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Can mewing reverse an antegonial notch if done correctly?

newuser
Active Member

Here is an illustration of what I am talking about

 

So in other words if the mandible can remodel to form a notch with vertical growth, can the reverse happen straightening the jawbone out again if you mew correctly?

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Topic starter Posted : 01/10/2018 5:12 am
DeepSquat
Active Member

Google 'ramus remodeling'

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Posted : 01/10/2018 8:31 am
Slinky
Trusted Member

is it really a bad thing? Ian Somerhalder has it and he is considered one of the best looking males 

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Posted : 01/10/2018 9:12 am
vitas liked
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: Slinky

is it really a bad thing? Ian Somerhalder has it and he is considered one of the best looking males 

Would look better without it, you can tell his jaw is slightly recessed. 

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Topic starter Posted : 01/10/2018 3:00 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

To me the antegonial notch represents the supposed ideal direction of the mandible, whereas the rest of the mandible that follows the notch is pure downward compensation. For example in the case of the picture that was posted in this thread:

So the answer would be: yes, as your face swings up, the anterior mandible will remodel and rotate out to an angle determined by the direction of the notch, until both are aligned into one, cohesive jawline.

 

 

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Posted : 01/10/2018 3:41 pm
Phil343443
Active Member

Will this rotation result in increased ramus and  lower facial height ? 

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Posted : 01/10/2018 3:55 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Phil343443

Will this rotation result in increased ramus and  lower facial height ? 

At the very least, the ramus will appear more prominent due to the rotation that is taking place. Whether it truly lengthens, I can't say. Facial height will be lowered, with everything below the eyes becoming more compact vertically. 

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Posted : 01/10/2018 4:08 pm
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: Progress

To me the antegonial notch represents the supposed ideal direction of the mandible, whereas the rest of the mandible that follows the notch is pure downward compensation. For example in the case of the picture that was posted in this thread:

So the answer would be: yes, as your face swings up, the anterior mandible will remodel and rotate out to an angle determined by the direction of the notch, until both are aligned into one, cohesive jawline.

 

 

Shouldn't his ramus be travelling in line with the front of his ear rather than behind it? To me it gives the impression his ear is rotated which looks bad.

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Topic starter Posted : 02/10/2018 3:13 am
xDJ liked
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: newuser
Posted by: Progress

To me the antegonial notch represents the supposed ideal direction of the mandible, whereas the rest of the mandible that follows the notch is pure downward compensation. For example in the case of the picture that was posted in this thread:

So the answer would be: yes, as your face swings up, the anterior mandible will remodel and rotate out to an angle determined by the direction of the notch, until both are aligned into one, cohesive jawline.

 

 

Shouldn't his ramus be travelling in line with the front of his ear rather than behind it? To me it gives the impression his ear is rotated which looks bad.

In reality, yes. With the amount of upwsing I gave him, his whole cranium would change in shape, which would be really painstaking to simulate in photoshop. His ears would likely rotate and change their relative place in the skull too. Since my intent was only to illustrate the resolving of the antegonial notch,  I merely cut the face by the notch - nasal bone axis and rotated it upward until both the nose and the mandible straightened out:

 

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Posted : 02/10/2018 6:46 am
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: newuser
Posted by: Progress

To me the antegonial notch represents the supposed ideal direction of the mandible, whereas the rest of the mandible that follows the notch is pure downward compensation. For example in the case of the picture that was posted in this thread:

So the answer would be: yes, as your face swings up, the anterior mandible will remodel and rotate out to an angle determined by the direction of the notch, until both are aligned into one, cohesive jawline.

 

 

Shouldn't his ramus be travelling in line with the front of his ear rather than behind it? To me it gives the impression his ear is rotated which looks bad.

In reality, yes. With the amount of upwsing I gave him, his whole cranium would change in shape, which would be really painstaking to simulate in photoshop. His ears would likely rotate and change their relative place in the skull too. Since my intent was only to illustrate the resolving of the antegonial notch,  I merely cut the face by the notch - nasal bone axis and rotated it upward until both the nose and the mandible straightened out:

 

Thanks for these photoshops btw.  If you say an antegonial notch is not permanent, how comes Mike Mew still has one?  If you look carefully he hides it by enlarging his masseter muscles (with chewing gum) but you can still detect it by looking at the angle of ramus compared to his ear.  I presume he's been mewing for decades.  As I said this makes me concered about making my own notch disappear. 

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Topic starter Posted : 02/10/2018 7:53 am
Progress
Member Moderator

The beard in your pic makes it difficult to say anything about Mew, but I watched a few videos of him where he is clean-shaven and there was not any significant antegonial notch present:

 

Note that the ramus/ear angle relationship you mention is not as much about downward growth (vertical) as it is about lack of forward growth (horizontal). If I am right, then antegonial notch should only appear with downward maxillary growth. A horizontally recessed face of with no downward growth would only push the mandible towards the ears with no significant gonial remodelling.

Mike himself doesn't have a perfectly developed face, which is why you will see signs of craniofacial dystrophy on him too.

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Posted : 02/10/2018 8:40 am
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: Progress

The beard in your pic makes it difficult to say anything about Mew, but I watched a few videos of him where he is clean-shaven and there was not any significant antegonial notch present:

 

Note that the ramus/ear angle relationship you mention is not as much about downward growth (vertical) as it is about lack of forward growth (horizontal). If I am right, then antegonial notch should only appear with downward maxillary growth. A horizontally recessed face of with no downward growth would only push the mandible towards the ears with no significant gonial remodelling.

Mike himself doesn't have a perfectly developed face, which is why you will see signs of craniofacial dystrophy on him too.

Ok I see. So do you believe having an antegonial notch isn't a limiter for up & forward maxillary growth?

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Topic starter Posted : 02/10/2018 8:55 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: newuser

 

Ok I see. So do you believe having an antegonial notch isn't a limiter for up & forward maxillary growth?

It won't make a difference. The notch is simply a consequence of the your currrent facial structure. Mandible will remodel to fit the maxilla, not the other way around.

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Posted : 02/10/2018 9:17 am
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: newuser

 

Ok I see. So do you believe having an antegonial notch isn't a limiter for up & forward maxillary growth?

It won't make a difference. The notch is simply a consequence of the your currrent facial structure. Mandible will remodel to fit the maxilla, not the other way around.

How about your own progress, do you have a notch and is it remodelling as you would expect?

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Topic starter Posted : 02/10/2018 10:19 am
Progress
Member Moderator

I have the notch, haven't been tracking it though. With the modest amount of improvement I have achieved, the difference would not be very visible. I think it would require about 10 mm of upward movement for the notch to even out.

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Posted : 02/10/2018 10:56 am
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: newuser

 

Ok I see. So do you believe having an antegonial notch isn't a limiter for up & forward maxillary growth?

It won't make a difference. The notch is simply a consequence of the your currrent facial structure. Mandible will remodel to fit the maxilla, not the other way around.

Does the maxilla itself also remodel when mewing, or is downward growth in that respect permanent?

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Posted : 02/10/2018 2:15 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

To what extent the maxilla remodels vs grows via the surrounding sutures, it's hard to say, but downward growth is usually reversible. Due to the numerous sutures, the dynamics of the cranium are fluid and will largely respond to the demands of the spinal musculature, including tongue. 

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Posted : 02/10/2018 2:43 pm
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: Progress

I have the notch, haven't been tracking it though. With the modest amount of improvement I have achieved, the difference would not be very visible. I think it would require about 10 mm of upward movement for the notch to even out.

I was watching some of the mewing community on youtube and came across this guy (Astro sky).  This looks like a clear notch to me which is a consequence of his jaw being recessed.  If mewing can fix something like this I would be over the moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brbk7YOfCTg&t=94s

 

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Topic starter Posted : 03/10/2018 2:51 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Why does the notch in particular bother you so much, by the way? It's such a minor aspect compared to most other aspects of craniofacial dystrophy. Some even find it attractive.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 4:03 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

@ben If I were to guess, I would say that you had postural habits that were proper enough to keep your cranium in proportion, but not rigorous enough to stimulate forward growth. Nosebreathing and standing straight without maintaining tongue posture could probably lead to such outcome. Would this describe you?

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Posted : 03/10/2018 4:51 pm
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: Progress

Why does the notch in particular bother you so much, by the way? It's such a minor aspect compared to most other aspects of craniofacial dystrophy. Some even find it attractive.

It's bothering me because I never used to have one until my jawline receded past a certain point.  I developed one a couple of months ago and i'm just worried it wont go back to how it looked before.

I consider it a jaw deformity because it's not at all what a normal jawline should look like.  Even most of the population who have a set back maxilla don't have a notch which makes me feel self conscious.   It ruins the whole look of your side profile.

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Topic starter Posted : 04/10/2018 6:07 am
Slinky
Trusted Member
Posted by: newuser
Posted by: Progress

Why does the notch in particular bother you so much, by the way? It's such a minor aspect compared to most other aspects of craniofacial dystrophy. Some even find it attractive.

It's bothering me because I never used to have one until my jawline receded past a certain point.  I developed one a couple of months ago and i'm just worried it wont go back to how it looked before.

I consider it a jaw deformity because it's not at all what a normal jawline should look like.  Even most of the population who have a set back maxilla don't have a notch which makes me feel self conscious.   It ruins the whole look of your side profile.

you have BDD

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Posted : 04/10/2018 10:29 am
tumbandjumb
Active Member
I had antegonial notch on rught side of mandible and hardmewing got rid of it. My jaw lowered and no notch. So it's reversible.
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Posted : 04/10/2018 11:12 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: newuser
Posted by: Progress

Why does the notch in particular bother you so much, by the way? It's such a minor aspect compared to most other aspects of craniofacial dystrophy. Some even find it attractive.

It's bothering me because I never used to have one until my jawline receded past a certain point.  I developed one a couple of months ago and i'm just worried it wont go back to how it looked before.

I consider it a jaw deformity because it's not at all what a normal jawline should look like.  Even most of the population who have a set back maxilla don't have a notch which makes me feel self conscious.   It ruins the whole look of your side profile.

No one thinks of this as much as you do. But if it makes you feel better, lots of attractive people have this notch and no one else seems to notice this. 

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Posted : 04/10/2018 11:24 am
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: tumbandjumb
I had antegonial notch on rught side of mandible and hardmewing got rid of it. My jaw lowered and no notch. So it's reversible.

You're giving me hope.  What is hard mewing btw?

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Topic starter Posted : 04/10/2018 11:40 am
noises
Eminent Member

My notches are clearly smoothing out, 4.5 months of progress shown here

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Posted : 05/10/2018 8:46 am
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: noises

My notches are clearly smoothing out, 4.5 months of progress shown here

That's exceptional! Did you post this in the other individual cases forum? Wow! What I think is really cool is how your bimaxillary protrusion has gone down. Have your teeth or your bite changed much?

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Posted : 05/10/2018 10:19 am
noises
Eminent Member

Thanks! I did post there over a month back yeah but I've since hidden the thread because I'm planning to come up with a higher quality presentation of my case. The protrusion seems to have subsided as both jaws have grown forwards and the dental arches have expanded, cancelling it out. That's pretty chill, haven't really thought about it before. My lower teeth are also visible now when grinning/smiling but that's probably more of a skeletal change than a dental one. The vertices of the arches haven't quite caught up with my intermolar expansion and especially my lower incisors are still pretty crowded. I don't know much about dental anatomy to be honest and was never diagnosed with malocclusion so I haven't paid close attention to my teeth.

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Posted : 06/10/2018 7:02 am
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: noises

My notches are clearly smoothing out, 4.5 months of progress shown here

Looking good the notch does seem shallower now.  How about the left side?

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Topic starter Posted : 07/10/2018 5:55 am
noises
Eminent Member

Left is my better side actually (one tends to have a good and a bad side in cases of mandibular compression as severe as mine) so the notch is even more diminished there. Also I want to make clear that the general difference is significantly exaggerated in that pic, I've been putting together these comparison pics to keep track of my progress and admittedly sometimes cherry pick ones that make the change look bigger than it is, partly to help myself envision the eventual outcome. My face is still badly recessed and my jawline sinks into my neck when I don't slightly bring it up and forward like in that pic. Very satisfied with the change nonetheless. 

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Posted : 08/10/2018 6:28 am
DeepSquat liked
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: noises

Left is my better side actually (one tends to have a good and a bad side in cases of mandibular compression as severe as mine) so the notch is even more diminished there. Also I want to make clear that the general difference is significantly exaggerated in that pic, I've been putting together these comparison pics to keep track of my progress and admittedly sometimes cherry pick ones that make the change look bigger than it is, partly to help myself envision the eventual outcome. My face is still badly recessed and my jawline sinks into my neck when I don't slightly bring it up and forward like in that pic. Very satisfied with the change nonetheless. 

When you run your thumb across your jawline can you feel the notches disappearing as the months go by?  

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Topic starter Posted : 08/10/2018 7:09 am
noises
Eminent Member

Haven't been doing that enough to provide a clear answer but from pictures it seems evident that the mandibular contour is "unfurling" into a straight jawline and a forward-projecting chin. Gonna start doing it from now on, currently the notches still feel pretty prominent.

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Posted : 08/10/2018 7:18 am
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: noises

Haven't been doing that enough to provide a clear answer but from pictures it seems evident that the mandibular contour is "unfurling" into a straight jawline and a forward-projecting chin. Gonna start doing it from now on, currently the notches still feel pretty prominent.

Cool.

What kind of noises are you hearing in your skull in those 4.5 months and what do you think they represent? 

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Topic starter Posted : 08/10/2018 12:26 pm
noises
Eminent Member

Uh I get subtle cracks and clicks sometimes, nothing too dramatic. Could be sutural movement idk

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Posted : 09/10/2018 5:07 am
newuser
Active Member
Posted by: tumbandjumb
I had antegonial notch on rught side of mandible and hardmewing got rid of it. My jaw lowered and no notch. So it's reversible.

Do you have any before & after the notch pics?

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Topic starter Posted : 15/10/2018 3:52 am
dm222
Trusted Member

Anyone saw astro sky update?

?width=960&format=mp4&s=e937511192f790f1cd559598b2cff3f08fb9adfd

Is it possible?!!

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Posted : 06/05/2019 1:19 pm
dm222
Trusted Member

Astro

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Posted : 06/05/2019 1:20 pm
JeanMacDougall
Eminent Member
Posted by: newuser

Here is an illustration of what I am talking about

 

So in other words if the mandible can remodel to form a notch with vertical growth, can the reverse happen straightening the jawbone out again if you mew correctly?

you sure this isnt just genetic? my mother has a good jaw but strong notch, i have it as well even though my jaw is way recessed.

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Posted : 06/05/2019 7:51 pm
mewchell
Active Member

I agree with jean, I think its partially genetic at the least, you may never get rid of it and I doubt it only came about in the last few months unless you had a stroke

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Posted : 08/05/2019 8:30 am
Slinky
Trusted Member

John mew in this video says how nobody should have a antegonial notch and only people with high gonial angles have it. He also talks about some other aspects of CFD

https://youtu.be/64AOo0Bn-WA

 

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Posted : 29/07/2019 10:49 am
Freddie
Eminent Member
Posted by: @progress

The beard in your pic makes it difficult to say anything about Mew, but I watched a few videos of him where he is clean-shaven and there was not any significant antegonial notch present:

 

Note that the ramus/ear angle relationship you mention is not as much about downward growth (vertical) as it is about lack of forward growth (horizontal). If I am right, then antegonial notch should only appear with downward maxillary growth. A horizontally recessed face of with no downward growth would only push the mandible towards the ears with no significant gonial remodelling.

Mike himself doesn't have a perfectly developed face, which is why you will see signs of craniofacial dystrophy on him too.

He said that he had big back problems I guess that he developed some « dystrophy » as he has gotten older. His father raised him well anyway

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Posted : 29/07/2019 12:18 pm
James
Eminent Member

I had AGGA for 8 months during which time I was Mewing. I have my CBCT before/after and I know how to view them. I see zero changes to my antegonial notch, gonial angle, or any dimension of the mandible (main mandibular change was my chin moving forward 5mm due to my incisors proclining by 9°). If AGGA and Mewing didn't change the antegonial notch, I really have trouble believing that Mewing alone can, at least not in 8 months.

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Posted : 29/07/2019 3:29 pm
ohwhatthehell
Eminent Member

I was just looking at my notches in the mirror this morning and wondering what they are. I have a much more pronounced one on the right side, but I definitely have it on both. I don't think they look bad at all, but @Progress saying that they represent that there is more potential in the jaw for upswing is pretty interesting. I'm starting a new hard mewing + chin tucking regiment that I plan on following for the next 30 days. Hopefully I'll see some progress with my upswing.

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Posted : 02/08/2019 11:29 am
posturized
New Member

This is my x ray.. I guess I have one of these notches?

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Posted : 02/08/2019 12:15 pm