of my mew indicator line (I guess I could start now, though). Based on a quick measurement, it seems to be around 44mm. However, since my upper teeth are also proclined, the actual distance may be a little more. In any case, looking at myself in the mirror, it doesn't appear to me that my maxillary height is overly long or overly short. While there may be room for improvement, it seems pretty average. The main problem is, as I've said, my lower third.

On a side note, while measuring I was reminded of how strange my nose is. From a perfect profile, it appears mostly straight, with only a small dorsal bump. However, from a 3/4 view, the bump is very prominent. It seems mainly caused by the fact that the dorsum is quite wide, in comparison to the bridge, which is more narrow and lacks prominence. I'm wondering if this is just a function of genetics or of CFD. I can't compare with my father's nose, because he shattered it during childhood and it is missing the original bone.

24 years old

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Posted : 11/02/2020 12:09 am
Authority
Active Member

So guys, do you think sucking your lips inwards in order to retrocline your teeth will create more prominance of your bone structure? Or how does it exactly work?

If it was so easy we would just have to apply inwards pressure with our lips in order to retrocline them huh?

However I have also seen people with very retroclined maxillary arch and cero facial strucure, (maybe due to bad orthodontic treatment),

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Posted : 11/02/2020 4:35 am
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

@eddiemoney

Alright, well looking at myself I think I have a long face. Long midface with recessed cheekbones mostly. I do think that projection would help significantly in the cheekbones, but even then I think they more or less indicate where my maxilla is at right now. My gonial angle lowering to around 120-117 degrees and chin coming a little forward has not really helped this.

 

So I agree, I don't only think gonial angle and chin are unimportant, but I'm really doubting whether it actually helps with function at all either. Despite it lowering and getting more squareish I haven't really seemed to have any fwhr change at all. Also, when I look my face from the front it doesn't look THAT  much squarer. so overall my take is that gonial angle dont matter lol.

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Posted : 11/02/2020 11:17 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @authority

So guys, do you think sucking your lips inwards in order to retrocline your teeth will create more prominance of your bone structure? Or how does it exactly work?

If it was so easy we would just have to apply inwards pressure with our lips in order to retrocline them huh?

However I have also seen people with very retroclined maxillary arch and cero facial strucure, (maybe due to bad orthodontic treatment),

I don't believe that teeth make bones prominent. I believe having good resting facial muscle tone helps keep teeth aligned. But how prominent your bones appear CAN be affected in your chin if your teeth are too forward. If they are too forward your lower lip has to stretch to meet the upper and this engages the mentalis too much, making the pogonion look much less pronounced. So while it doesn't make the actual chin any smaller, closing the mouth makes it look hidden. 

Upper teeth don't affect chin prominence unless they are excessively out and the lip skin on the bottom has to stretch as a result. If your upper teeth tip just slightly forward and your lower too backward, the mandible slides forward and the profile becomes stronger. Likewise if the upper teeth are retruding and the lower teeth protruding, it is probably the worst combo since it may create both an underbite and a weak chin profile.

General rules: 

  • Mild overjet on top and bottom makes a normal profile
  • Mild overjet on top, excessive overjet on bottom makes lips too puffy and chin weak
  • Excessive overjet on top (and any combo on bottom) makes lips puffy and chin weak
  • Mild overjet with retroclined incisors creates a strong chin and strong upper lip
  • Retroclined upper teeth and lower ones makes a strong chin but retruded upper lip (your face sinks in)
  • Retroclined upper, proclined lower makes it hard to close the mouth and gives you an underbite
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Topic starter Posted : 11/02/2020 1:05 pm