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Clenching impacting the maxilla, causing the jaw to swing forward (Bill Hang)

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cliffbars
(@cliffbars)
50+ Forum Posts

Watch this video with Dr Bill Hang talking about clenching/ molars in contact

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0ZRkXIBIpw

Interesting how he mentions that clenching will impact the maxilla upward and cause the jaw to swing forward. I find this to be true looking at myself. I clenched as a youngster, never had great oral posture, however my chin is still very forwards. I do NOT condone clenching, however, I think this goes to show again how our bodies can be constantly changed through various forces, including our facial form. 

Quote
Topic starter Posted : 07/12/2020 9:18 pm
cliffbars
(@cliffbars)
50+ Forum Posts

Honestly makes me think, is this what the Mews are alluding to regarding upward movement of the maxilla and swinging forward of the jaw, shortening the face. Just a thought though. Interested to know what everyone thinks.

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 07/12/2020 9:27 pm
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts

There is good clenching and bad clenching. In terms of posture, engaging the masseters is never good, whereas engaging the temporalii almost always is, since the former doesn't have any postural function whereas the latter does:

 

mpHyB0w
EfievtV
ba3z7aZ

Recently an user on Reddit shared the unfortunate changes he had seen from constant clenching of the masseters. His jawline had become very bent:

23ff23

In contrast, another user was made to wear a bite appliance that encouraged temporalii engagement. Her mid-face saw a clear improvement, with the zygos popping out, nasal position improving and jaw prominence increasing:

The difference, though subtle, is similar to the one highlihted in the studies I shared ealier in another thread:

56i5i5 2

 

Screenshot 46

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/12/2020 11:13 pm
Sean liked
cliffbars
(@cliffbars)
50+ Forum Posts

@progress How do you go about provoking postural temporalis activation? 

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 07/12/2020 11:23 pm
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @cliffbars

@progress How do you go about provoking postural temporalis activation? 

Elevate your mandible so as to attain molar contact. You may have to use a slight backward vector too. Put your thumbs on your masseters and the rest of your fingers on your temporalii and ensure that only the temporalii activate. Then clench a little harder and move your head around, you'll see how the mandible stabilizes the cervical spine.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/12/2020 11:33 pm
Sean and Snailgoo89 liked
DegiBlaze
(@basim)
50+ Forum Posts

Do you think temporalis chewing and posture also encourages temporal bone movement forwards. Because I believe this is a side effect of moving the maxilla forwards to match the mandible and gain facial upswing and harmony of the face 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/12/2020 4:08 am
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @basim

Do you think temporalis chewing and posture also encourages temporal bone movement forwards. Because I believe this is a side effect of moving the maxilla forwards to match the mandible and gain facial upswing and harmony of the face 

Considering the direction of the muscle fibers in temporalis, it's possible. Am I misunderstanding or do you see this as a negative thing?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/12/2020 4:52 am
DegiBlaze
(@basim)
50+ Forum Posts

This is me

630AFC8C DDF4 407C A094 50754318CF59

I am Mewing very with a strong vacuum. But you can clearly see that both my maxilla and mandible is recessed and I want forward growth and CCW rotation. However as a recessed I have been chewing with a masseter pattern and I see no changes for a while. So I wonder if Temporalis could work, but I worry that my palate would go backwards and my mandible will still be far back compared to the maxilla. So I wonder as a recessed person. Should I go masseter or temporalis chewing for forward growth and CCW rotation? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/12/2020 5:40 am
cliffbars
(@cliffbars)
50+ Forum Posts

@basim How do you do temporalis vs masseter pattern chewing/ what are the differences?

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 08/12/2020 5:46 am
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @basim

This is me

630AFC8C DDF4 407C A094 50754318CF59

I am Mewing very with a strong vacuum. But you can clearly see that both my maxilla and mandible is recessed and I want forward growth and CCW rotation. However as a recessed I have been chewing with a masseter pattern and I see no changes for a while. So I wonder if Temporalis could work, but I worry that my palate would go backwards and my mandible will still be far back compared to the maxilla. So I wonder as a recessed person. Should I go masseter or temporalis chewing for forward growth and CCW rotation? 

Masseters alone are unlikely to be able to cause CCW rotation, because they are attached to the same structures that you are trying to rotate. You would pointlessly end up pulling the zygos and the gonion towards each other without achieving much else (apart from increase in mandbilar and zygomatic mass). As for the temporalii, I can't speak for chewing, but postural activation of the temporalii is not going to pull your palate backwards. I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, since after all you are biting backwards, but take note of how the temporalii sit on top of sphenoid and the sphenoid-frontal-temporal sutures:

Fossatemporalis

So what will happen with temporalis activation is not just about the palate being pulled backwards as it first seems, but instead, at the same time the mandible is -- by using the maxille as leverage -- going to be pulling the sphenoid/cranial base downwards by the temporalis... the total outcome of which will be an internal rotation of sorts, something akin to what is illustrated in the following files:

24g2g

 

In this sense it's fascinating how the mandible is equipped to both compress and unwind the craniofacial complex.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/12/2020 6:51 am
auxiliary and liked
DegiBlaze
(@basim)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @basim

This is me

630AFC8C DDF4 407C A094 50754318CF59

I am Mewing very with a strong vacuum. But you can clearly see that both my maxilla and mandible is recessed and I want forward growth and CCW rotation. However as a recessed I have been chewing with a masseter pattern and I see no changes for a while. So I wonder if Temporalis could work, but I worry that my palate would go backwards and my mandible will still be far back compared to the maxilla. So I wonder as a recessed person. Should I go masseter or temporalis chewing for forward growth and CCW rotation? 

Masseters alone are unlikely to be able to cause CCW rotation, because they are attached to the same structures that you are trying to rotate. You would pointlessly end up pulling the zygos and the gonion towards each other without achieving much else (apart from increase in mandbilar and zygomatic mass). As for the temporalii, I can't speak for chewing, but postural activation of the temporalii is not going to pull your palate backwards. I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, since after all you are biting backwards, but take note of how the temporalii sit on top of sphenoid and the sphenoid-frontal-temporal sutures:

Fossatemporalis

So what will happen with temporalis activation is not just about the palate being pulled backwards as it first seems, but instead, at the same time the mandible is -- by using the maxille as leverage -- going to be pulling the sphenoid/cranial base downwards by the temporalis... the total outcome of which will be an internal rotation of sorts, something akin to what is illustrated in the following files:

24g2g

 

In this sense it's fascinating how the mandible is equipped to both compress and unwind the craniofacial complex.

So how do I activate the temporal vector more than the Masseter vector posturally. I don’t know how to since I have an overbite which makes it very hard to know. But when I hard mew specifically, I notice that my digastric muscles are activated and leaves a small bump on my hyoid and chin and raising the back 3rd pushes my mandible forward to create space for the tongue to raise up on the palate. Also the more I chin tuck, the more my teeth wants to clench and my masseter and temporalis fire out stronger. But how do I do it posturally, do I use more of the incisors or anterior teeth pressure since it’s on the temporal vector or something else with the lips or moving my mandible backward to get my molars touching, etc?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/12/2020 7:42 am
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @basim

or moving my mandible backward to get my molars touching, etc?

This one. Be watchful for TMJ/ear pain while doing this though, I'm not sure if there are some occlusal conditions that would contraindicate temporalis activation (you may also feel other harmless sensations near the ear, actual TMJ pain would feel as if it came from inside the ear). 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/12/2020 8:26 am
Bogdar
(@bogdar)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress

There is good clenching and bad clenching. In terms of posture, engaging the masseters is never good, whereas engaging the temporalii almost always is, since the former doesn't have any postural function whereas the latter does:

 

mpHyB0w
EfievtV
ba3z7aZ

Hey, where do you get these quotes from ? I might be interested in the lecture. Thanks

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/12/2020 8:44 pm
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @bogdar

 

Hey, where do you get these quotes from ? I might be interested in the lecture. Thanks

Sure, they come from an excellent article series written by Portland TMJ clinic: http://portlandtmjclinic.com/etiology/introduction . Hover the mouse over the 'etiology' tab in order to find all the chapters.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 08/12/2020 9:14 pm
ThaGangsta, Loliboly, Bogdar and 1 people liked
Bogdar
(@bogdar)
50+ Forum Posts

@progress

Wow, wasn't expecting such quality content tho. Thanks a lot !

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/12/2020 2:16 am
ThaGangsta
(@mafiagang)
50+ Forum Posts

@progress

In this case what would you recommend for a deep bite with a long mid face and a short lower third?  Mine seems to be this way so maybe strengthening the temporallis then holding a slight gap in molars should do?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/12/2020 11:07 am
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @thagangsta

@progress

In this case what would you recommend for a deep bite with a long mid face and a short lower third?  Mine seems to be this way so maybe strengthening the temporallis then holding a slight gap in molars should do?

That's a start. Though simply strengthening the temporalii may not necessarily result in change, since the matter is less about hypertrophying the muscle and more about maintaining sustained tension (hence why John Mew recommends his patients to keep teeth in contact for at least 8 hours a day). There are people who have chewed enough to make their temporalii blow up to comically large proportions without having achieved any change, likely because for the rest of the time their jaw is slacking.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 10/12/2020 6:56 pm
DegiBlaze
(@basim)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @thagangsta

@progress

In this case what would you recommend for a deep bite with a long mid face and a short lower third?  Mine seems to be this way so maybe strengthening the temporallis then holding a slight gap in molars should do?

That's a start. Though simply strengthening the temporalii may not necessarily result in change, since the matter is less about hypertrophying the muscle and more about maintaining sustained tension (hence why John Mew recommends his patients to keep teeth in contact for at least 8 hours a day). There are people who have chewed enough to make their temporalii blow up to comically large proportions without having achieved any change, likely because for the rest of the time their jaw is slacking.

For me with a deep bite in the back of my molars and overbite in the front. How do I move my mandible backwards if I can’t. I can move it forward since that allows me to have the tongue raised up and clenched really hard with a chin tuck. Maybe I am activating the temporalis through the digastric muscles to the temporal bone or I just have maintain 8-16 hours of teeth contact to get results and change my chewing with increased ripping and cutting with the incisiors and chewing harder with the candies and premolars to have more maxillary movement overtime.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2020 7:35 pm
Meowxilla
(@meowxilla)
100+ Forum Posts

@cliffbars

Even without molar contact i feel temporalis activation with toung chewing. 

So to inform you on general ideas i have found.

OMC - Masseters and temporalis activation

CMC - Primarilly masseters with small temporalis activation

Tounge chewing - Temporalis activation , moral contact not required. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/12/2020 9:42 pm
TheBeastPanda
(@thebeastpanda)
100+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress

There is good clenching and bad clenching. In terms of posture, engaging the masseters is never good, whereas engaging the temporalii almost always is, since the former doesn't have any postural function whereas the latter does:

 

mpHyB0w
EfievtV
ba3z7aZ

Recently an user on Reddit shared the unfortunate changes he had seen from constant clenching of the masseters. His jawline had become very bent:

23ff23

In contrast, another user was made to wear a bite appliance that encouraged temporalii engagement. Her mid-face saw a clear improvement, with the zygos popping out, nasal position improving and jaw prominence increasing:

The difference, though subtle, is similar to the one highlihted in the studies I shared ealier in another thread:

56i5i5 2

 

Screenshot 46

 

 

 Interesting stuff, how can one make sure they're engaging the temporalis instead of the masseters

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 1:42 am
TheBeastPanda
(@thebeastpanda)
100+ Forum Posts

@progress Sorry if this question sounds a bit ignorant but what is the temporalii and how can I activate and strengthen it. From what im getting you're saying you shouldn't be activating the masseters at rest and you shouldn't be clenching which can cause both functional and aesthetic issues, please correct me if I'm wrong.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 1:47 am
TheBeastPanda
(@thebeastpanda)
100+ Forum Posts

@meowxilla SO do you recommend OMC or CMC.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 1:47 am
TheBeastPanda
(@thebeastpanda)
100+ Forum Posts

@progress I have been chewing heavily for the past few months but I haven't achieved my desired results, which are more forward growth, a wide palate, since I have a pretty narrow palate, and wider cheekbones and better infraorbitals and more CCW rotation, which are my goals, how can I acheive that. Also does chewing widen the cheekbones, if your post correct me if I'm wrong, but i recall u saying the opposite. And lastly, how could I get the mandible to swing up.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 1:49 am
Meowxilla
(@meowxilla)
100+ Forum Posts

@thebeastpanda

OMC around 45min-1h a day

30-60min tounge chewing.

I am experimenting with tissue chewing to potentially reduce my overbite.

Temporalis is harder to activate. Blue circle is where you should place your fingers, now chew on molars and feel temporalis moving.

Do same with tounge chewing and you will see that it activates temporalis even without moral contact.

Temporalis chewing should give you weider cheekbones.

However i think that balanced masseteres chewing should make rammus bigger, longer , reduce gonial angle. That won't happen overnight. Possibly 1-2 years of balanced chewing. 

temporalis

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 2:01 am
TheBeastPanda
(@thebeastpanda)
100+ Forum Posts

@meowxilla Quick question, wait so how does one temporalis chew, by putting their hands on the temporalis and chewing, or what? I'm confused, also if the cheekbones get wider does that mean the palate gets wider. My midface is long and narrow and I have a convex face so how can I induce CCW rotation and get more forward growth, I'm a young adoloscent btw. Also how can you ensure there is a healthy balance between temporalis and masseter chewing? Also I noticed chewing just blows up my masseters, and it gives the illusion of a lower gonial angle, it hasn;t really changed bone for me which is what im after.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 2:05 am
TheBeastPanda
(@thebeastpanda)
100+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @cliffbars

@progress How do you go about provoking postural temporalis activation? 

Elevate your mandible so as to attain molar contact. You may have to use a slight backward vector too. Put your thumbs on your masseters and the rest of your fingers on your temporalii and ensure that only the temporalii activate. Then clench a little harder and move your head around, you'll see how the mandible stabilizes the cervical spine.

 How does placing your thumbs on the masseters, then the rest of your fingers on the temporalis induce temporalii activation? I'm confused.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 2:16 am
Meowxilla
(@meowxilla)
100+ Forum Posts

@thebeastpanda

Just put hands so you find what is temporalis and how to activate, you will feel muscle contracting and being relaxed as you chew. It's only for your understanding. You don't need to hold your hands there. 

Temporalis chewing will make cheekbones wider.

Mewing and hard mewing should push all theeth apart thus making your palate weider.

By chewing you can push theeth into gums thus eliminiating gummy smile.

CCW rotation is something we all want. I think from chewing alone it's not achivable, you need to mew also.

Bone won't change overnight, you are probably only cheewing with massetres since you don't know what even temporalis is. That's why i given you example where you can put your hands to find it.

If you are around 16-18 you still have good chance for some bone movement.

 

Try squizing chewing gum with your tounge onto roof of your palate. It's mainly temporalis active pattern. It will help you to have stronger tounge for mewing and stronger temporalis.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 2:18 am
TheBeastPanda
(@thebeastpanda)
100+ Forum Posts

@meowxilla I appreciate the detailed reply mate, im actually 14, wait I already knew what the temporalis was and everything, but how does one chewing with the temporalis and focus on a temporalis chewing pattern. Also my IMW is in the 30;s, im not sure if mewing will give me good change in a resonable time period? Thoughts on mse? and like Project alluded to, how can I activate the TEMPORALII as it has postural function and not the masseters. Also can you explain the science on how temporalis chewing  induces wider cheekbones? I'm about to start chewing so can you give me any tips before I start?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 2:23 am
Meowxilla
(@meowxilla)
100+ Forum Posts

@thebeastpanda

Don't know about science. For 14 i think MSE is too early. You are lucky that you know this at 14. At 20 you will look awesome.

Start chewing 30 mins a day OMC at home. Do tounge chewing 15-20 minutes , this will activate temporalis only and also strenghten tounge for mewing.

Try chin tuck most of the time. (no sure about this one)

Use only tounge to swallow. Collect saliva from bottom and then push it down your throat.

Try to do suction hold if you aren't speaking/eating. I don't know how to do it. I have overbite i think that's reason i never will be able to do it correctly.

That's pretty much it without any extreme actions. All of this is safe apart from chewing A lot , like 90+mins a day. Some people regret their chewing marathons.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 2:31 am
TheBeastPanda
(@thebeastpanda)
100+ Forum Posts

@meowxilla Where did you lean that temporalis chewing widens the cheekbones? Really, I would look awesome at 20?!!! Why do you think I'm too young for an MSE, for chewing should I focus on temporalis or masseter chewing pattern.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 2:39 am
Meowxilla
(@meowxilla)
100+ Forum Posts

@thebeastpanda

Idk , that's just my opinion. MSE seems like desperate move when your bones are already fused and hard. Astro sky was mewing for 5 years and started at 18. Got pretty good results even in mid 20s. 

You starting this young should have drastic changes which we all are yearning for on this forum. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/12/2020 2:43 am
Robbie343
(@robbie343)
100+ Forum Posts

@progress

Where can I find the case of that woman who used the bite appliance for temporal engagement? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/12/2020 10:22 am
WickedFinger
(@wickedfinger)
10+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress

 

56i5i5 2

 

Screenshot 46

 

 

What's the source of these pictures, can you share a link of the article.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/12/2020 3:06 pm
auxiliary
(@auxiliarus)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @wickedfinger
Posted by: @progress

 

56i5i5 2

 

Screenshot 46

 

 

What's the source of these pictures, can you share a link of the article.

 

Look at the masseter vs temporalis thread. You'll find it there.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/12/2020 12:03 am
auxiliary
(@auxiliarus)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @basim

This is me

630AFC8C DDF4 407C A094 50754318CF59

I am Mewing very with a strong vacuum. But you can clearly see that both my maxilla and mandible is recessed and I want forward growth and CCW rotation. However as a recessed I have been chewing with a masseter pattern and I see no changes for a while. So I wonder if Temporalis could work, but I worry that my palate would go backwards and my mandible will still be far back compared to the maxilla. So I wonder as a recessed person. Should I go masseter or temporalis chewing for forward growth and CCW rotation? 

Masseters alone are unlikely to be able to cause CCW rotation, because they are attached to the same structures that you are trying to rotate. You would pointlessly end up pulling the zygos and the gonion towards each other without achieving much else (apart from increase in mandbilar and zygomatic mass). As for the temporalii, I can't speak for chewing, but postural activation of the temporalii is not going to pull your palate backwards. I know, it sounds counter-intuitive, since after all you are biting backwards, but take note of how the temporalii sit on top of sphenoid and the sphenoid-frontal-temporal sutures:

Fossatemporalis

So what will happen with temporalis activation is not just about the palate being pulled backwards as it first seems, but instead, at the same time the mandible is -- by using the maxille as leverage -- going to be pulling the sphenoid/cranial base downwards by the temporalis... the total outcome of which will be an internal rotation of sorts, something akin to what is illustrated in the following files:

24g2g

 

In this sense it's fascinating how the mandible is equipped to both compress and unwind the craniofacial complex.

IMO your theory is incomplete, your view on the temporalis is far too positive, but you're definitely on to something. I've tried both temporalis and masseter clenching.

Masseter teeth clenching lead to:

  • Shorter lower third because of teeth getting pushed in. Teeth get unevenly pushed in, with the back teeth getting pushed in the most.
  • Outward rotation of the face like in your gif, which is undesirable. This causes the ramus to rotate inwards and the gonion to move upwards and backwards.
  • There is an increase of bone thickness.

Temporalis teeth clenching lead to:

  • Ridicilous zygo ballooning.
  • TMJ/Ear pain/Ear popping/Jaw pain/Headaches.
  • Upper teeth moving backwards, lower teeth moving forward, jaw moving backward(because of lower teeth moving forward relative to the mandible).

 

I think we should at least consider muscular tension without teeth contact, simply resisting gravity. This is where posture makes a big difference, looking downward forces you to use temporalis, while looking upward forces you to use masseter to prevent your jaw from dropping.

 

And there is also of course the fact that temporalis and masseters aren't the only muscles that support mastication or facial posture. Here's a list of mastication muscles that can impact the face:

  1. The exterior temporalis, causes strong upward and backward movement of the jaw.
  2. The interior temporalis aka sphenomandibularis, causes moderate upward and very weak forward movement of the jaw.
  3. The lateral pterygoids, cause strong forward movement of the jaw.
  4. The inner pterygoids, cause moderate upward and weak forward movement of the jaw. Jaw moves mostly upward in the back.
  5. The superficial masseter, causes strong upward movement and very weak forward movement of the jaw. Jaw moves upward mostly in the back.
  6. The deep masseter, causes strong upward movement of the back of the jaw.

 

I think when considering posture that simply resists gravity without teeth contact then it's likely that using the interior and exterior temporalis for posture will produce the most CCW rotation, while the pterygoids will probably just pull the maxilla backwards, causing CW rotation in the long-term.

I don't think the masseters are involved much in weak force posture, though definitely in clenching they do.

 

BTW it's a known medical phenomena where someone with bruxism ends up with a totally messed up gonion.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/12/2020 12:54 am
Physx-Times
(@physx-times)
New Member
Posted by: @progress

There is good clenching and bad clenching. In terms of posture, engaging the masseters is never good, whereas engaging the temporalii almost always is, since the former doesn't have any postural function whereas the latter does:

 

mpHyB0w
EfievtV
ba3z7aZ

Recently an user on Reddit shared the unfortunate changes he had seen from constant clenching of the masseters. His jawline had become very bent:

23ff23

In contrast, another user was made to wear a bite appliance that encouraged temporalii engagement. Her mid-face saw a clear improvement, with the zygos popping out, nasal position improving and jaw prominence increasing:

The difference, though subtle, is similar to the one highlihted in the studies I shared ealier in another thread:

56i5i5 2

 

Screenshot 46

 

 

Hi, Can you give me the link to the guy whose ramus is receding? Couldn't find it on reddit. Exact the same thing is happening to me. I don't clench my jaw but my ramus is receding just like this. I'm gonna cry 🙁

ReplyQuote
Posted : 28/12/2020 11:09 am
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts

@robbie343 https://old.reddit.com/r/TMJ/comments/hyg3lw/tmj_treatment_changed_my_jawface_shape/

@physx-times https://old.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/k6q6nw/this_is_what_listening_to_brett_mavericks/

@auxiliarus Appreciate your input

Posted by: @auxiliarus
  • TMJ/Ear pain/Ear popping/Jaw pain/Headaches.
  • Upper teeth moving backwards, lower teeth moving forward, jaw moving backward(because of lower teeth moving forward relative to the mandible).

 

Are these your experiences or hypotheses? On superficial level these would be expectable consequences. The ultimate resulting interaction of forces across the craniofacial complex may very well turn out to be more nuanced and multidimensional than this, however. Though at the present moment this is little more than an intuitive hunch. I don't grasp the full picture yet, so in that sense I admit to the incompleteness of my theory.

If you compare the direction of the muscle fibers in the temporalis with the insertion at the coronoid process and its spatial relation to the TMJ, the assumption that the mandible is going to move backward becomes a little less solid: the force that the mandible receives is not a linear backward force, but rather CCW-rotative. So likely the TMJ will act as a fulcrum, leveraging the jaws up in a way that decreases gonial angle and increases height of the ramus.

In any case, contrary to what could be expected, gentle temporal clenching has had a net positive effect on my TMJ. Surprisingly, the joint is feeling healthier now than it did back when the jaw was being jutted or the incisors kept in tip-to-tip incisor. There's less clicking of the joint while chewing too.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 29/12/2020 8:38 pm
auxiliary
(@auxiliarus)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress

@robbie343 https://old.reddit.com/r/TMJ/comments/hyg3lw/tmj_treatment_changed_my_jawface_shape/

@physx-times https://old.reddit.com/r/orthotropics/comments/k6q6nw/this_is_what_listening_to_brett_mavericks/

@auxiliarus Appreciate your input

Posted by: @auxiliarus
  • TMJ/Ear pain/Ear popping/Jaw pain/Headaches.
  • Upper teeth moving backwards, lower teeth moving forward, jaw moving backward(because of lower teeth moving forward relative to the mandible).

 

Are these your experiences or hypotheses? On superficial level these would be expectable consequences. The ultimate resulting interaction of forces across the craniofacial complex may very well turn out to be more nuanced and multidimensional than this, however. Though at the present moment this is little more than an intuitive hunch. I don't grasp the full picture yet, so in that sense I admit to the incompleteness of my theory.

If you compare the direction of the muscle fibers in the temporalis with the insertion at the coronoid process and its spatial relation to the TMJ, the assumption that the mandible is going to move backward becomes a little less solid: the force that the mandible receives is not a linear backward force, but rather CCW-rotative. So likely the TMJ will act as a fulcrum, leveraging the jaws up in a way that decreases gonial angle and increases height of the ramus.

In any case, contrary to what could be expected, gentle temporal clenching has had a net positive effect on my TMJ. Surprisingly, the joint is feeling healthier now than it did back when the jaw was being jutted or the incisors kept in tip-to-tip incisor. There's less clicking of the joint while chewing too.

There are my experiences.

"the assumption that the mandible is going to move backward becomes a little less solid"

Not assumption, but what I experienced. Also you're not making sense on the mandible, no ever claimed that simply because the mandible receives backwards force it will move backward, instead this is the logical thought of that conclusion:

1) When the temporalis is engaged, the jaw moves upwards and backwards. There is no way to individually control muscle fibers of one singular muscle head. The resultant effect is always the lower jaw moving backwards against the upper jaw. The resultant forces would be backwards for upper jaw and forwards for lower jaw.

2) Teeth are held by your gum tissue, the gum tissue and the soft bone around it is much more malleable than the hard bones of your face. The maxilla is also quite malleable, simply because the bone is very thin as evidenced by historical remains almost never having an intact maxilla.

3) Thus the upper teeth will move backward relative to the palate, even more so, the palate and the maxilla itself will move backward relative to the face. Also over time the teeth will get further pushed into gums, reducing lower face height.

The lower teeth will move forward! To maintain occlusion, the lower jaw will have to be retracted. Thus lower teeth being backward-set relative to the palate is ideal, though too much will cause a ridiculously long chin.

I ask you to reconsider bringing studies on muscle CSA as evidence as you did earlier, as it makes more sense that the shape effects muscle CSA and not the other way around. This is because the biggest muscle CSA only takes into account the upper 2D size of the muscle, the highest factor of muscle CSA being the length of the muscle, which is untrainable and is instead set by bone length(muscle fits bone, not the other way around).

So it makes very logical sense that big temporalis CSA is related to a big head.

Rather than looking at studies examining muscle CSA, you should look at studies examining muscle EMG and maybe muscle thickness.

In fact this study on muscular dystrophy directly contradicts almost everything that is said on this forum: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8760845/

The summary of the study is that muscle dystrophy correlated to to:

  • transversal overdevelopment
  • sagittal shortening of the dental arch
  • reduction of overbite and overjet
  • sagittal underdevelopment of the cranial, maxillary and mandibular base
  • retrusion of incisors
  • concave profile
  • increase in bizygomatic width
  • the enlargement of the hypotonic tongue, causes a transversal expansion of skull and dental arches. This expansion was strongly pronounced in the lower jaw; we invariably observed a posterior crossbite.
  • Upper facial height was increased

 

So resting your tongue on your lower jaw might actually lead to expansion of the dental arches and the whole skull! This makes sense, because the jaw is connected to the zygos, any expansion to the lower jaw will expand the zygos, which will expand the upper jaw and the whole head!

What's unexpected is that sagittal underdevelopment still somehow led to a concave profile!

So what's going on here? Well actually, their maxilla is deficient, as evidenced by the retrusion of the incisors. So I doubt they'd look good even though they have everything the people on this forum obsess over. My point is it's very dangerous to look at studies and to draw logical conclusions from them.

I am not saying you're wrong, but there are a lot of missing jigsaw pieces in your theory, just giving someone advice to clench their temporalis is for sure a bad advice until you have those pieces. As for your TMJ improving, this could be attributed to many things unrelated to proper facial development.

BTW, you should really find the full version of this study I posted, there's so many interesting claims from the researchers. For example:

  • Relatively high orbicularis oris tension caused the incisors and the whole palate to move backwards through maxilla compression! This is crazy news because it gives reason to stretch this muscle!
  • Constant tension in mastication muscles governs the MAXIMUM width of the face, less tension = higher maximum.
  • Relaxed tongue is wider, the more tension a tongue has the narrower it becomes.

 

Have you personally experienced CCW maxilla rotation and forward jaw movement from clenching?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 30/12/2020 5:26 am
Curious_Gorge
(@curious_gorge)
New Member

@auxiliarus wanted to echo these points by making an anecdotal account, I switched to a stand up desk to improve head/body posture and chewed mastic all day long to improve complexion. It's crazy how much my face changed in a matter of months. Eyes look better, mandible looks better, maxilla must have come forward.

I agree with the tongue conclusion. Babies need to use their tongue because of weak jaw muscles in order to hold up the maxilla, but once they are done breastfeeding and have teeth w/ jaw muscles, the jaw and body posture have much more in facial development.

Gravity and directional forces play a significant role considering the tongue exerts ~1/10 to 1/150th(in the case of the Eskimos) the force of the jaw muscles when contracted.

Clenching and chewing (with tongue on the floor of the mouth) with proper posture would likely result in CCW rotation. Basically the lower jaw rams the maxilla forward with proper posture, the tongue may actually pull it back.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/01/2021 2:11 am
auxiliary
(@auxiliarus)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @curious_gorge

@auxiliarus wanted to echo these points by making an anecdotal account, I switched to a stand up desk to improve head/body posture and chewed mastic all day long to improve complexion. It's crazy how much my face changed in a matter of months. Eyes look better, mandible looks better, maxilla must have come forward.

I agree with the tongue conclusion. Babies need to use their tongue because of weak jaw muscles in order to hold up the maxilla, but once they are done breastfeeding and have teeth w/ jaw muscles, the jaw and body posture have much more in facial development.

Gravity and directional forces play a significant role considering the tongue exerts ~1/10 to 1/150th(in the case of the Eskimos) the force of the jaw muscles when contracted.

Clenching and chewing (with tongue on the floor of the mouth) with proper posture would likely result in CCW rotation. Basically the lower jaw rams the maxilla forward with proper posture, the tongue may actually pull it back.

Well that depends on how you chew of course. Suppose you chew using the temporal muscles then you'd be chewing backwards on the molars, in that case you're pushing your lower teeth forward relative to the mandible, you're pushing the upper teeth backward relative to the maxilla and the maxilla is getting pushed backward. At the same time your mandible is being pushed downward relative to the ramus. In theory this should lead to maxilla retracting, CW rotation of maxilla, chin moving backwards relative to the teeth, the whole mandible with the lower teeth moving backwards and gonial angle increasing.

This is something that is visible in prehistoric human skulls, even though their bones were large, the ramus height was smaller, the maxilla was relatively more backward, the face was much much shorter and wider, the ramus was more inwardly rotated and it also seems like the whole face went up relative to the head:

 

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/4a4GtnEi5oI-2rKpORVFsjyNEJgimLgK_PFmxGbwVoXk4jvBQLlBvpHK509gU0yqERz-9vwHlW5WhcrFTFzUhcTLbZ_9N3aCJum0ImbZqLLPBGmXULjpMdwRLzSQxw

Evolution of Modern Humans: Early Modern Homo sapiens

On the other hand the modern human has a bigger jaw relative to his own head, relatively longer and thinner head, relatively bigger forehead and occipital.

 

Untitled Document

World's oldest Homo sapiens fossils found in Morocco | Science | AAAS

The interesting thing is that this is exactly what happened to my face from excess chewing, my face went from fWHR 1.75 to 1.9 and then back to 1.82, my eyebrow bones went up, my gonial angle became almost 90 degrees and my mandible grew. The thing is these are not necessarily positive traits, while my upper face became better looking, my lower face hasn't improved at all. Because of the mandible growing and the gonial angle decreasing my ramus HAD TO rotate inward, just like on the picture above, to maintain occlusion.

Here are some pictures to demonstrate what I am talking about:

 

eyebrowbone
longmandible
longmandibleoutined
lowermaxillaforward

On the first picture the eyebrow bone is slightly outward and upward. On the second and third picture you can see my mandible is too big for my head, if it was shorter my ramus wouldn't be inwardly rotated and the ear wouldn't be rotated that sharply outwards. On the third picture is what is happening to my lower maxilla over time as I mew, it's actually moving forward.

Here is a picture of my face from when I was crazy about chewing, my zygos were very high(almost at the tip of my ear), my gonion was high and very recessed and my ramus was even worsely inwardly rotated. But my ear angle was better, I suppose that moving the maxilla forward caused my mandible to move forward which caused my lower ear to move forward as well when I stopped chewing and started only soft mewing.

I was doing mostly molar chewing with temporalis muscles. In this picture my fWHR was around 1.92, currently it's at 1.82-1.88(hard to accurately get a reading, but it's definitely not above 1.9).

1402 face

 

Also wider

jaw relative to your zygos makes your face look worse, to showcase this I present these 3 pictures, all made at least at 5m distance to reduce lens-distance effects:

2018prechewing

In this picture I just started mewing. I have fWHR 1.78, IMW = 37mm, notice how my lower face(jaw) is way smaller than my upper face at a ratio of 2.06, my upper face is also 1.24 times wider.

2020duringchewing

This is during chewing, I made this picture cause I looked absolutely ridiculous, my face was bloated as duck from chewing! I had muscle ache in my jaw the whole time and weird pops in my ear. I did mostly backwards chewing with the temporalis. Notice how my chin seems to be receding, as seen by the fat skin hanging around the lips.

My fWHR here is 1.92, at the same time my results from mewing gave me around IMW = 42mm, interestingly even though my upper face got much wider(notice the ears are less visible), my lower jaw followed and the ratio of upper face width divided by lower face width remained at 1.2 which is close to the earlier 1.24. But you can obviously see that the line is higher than the previous one because my gonion moved upward!

My upper height divided by lower height remained constant at 2.06, same as the previous value, but I am sure that my maxilla and mandible both became shorter visually.

2021postchewing

Picture today, I stopped chewing with temporalis and actively avoid chewing on my molars. My face is much more diamond shaped now. My fWHR decreased to 1.88, my eyebrow width increased, my upper face much wider than my lower face at 1.31(previous value was 1.24). And my mandible has lowered itself and it's height thus increased, reducing the upper height/lower height ratio to 1.82(from 2.06).

 

So chewing a lot is bad because the movement of the bones caused by chewing isn't ideal, but chewing is integral to stimulating bone growth. In my case I might have made my mandible too long, so there's definitely a lot to consider before recommending someone chewing. But it's also possible that it's related to my genetics as I probably have growth hormone excess(long body, long feet, long hands, long head). I measured my mandibular body length at around 95-105mm, average is 83.7 +-4.6mm.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/01/2021 5:32 pm
krollic
(@krollic)
500+ Forum Posts

@auxiliarus

maybe it's about how we chew then. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190531100544.htm

"mice fed a hard diet exhibited greater masticatory force, which enhanced growth factors in the osteocytes in the jawbone and enhanced bone formation"

it's true like you mentioned that strenuous loads put upon bones help stimulate growth/turnover, which is key, but it's also true that long duration loads are going to be more likely to morph bone (in this case, in seemingly negative ways) than shorter ones.

I also remember some study that talked about how exercising and increasing the size of the massesters correlated with an improved size in bone i.e the lower mandible, which is a good thing, but I can't find it.

therefore: perhaps we should be doing very high intensity gum chewing for short periods of time instead of relatively moderate loads for hours or more, so we don't turn out like these dudes on the left, as you mentioned above.

image

 

what was your chewing routine like? I've been open-mouth chewing very tough gum (falim + ice water) for around 10 minutes max every day for quite some time now and I'm not suffering from the detrimental outcomes that you've showcased above. my philosophy being, treat it like a gym sesh and blast through the workout at high intensity and don't waste time needlessly doing lower loads at greater durations. the temporary bloat makes my head look like a gourd but "the pump" you get from any workout isn't a bad thing and only lasts a few minutes lol.

I'm getting the benefits of 1. increased masseter size, 2.  (supposed) increased bone turn over rate, leading to: 3. (supposed) jaw bone size/density increase and 4. improved resting muscle tone of my masseter i.e my bite is essentially touching at rest; meaning that my mandible is supporting my midface from collapsing downward but not exerting long-duration continuous forces into it, which I imagine is what contributed to your issues due to excessive chewing.

I think it's important that the muscle tone of our jaw/temps be developed so that it can stay in the place we want all the time at rest.

in the same way we develop our tongue strength via tongue chewing + adult swallowing exercises so that it can push against the palate at rest (asleep), I think we want to develop our jaw strength so it can gently support our midface (or at least butterfly touch) at rest too. I don't think we want to neglect exercising our chewing muscles.

tl;dr I think chewing is important but not the sort of long duration, moderate chewing Mike suggests we do. I reckon we do the inverse

cheers

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/01/2021 7:37 pm
auxiliary
(@auxiliarus)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @krollic

@auxiliarus

maybe it's about how we chew then. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190531100544.htm

"mice fed a hard diet exhibited greater masticatory force, which enhanced growth factors in the osteocytes in the jawbone and enhanced bone formation"

it's true like you mentioned that strenuous loads put upon bones help stimulate growth/turnover, which is key, but it's also true that long duration loads are going to be more likely to morph bone (in this case, in seemingly negative ways) than shorter ones.

I also remember some study that talked about how exercising and increasing the size of the massesters correlated with an improved size in bone i.e the lower mandible, which is a good thing, but I can't find it.

therefore: perhaps we should be doing very high intensity gum chewing for short periods of time instead of relatively moderate loads for hours or more, so we don't turn out like these dudes on the left, as you mentioned above.

image

 

what was your chewing routine like? I've been open-mouth chewing very tough gum (falim + ice water) for around 10 minutes max every day for quite some time now and I'm not suffering from the detrimental outcomes that you've showcased above. my philosophy being, treat it like a gym sesh and blast through the workout at high intensity and don't waste time needlessly doing lower loads at greater durations. the temporary bloat makes my head look like a gourd but "the pump" you get from any workout isn't a bad thing and only lasts a few minutes lol.

I'm getting the benefits of 1. increased masseter size, 2.  (supposed) increased bone turn over rate, leading to: 3. (supposed) jaw bone size/density increase and 4. improved resting muscle tone of my masseter i.e my bite is essentially touching at rest; meaning that my mandible is supporting my midface from collapsing downward but not exerting long-duration continuous forces into it, which I imagine is what contributed to your issues due to excessive chewing.

I think it's important that the muscle tone of our jaw/temps be developed so that it can stay in the place we want all the time at rest.

in the same way we develop our tongue strength via tongue chewing + adult swallowing exercises so that it can push against the palate at rest (asleep), I think we want to develop our jaw strength so it can gently support our midface (or at least butterfly touch) at rest too. I don't think we want to neglect exercising our chewing muscles.

tl;dr I think chewing is important but not the sort of long duration, moderate chewing Mike suggests we do. I reckon we do the inverse

cheers

 

The following is all only opinion:

"correlated with an improved size in bone i.e the lower mandible, which is a good thing"

Not necessarily, any increase in total mandible body size will push the gonion back because occlusion must always be maintained. Short mandible with very forward occlusion will look better than long mandible with very forward occlusion.(Imagine the chin being very forward, only the gonion either moving backwards(long mandible) or moving forwards(short mandible)).

"what was your chewing routine like?"

An hour every day of open mouth temporalis chewing pattern with hard mastic gum.

"I've been open-mouth chewing very tough gum (falim + ice water) for around 10 minutes max every day for quite some time now and I'm not suffering from the detrimental outcomes that you've showcased above."

"the temporary bloat makes my head look like a gourd but "the pump" you get from any workout isn't a bad thing and only lasts a few minutes lol."

For how long have you been chewing? I too have been very happy with the results in the beginning, especially with the zygo's popping. Not only considering your duration, but it's very hard to see negative changes without reference pictures. If you're using the mirror as your objective evidence then you're kidding yourself. I haven't noticed the negative changes until someone pointed them out, after which I compared pictures and saw a massive bloat. Your brain gets used to seeing the small changes over time, so you rarely even notice them.

If you want to actually know whether you're heading towards the positive or negative side then you have to keep making pictures at same distance/angle, and then comparing the values like I did. Values like fWHR, upper/lower face width and height. Ideally your fWHR will rise, your lower face width will not increase faster than your upper face width and your lower face height will increase relative to your upper face height.

Until then you're just trying to see in a dark room, you're effectively blind about the changes. 

"the temporary bloat makes my head look like a gourd"

I had this a lot, so I'd say your manner of chewing is many similar to mine, mostly on the molars.

"I'm getting the benefits of 1. increased masseter size, 2.  (supposed) increased bone turn over rate, leading to: 3. (supposed) jaw bone size/density increase and 4. improved resting muscle tone of my masseter i.e my bite is essentially touching at rest; meaning that my mandible is supporting my midface from collapsing downward but not exerting long-duration continuous forces into it, which I imagine is what contributed to your issues due to excessive chewing."

Not really, you think that those are beneficial.

Increased masseter size = bloat, is not beneficial, many actors and models decrease masseter size with botox.

Increased bone size = gonion moving backwards, any increase in mandible body length will move the gonion backwards assuming occlusion stays constant. That is not beneficial.

Bite touching at rest is not beneficial either, you will push your teeth inwards, causing a reduction in lower face height, this is not beneficial for men and most women either.

"meaning that my mandible is supporting my midface from collapsing downward but not exerting long-duration continuous forces into it, which I imagine is what contributed to your issues due to excessive chewing."

Actually the situation is quite contrast to what you said. The maxilla is held perfectly fine on it's own, it's very hard to move it up or down, it's made to resist those kinds of force, the maxilla is weak to forward and backward forces instead.

So backwards chewing will cause the occlusion and maxilla to move backward. Not only that, but the maxilla is quite weak to upwards forces at the rear, your occlusion from chewing will rotate in such way that will cause a CW rotation of the occlusion. This isn't just my experience, if you search up studies on animals or even humans you shall find that masseter training leads to CW rotation.

"I think it's important that the muscle tone of our jaw/temps be developed so that it can stay in the place we want all the time at rest."

Quite opposite, active muscles don't hold the mandible much, at the very best the mandible is held by a combination of passive forces of the tongue, passive forces of surrounding musculature AND MOSTLY by passive forces of connective tissue.

"In the same way we develop our tongue strength via tongue chewing + adult swallowing exercises so that it can push against the palate at rest (asleep), I think we want to develop our jaw strength so it can gently support our midface (or at least butterfly touch) at rest too. I don't think we want to neglect exercising our chewing muscles."

The tongue shouldn't be trained, relaxed tongue = wide, tense tongue = narrow, expanding the face is key to improving breathing. No exercises are required, there is a way to passively rest your tongue against the palate without using muscular force. Also the mid-face needs no supporting, the maxilla does not lengthen when there are no forces on it, neither does it shorten when there are, as I said before the maxilla is built in such way by the body that it resists vertical forces, instead sagittal forces are what matter. Maxilla moving forward will make it appear shorter, but the body length will not decrease. Maxilla moving backward will make it appear long, but the actual length will not change.

If bones worked the way you proposed then we'd see bones all over the body being messed up by gravity since there is nothing supporting them, instead no such thing happens until someone reaches such age that he gets osteoporosis.

In fact you'd imagine someone between 20 and 30 with no tongue posture to have a ridiculously uglier looking face, yet no such changes are observable. My older friends with no tongue posture who barely chew and breath with their mouth open look approximately the same as they did in their younger pictures. I'm basically claiming that gravity has effects so weak it is negligible.

"tl;dr I think chewing is important but not the sort of long duration, moderate chewing Mike suggests we do. I reckon we do the inverse"

Depends, chewing in which way? There are so many variations, one has to experiment for quite long to find out. Intense chewing may not be suitable for people with large bones.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/01/2021 8:27 pm
Curious_Gorge
(@curious_gorge)
New Member

@auxiliarus I highly recommend the first molar as that is more forward on the maxilla than the back most molar.

With proper posture, you can feel the pressure in your temporalis pushing the maxilla forward and upward. Do the stand up mew tuck, look down at at an angle that makes your forehead perpendicular to the floor, then chew hard gum and you'll feel it 100%.

Since you are mildly recessed, normal chewing with your head looking forward engages the back of the maxilla and CW tilt.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/01/2021 9:29 pm
auxiliary
(@auxiliarus)
500+ Forum Posts

@curious_gorge

The temporalis is incapable of producing forward forces. Refer to the anatomy of the temporalis.I think you mean the masseters? Either way I've never chewed only on my back molars, my gum was so thick it went all the way from my back molar to my premolars.

As for my progress, I am happy with it and will stick with what works for me over time.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 09/01/2021 11:06 pm
Curious_Gorge
(@curious_gorge)
New Member

@progress would it be accurate to theorize that the masseters flatten the maxilla via clenching and the temporalis accounts for the angle of the maxilla?

This would indicate the temporalis could improve "long" faces, but the masseters would improve your looks only if the temporalis has the maxilla at the proper angle, otherwise you look like that reddit user in the above post. If the temporalis is out of whack, you'd be bending the mandible in an improper way as well as lengthening the maxilla downwards, making the problem worse and resulting in an ante-gonial notch.

Not necessarily antagonistic, but two pieces of the puzzle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 17/01/2021 6:22 pm
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts

@auxiliarius That's quite compelling. What was your tongue posture like during your clenching experiment? I'm asking because you only recently began to focus on forward development of the palate. I suspect that the tongue and the jaw are intended to provide developmental counter-forces, so that whereas the tongue increases palatal length, the temporalii would ram the mandible against the maxilla so as to push the mandibular molars forward and subsequently increase mandibular length. The lack of counterbalancing forward vector from the tongue may explain why in your case you experienced backwards mandibular growth, as there was not leverage nor room for the mandible to grow forward, and instead the maxillary teeth merely gave in and moved backwards (the problem of backward mandibular growth is elaborated in depth in the Portland TMJ clinic's article series by the way). 

 

 
Posted by: @auxiliarus

1) When the temporalis is engaged, the jaw moves upwards and backwards. There is no way to individually control muscle fibers of one singular muscle head. The resultant effect is always the lower jaw moving backwards against the upper jaw. The resultant forces would be backwards for upper jaw and forwards for lower jaw.

Well, in the case of the temporalii, the anterior and posterior part of the muscle can be activated separately, the former of which hardly results in backwards movement of the mandible. Hence the rest of your chain is, though valid, not necessarily unavoidable.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Rather than looking at studies examining muscle CSA, you should look at studies examining muscle EMG and maybe muscle thickness.

What difference do you think it would make? Each of these simply point to whether the muscles are over- or underutilized. The details of such utilization are of lesser significance. In any case, if you have such studies, I will welcome them with open hands, as finding any sufficiently relevant studies at all is already difficult in itself.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

In fact this study on muscular dystrophy directly contradicts almost everything that is said on this forum:

What exactly is the contradiction? The changes are what in line with what would be expected to happen when the tongue is resting on the floor of the mouth. As you intuit, the changes would not look nice, even if at face value descriptions such as concave profile or increased width sound deceptively alluring. It's not uncommon for a flat, dystrophied faces to be wide -- it's just wrong kind of width. Certain kind of concavity can often be seen in aging people.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

just giving someone advice to clench their temporalis is for sure a bad advice until you have those pieces.

Fair enough.

 

Posted by: @curious_gorge

@progress would it be accurate to theorize that the masseters flatten the maxilla via clenching and the temporalis accounts for the angle of the maxilla?

This would indicate the temporalis could improve "long" faces, but the masseters would improve your looks only if the temporalis has the maxilla at the proper angle, otherwise you look like that reddit user in the above post. If the temporalis is out of whack, you'd be bending the mandible in an improper way as well as lengthening the maxilla downwards, making the problem worse and resulting in an ante-gonial notch.

Not necessarily antagonistic, but two pieces of the puzzle.

No idea to be honest. Something to think about.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/01/2021 1:51 am
DegiBlaze
(@basim)
50+ Forum Posts
image
image

 

image
image

 Then it seems like these results that these people got from Mewing. Mostly came from of passive contraction of Mewing and overall posture 24/7 shaped by gravity lead to the tongue subconsciously able to put on the palate and change the skull overtime subtlety and had good body posture to maintain it with occlusion stabilizing and using head and neck position to maxmize tongue force and correctly allowing the musculature to relax. It seems like chewing it unnecessary for big changes unless you large goion. Tounge chewing seems best and with some soft chewing gum for 30 mins - 1 hour along with soft - medium Mewing 24/7 and nasal breathing to get positive results.

 

For a recessed person like me, it would seem that training the muscles that are not used like the digastric and pytergoid muscles along with Mewing will cause some improvement in the occlusion and position of the maxilla and mandible overtime. Again only very subtle. Chewing gum would not ideally work for a class 2 because it resets chewing habits and doesn’t improve the position or occlusion for positive changes. 

Honestly, I would start to consider Mewing with myofuncational therapy, tounge chewing, and body posture exercises as the way for most people to get changes in their facial structure positivity without any downsides. Auxiliary is right, chewing is pointless and can be dangerous if done incorrectly or excessively. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/02/2021 12:48 am
Sceriff liked
skethoskope
(@skethoskope)
10+ Forum Posts

@progress You lost me, but I want to achieve the bottom gif bc i look like the before. Can you explain ? Also, if my teeth are slightly apart can i still get upswing and CCW rotation of maxilla

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/04/2021 3:58 am
Sceriff
(@sceriff)
50+ Forum Posts

@basim What effect would these exercises have on occlusion? 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 07/04/2021 4:23 am
nibbletslol
(@nibbletslol)
New Member

@progress

so what do i do

clench with the masseters or temporalis muscles

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/05/2021 10:46 am
CrimsonChin
(@crimsonchin)
50+ Forum Posts

This seems like an interesting idea, especially since so many dentists and similar professionals advocate having all of your teeth slightly apart, which is what I started implementing around 7 months ago. I tried this minor clenching last night, which I just put my back teeth together lightly and my temporalis area flared up and continues to do so (I'm still doing it) - it's hard to correlate this sensation with what change it could possibly bring, but it does seem to be one of the few or only things I've tried that continually has a sensation, since most of the things I've tried like army posture and hard tongue posture feel nice for around 5 minutes and then fizzle out. Does anyone have any experience with this? (I'm sure it would've been mentioned already)

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/05/2021 1:00 am
Snailgoo89
(@snailgoo89)
10+ Forum Posts

I believe intermittent clenching can help loosen sutures and can serve as a pump to the cranial sutures. 

Then having teeth in a butterfly bite, with a lip seal is adequate posture vs. clenching. Although I find clenching can shoot my tongue 👅 upwards and then I can relax the clench. 

Most important is a tooth together swallow. This is what myofunctional  and cranial sacral therapists advocate. The tooth together swallow, with only movement of tongue up and back wave like motion, sends propioceptive feedback on posture based on how the teeth contact. 

I am currently wearing an ALF appliance and I find that a tooth together swallow helps calibrate my changing bite; offering stability amidst the movement occurring. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/05/2021 9:27 am
Apollo liked
Snailgoo89
(@snailgoo89)
10+ Forum Posts

Also, I find that premolars and anterior teeth activate my temporalis and molars my masseter. 

I think it’s difficult to prescribe an absolute activation pattern due to individual differences. 

what I just did was clench hard and felt around my head until I felt both anterior and posterior temporalis engage. My masseters were also engaged so I focused on relaxing them yet feeling contraction of temporalis (both sides evenly , very important!!!). 

I don’t know if people are aware of Postural Restoration Institute (PRI), which describes how human assymetry is universal due to a stronger right diaphragm. If we do not alternate from right to left, the stronger right diaphragm can pull our spine over to the right, and predictable muscular facial chains / patterns occur - which leads to pain/ syndromes etc. 

 

I bring this up because their is a Cranio- Mandibular - Cervical chain chain that is a part of this pattern. It describes a temporal bone more internally rotated on the right (narrower palate) and externally rotated on the left (wider). Obviously variations exist, but be wary of activating the right side musculature more so than the left- this reinforces that the HUMAN assymetry to be biased - neurologically ( left brain 🧠 controls right side and left brain develops bigger once we go to school) as well as organ and muscle placement. This is why you will always see a bigger ribflare on the left versus the right. 

i repeat, clenching more on the right reinforces being over lateralized to the right, which can further mess up your posture by causing slack in the left abdominals. The right side will always be stronger due to a heavy liver anchor, as well as a lower diaphragm attachment on the lumbar spine. 👅

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Posted : 22/05/2021 9:38 am
Snailgoo89
(@snailgoo89)
10+ Forum Posts

Lastly, PRI stresses that right side tongue placement is critical for preventing cranial torque from the stronger right diaphragm. 

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Posted : 22/05/2021 9:43 am
CrimsonChin
(@crimsonchin)
50+ Forum Posts

@snailgoo89 Thanks for the elaborate posts, that is all quite interesting. Unlike the teenagers whose presence on here is just to post an all lowercase sans question mark "can i change", I will continue to do this and provide any updates in the future haha

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Posted : 23/05/2021 2:27 am
CrimsonChin
(@crimsonchin)
50+ Forum Posts

I've been doing this for 4 days or something like that and the tension in my temporarlis area has been pretty consistent, though I got a huge headache yesterday, which made me wonder exactly how this light clenching on my back teeth only may differ (if at all) from a total teeth together posture like what I used to do. I used to get headaches in that area pretty frequently when growing up, as well as at the end of last year, when I think I was unconsciously clenching so hard I was hurting my teeth, even though that was when I had no idea the resting posture isn't supposed to be teeth together (as they say, anyways). So does anyone here think light clenching with back teeth only does something else or is just putting all your teeth together supposed to achieve the same thing? I know chewing is probably more of a masseter thing, but for what it's worth, I chew gum for many hours a day (so I don't taste acid reflux, not for looks-ism) and I find the light teeth contact to be far more painful (like fatiguing, not "ahhh!!") in my masseters and temporalis than 8-10 hours of gum chewing - since starting this posture, I don't really chew the gum anymore, I just put it in my upper lip, so it's not like I'm feeling muscle fatigue from doing the posture and chewing.

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Posted : 26/05/2021 1:38 am
Greenbudgieboi
(@greenbudgieboi)
New Member

@crimsonchin

Just keep proper body and tongue posture. Also make sure to not engage the masseters other then when you are chewing because you should only engage the temporalis at rest with molars together. As long as the molars are touching, the temporalis will be engaged and that's how it should be at rest; just don't clench because that activates the masseters and gives the unaesthetic bruxism affect.

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Posted : 26/05/2021 3:36 am
CrimsonChin
(@crimsonchin)
50+ Forum Posts

@greenbudgieboi OK, that makes sense, thank you

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Posted : 26/05/2021 11:25 am
A22
 A22
(@a22)
10+ Forum Posts

So clenching the Temporalis (biting up and backwards) causes shorter face?

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Posted : 26/05/2021 6:07 pm
auxiliary
(@auxiliarus)
500+ Forum Posts

Yeah, but what type of clenching? Obviously you can clench in different directions achieving different effects. Clenching shouldn't damage the teeth as much as grinding.

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Posted : 28/05/2021 7:26 pm
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THE GREAT WORK

Warning:
Your Cranial Sutures Need To Be open for CranioSacral / Jaw Development!