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Does a big hooked nose always mean recessed maxilla?  

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Yusu
 Yusu
Eminent Member

Or can it be because of genetic? My father has the same hooked nose as me but my maxilla should be fine, as I heard many times.

I wonder if too much cartilage can be genetic

 

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Posted : 03/03/2020 4:17 am
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

Out of proportion nose = always CFD because a big and hooked nose can hardly allow good forward growth and don't mention Gandy because his nose is not really as big and hooked as people often like to say. I know two brothers, one has typical CFD features while the other one looks like his nose breather counterpart. The CFD brother has a weaker jaw and chin, worse eye area and a more hooked, bigger nose. His brother has a wider jaw, a more protruding chin, vertically narrower eyes and a smaller nose that is less hooked. 

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Posted : 03/03/2020 11:02 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@horatio

Out of proportion nose = always CFD

Eh, I doubt that it's always that simple. I don't understand why people insist on the nose shape being a result of exclusively CFD, or exclusively genetics. It's more likely that it's a combination of both. I have seen a good number of people with good forward facial development and a prominent nose bump. Conversely, I have also seen many with bad forward development and straight noses. Some people have cleft chins, some people have smooth chins; some people have hooked noses, some people have straight noses. Sometimes it's a function of CFD, other times it's a function of genetics. Usually both.

24 years old

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Posted : 03/03/2020 11:44 am
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

@elwynn

That's obviously true but if a nose is so big that it proportionally doesn't fit into your face then how is it possible to have good forward growth? Take me as an example. I have a relatively long nose (vertically) and because my midface is so long my gonial  angle is subpar because the ramus can't physically be as long to allow a low gonial angle (in this case a forward grown maxilla would be more than useful). Likewise, I personally don't believe that very hooked noses are genetic, I mean if the tip of your nose looks almost vertical then there's definitely some CFD going on. However a slight bump can still in occur in people with good forward growth like in some Native Americans for example who are "well known" for their crazy forward growth.

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Posted : 03/03/2020 2:01 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

Unfortunately those of us with "straight" noses + recessed maxilla end up with a big ol nose bump and downturning at the tip particularly when smiling. I believe this is because the soft tissue isnt properly supported. Unfortunately the nose type seems more sensitive to CFD compared to upturned noses, which arent noticeably affected from what I've seen.

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Posted : 03/03/2020 3:41 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

What about a "piggy" nose? The short upturned kind that is also wide. What causes those? You see them every so often in people and I have no idea why. 

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Posted : 03/03/2020 5:45 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

Its possible that the nasal suture's growth can affect how the nose cartilage angles relatively. 

Like how the bottom nub of the opening of the nasal passage should be in line with the end of the nasal bone:

Changing this ratio either too much on the bottom insertion or top insertion would surely effect the nasal cartilage's form.

I for instance have the top nasal bone far ahead of the bottom and that combined with what I think is meant to be a straight nose type ends up hooked, because the soft tissues are being pulled down/back by a recessed bottom nub.

I don't have any specific vocabulary for what I'm trying to say here so I hope you understand.

Anyway I think nose form can be strongly affected by skull form, but it doesnt change the shape of the nasal cartilage, on the argument of noses and CFD.

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Posted : 03/03/2020 10:22 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @maxiller

@eddiemoney

Its possible that the nasal suture's growth can affect how the nose cartilage angles relatively. 

Like how the bottom nub of the opening of the nasal passage should be in line with the end of the nasal bone:

Changing this ratio either too much on the bottom insertion or top insertion would surely effect the nasal cartilage's form.

I for instance have the top nasal bone far ahead of the bottom and that combined with what I think is meant to be a straight nose type ends up hooked, because the soft tissues are being pulled down/back by a recessed bottom nub.

I don't have any specific vocabulary for what I'm trying to say here so I hope you understand.

Anyway I think nose form can be strongly affected by skull form, but it doesnt change the shape of the nasal cartilage, on the argument of noses and CFD.

How would skull form affect nose shape? 

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Posted : 03/03/2020 10:25 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@horatio

That's obviously true but if a nose is so big that it proportionally doesn't fit into your face then how is it possible to have good forward growth? 

I think that this depends on where you draw the line between a proportional and an out-of-proportion nose.

24 years old

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Posted : 03/03/2020 10:28 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

A more prominent jaw can always make a nose look smaller unless the maxilla us underdeveloped. So a Class 1 large jawed person wouldn't appear as big nosed as a Class 3 for example. 

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Posted : 03/03/2020 11:47 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

 

Posted by: @eddiemoney

How would skull form affect nose shape? 

This is rough but I hope you see the general idea. I'm stuck with MS Paint unfortunately

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Posted : 05/03/2020 1:09 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@maxiller

I think that's a good animation.

Could it also be the case that expansion width-wise affects the nose too (albeit less so)?

24 years old

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Posted : 05/03/2020 3:21 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @maxiller

 

Posted by: @eddiemoney

How would skull form affect nose shape? 

This is rough but I hope you see the general idea. I'm stuck with MS Paint unfortunately

The jaw isn't recessed here, right? The gonial angle is almost the same despite the change in the nose.

How would it look like for people with recessed mandibles and high gonial angles?

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Posted : 05/03/2020 4:57 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney

A more prominent jaw can always make a nose look smaller unless the maxilla us underdeveloped.

I don't think that's always the case. I saw a girl once and her jaw came forward significantly in 3 years but her nose looked bigger than before.

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Posted : 05/03/2020 4:59 am
max iller
Eminent Member

@azrael

It's far oversimplified, the gonial angle isn't really important to illustrate it, the focus was intended to be on the nasal bone's relation to the maxilla. How it could effect the nose.

I can't say for sure how a classic CFD case would look exactly, it depends on the nose type, but the nasal bump would probably be pronounced. and the tip angled down. A lot like my gif, just more accurate to real skull growth patterns, not artificial recession of the maxilla like I did. Keep in mind, it's ROUGH.

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Posted : 05/03/2020 5:44 am
Azrael liked
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @eddiemoney

A more prominent jaw can always make a nose look smaller unless the maxilla us underdeveloped.

I don't think that's always the case. I saw a girl once and her jaw came forward significantly in 3 years but her nose looked bigger than before.

Her nose looked bigger without changing size? Or do you think the jaw coming forward during growth happened as her nose grew into adult size? Keep in mind I am assuming the nose size is fixed as the jaw expands. 

I myself have seen young women grow larger jaws and noses simultaneously into their adult years but that was just skull maturity happening, which assumes everyone's nose and jaw get bigger into adulthood. One lady I knew used to look like a cute pudgy faced Indian girl in her 20s but in her 30s as her jaw and nose have grown so much she now looks kind of like a portrait of a witch with a hooked nose and large ramus with prominent chin. So I know it is possible. 

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Posted : 05/03/2020 2:42 pm
Captain Horatio Hornblower
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

Yep

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Posted : 05/03/2020 3:14 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @horatio

@eddiemoney

Yep

I wonder if the Amerindian nose is a result of the ratio of nose bridge to nasal spine

The European nose has a larger nose bridge and a more prominent spine than the Native American. Where I find Europeans don't tend to aquiline noses as often and instead to either straight or those upturned piggy noses I mentioned earlier. 

Looks like the Native American nose may be affected by the smaller spine that comes in behind the nose bridge. The European nose is different in that the bridge and spine are along a straight line. So maybe this is why aquiline noses are less common in Europeans.  

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Posted : 05/03/2020 4:48 pm