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Could the Vivos DNA potentially be seen as a "mewing aid"?

toomer
Estimable Member

In a recent video that Vivos put into their online repository over in Vimeo, one of the staff members says that one of the Doctors he was working with [presumably a Vivos or Vivos-affiliated Doctor] basically said "you could probably achieve this yourself [without the appliance] if you just put your tongue up against the roof of your mouth and push forward 1,000 times per day, and then 1,000 times per night" -- you can see it at roughly 37m30s in the video here: https://vimeo.com/435160643

To me, that basically made me think of the DNA Appliance as a "mewing aid" in a way.  And this is especially important for some of us out there that have had some collapse in our upper archway and are well below 38mm inter-molar width and/or we have slight tongue ties ... we just can't really get our tongues fully up into the roofs of our mouths anymore (if ever).  Mewing isn't really an option for us.

Understanding how Vivos has designed their appliance (as opposed to something like a Schwartz expander) is important to understand how it may function as a mewing aid.  As I believe to be the case from patient reports - the appliance is actually NOT making contact with the roof of the mouth at all times.  There is normally a very small amount of space between the top of the appliance and the roof of the mouth.  When you swallow, your tongue action in swallowing presses the ENTIRE appliance up against the roof of the mouth for a bit, and then releases (creating a bit of suction, and stretching at the suture a little bit).  

Likewise, the springs that are touching the backs of the front teeth are only doing so with extremely light forces most of the time, but when you swallow more pressure is applied by the springs temporarily and then released.  The amount of pressure the springs create during that swallow action is (presumably) designed to be similar to the amount of pressure the tongue would place on the teeth during a normal swallow.  

All of this this would appear to be having the Vivos appliance working as an aid to emulate a proper tongue/maxilla/teeth interaction during every swallow ... 1,000+ times a day ... for 9-18 months.

Putting it another way, I am almost now viewing the Vivos DNA appliance as a "prosthetic tongue" in a way (this is where Vivos comes up with "biomimetics" or "biomimicry", it's "mimicking" a properly-functioning tongue).  That's how the body likely perceives the appliance it in terms of signaling.  And then it just so happens, that the body notices that this "prosthetic tongue" keeps expanding in 0.25mm increments for some reason every few days, and so it adapts (remodels, creates new bone) and moves the teeth on its own in doing so ("orthopedic" movement of teeth, instead of "orthodontic" movement).  In other videos, Vivos has presented data where they indicate that the bone volume of the entire maxilla has grown by about 2 cubic centimeters overall after their treatment protocol - that's roughly the equivalent of a pair of six-sided dice.

So if that might be true, then perhaps focusing singularly on the suture is these discussions ... focusing on one tree instead of the entire forest (the whole maxilla, including its suture).  

Thoughts? I will admit to having not studied "mewing" much, because I don't think given my arches/bite, it's a possibility for me to even try.

 

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Topic starter Posted : 05/07/2020 3:01 pm
Thomas22
Estimable Member

Prosthetic tongue is a good way of putting it. I like that. 

A device does take the work out of it, and in my experience it makes starting much easier. 

For the first two months of treatment I simply didn’t have enough room for my tongue. I couldn’t have mewed properly if I tried.  

The lower jaw would be my question though. How many changes occur automatically as the upper remodels? Do we need lower devices?

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Posted : 05/07/2020 3:31 pm
Thomas22
Estimable Member

For the record, I couldn't do what they propose in the video. I just don't have that kind of single minded discipline.

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Posted : 05/07/2020 3:56 pm
toomer
Estimable Member

@thomas22

Some might need lower devices I suppose, that's why Vivos has mRNA which can create some advancement and gets linked together with rubber bands to the DNA at night - in theory moving the two together bringing both the maxilla and mandible forward in unison (in theory).  And the mRNA has a midline expansion screw as well in some configurations, so it can help widen if necessary.  And then of course to a certain degree, the mandible will naturally follow what the maxilla is doing.

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Topic starter Posted : 05/07/2020 4:10 pm
toomer
Estimable Member

Here's an additional thought.  Would love to know if I'm wrong on this.

Assumption: The human body (at practically any age) can create, delete, or repair any bone material anywhere in the body - whether there are sutures in the bone (cranial) or not (everywhere else).  For sake of catchy mnemonics let's call it the "Three R's" - remodel (create), resorb (delete), or repair.

So repair is pretty straightforward.  I got a fibula stress fracture late last year, because I did too many miles running and jogging ... and the load I placed on my legs exceeded the pace of my body's own remodeling ability.  So I got inflammation and pain and a fracture, but 3 months in a boot and no running and my body repaired it.

Resorb is also readily seen pretty regularly.  For example, as I understand it ... if you lose a tooth, in not too long of a time the bony material of the tooth socket will disappear.  Your body has determined you no longer need it (no tooth there anymore), so it resorbs it.

Likewise - think about those contestants on a show like The Biggest Loser.  The men go from being like 400-500lbs down to 200.  At the end of that process, they don't still have the ribcage of a 400lb person ... their skeletal structure has decreased relative to the lesser body mass.  Their chest measurements are smaller.  You don't get a smaller chest width if your ribcage stays the same size.  Another example of resorb.  And that's in bones without sutures.  And that's taking place over like 3-6 months.

And then remodeling, think about those Biggest Loser contestants again ... back when they were in their early 20's and maybe they were only 250lbs.  By the time they get on the show and they're weighing in at 500lbs, they don't still have a ribcage of a 250lb person, it would squeeze their lungs to death.  When the body sensed it needed bigger ribs to hold the lungs - maybe from pressure signals picked up by the lungs growing larger - it created more rib bone in response.  That's remodeling.  And again, this is happening in bones that do not have sutures.

So if the body can literally repair, resorb, or remodel any bony mass anywhere ... and we know that the body may have resorbed some of its own maxillary bone leading to archway collapses ... then why can't we trigger the reverse process?  Find a way to convince the body it should remodel and create some more bone.

Sure, you can split the suture ... that's one way to do it.  DOME absolutely gets more width.  But perhaps it's not the only way it can be done, if the body is able to expand and contract the shape of any of the bones in the body.

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Topic starter Posted : 05/07/2020 4:24 pm
Thomas22
Estimable Member
Posted by: @toomer

gets linked together with rubber bands

I haven’t seen this before - rubber bands?

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Posted : 05/07/2020 4:41 pm
Thomas22
Estimable Member
Posted by: @toomer

Sure, you can split the suture

I think that’s probably a crude, and ultimately less effective solution. Harnessing the bodies own growing process can only achieve more natural and perhaps more complete results. 

The trade off is time. 

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Posted : 05/07/2020 4:44 pm
toomer
Estimable Member
Posted by: @thomas22
Posted by: @toomer

gets linked together with rubber bands

 

I haven’t seen this before - rubber bands?

Have a look at this patient’s video - she mentions it: https://youtu.be/whLcXxcu2ks

(she takes about 10 minutes to get to the Vivos stuff, but she’s pretty funny)

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Topic starter Posted : 05/07/2020 5:03 pm