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Do I Push Up Or Up And Forward On Palate?

johndoe1225
Active Member

Hi everyone, first post here

When I mew, and swallow of course, what direction is the force supposed to be applied to my palate? Am I supposed to push in an up and forward direction, or do I just try to push straight up?

Also, when I swallow, I can do it where like most of the force comes from way back in my throat, with slightly less force applied to the more front areas of my palate. Should I not do this and instead focus on pushing evenly? It feels like most of the force comes from the middle (and maybe the back, it's really hard to tell), and not much from the tip of the tongue. Sometimes it almost feels like the tip of my tongue curls down a bit from the force applied to the middle/back.  It almost feels like most of the force is being applied to the ridge in the front/middle (where the palate curves up steeply) in an up and forward direction.  I think that the front most part of my palate (the area just behind the incisive papilla, before the palate curves up) receives very little force.

I don't think I have any problem resting my tongue there without force though, I just want to know how to apply the force when I do.

Thanks everyone

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Topic starter Posted : 26/07/2019 6:17 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

Push up and forward imo. The AGGA appliance applies force forward just above the front teeth, where you say the palate curves steeply (this is called a vault). Ronald Ead has shown from his AGGA treatment that his maxilla has gotten longer/expanded forward, I think it could be possible to do this with the tongue. So push forward with the tip of the tongue on the vault, and push up towards the middle/back, this is what makes most sense to me since it's impossible to push up on the vaulted area of the palate since it's steep and there's no leverage to push up. If you were to try to push up with the tip of the tongue the only way to do so would be to bring your tongue further back, which I think you shouldn't do.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/how-to-grow-your-mandible-why-ronald-eads-agga-treatment-didnt-work-as-expected/

Here's a post I made about the topic.

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Posted : 27/07/2019 6:27 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member

@sinned

Hi, thanks for the reply!

When you say "push forward with the tip of your tongue on the vault", wouldn't that mean that I'd have to move my tongue farther back off of the incicive papilla and place it against the steep slope?

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Topic starter Posted : 28/07/2019 3:07 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@johndoe1225

Whatever feels best, just make sure you don't push the front teeth. I might be able to send a picture of how I'm posturing my tongue so you can see what it looks like.

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Posted : 28/07/2019 5:07 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

If you’re downswung, assume proper resting position.  Pushing up is not good.

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Posted : 28/07/2019 10:47 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member
Posted by: @sinned

@johndoe1225

Whatever feels best, just make sure you don't push the front teeth. I might be able to send a picture of how I'm posturing my tongue so you can see what it looks like.

That's actually why I started mewing in the first place; I have a removable retainer (I think it's just for the top front like 4 or so teeth) and I realized that I was pressing on my front teeth a bit when I swallowed, so I thought if I didn't have the retainer, my teeth would push out, and a retainer is obviously not natural, so this can't be right, lol.

 

Also does "downswung" just mean basically recessed, or not very forward grown in general?

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Topic starter Posted : 28/07/2019 11:21 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@johndoe1225

Downswung refers to the angle of the maxilla. When the maxilla grows "wrong" it angles downwards and goes back into the airway.

gif 1

Like this basically. Recession refers to the same thing basically, the maxilla is "receding" back into the airway. This isn't the only thing that occurs though, people are also underdeveloped, meaning that the maxilla literally just isn't big enough to house the tongue. If you can imagine, our ancestors had like a 50-55 mm IMW, I measured my own tongue it's about 55 mm wide, therefore my IMW should be about 55 mm. You get the point, the width of the tongue is strongly associated with the size of the palate in properly developed individuals because the tongue is involved in growing the midface/palate. Just as reference most people have a 30-40 IMW, nowhere near where it should be. It's not just about width, the tongue obviously gets bigger in all dimensions, including length, so our maxillas are also not long enough. This is what the AGGA appliance tries to fix albeit with problems of it's own. If the tongue grows the maxilla, then the maxilla grows the mandible, so because of the underdeveloped maxilla people also have underdeveloped mandibles. 

@darkindigo

Proper resting position pushes the tongue up, it's rather unavoidable. Even if I "rest" my tongue as you say on the roof of the mouth, once I assume proper head posture the tongue pushes up on it's own. In addition the engagement of the back of the tongue is what upswings the maxilla.

 

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Posted : 28/07/2019 11:48 pm
johndoe1225
Active Member

@sinned

Ok thanks, that's a very helpful graphic

The other day I visited my orthodontist who showed me X-rays when I had my braces removed 3 years ago (I'm 28 now), and my skull actually looked really great from the side, but I think I have some minor recession based on some crude side profiles I took of myself, it's hard to get it right though.

This whole thing is very confusing to me, I used to be 100% satisfied with the way I look, but then I got lazy with my diet and gained like almost 20 pounds, and now I'm almost the same weight (the same as in 20 pounds heavier than before I got lazy) but somehow much thinner, and I look like I lost a lot of muscle, which I didn't have much of in the first place, so I'm kind of thinking my problems are caused by my body composition.  And this all started maybe a year ago.

So maybe I rest my tongue against the steep curve, not the incisive papilla, and try to push only forwards when swallowing?  I will probably end up pushing up a little bit though since it feels kind of hard to push forward without pushing up.

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Topic starter Posted : 28/07/2019 11:54 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@johndoe1225

I sent a message, it's not the best but it shows where tip of my tongue is. Maybe that will help.

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Posted : 29/07/2019 12:06 am
johndoe1225
Active Member

@sinned

It's so hard to see what your tongue does in the mirror because if you open your mouth to check it gets pulled out of place lol

Is your tongue in that picture behind the incisive papilla or like right on it, just barely behind your two front teeth?

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Topic starter Posted : 29/07/2019 12:08 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@johndoe1225

On the black part just above the teeth there's an angle before it gets to the vaulted part, I'm not sure how to explain. So just below the black around the green area is where I feel the tip of my tongue.

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Posted : 29/07/2019 12:26 am
johndoe1225
Active Member

@sinned

Huh, maybe my tongue was too far forward, I thought I was keeping it off of my front teeth but maybe I didn't notice it touching.

 

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Topic starter Posted : 29/07/2019 12:31 am
sinned
Estimable Member

@johndoe1225

So around the black part you see how it's smooth? When my tongue pushes forward I feel it around the "bumpy"/"ridgy" area. However from the pic I sent you you can tell it still looks like my tongue is covering my whole mouth, so I feel it around the ridgy area around the green area, but do to the thickness and size of the tongue it might look like I'm pushing on the black area. Just experiment around for yourself since people have differing palates, I would say you should be resting/pushing above the front teeth past the smooth black area and at the point when you get those ridges and ripples.

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Posted : 29/07/2019 12:36 am
johndoe1225
Active Member

@sinned

Ok that makes sense!

I heard somewhere too that your tongue should be about 1/2 inch behind your front teeth so I guess it's almost the same thing more or less.

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Topic starter Posted : 29/07/2019 12:37 am
johndoe1225
Active Member

So for the last maybe two days I've been trying to put the advice I got into my mewing and I've noticed that in order to push forward primarily, I have to kind of brace the middle of my tongue against the part of my palate where it curves up steeply.  If I do this I can kind of feel some nice forward pressure, so I guess it's ok.  I kind of try to push hard when I swallow, but when I'm resting I mostly soft mew, sometimes I'll push a little bit though if I'm bored.

Thanks again for the advice

 

EDIT:  I think something may have changed in my palate.  I find it MUCH easier to push with the middle/back part of the tongue when I swallow now.  Like the force starts from the very back and works its way forward, it feels much different and stronger.  It feels like I have an easier time of bracing my tongue against my palate and pushing forwards and (a little bit) up.

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Topic starter Posted : 30/07/2019 5:53 pm