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Discussion on the use and requirement of toothpaste  

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auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ronaldead

@auxiliarus haha oh man, look you guys know i'm not afraid to rag on myself, if i thought my teeth were rotten i'd say so. yeah the fronts got raped by (mostly) AGGA and the roots are weak and narrow, and yes the tips of the teeth have become more transparent, which i think is because they aren't making much contact with fresh saliva due to the Invisalign trays (does saliva help remineralize teeth? i think so). transparency may also have to do with loss of vitality from root damage, i'm not entirely sure.

however the stains that appear to be rot are actually just, well, stains. i always get that browning between cleanings due to consuming black coffee and a sizable portion of 85% dark chocolate on a daily basis, combined with not using whitening toothpaste. it's especially bad at the moment because i am overdue for a cleaning (was supposed to be in March, but covid...). actually, though, it's been years since i've had a cavity.

You should try dropping toothpaste and only brushing with water, toothpaste removes protective teeth barrier, maybe that's why chocolate/coffee makes them brown, I eat a lot of 85% dark chocolate as well and my teeth aren't brown, they're yellowish, but not brown. I never brush my teeth, no cavity either. The whole dental industry is a huge scam made long time ago to make money, in roman times people didn't have cavities.But these days we have things like cola, the ultimate teeth killer, acidic as hell and full of sugar, but a toothpaste would still be more bad than good, just wash sugar and acid with water, they're some of the most water-soluble molecules out there.

As for your roots, might I suggest adding some chewing into your routine? Chewing pushes teeth deeper into gums, maybe that'll help? 

Quote
Posted : 06/05/2020 9:48 am
Thomas22 liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You should try dropping toothpaste and only brushing with water, toothpaste removes protective teeth barrier, maybe that's why chocolate/coffee makes them brown

 Fluoride toothpastes practically remineralize teeth and protect teeth from the acids in food (that's why they are recommended before eating), what are you  on about?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 9:55 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You should try dropping toothpaste and only brushing with water, toothpaste removes protective teeth barrier, maybe that's why chocolate/coffee makes them brown

Next level broscience. Fluoride toothpastes practically remineralize teeth and protect teeth from the acids in food (that's why they are recommended before eating), what are you even on about?

There's no acids in food, acid comes from bacteria that eat the food and create an acidic environment. As for toothpastes, Romans didn't need it and had good teeth.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 10:19 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You should try dropping toothpaste and only brushing with water, toothpaste removes protective teeth barrier, maybe that's why chocolate/coffee makes them brown

Next level broscience. Fluoride toothpastes practically remineralize teeth and protect teeth from the acids in food (that's why they are recommended before eating), what are you even on about?

There's no acids in food, acid comes from bacteria that eat the food and create an acidic environment. As for toothpastes, Romans didn't need it and had good teeth.

 

Acidic food such as soft drinks (phosphoric, carbonic acids iirc), fruits (citrus fruits contain citric acid) do contain acids, as far as I am aware. There's also the acidic residue from bacteria which digest all kinds of food particles in the mouth causing dimenralization of the teeth, plaque and tartar formation. Fluoride and xylitol toothpastes have shown to reduce formation of plaque (xylitol is an alcohol bacteria cannot digest btw, which causes them to die iirc), so I don't see why someone should not use toothpaste at all, if given the choice.

Romans didn't use toothpaste, obviously, because they didn't have it and used something else as an alternative. They didn't do nothing as you seem to encourage here, they did the best thing they could during their time, which was some sort of powder? Can't recall what they used exactly but I remember reading something similar.

My argument is fluoride toothpaste (or fluoride+xylitol toothpaste) is better than no toothpaste at all.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 10:41 am
RamonT liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You should try dropping toothpaste and only brushing with water, toothpaste removes protective teeth barrier, maybe that's why chocolate/coffee makes them brown

Next level broscience. Fluoride toothpastes practically remineralize teeth and protect teeth from the acids in food (that's why they are recommended before eating), what are you even on about?

There's no acids in food, acid comes from bacteria that eat the food and create an acidic environment. As for toothpastes, Romans didn't need it and had good teeth.

 

Acidic food such as soft drinks (phosphoric, carbonic acids iirc), fruits (citrus fruits contain citric acid) do contain acids, as far as I am aware. There's also the acidic residue from bacteria which digest all kinds of food particles in the mouth causing dimenralization of the teeth, plaque and tartar formation. Fluoride and xylitol toothpastes have shown to reduce formation of plaque (xylitol is an alcohol bacteria cannot digest btw, which causes them to die iirc), so I don't see why someone should not use toothpaste at all, if given the choice.

Romans didn't use toothpaste, obviously, because they didn't have it and used something else as an alternative. They didn't do nothing as you seem to encourage here, they did the best thing they could during their time, which was some sort of powder? Can't recall what they used exactly but I remember reading something similar.

My argument is fluoride toothpaste (or fluoride+xylitol toothpaste) is better than no toothpaste at all.

My argument isn't that toothpaste doesn't help against cavities, it's that it's not needed. Acids all easily dissolve in water and food is easily removed by brushing and water. So why the need for a toothpaste? Just brush with water. Toothpaste is a waste of money and it removes plaque that protects the teeth from these acids :

Within the limitations of numbers of specimens, dental plaque/pellicle provided a significant level of protection to tooth enamel against dental erosion from simulated gastric acids and from white wine, using an in vivo-in vitro model. It was unable to provide any significant protection to root surfaces from these erosive agents. Possible reasons for this difference are explored.

Saliva has some antibacterial properties as well, I have reasons to believe that mouth breathing and not necessarily plaque itself is responsible for overgrowth of bacteria.

And your argument on the Romans doesn't stand up based on this finding :

While cavities are well known to modern humans, they are quite rare in our ape relatives. Cavities occur in just 1.38% of the permanent teeth of wild chimpanzees, the researchers reported

Toothpaste is simply not needed when your diet is good, and if your diet is bad, toothpaste won't even help you enough. I'm talking about sugary products and unnatural acidic products specifically.

 

Plaque is just saliva and food together, with some bacteria, not all bacteria are bad, but as the monkey studies show, it seems that when the right food is eaten there's barely any damage from the bacteria to the teeth.

And while there is no evidence to suggest this, I believe lost enamel can reform from help of plaque and I believe toothpastes impedes this process.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 11:50 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ronaldead

@auxiliarus haha oh man, look you guys know i'm not afraid to rag on myself, if i thought my teeth were rotten i'd say so. yeah the fronts got raped by (mostly) AGGA and the roots are weak and narrow, and yes the tips of the teeth have become more transparent, which i think is because they aren't making much contact with fresh saliva due to the Invisalign trays (does saliva help remineralize teeth? i think so). transparency may also have to do with loss of vitality from root damage, i'm not entirely sure.

however the stains that appear to be rot are actually just, well, stains. i always get that browning between cleanings due to consuming black coffee and a sizable portion of 85% dark chocolate on a daily basis, combined with not using whitening toothpaste. it's especially bad at the moment because i am overdue for a cleaning (was supposed to be in March, but covid...). actually, though, it's been years since i've had a cavity.

Transparent teeth imply that enamel is messed up, this is why they get colored so easily from caffeine/chocolate.

There's some evidence enamel can regrow :

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2214797-gel-that-makes-teeth-repair-themselves-could-spell-the-end-of-fillings/

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 11:55 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

My argument isn't that toothpaste doesn't help against cavities, it's that it's not needed. Acids all easily dissolve in water and food is easily removed by brushing and water. So why the need for a toothpaste? Just brush with water. Toothpaste is a waste of money and it removes plaque that protects the teeth from these acids :

Within the limitations of numbers of specimens, dental plaque/pellicle provided a significant level of protection to tooth enamel against dental erosion from simulated gastric acids and from white wine, using an in vivo-in vitro model. It was unable to provide any significant protection to root surfaces from these erosive agents. Possible reasons for this difference are explored.

Exactly. Water washes away the acids (to a certain degree) but it can't remineralize teeth. Only fluoride toothpaste (or simply fluoride) can. Water can wash away acids but it can't kill bacteria feeding on food particles, only xylitol can. I don't even see the need to explain this to you, this is pretty much common sense at this point on which of the two options (simply water or toothpaste) is better.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

And your argument on the Romans doesn't stand up based on this finding :

While cavities are well known to modern humans, they are quite rare in our ape relatives. Cavities occur in just 1.38% of the permanent teeth of wild chimpanzees, the researchers reported

Toothpaste is simply not needed when your diet is good, and if your diet is bad, toothpaste won't even help you enough. I'm talking about sugary products and unnatural acidic products specifically.

Last time I checked, Romans were not chimpanzees. You are comparing apples and oranges here. You can't expect the teeth of domestic cats to be the same like a tiger's just because they are both from the same family.

Also, chimps don't eat all the sugary, acidic junk food we humans do. They mostly eat fruits, leaves and meat as far as I know, so of course their tooth decay is not comparable.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Plaque is just saliva and food together, with some bacteria, not all bacteria are bad, but as the monkey studies show, it seems that when the right food is eaten there's barely any damage from the bacteria to the teeth.

And while there is no evidence to suggest this, I believe lost enamel can reform from help of plaque and I believe toothpastes impedes this process.

Yes, I didn't say all bacteria are bad. The chimp diet is way different from our modern human diet. Not to mention, even the Romans. Demineralization of the teeth is an inevitability with our current diets and going all ape-like or Roman on our teeth is not going to help us since even the plethora of toothpastes are barely successful at preserving our dental health.

Toothpastes aren't perfect, obviously, but just water is even worse.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 12:14 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

My argument isn't that toothpaste doesn't help against cavities, it's that it's not needed. Acids all easily dissolve in water and food is easily removed by brushing and water. So why the need for a toothpaste? Just brush with water. Toothpaste is a waste of money and it removes plaque that protects the teeth from these acids :

Within the limitations of numbers of specimens, dental plaque/pellicle provided a significant level of protection to tooth enamel against dental erosion from simulated gastric acids and from white wine, using an in vivo-in vitro model. It was unable to provide any significant protection to root surfaces from these erosive agents. Possible reasons for this difference are explored.

Exactly. Water washes away the acids (to a certain degree) but it can't remineralize teeth. Only fluoride toothpaste (or simply fluoride) can. Water can wash away acids but it can't kill bacteria feeding on food particles, only xylitol can. I don't even see the need to explain this to you, this is pretty much common sense at this point on which of the two options (simply water or toothpaste) is better.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

And your argument on the Romans doesn't stand up based on this finding :

While cavities are well known to modern humans, they are quite rare in our ape relatives. Cavities occur in just 1.38% of the permanent teeth of wild chimpanzees, the researchers reported

Toothpaste is simply not needed when your diet is good, and if your diet is bad, toothpaste won't even help you enough. I'm talking about sugary products and unnatural acidic products specifically.

Last time I checked, Romans were not chimpanzees. You are comparing apples and oranges here. You can't expect the teeth of domestic cats to be the same like a tiger's just because they are both from the same family.

Also, chimps don't eat all the sugary, acidic junk food we humans do. They mostly eat fruits, leaves and meat as far as I know, so of course their tooth decay is not comparable.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Plaque is just saliva and food together, with some bacteria, not all bacteria are bad, but as the monkey studies show, it seems that when the right food is eaten there's barely any damage from the bacteria to the teeth.

And while there is no evidence to suggest this, I believe lost enamel can reform from help of plaque and I believe toothpastes impedes this process.

Yes, I didn't say all bacteria are bad. The chimp diet is way different from our modern human diet. Not to mention, even the Romans. Demineralization of the teeth is an inevitability with our current diets and going all ape-like or Roman on our teeth is not going to help us since even the plethora of toothpastes are barely successful at preserving our dental health.

Toothpastes aren't perfect, obviously, but just water is even worse.

 

You said only fluoride can remineralize, this is simply incorrect.

Tooth remineralisation is the natural repair process for non-cavitated tooth lesions,[1][2] in which calcium, phosphate and sometimes fluoride ions are deposited into crystal voids in demineralised enamel. Remineralisation can contribute towards restoring strength and function within tooth structure.[3]

Calcium and Phosphate are the main ions responsible for teeth remineralisation.

Chimps eat fruit all day long, which is full of sugar. Diet differences? Sugar is sugar, no matter where it is.

Bacteria convert glucose, fructose, and sucrose into acids through a process called glycolysis

Romans didn't use anything, prehistoric men didn't use anything, they all had good teeth, just like monkeys don't use anything and have good teeth, way better than ours.

And no, just water isn't worse. If you have food or whatever in your mouth, just wash it, boom problem gone, no more food to create excess bacteria.

People will come here and make their own minds when they read mine and yours comments.

And if toothpaste doesn't protect against cola, then it's still a scam and a waste of money.

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 12:47 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

Wouldn’t you get bad breath from not using toothpaste?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 12:54 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You said only fluoride can remineralize, this is simply incorrect.

Tooth remineralisation is the natural repair process for non-cavitated tooth lesions,[1][2] in which calcium, phosphate and sometimes fluoride ions are deposited into crystal voids in demineralised enamel. Remineralisation can contribute towards restoring strength and function within tooth structure.[3]

Calcium and Phosphate are the main ions responsible for teeth remineralisation.

Chimps eat fruit all day long, which is full of sugar. Diet differences? Sugar is sugar, no matter where it is.

Bacteria convert glucose, fructose, and sucrose into acids through a process called glycolysis

Romans didn't use anything, prehistoric men didn't use anything, they all had good teeth, just like monkeys don't use anything and have good teeth, way better than ours.

I said "only fluoride" since we were talking about water and fluoride only, genius. Let me know when your water only approach gets phosphate ions included. Besides, some toothpaste already has got phosphate as an ingredient.

Romans did use something as an alternative

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 1:13 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You said only fluoride can remineralize, this is simply incorrect.

Tooth remineralisation is the natural repair process for non-cavitated tooth lesions,[1][2] in which calcium, phosphate and sometimes fluoride ions are deposited into crystal voids in demineralised enamel. Remineralisation can contribute towards restoring strength and function within tooth structure.[3]

Calcium and Phosphate are the main ions responsible for teeth remineralisation.

Chimps eat fruit all day long, which is full of sugar. Diet differences? Sugar is sugar, no matter where it is.

Bacteria convert glucose, fructose, and sucrose into acids through a process called glycolysis

Romans didn't use anything, prehistoric men didn't use anything, they all had good teeth, just like monkeys don't use anything and have good teeth, way better than ours.

I said "only fluoride" since we were talking about water and fluoride only. Let me know when your water only approach gets phosphate ions included. Besides, some toothpaste already has got phosphate as an ingredient.

Romans did use something as an alternative

 

 

 

---

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 2:24 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

I'd like to hear what your thoughts about the article you linked about the gel that repairs tooth enamel, do you think the gel is encouraging/activating a mechanism that the teeth have for self-repair, do you think this is possible without the gel?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 4:11 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

You said only fluoride can remineralize, this is simply incorrect.

Tooth remineralisation is the natural repair process for non-cavitated tooth lesions,[1][2] in which calcium, phosphate and sometimes fluoride ions are deposited into crystal voids in demineralised enamel. Remineralisation can contribute towards restoring strength and function within tooth structure.[3]

Calcium and Phosphate are the main ions responsible for teeth remineralisation.

Chimps eat fruit all day long, which is full of sugar. Diet differences? Sugar is sugar, no matter where it is.

Bacteria convert glucose, fructose, and sucrose into acids through a process called glycolysis

Romans didn't use anything, prehistoric men didn't use anything, they all had good teeth, just like monkeys don't use anything and have good teeth, way better than ours.

I said "only fluoride" since we were talking about water and fluoride only. Let me know when your water only approach gets phosphate ions included. Besides, some toothpaste already has got phosphate as an ingredient.

The Romans did use something as an alternative.

 

---

I'm gonna ask that you both disengage from each other in this discussion, it seems to have run its course. Don't let any topic of discussion become a personal argument, and remember that you always have the option to just ignore what another user posts. There's no need to get the last word in. I'm going to be editing the posts of both users to make them purely on topic and civil.

These toothpaste posts are going to be moved to a new thread, as it seems to be its own discussion topic.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 4:19 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

I've read that fluoride helps restore enamel, but that it needs to be kept on the teeth for a period of time rather than applied and scrubbed off. 

I think a lot of dental issues have to do with a lack of saliva circulation in the mouth, which is why I think bad breath and plaque buildup are most evident after a period of sleep. And why the issue seems to be less prevalent in animals and in populations without CFD.

Mucus – part of the 0.5% of saliva that is not water – contains salivary mucins, compounds that actively protect teeth from damage by the cavity-causing bacterium Streptococcus mutans, according to a new study.

The researchers found that salivary mucins do not alter levels of S. mutans nor kill the bacteria over 24 hours. Instead, they keep the bacteria suspended in a liquid medium, and this in turn reduces their ability to form biofilms on teeth.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/285285

I'm inferring that it seems to be the bacteria and bacterial plaque buildup that damages teeth, not so much the sugar in the mouth itself. Sugars are good for bacteria growth, and when this growth becomes a build-up on the tooth enamel, removing this build up is likely taking enamel with it - which would compound over years of this pattern. However, a strong amount of saliva circulation throughout the mouth seems to prevent this buildup by suspending the bacteria in saliva, and the swallowed saliva moves the bacteria away from the teeth.

Abrasive paste has been used throughout history to help clean the teeth, the charcoal based paste I'm using being one example.

Since 5000 BC, the Egyptians made a tooth powder, which consisted of powdered ashes of ox hooves, myrrh, powdered and burnt eggshells, and pumice. The Greeks, and then the Romans, improved the recipes by adding abrasives such as crushed bones and oyster shells.[48] In the 9th century, Iraqi musician and fashion designer Ziryab invented a type of toothpaste, which he popularized throughout Islamic Spain. The exact ingredients of this toothpaste are unknown, but it was reported to have been both "functional and pleasant to taste".[49] It is not known whether these early toothpastes were used alone, were to be rubbed onto the teeth with rags, or were to be used with early toothbrushes, such as neem-tree twigs and miswak. During Japan's Edo period, inventor Hiraga Gennai's Hika rakuyo (1769), contained advertisements for Sosekiko, a "toothpaste in a box."[50] Toothpastes or powders came into general use in the 19th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toothpaste#History

But there are also many ways to clean without the paste if the brush/utensil is abrasive enough by itself.

Chew sticks are twigs or roots of certain plants that are chewed until one end is frayed. This end can be used to brush against the teeth,[1] while the other end can be used as a toothpick.[2] Most commonly plants are used that have a high content of tannins (astringent and antibacterial) or other compounds that benefit the health of gums and teeth.[3] The earliest chew sticks have been dated to Babylonia in 3500 BC[2] and an Egyptian tomb from 3000 BC;[1] they are mentioned in Chinese records dating from 1600 BC[2] and in the Tipitaka,[4] the Buddhist Canon, purported to be giving account of events which took place in the north-western India around the 5th century BC.

In Africa, chew sticks are made from the tree Salvadora persica, also known as the "toothbrush tree".

In Islam, this tree is traditionally used to create a chew stick called miswak, as frequently advocated for in the hadith (written traditions relating to the life of Muhammad).[5]

Even today, many Indians in rural areas use neem twigs for brushing every morning. It has antibacterial properties and helps keep gums healthy. It is known to reduce many gum related diseases.

Teeth cleaning twigs can be obtained from a variety of tree species. Although many trees are used in the production of teeth cleaning twigs, some trees are better suited to clean and protect the teeth, due to the chemical composition of the plant parts. The tree species are:[7][8][9][10][11][12]

United Kingdom, Europe and United States

Australia

India

  • Peepal tree
  • Indian plum or ber fruit tree
  • Java plum or jamun tree
  • Safed babul
  • Apamarga
  • Bael tree
  • Dhak
  • Madar ak
  • Kamer
  • Karanj
  • Vijayasar
  • Arjun
  • Gular
  • Bargad
  • Mulhatti
  • Tejovati
  • Mango

When compared to toothbrushes, teeth cleaning twigs have several advantages:

  • More ecological in its life-cycle
  • Lower cost (0–16% of the cost of a toothbrush[13])
  • Independence from external supplier if made at home from privately owned trees
  • Low maintenance, with some twigs needing moistening with water if they become dry, to ensure the end is soft. The end may be cut afresh to ensure hygiene, and should not be stored near a sink. The twig is replaced every few weeks to maintain proper hygiene.
  • No need for toothpaste

On the other hand, different species of trees have various levels of hardness just as synthetic toothbrushes would, so careful selection of the right hardness is required before use. Excessive scrubbing too can also bring the risk of gum damage, though this is a concern for plastic toothbrushes as well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teeth_cleaning_twig

So while we can all agree that the teeth need to be cleaned, the chemical properties of the paste (if used) are a good topic for discussion. It is possible that if the paste is too abrasive and used too often, it can damage enamel. This is already clearly recognized in the fact that there are "sensitivity" toothpastes for those with enamel loss, which are designed to be less abrasive than regularly sold paste. It is also possible that a repeated pattern of build-up and removal, likely caused by poor saliva flow, wears away at the enamel over time.

It is also a possibility that many people brush too hard, instead of softly brushing and letting the paste/brush gently clean the teeth, so the enamel is damaged.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 5:14 pm
ayla mao liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @admin

I've read that fluoride helps restore enamel, but that it needs to be kept on the teeth for a period of time rather than applied and scrubbed off. 

I think a lot of dental issues have to do with a lack of saliva circulation in the mouth, which is why I think bad breath and plaque buildup are most evident after a period of sleep. And why the issue seems to be less prevalent in animals and in populations without CFD.

Abrasive paste has likely been used throughout history to help clean the teeth, but there are also many ways to clean without the paste if the brush/utensil is abrasive enough by itself.

Chew sticks are twigs or roots of certain plants that are chewed until one end is frayed. This end can be used to brush against the teeth,[1] while the other end can be used as a toothpick.[2] Most commonly plants are used that have a high content of tannins (astringent and antibacterial) or other compounds that benefit the health of gums and teeth.[3] The earliest chew sticks have been dated to Babylonia in 3500 BC[2] and an Egyptian tomb from 3000 BC;[1] they are mentioned in Chinese records dating from 1600 BC[2] and in the Tipitaka,[4] the Buddhist Canon, purported to be giving account of events which took place in the north-western India around the 5th century BC.

In Africa, chew sticks are made from the tree Salvadora persica, also known as the "toothbrush tree".

In Islam, this tree is traditionally used to create a chew stick called miswak, as frequently advocated for in the hadith (written traditions relating to the life of Muhammad).[5]

Even today, many Indians in rural areas use neem twigs for brushing every morning. It has antibacterial properties and helps keep gums healthy. It is known to reduce many gum related diseases.

Teeth cleaning twigs can be obtained from a variety of tree species. Although many trees are used in the production of teeth cleaning twigs, some trees are better suited to clean and protect the teeth, due to the chemical composition of the plant parts. The tree species are:[7][8][9][10][11][12]

United Kingdom, Europe and United States

Australia

India

  • Peepal tree
  • Indian plum or ber fruit tree
  • Java plum or jamun tree
  • Safed babul
  • Apamarga
  • Bael tree
  • Dhak
  • Madar ak
  • Kamer
  • Karanj
  • Vijayasar
  • Arjun
  • Gular
  • Bargad
  • Mulhatti
  • Tejovati
  • Mango

When compared to toothbrushes, teeth cleaning twigs have several advantages:

  • More ecological in its life-cycle
  • Lower cost (0–16% of the cost of a toothbrush[13])
  • Independence from external supplier if made at home from privately owned trees
  • Low maintenance, with some twigs needing moistening with water if they become dry, to ensure the end is soft. The end may be cut afresh to ensure hygiene, and should not be stored near a sink. The twig is replaced every few weeks to maintain proper hygiene.
  • No need for toothpaste

On the other hand, different species of trees have various levels of hardness just as synthetic toothbrushes would, so careful selection of the right hardness is required before use. Excessive scrubbing too can also bring the risk of gum damage, though this is a concern for plastic toothbrushes as well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teeth_cleaning_twig

So while we can all agree that the teeth need to be cleaned, the chemical properties of the paste (if used) are a good topic for discussion. It is possible that if the paste is too abrasive and used too often, it can damage enamel. This is already clearly recognized in the fact that there are "sensitivity" toothpastes for those with enamel loss, which are designed to be less abrasive than regularly sold paste.

 

 

Good info, TGW, I heard that some older populations chewed on sticks to protect teeth.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 5:21 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @sinned

@auxiliarus

I'd like to hear what your thoughts about the article you linked about the gel that repairs tooth enamel, do you think the gel is encouraging/activating a mechanism that the teeth have for self-repair, do you think this is possible without the gel?

It's known that enamel can remineralize from calcium/phosphate in saliva/plaque, I think the gel uses same mechanism, but much stronger effect achieved by making the particle size smaller and higher contact time.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 5:23 pm
PolHolmes
Eminent Member

Toothpaste is cheap as hell, and when I was living alone a tube took me around 3 months to finish. I don't think there's any reason NOT to use it, it would be different if it was £100 a tube, at the minimum, you get fresher breath and perhaps slightly whiter teeth

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 5:37 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @polholmes

Toothpaste is cheap as hell, and when I was living alone a tube took me around 3 months to finish. I don't think there's any reason NOT to use it, it would be different if it was £100 a tube, at the minimum, you get fresher breath and perhaps slightly whiter teeth

Enamel damage? Why wild apes that don't brush teeth and eat fructose all day long have barely any cavities?

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/05/2020 5:47 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @polholmes

Toothpaste is cheap as hell, and when I was living alone a tube took me around 3 months to finish. I don't think there's any reason NOT to use it, it would be different if it was £100 a tube, at the minimum, you get fresher breath and perhaps slightly whiter teeth

 Why wild apes that don't brush teeth and eat fructose all day long have barely any cavities?

Something I found:

Long-tailed macaques practice good dental hygiene, researchers found when they followed a troupe around a coastal village on Great Nicobar Island in the eastern Indian Ocean, New Scientist reports. The primates keep their teeth clean with improvised floss—bird feathers, coconut fibers, blades of grass, nylon thread—and are the third macaque species found to do so. To get the most of their tools, the monkeys even plan ahead by tearing apart nylon threads before using them. Flossing is just one of the ways our evolutionary cousins use tools effectively, the researchers report in Primates

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/monkeys-may-have-better-dental-hygiene-you

I would also begin to speculate the following: Not all sugars are the same. There are different types of sugars, and at least two different types of fructose. The different sugars can have a different tendency to stick to the teeth, and also have a different tendency to feed oral bacteria.

https://kkw.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Which-Sugars-Rot-Your-Teeth.pdf

The saliva of some primate species may also be more anti-bacterial than that of humans, and even other parts of their diet may be anti-bacterial.

The tooth shape of these primates is also different than humans, many of them may have fewer crevasses for sugar to get stuck in and bacteria to thrive. Due to their highly fibrous diets, the animals teeth may also be getting a cleaning as they eat.

Gorillas stick to a mainly vegetarian diet, feeding on stems, bamboo shoots and fruits. Western lowland gorillas, however, also have an appetite for termites and ants, and break open termite nests to eat the larvae.
If the gorilla is eating heavy amounts of stems and bamboo shoots, these likely clean the teeth as they eat. It would be like chewing a toothbrush, like mentioned earlier in the thread many human cultures use chewing sticks for excellent teeth cleaning and anti-bacterial properties.
 
And lastly, their lifespans are shorter. They may have tooth decay, but it doesn't show up or cause significant problems in most animals by the time they reach their natural lifespan.
 
 
 

 

 

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Posted : 06/05/2020 6:25 pm
Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @admin
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @polholmes

Toothpaste is cheap as hell, and when I was living alone a tube took me around 3 months to finish. I don't think there's any reason NOT to use it, it would be different if it was £100 a tube, at the minimum, you get fresher breath and perhaps slightly whiter teeth

 Why wild apes that don't brush teeth and eat fructose all day long have barely any cavities?

Something I found:

Long-tailed macaques practice good dental hygiene, researchers found when they followed a troupe around a coastal village on Great Nicobar Island in the eastern Indian Ocean, New Scientist reports. The primates keep their teeth clean with improvised floss—bird feathers, coconut fibers, blades of grass, nylon thread—and are the third macaque species found to do so. To get the most of their tools, the monkeys even plan ahead by tearing apart nylon threads before using them. Flossing is just one of the ways our evolutionary cousins use tools effectively, the researchers report in Primates

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/11/monkeys-may-have-better-dental-hygiene-you

I would also begin to speculate the following: Not all sugars are the same. There are different types of sugars, and at least two different types of fructose. The different sugars can have a different tendency to stick to the teeth, and also have a different tendency to feed oral bacteria.

https://kkw.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Which-Sugars-Rot-Your-Teeth.pdf

The saliva of some primate species may also be more anti-bacterial than that of humans, and even other parts of their diet may be anti-bacterial.

The tooth shape of these primates is also different than humans, many of them may have fewer crevasses for sugar to get stuck in and bacteria to thrive. Due to their highly fibrous diets, the animals teeth may also be getting a cleaning as they eat.

Gorillas stick to a mainly vegetarian diet, feeding on stems, bamboo shoots and fruits. Western lowland gorillas, however, also have an appetite for termites and ants, and break open termite nests to eat the larvae.
If the gorilla is eating heavy amounts of stems and bamboo shoots, these likely clean the teeth as they eat. It would be like chewing a toothbrush, like mentioned earlier in the thread many human cultures use chewing sticks for excellent teeth cleaning and anti-bacterial properties.
 
And lastly, their lifespans are shorter. They may have tooth decay, but it doesn't show up or cause significant problems in most animals by the time they reach their natural lifespan.
 
 
 

 

 

Yep and I suggested to remove food from mouth with water and toothbroosh. As for the age, children have many cavities as well, in fact I thought children were the dominant demographic of cavities, no? 

Prehistoric humans have had good teeth on their skulls, there was tooth decay from excessive chewing, but the teeth looked in great condition still, with good enamel. They might have cleaned their teeth, but you can do the same with tongue and saliva.

Fructose is listed as damaging to teeth in the article you linked, the main sugar in fruit.

I think plaque protects the teeth. I've always had cavities and pain from eating green acidic apples, yet when I stopped brushing and using toothpaste all together it all went away. No cavities, no pain anymore when eating apples. There's a permanent yellow layer on my teeth and it's not causing any bacterial growth at all. The cavities I did have and didn't have treated don't hurt anymore at all as well. It's been 4 years since I last used toothpaste, not a single cavity yet, before that I had at least 1 every year.

It's the same with shampoo, stopped using shampoo and hair became less fatty and less smelling. Makes no sense, but it works like that. It's almost as if you push to one side, nature pushes to the other. Remove fat from hair? Your scalp will produce extra. Make the pH higher with toothpaste(there's sodium-hydroxide in it)? Maybe your saliva will become more acidic and even cause cavities eventually.

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Posted : 06/05/2020 6:54 pm
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus

Whats your opinion on flossing?

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Posted : 06/05/2020 8:06 pm
Yusu
 Yusu
Trusted Member

I stopped using fluoride toothpaste from 14 to 16

My teeth got deminerilazed with white spots...

But still I don't like fluoride and hope for REAL alternatives

 

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Posted : 07/05/2020 12:07 am
BarretMaxilla
New Member

Prophet Muhammad SAW used to use this stick called a miswak many times a day and their teeth were perfect

 

it's the modern diet that's the problem. high sugars, artfiicial colour and flavours especially fizzy drinks. GMO foods i believe make the breath smell bad etc

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Posted : 07/05/2020 3:48 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

@barretmaxilla

Precisely. Comparing our diets to the ones of prehistoric man, Romans and  chimpanzees just because they are all primates is not logical. Apples and oranges as I said earlier. Even the teeth structure, saliva content seems different from what TGW showed us.

If anyone wants a truly fair comparison, find a (modern) community of people where they use water only for prevention of cavities, dimineralization and general dental health vs. the general public of the world which use (fluoride/xylitol/calcium/phosphate but not herbal) toothpastes.

I have not heard of any community on Earth that only uses water for prevention of cavities or dimineralization but I would indeed like to hear about them if they do exist.

Speaking from my experience, I have never had a single cavity nor required any fillings in my life and I have always used fluoride toothpaste with all sorts of junk food. I'm sure I would have fared horribly worse if I had not used fluoride toothpaste and resorted to something like plain water.

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Posted : 07/05/2020 5:15 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @barretmaxilla

Prophet Muhammad SAW used to use this stick called a miswak many times a day and their teeth were perfect

 

it's the modern diet that's the problem. high sugars, artfiicial colour and flavours especially fizzy drinks. GMO foods i believe make the breath smell bad etc

And yet chimpanzees eat fructose all day long, which is shown to be damaging to teeth, with no problem? If just brushing is enough, then toothpaste is a scam. Yet today, with so many people brushing their teeth, they still have cavities. Again, doesn't add up, while we do consume acidic diet, the fructose that chimps eat also create an acidic environment.

 

 

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Posted : 07/05/2020 10:34 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @harrykanemaxilla

@auxiliarus

Whats your opinion on flossing?

I dunno, it's probably good for cleaning popcorn out of your teeth.

 

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Posted : 07/05/2020 10:34 am
BarretMaxilla
New Member

@auxiliarus

human teeth isn't the same

 

also modern humans drink coffee. tea, alcohol and the vitamin k2 intake is low 

which results in weaker bones,teeth and less white teeth in general

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Posted : 07/05/2020 10:48 am
Progress
Member Moderator

I gave up fluoride a couple of years ago and according to my dentist the few cavities I have have not progressed any further since then. I wash and rinse with sea salt and xylitol, and periodically just water. As for the sugar debate, whereas most fruits and starches do not leave a biofilm on my teeth, white sugar and bananas do. I suspect than in fruits the sugars are bound to other ions or molecules to an extent that makes it more difficult for the bacteria to feed on it.

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Posted : 07/05/2020 10:54 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

@progress

I think it's because of the sea salt and xylitol more so than the absence of fluoride. Harmful bacteria die after digestion of xylitol while the good ones don't.

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Posted : 07/05/2020 11:06 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @barretmaxilla

@auxiliarus

human teeth isn't the same

 

also modern humans drink coffee. tea, alcohol and the vitamin k2 intake is low 

which results in weaker bones,teeth and less white teeth in general

And how does toothpaste help against all that though in comparison to plaque?

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Posted : 07/05/2020 11:27 am
Vyr9
 Vyr9
New Member

In my experience diet has a bigger effect on tooth health than brushing does. In the last 5 years I haven't been brushing my teeth very regularly, sometimes once a week other times every other week etc. but the dentists always praise my teeth and talk about how strong and beautiful they are.

In my earlier years of researching nutrition I remember some people talking about being able to restore cavities by being on a "low toxin" diet. The toxins they are refering to are compounds like anti-nutrients found in plants. Plants are alive and have genes. Anything with genes wants to reproduce but you can't do that if you're digested so they produce these compounds to protect themselves. More ancient cooking methods like fermentation tend to reduce these compounds in my experience.

Anti-nutrients like oxalates (spinach, kale, potatoes) can bind to minerals like calcium. Does this affect teeth? I don't know but probably.

Past Diet: Vegetables, fruits, meat and other animal products. 600mg/day of calcium before supplement (50% of RDA)

Result: Teeth sensitivity and pain. Solved by taking a calcium supplement (don't remember how much)

Current Diet: Meat and animal products. 100-150mg/day of calcium (approx. 10% of RDA)

Result: No teeth sensitivity and no pain.

I'm not necessearily telling anyone to stop eating plants, what I'm saying is brushing every day or once a month during these periods had no noticable effect on my teeth whilst the diet definitely did. Regarding my experience with bad breath it's the same. I also think it doesn't matter how healthy you are, everyone has bad breath in the sense that your saliva will smell bad when it dries. Therefore I don't think licking your arm is a good test but maybe toothpaste would help with this if you're concerned, I don't know.

 

 

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Posted : 08/05/2020 2:53 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @vyr9

Regarding my experience with bad breath it's the same. I also think it doesn't matter how healthy you are, everyone has bad breath in the sense that your saliva will smell bad when it dries.

Bad breath most of the time is because of an improperly cleaned tongue as the posterior of the tongue is a breeding ground for most harmful bacteria in the mouth. I can attest to this from my personal experience since I didn't brush my tongue properly as a small kid and had a somewhat unpleasant breath. It went away as soon as I started brushing my tongue.

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Posted : 08/05/2020 3:07 pm