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Does mewing develop mandible?  

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Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member

Hi, first post.  If one has underdeveloped maxilla and mandible, would mewing potentially only develop the maxilla, since it's about applying tongue pressure to the roof of the mouth?  Or does the mandible tend to naturally expand when no longer entrapped by the maxilla?

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Posted : 29/11/2018 5:26 pm
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member
Posted by: ben

Under ideal circumstances, the mandible would expand and develop to accommodate the widening of the maxilla—occlusion must be maintained. 

But wouldn't there need to be some direct action on the mandible to make this happen... whether from the tongue or an appliance?

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Posted : 29/11/2018 6:01 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Buggy

But wouldn't there need to be some direct action on the mandible to make this happen... whether from the tongue or an appliance?

If you're asking about forward/sagittal expansion, the TMJ allows enough flexibility for the mandible to swing up and forward to meet the new position of the maxilla (you can jut your jaw forward to get a sense of this adjustment). If you're asking about transverse expansion of the mandible to match expansion of the maxilla, it seems that some limited degree of basal bone remodeling is possible, but most correction of mandibular arch width occurs through uprighting of lingually tipped teeth. For example, my mandibular arch started out wider then maxillary arch, but my lower molars tilted in to prevent cross bite. I think I've seen some uprighting of these lower teeth since my palate expansion. Chewing is supposed to help encourage the mandibular teeth to reestablish occlusion with the new position of the maxillary teeth. There are also mandibular expanders available, but you have to advance slower since there is no suture to separate, which tends to result in more dental than skeletal changes. You might find this thread useful:  https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/how-to-encourage-the-mandibular-arch-to-keep-up-with-expansion-of-the-maxillary-arch/#

This post was modified 6 months ago 2 times by Apollo
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Posted : 29/11/2018 7:16 pm
Buggy liked
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member

ben, Thanks for the info.  I read the Jamo thread.  Nothing about the mandible specifically but lot of of great info nonetheless.  The Occlivion thing looks interesting, will read later tonite.  I really like that kind of connect-the-dots stuff, the kind of stuff that links up all the shite that modern medicine has blown up into a million specialties and sub-specialties.

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Posted : 29/11/2018 7:21 pm
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member

Apollo:  Thanks, I did not consider that the mandible could just swing upward to align with an expanded maxilla, in terms of forward expansion.  I thought that lower arch lateral expansion with appliances like DNA and ALF was common and an effective way to widen the mandible.  

I guess main thing I'm wondering is whether mewing leaves the mandible behind, in terms of expansion in any dimension.  Or, because tongue pressure into the upper palate is the natural order of things, do we assume thiings tend to work out over time?

I read some of that thread, yikes makes my head spin, lot of think about.

 

This post was modified 6 months ago 4 times by Buggy
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Posted : 29/11/2018 8:09 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Buggy

I thought that lower arch lateral expansion with appliances like DNA and ALF was common and an effective way to widen the mandible.  

Such appliances certainly exist, but my understanding is that how far they can expand is more limited than maxillary appliances. You could read about Ronny Ead's bad experience with upper and lower removable expanders in this thread (  https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/cautionary-palate-expander-case/# ) or on his blog (  https://ronaldead.com/blog/2018/2/3/failed-attempt-at-adult-palatal-expansion ). His description in some of his videos and other blog posts of shifting his mandible forward after he switched to AGGA expansion might also interest you.

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Posted : 29/11/2018 8:30 pm
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member
Posted by: Apollo
Such appliances certainly exist, but my understanding is that how far they can expand is more limited than maxillary appliances. 

So is the consensus (if there is a consensus) of this group that Mewing, and associated postural corrections, should be considered the central method for correcting facial dystrophy?  Even in older adults?

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Posted : 29/11/2018 9:24 pm
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member
Posted by: ben
I find it entirely fascinating how many modern ailments (and personality characteristics) are allegedly linked to a suboptimal craniofacial complex. Almost seems as if the structure of one's face determines their ultimate "destiny".

I have had same realization over past couple years, starting after reading the Weston Price book.  Intellect, athletic performance, mental health, physical health, social status... can sorta predict it all to some degree by looking at facial form.  Kinda kills many of the superficial cultural memes about success coming from hard work or determination.  Certainly a factor but the playing field is not level.  And it ain't genetics like 99% of the herd thinks, having been brainwashed from day one by the cult of mainstream medicine.

This post was modified 6 months ago by Buggy
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Posted : 29/11/2018 9:31 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Buggy

So is the consensus (if there is a consensus) of this group that Mewing, and associated postural corrections, should be considered the central method for correcting facial dystrophy?  Even in older adults?

It's definitely fundamental to work on achieving good oral posture, but I think most people would agree that appliances can sometimes be helpful, especially in cases where the palate is prohibitively narrow. I used a palate expander myself because I was starting at an intermolar width of around 34mm with insufficient tongue space. In adults, changes from oral posture alone are likely to be modest and slow, but it is certainly worth practicing good habits even if only to prevent further deterioration. Whether a mandibular appliance would help align occlusion with your expanding maxilla depends on the individual case.

This post was modified 6 months ago by Apollo
ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/11/2018 9:55 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member

Beyond the age of 12 lateral expansion in the mandible takes place in the alveolar ridge only. That's the bony ridge that sits on top of the mandible bone and contains the teeth but does not extend beyond the teeth roots.

Versus the main body of the mandible, it's malleable bone reacts easily to pressure. If the lower teeth are pushed outward it will respond by depositing new bone on the outside to accommodate the wider teeth position.

The main body of the mandible will not change however. That's why in practice the alveolar ridge is limited in it's ability to expand. Muscle position is determined by the body of the mandible. As the alveolar ridge widens the teeth will experience increased pressure from the muscles.

It's very common for teeth to move back after treatment because of this. Expanding the upper palate and doing mewing can help reduce this but there are limits. Dr. Mike Mew considers the mandible the limiting factor in treating most adult case and so do all the orthodontists I talked to. 

For a lack of a suture, there is just no known way to stimulate the main body of the mandible to expand naturally like the maxilla. The only way around this is to surgically expand it, which is not always successful. Given the challenge of moving the teeth to close the opened gap the process can cause narrowing, which defeats the purpose.  

Edit: I incorrectly stated that the lower jaw stops growing at 12. That's actually the upper jaw. The lower jaw continues until 14 and then slows down considerably until it stops around 18-20 years old.  

This post was modified 6 months ago by Abdulrahman
This post was modified 3 months ago 2 times by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/11/2018 10:40 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member

Any cases of where the maxilla was expanded far beyond the mandible?

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Posted : 29/11/2018 11:21 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Any cases of where the maxilla was expanded far beyond the mandible?

In my research I never came across such a case, but in my case I had to stop the upper arch expansion at 39mm because the difference with the lower was becoming too much. Only after 2 months and installing a lingual wire in addition to the braces did my lower arch match the upper. The doctor decided to stop all expansion afterwards in fear of molar tipping.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/11/2018 11:35 pm
Apollo
(@apollo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Any cases of where the maxilla was expanded far beyond the mandible?

Even in that thread I linked above, there's a subtle expansion case where the mesial edge of the upper canines are noticeably apart from the distal edge of the lower canines. Mine was even more obvious after my palate expansion, but seems to be a little better after 3+ months using a myobrace. Expanding the lower intercanine width seems to be the limiting variable overall.

This post was modified 6 months ago by Apollo
ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/11/2018 11:42 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Apollo
Posted by: EddieMoney

Any cases of where the maxilla was expanded far beyond the mandible?

Even in that thread I linked above, there's a subtle expansion case where the mesial edge of the upper canines are noticeably apart from the distal edge of the lower canines. Mine was even more obvious after my palate expansion, but seems to be a little better after 3+ months using a myobrace. Expanding the lower intercanine width seems to be the limiting variable overall.

Interesting looking bite. Aesthetic for certain but does it affect functionality like when you chew?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/11/2018 9:29 am
Apollo
(@apollo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: EddieMoney

Interesting looking bite. Aesthetic for certain but does it affect functionality like when you chew?

I guess having this gap between the mesial edge of the upper canines and the distal edge of the lower canines creates more play in the mandible where you can shift it left or right of the midline and still close your jaws. This hasn't really been an issue for me, but you would want to avoid habitually biting left or right of center. The myobrace (which I got hoping it would help improve the symmetry of my upper and lower arches) has shifted my lower canines a little closer to meeting with the upper canines, and eliminated the minor crowding of my lower incisors, but it has given me some issues with my front teeth unexpectedly making contact when I chew (especially the left lateral incisors), which I think is from advancing my mandible slightly forward. So I have to be mindful, especially when I first start to chew each day. I've found chewing some gum in the morning helps reestablish my occlusion.

This post was modified 6 months ago by Apollo
ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/11/2018 3:26 pm
Buggy
(@buggy)
Eminent Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

For a lack of a suture, there is just no known way to stimulate the main body of the mandible to expand naturally like the maxilla. 

I'm halfway thru the book "Six Foot Tiger, Three Foot Cage" by Felix Liao, and he seems to be suggesting that double arch appliances stimulate stem cells in the tooth sockets (and maybe jaw bone) of both arches, and this leads to new bone growth.  

If the mandible cannot be expanded laterally, then would seem all two arch appliances would be something of a disaster, or would lead to at best temporary improvement, per the points you made about lack of suture, etc.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/11/2018 4:59 pm
MagnumOpus
(@magnumopus)
Active Member

Apollo and abdulrahman, have you guys tried expanding the mandible?

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/double-plates/6/double-feed-plates

At this link, the upper expander looks like the "active plate" so maybe this would work for both maxilla and mandible. Even if teeth tip in the mandible, maybe a couple MM of skeletal expansion is possible? This would then allow the maxilla to expand more without losing occlusion, since the lower intercanine width is normally the limiting factor as was mentioned above.

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Posted : 07/02/2019 12:43 am
sinned
(@sinned)
Trusted Member

@abdulrahman People with acromegaly get spaces in between their lower teeth because of how much their mandibles grow. I'm not saying we should induce acromegaly or inject exogenous substances into our body, however this seems to suggest that a wider arch requires a larger mandible. Whether you can induce that from just expanding the upper arch and subsequently waiting for the lower arch to follow is debatable and in my opinion seems a little lackluster. What I think and always thought was that maybe you need a larger mandible for a wider arch which would be achieved through chewing. Basically what I'm suggesting is that you need to build up the muscles and mandible and mewing will subsequently become easier as the lower arch I think will be more easily expandable. Another interesting thing is if you search up bruxism teeth, people who have overactive jaw muscles and worn down teeth, they seems they have relatively straight teeth and a lower arch that is decently wide. I'm not sure if it's just the search engine giving better looking results, but it's one thing to consider. 

This fellow here seems to actually have a lower arch slightly wider than his upper, which is uncommon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acromegaly

I'll probably post this in the main forum.

This post was modified 3 months ago by sinned
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Posted : 13/02/2019 12:08 am
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Buggy

I'm halfway thru the book "Six Foot Tiger, Three Foot Cage" by Felix Liao, and he seems to be suggesting that double arch appliances stimulate stem cells in the tooth sockets (and maybe jaw bone) of both arches, and this leads to new bone growth.  

If the mandible cannot be expanded laterally, then would seem all two arch appliances would be something of a disaster, or would lead to at best temporary improvement, per the points you made about lack of suture, etc.

Yes that's remolding taking place in the alveolar ridge. It's limited because unlike the skeletal bone it's just growth on the bone that houses the teeth sockets. This does not change the main body of the jaw which the alveolar bone sits on top of in the lower jaw and on the bottom of on the upper jaw.

There is a limit to this movement because as the teeth and alveolar bones shift laterally outward they start pushing into the facial muscles. Once they reach a cretin point they can't go anymore.

When the skeletal part of the jaw on the other hand moves laterally via surgery or some sort of treatment the muscle insertions move along with it. Even this movement has it's limitations.

I wish doctors were more clear on the difference between the alveolar ridge and the main body of the jaws. They would have reduced so much confusion. 

 

Posted by: MagnumOpus

Apollo and abdulrahman, have you guys tried expanding the mandible?

As mentioned in the previous post I had both a self ligating buccal and a lingual wires to expand the lower arch, but there are limits to how much the alveolar ridge can respond.

 

Posted by: sinned

What I think and always thought was that maybe you need a larger mandible for a wider arch which would be achieved through chewing. Basically what I'm suggesting is that you need to build up the muscles and mandible and mewing will subsequently become easier as the lower arch I think will be more easily expandable. Another interesting thing is if you search up bruxism teeth, people who have overactive jaw muscles and worn down teeth, they seems they have relatively straight teeth and a lower arch that is decently wide. I'm not sure if it's just the search engine giving better looking results, but it's one thing to consider. 

So long there is still growth, the jaws will respond to muscle stimulation. Once growth stops we are only left with changes in the alveolar ridge.

By the way I incorrectly stated in a previous post that the lower jaw stops growing at 12. That's actually the upper jaw. The lower jaw continues until 14 and then slows down considerably until it stops around 18-20 years old. 

 

 

 

This post was modified 3 months ago 2 times by Abdulrahman

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 13/02/2019 1:32 am
MagnumOpus
(@magnumopus)
Active Member

@abdulrahman, sorry, I didn't see that you had tried to expand the mandible before. I understand what you mean now, that only the alveolar ridge can change after a point, so that puts a limit on lower jaw expansion.

Still, did you get any expansion in lower intercanine distance, even a few millimeters? Or was it only expansion behind the canines (at the molars)? I am considering buying a lower expander from bracesshop, since I want to increase the limiting factor of my transverse expansion (I have visible crowding of my lower teeth).

This post was modified 3 months ago 2 times by MagnumOpus
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Posted : 26/02/2019 7:13 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: MagnumOpus

@abdulrahman, sorry, I didn't see that you had tried to expand the mandible before. I understand what you mean now, that only the alveolar ridge can change after a point, so that puts a limit on lower jaw expansion.

Still, did you get any expansion in lower intercanine distance, even a few millimeters? Or was it only expansion behind the canines (at the molars)? I am considering buying a lower expander from bracesshop, since I want to increase the limiting factor of my transverse expansion (I have visible crowding of my lower teeth).

Yes I got expansion in the lower inter-canine distance by about 2mm and about 4mm in the inter-molar distance. Both figures are slightly below the expansion I achieved in the upper which is open for more expansion but the lower was the limiting factor. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 27/02/2019 10:57 pm
MagnumOpus
(@magnumopus)
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Yes I got expansion in the lower inter-canine distance by about 2mm and about 4mm in the inter-molar distance. Both figures are slightly below the expansion I achieved in the upper which is open for more expansion but the lower was the limiting factor. 

Oh that's awesome, congrats on that! I wasn't previously familiar with self-ligating wires but I have a basic understanding now. Over what time span was that expansion that you got? One poster on here in a different thread recommended a lower ALF for mandible expansion, which I believe would work but it would probably take 1-2 years for a few mm of intercanine width i'm guessing.

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Posted : 27/02/2019 11:19 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: MagnumOpus

Oh that's awesome, congrats on that! I wasn't previously familiar with self-ligating wires but I have a basic understanding now. Over what time span was that expansion that you got? One poster on here in a different thread recommended a lower ALF for mandible expansion, which I believe would work but it would probably take 1-2 years for a few mm of intercanine width i'm guessing.

1 year. Alf is great and works in a very similar fashion to braces. You want to take your time with expansion, that's what promotes alveolar remodeling versus teeth tipping.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 27/02/2019 11:24 pm
MagnumOpus
(@magnumopus)
Active Member
 

Posted by: Abdulrahman

1 year. Alf is great and works in a very similar fashion to braces. You want to take your time with expansion, that's what promotes alveolar remodeling versus teeth tipping.

Hello @abdulrahman,

Thanks for your responses on this issue. If you were only referring to the lower jaw when you say slower is better to avoid tooth tipping, feel free to ignore the next paragraph.

This is an interesting contradiction I have encountered. On 1 hand, ALF supporters say going slow will help gain alveolar/skeletal remodeling  while going too fast will cause teeth tipping. But on the other hand, we have examples of people on this site, who expand with a removable palatal expander. Going along with that, here is a video of Mew saying a couple things (Starting from 0:55)  including that a slow rate leads to dental movement while a fairly fast rate leads to skeletal movement, which is preferred. His case study in the video also shows a 4 month expansion that he said he did at roughly 1mm a week, and in the video it looks like a significant increase in IMW. I have seen this contradiction a couple times and not sure what to make of it.

On the other hand maybe I am totally misinterpreting you... sorry if I did.  Were you only saying that the LOWER jaw is the one where "you want to take your time with expansion, that's what promotes alveolar remodeling versus teeth tipping". If so, that makes sense, but it is still interesting that the upper jaw can be expanded in multiple ways / at multiple rates (Either slow ALF or quicker removable palatal expander) . Whereas the lower jaw is tougher to expand and should only be done slowly. But this would also make sense. Reading your comment again I feel dumb because you were probably referring to only the lower jaw that should be expanded slowly, lol. Sorry if I did read it wrong.

This post was modified 3 months ago by MagnumOpus
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Posted : 28/02/2019 2:24 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member

In order to understand Mewing, it must be broken down into its parts.  If you have a decent overjet (greater than about 4mm)... then you can likely bridge the gap, assuming no cross-bites by looking at post on this previously.  Search “tween” or class 2 naturally.  The teeth together doesn’t do crap compared to chewing your normal food with teeth out of class 2 (assuming it has that range of motion & is comfortable).  Takes years.

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Posted : 28/02/2019 4:01 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: MagnumOpus

Oh that's awesome, congrats on that! I wasn't previously familiar with self-ligating wires but I have a basic understanding now. Over what time span was that expansion that you got? One poster on here in a different thread recommended a lower ALF for mandible expansion, which I believe would work but it would probably take 1-2 years for a few mm of intercanine width i'm guessing.

1 year. Alf is great and works in a very similar fashion to braces. You want to take your time with expansion, that's what promotes alveolar remodeling versus teeth tipping.

Slow truely is best.  The need for speed is not good for the aesthetics (except surgery) or RPE carefully designed.  I think all the rush for 6-month treatments is a problem.  Everyone is pitching quick products to orthodontists.  Chair time is valuable.  The markup is high on these short/quick products.  The ortho makes more on the quick stuff... braces/alf are an art... slow... surely... time to intervene with concerns.  You get what you pay for.

This post was modified 3 months ago 6 times by darkindigo
ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2019 4:05 pm
Abdulrahman
(@abdulrahman)
Reputable Member
Posted by: MagnumOpus

Hello @abdulrahman,

Thanks for your responses on this issue. If you were only referring to the lower jaw when you say slower is better to avoid tooth tipping, feel free to ignore the next paragraph.

This is an interesting contradiction I have encountered. On 1 hand, ALF supporters say going slow will help gain alveolar/skeletal remodeling  while going too fast will cause teeth tipping. But on the other hand, we have examples of people on this site, who expand with a removable palatal expander. Going along with that, here is a video of Mew saying a couple things (Starting from 0:55)  including that a slow rate leads to dental movement while a fairly fast rate leads to skeletal movement, which is preferred. His case study in the video also shows a 4 month expansion that he said he did at roughly 1mm a week, and in the video it looks like a significant increase in IMW. I have seen this contradiction a couple times and not sure what to make of it.

On the other hand maybe I am totally misinterpreting you... sorry if I did.  Were you only saying that the LOWER jaw is the one where "you want to take your time with expansion, that's what promotes alveolar remodeling versus teeth tipping". If so, that makes sense, but it is still interesting that the upper jaw can be expanded in multiple ways / at multiple rates (Either slow ALF or quicker removable palatal expander) . Whereas the lower jaw is tougher to expand and should only be done slowly. But this would also make sense. Reading your comment again I feel dumb because you were probably referring to only the lower jaw that should be expanded slowly, lol. Sorry if I did read it wrong.

Hello,

It's important not to confuse different things.

In addition to having a alveolar ridge the upper jaw has a suture that can be cracked open on some patient and mechanically expanded. That's skeletal expansion and you will hear many different rates of expansion to achieve this type of treatment.

The lower jaw on the other hand has no sutures so you are left with slow rate alveolar ridge remodeling or fast rate dental movement (tipping or moving through the bone).

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/02/2019 11:08 pm
MagnumOpus
(@magnumopus)
Active Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Hello,

It's important not to confuse different things.

In addition to having a alveolar ridge the upper jaw has a suture that can be cracked open on some patient and mechanically expanded. That's skeletal expansion and you will hear many different rates of expansion to achieve this type of treatment.

The lower jaw on the other hand has no sutures so you are left with slow rate alveolar ridge remodeling or fast rate dental movement (tipping or moving through the bone).

Thanks for the clarification. This is what I had thought you were saying, just wanted to make sure. I will attempt slow expansion on my lower jaw.

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Posted : 11/03/2019 1:40 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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