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Does masseter hypertrophy only add horizontal width to the jaw or it also gives an illusion of lower gonial angle?  

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mewerchewer
Active Member

I'm not talking about long-term bone remodeling but rather about immediate effect of the growing ball of muscle.

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Posted : 29/10/2019 9:25 pm
Fred
 Fred
Estimable Member

 The masseter muscle can give a 3d look. It can increase in size horrizantly and it can pronounce the curver at the angle of the jaw. Imagime the jaw of a horse. That type of thing.

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Posted : 29/10/2019 10:13 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Just lose bodyfat and eat harder foods. But don't spend your time chewing too much as it will give you a pronounced overbite. Your masseters will look huge and your face will be square but it will be vertically short and your lower third height will decrease. Not good for a guy. You just become a weird looking person with a big jaw but not actually good looking. 

See here. There isn't a balance being struck here. The jaw is too square and as a result the bite forces really push the maxilla too deep into the skull. It rotates the mandible counterclockwise but the result is a face that is too compact. 

Midface ratios (among other things) matter more for example than how square your jaw is. Most people with "square jaws" just have good oral posture but don't have blown out masseters. Square jaws aren't even really a Hollywood / fashion industry thing but a) either bruxism thing or. B)aspirational gum chewers. 90° gonial angles are not very common in humans and produce overly brachyfacial profiles with pronounced overbites and just too much bony protrusion with weak soft tissue prominence. You need a balance. Don't become horsefaced on the other spectrum but also don't just look like a walking jawline. 

Too much bony protrusion. Soft tissue is weak. Nasolabial angle too obtuse. Her Mew line is probably low 40s high 30s. Her face is very short. Yes she has a jaw of steel. But if her face lengthened a bit and her jawline weakened (mandible clockwise rotation) she would see better facial ratios and soft tissue prominence. Her maxilla looks very clockwise rotated while her mandible looks very counterclockwise rotated. If she engaged her posterior third more she may be able to pull her maxilla down a bit and clockwise rotate her mandible, which would soften the chin and make the lips pout more. She probably would be a serious Class 2 Div 2 judging by her lack of overjet but serious shortening of the vertical maxilla. 

Masseter development is overrated. 

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Posted : 29/10/2019 11:57 pm
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member

@eddiemoney

The main cause of CFD and the gross change in facial form in recent years is due to the extreme decrease in masticatory effort associated with the modern diet. It just seems counterintuitive that we shouldn't be chewing basically as much as we can. Even if we chew for many hours a day its still gonna be far off from matching the muscle usage of the people from for instance the paleolithic era. 

It also seems that cases like the one you discuss above is a result of an imbalance between the chewing effect and the tongue effect, rather than an issue caused by too strong masseter muscles alone. Our masseter muscles used to be way stronger and bigger than what is typical today.

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Posted : 30/10/2019 8:45 am
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member

People that have a short and wide face and squared mandible (that are signs of good development) and start "mewing" just because they want to become more "attractive" according to their  biased standard of beauty, are simply stupid.

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Posted : 30/10/2019 12:57 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I never implied chewing was bad but overdone masseters strengthening does cause the bloated look where you just have a squate jaw and nothing else.

Sure our diets were theoretically harder but we also were breast fed more so it isn't just to do with chewing. People who overdo chewing don't end up more aesthetic than people who don't do it at all.

Besides, facial ratios (spacing between features) make a person attractive. Not how square the jaw is. You can even have a compact short skull and still have a long midface. 

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Posted : 30/10/2019 2:37 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @kyte

People that have a short and wide face and squared mandible (that are signs of good development) and start "mewing" just because they want to become more "attractive" according to their  biased standard of beauty, are simply stupid.

A short wide face and square mandible are hardly signs of optimal development. Especially considering since many people with these features have pronounced deep overbites where the lower incisors sometimes barely show. 

Good development = balance between bony soft tissue prominence, as well as resting muscle tone that isn't too weak or on the other spectrum causing an imbalance. Many short faced people have overly tonic chewing muscles. 

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Posted : 30/10/2019 2:40 pm
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member

It depends on what you mean with short face. Of course, balance is the answer for everything. 

I probably have her  opposite problem: long midface and weak chin because it points down. 

Mewing prevents this kind of development and basically consists in engaging the posterior third of the tongue and keep the teeth together in order to make the face not really shorter, but rather, projected forward

Posted by: @eddiemoney

If she engaged her posterior third more she may be able to pull her maxilla down a bit and clockwise rotate her mandible

That' s the opposite of mewing's goal, and according to it, my case would become even worse. I don't understand, Mike always talks about "pushing" up and forward allowing the mandible to come forward (far from the airway) and to swing up

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Her maxilla looks very clockwise rotated

well, absolutely not

try to draw what you mean on it

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/10/2019 4:41 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @kyte

It depends on what you mean with short face. Of course, balance is the answer for everything. 

I probably have her  opposite problem: long midface and weak chin because it points down. 

Mewing prevents this kind of development and basically consists in engaging the posterior third of the tongue and keep the teeth together in order to make the face not really shorter, but rather, projected forward

Posted by: @eddiemoney

If she engaged her posterior third more she may be able to pull her maxilla down a bit and clockwise rotate her mandible

That' s the opposite of mewing's goal, and according to it, my case would become even worse. I don't understand, Mike always talks about "pushing" up and forward allowing the mandible to come forward (far from the airway) and to swing up

Something like that?

-- attachment is not available --

clean image for you

 

 

 

If I see pics of your face (or a similar case) I would be better able to address it. 

In this woman's case her posterior third would rotate her maxilla counterclockwise. Her maxilla now is very clockwise rotated with a short vertical height, giving her that deep bite structure and retroclined incisors. I bet she is a Class 2 Div 2 with that face structure. Rotating her maxilla counterclockwise in her case would lengthen her face since her maxilla is rotated too clockwise. It may be vertically short but in her case facial height isn't an issue to address. If she GAINED some her chin would soften and her lips may pout more. Her incisors may also become proclined a bit. @Rockyp33 seemed to have a very similar face structure. In this case, engagement of the posterior third would give a better bite structure. 

In long faced cases, it varies. I would stay engagement of the posterior third is STILL important but widening is what will save your face. If your face looks too long, giving it width can help alleviate this. But also facial muscle usage matters a lot. The above woman may want to really focus on less chewing and more posterior third engagement where in your case, palate widening is more important. I don't say not to engage your posterior third, but sideways pushing can be beneficial. I know it has given me benefit.

Also, what is your bite structure? Are you Class 2 Div 1 or Class 3 by any chance? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/10/2019 5:00 pm
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Her maxilla now is very clockwise rotated with a short vertical height, giving her that deep bite structure and retroclined incisors.

No, no,no! This is a clockwise rotated maxilla that weakens the profile and even obstrudes airways, that got treated to rotate it counterclockwise

http://www.drlarrywolford.com/orthognathic-corrective-jaw-surgery/

Posted by: @eddiemoney

sideways pushing can be beneficial.

In my case, yes I agree 

it's complicated, but basically it's a Class 3, with crossbite and front openbite

Going back to that women, in my opinion there is nothing wrong with her face, maybe she need just a little advancement

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Posted : 30/10/2019 5:04 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @kyte

It depends on what you mean with short face. Of course, balance is the answer for everything. 

I probably have her  opposite problem: long midface and weak chin because it points down. 

Mewing prevents this kind of development and basically consists in engaging the posterior third of the tongue and keep the teeth together in order to make the face not really shorter, but rather, projected forward

Posted by: @eddiemoney

If she engaged her posterior third more she may be able to pull her maxilla down a bit and clockwise rotate her mandible

That' s the opposite of mewing's goal, and according to it, my case would become even worse. I don't understand, Mike always talks about "pushing" up and forward allowing the mandible to come forward (far from the airway) and to swing up

Posted by: @eddiemoney

Her maxilla looks very clockwise rotated

well, absolutely not

try to draw what you mean on it

 

 

You confuse an occlusal plane with vertical height. Lots of short faced people commonly have Class 2 Div 2 bite structure (deep overbite with no overjet) which means relative to their mandible, their maxilla os rotated clockwise.

Maxillary rotation isn't the same as vertical height all the time. You can have two people with the same clockwise rotation of the maxilla and the same occlusal plane while one maxilla can be shorter than the other.

The reason why a maxilla can be vertically and STILL clockwise rotated is because the person may be chewing excessively which deepens the bite structure. Whenever a bite deepens it rotates clockwise. When it opens it rotates counterclockwise.

Notice how this short facial profile becomes longer when the maxilla rotates counterclockwise and the mandible rotates clockwise. But this lengthening gives better soft tissue support. The maxilla moved DOWN and yet this allowed the teeth to come forward. So yes, it is possible to be short faced with a clockwise rotated maxilla. A maxilla can be both up high and far back (Class 2 Div 2) the same way it can be far down and too protruded (Class 2 Div 1). In both the maxilla isn't positioned properly. You don't want the maxilla too jammed up as this makes you pug faced nor do you want it too far down since it can make your features look too weak. 

The point is that a short maxilla can still benefit from CCW rotation. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/10/2019 5:35 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @kyte
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Her maxilla now is very clockwise rotated with a short vertical height, giving her that deep bite structure and retroclined incisors.

No, no,no! This is a clockwise rotated maxilla that weakens the profile and even obstrudes airways, that got treated to rotate it counterclockwise

http://www.drlarrywolford.com/orthognathic-corrective-jaw-surgery/

Posted by: @eddiemoney

sideways pushing can be beneficial.

In my case, yes I agree 

it's complicated, but basically it's a Class 3, with crossbite and front openbite

Going back to that women, in my opinion there is nothing wrong with her face, maybe she need just a little advancement

You seem to need lots of space between your upper canines. Increasing the width of those will go a long way.

Btw your maxilla may be clockwise rotated but so is your mandible. People with short faces usually have a counterclockwise rotated mandible on the other hand. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/10/2019 7:25 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

@eddiemoney

I haven read the whole post but yes i believe i do have a similar structure to what you guys are speaking of. I grinded my teeth most of my life and has improper tongue posture. I have a decently deep overbite which makes my lower third smaller its not terrible but i live with it. i had tongue posture a bit in the front but pretty much i wasnt breastfed ate probably not ideal foods and played a lot of video games. i would sleep and breathe through my mouth for a long time. I dont believe i have overjet either. Actually my front teeth are reclined as are my bottom teeth. Even though i have a similar bite i dont have very big masseters and i still have a small lowerd third. What should i focus on the improve this? more on the posterior third? chewing? with my orthodontics treatment my front teeth were proclined for a period of time which allowed my jaw to slide forward and ALMOST allow my molars to touch, only problem was that the teeth between two big front teeth and the canines wasnt procline enough, but if it was proclined just a little i feel like my bite would be so much better

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Posted : 30/10/2019 11:44 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

@pame

I think you are correct in most cases we should be chewing a lot and i would imagine it shouldnt hurt us. BUTTTTTT when you chewing and you dont have a proper mechanism to balance against it aka MEWING/TONGUE POSTURE. I think thats whhen we end up seeing problems thats literally bruxism

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Posted : 31/10/2019 12:03 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@rockyp33

It's not really mewing acts as a counter balance to chewing, it's that chewing when your TMJ is compromised can cause issues. Mewing can improve your TMJ so that chewing does not damage it.

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Posted : 31/10/2019 6:24 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

if you only chew and dont mew even if you have good posture its going to hurt your teeth or joint

ReplyQuote
Posted : 31/10/2019 6:26 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

@eddiemoney

I would appreciate some advice for dealing with this? i posted up above as you can say stating i have a similar bite what should i focus on?

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Posted : 03/11/2019 9:28 pm