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Can I get same expansion as an appliance using tongue  

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Samuel Alonzo
(@samuel-alonzo)
Active Member

Hey,

I was wondering if I could get same expansion as you would get with an appliance just by using an appliance?

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Posted : 10/11/2018 6:22 pm pleasehelpme liked
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darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Estimable Member

No.  An appliance is far superior.  You don't want to train your tongue to put the kind of pressure needed for teeth movement within your mouth to work.  Your tongue is your STRONGEST muscle in the body.  RUN from Dr. Mew's dangerous teachings to an orthodontist.  I've made a list in another thread.  That being said... I still think the British Orthodontic Association should let him back in if any videos with hint of pressure (as opposed to positioning) are taken down.  Having a good tongue posture is fine... and can potentially act as a way to sustain a good smile.  HOWEVER, the PRESSURE put within our mouths is destructive.  ALSO, I wouldn't even start doing anything he suggested until orthodontics is complete.  But at that point, I'd be cautious to remove retainer.  Truthfully, I'd bag Dr. Mike Mew and his teachings.  Getting fuller cheekbones comes at a high cost... (less visible top teeth) and full-length open bite (posterior and anterior).  Run for your lives!!!!  Migraines and other crap associated with TMJ you don't want.  I feel like the stuff he teaches is fine in concept, but in application less so.  I can take him down... and will with the truth.  I'm going to have to get another CBCT and show what's happened.  In full disclosure, I did bit down on my teeth the other day... and part of that could be to blame... Anyway... it could be my own fault... going to an orthodontist.  Yikes!  Just hope I can stop the tongue suck on the roof of my mouth at night.  I don't even remember where my tongue was before all this... and I know I can't get that care-free eating, positioning and sleeping back.  

This post was modified 2 months ago 4 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 11/11/2018 8:56 am
Samuel Alonzo
(@samuel-alonzo)
Active Member

@darkindigo

So you're saying Dr. mike mew is a fraud

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Posted : 11/11/2018 6:35 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Estimable Member

I'm saying I don't have the personal bandwidth to put handrails on his teachings, especially when they are adulterated.  I feel this site generally is well run and managed & have enjoyed my time here.  I just feel huge amounts of frustration in skeptism not being tolerated when it conflicts with the ideology of the Admins.  There have been multiple closings of threads (mine and others) where I felt an open dialog and discussion would have benefited all.

I envisioned a place where helpful treatments could be discussed... and wanted to push the conversation towards more traditional treatments and discussing those.  There is a lot of chaos in the orthodontic world when it comes to treatments, and I've been able to cut through a lot of that.  I wanted to share what I've learned.  However, what I've learned is very damning to some of the treatments out there.  I believe with information I could share, that 80-90% of orthodontist would be out of work.  To get to that level of knowledge and understanding and not have a way to share it, it's very frustrating.  I could have just posted publicly, but Myomunchie or Adapt or others would be unhappy.  I could relay a personal phone call that I had with someone at the FDA regarding sleep disordered breathing and ADHD.  They know the connection - they know orthodontics can help... but they're not approving it.  I don't know what else to say... beyond I feel that fundamentally, my underlying reason for leaving the site is three-fold: 1. I'm getting a job soon & won't have the time.  2. My mouth has changes in it that are undesirable. 3. I am too passionate based on what I know and that is creating a problem.  In many ways, I would like to at least share a few things...  I really care about every single one of you.  You keep me up at night... your stories, your challenges, your adventures.  That is why I've been so plurific in writing.  I appologize for any offence I have created... it was not personal or meant to be.  I sometimes have used curt/short language, because I'm really short on time.  If you'd like to write me, please send a message to weloveyoudarkindigo@mailinator.com and I'll respond... be aware that your own email address with be displayed and the message may be read by anyone.  😉

This post was modified 2 months ago by darkindigo
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Posted : 12/11/2018 1:11 am
jimbobape
(@jimbobape)
Active Member

Not the same,

Less or more, but regardless,

More even and directed growth

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Posted : 15/11/2018 8:37 pm
Couda
(@couda)
Eminent Member

@DarkIndigo

Then you have been mewing wrong. The way to mew is to push the very back of the tongue upwards and have the front part of the tongue relaxed up. If you have the force forwards, that will cause openbite.

But yeah, appliance is superior to mewing when intermolar width is below 37-38 mm. 

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Posted : 18/11/2018 4:43 am
Rockyp33
(@rockyp33)
Estimable Member

@darkindigo mewing is just excercising a muscle and using it properly. Its not dangerous to apply force if you do it correctly, just like any other excercise if you squat with bad form yes youll gain some strength but you eventually get injured. Applying force is ok if you know how to do it properly. their is no definitive guide because everyones different. All you can do is master your body posture and master tongue posture and results will come with time but for most of us that would take way too long. We need to strengthen the tongue quickly. Mewing has become really complicated on here but its actually very simple you cant mew correctly without good body posture and if you do you may see some undesired changes. Take a look at this post this is proof it works. Also i agree appliances are much faster but this helps buidl the proper tongue posture https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/hey-guys-mewing-doesnt-work-sarcasm-age-15-21-before-after-itt/  

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Posted : 19/11/2018 9:46 pm
Rockyp33
(@rockyp33)
Estimable Member

im curious what youve learned about ADHD and whatever other knowledge you have to offer. Ive gathered from reading on this forum that ADHD seems to come from improper growth mainly in the face either because of the hormones, small airway, or muscle imbalances

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Posted : 19/11/2018 9:48 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Estimable Member
Posted by: Rockyp33

im curious what youve learned about ADHD and whatever other knowledge you have to offer. Ive gathered from reading on this forum that ADHD seems to come from improper growth mainly in the face either because of the hormones, small airway, or muscle imbalances

I've left this forum... but since I saw your message, I'll pass along some useful information.  This is one of my favorite articles - packed with tons of useful information for children: https://www.drstevenlin.com/sleep-apnea-children/   Even adults can benefit from reading.

Dr. Derek Mahony seems to be leading the charge on sleep disordered breathing and orthodontic intervention.  Here are a few recent videos where this topic is covered:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBqhZELRj0Q&t=16s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlFbFC8I1H4
Be sure to subscribe to his channel as he'll be unveiling his research of 3,500 patients over about a decade.

I personally think that unless a polysomnography, oxymetry or PSQ questionnaire or Epworth questionnaire shows problems, I would not treat (outside of dental issues).  The airway for kids does continue to grow...  See volumetric measurements of Figure 1 at https://www.scitechnol.com/peer-review/physiologic-remodeling-of-the-upper-airway-pneumopedics-1eBO.php?article_id=7664

I'd be more concerned with an MCA below 50 mm sq.  (Please note the difference between volume which is cubed and cross-section, which is squared).

Oh wow!!! Just 8 hours ago he unleashed one of his best videos yet!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAsBdrZmFmk   How to determine where your maxilla should be.  WOW!  So glad he has shared this.  What a scholar who can make it easy for others to understand.

Also, I snuck into a physicians group on airway with top minds.  I'm not really supposed to be there... but there was some buzz around a recently developed maxillary expansion technique:

Distraction Osteogenesis Maxillary Expansion is being performed at the Stanford Sleep Centre by Dr. Stanley Liu.  More at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318214932_Distraction_Osteogenesis_Maxillary_Expansion_DOME_for_Adult_Obstructive_Sleep_Apnea_Patients_with_High_Arched_Palate

Caption:

"This is a report of the first 20 adult OSA patients with narrow high arched palates that were treated with a new adult palatal expansion technique at Stanford Sleep Centre.

"This technique is designed to maximise bony expansion over dental expansion, and eliminate the need for more invasive surgically assisted expansion.

"Patients had widening of the nasal floor, reduced nasal resistance and reduced AHI."

Some questions being raised by the group are about the alignment with mandibular teeth, patient experience overall & the availability of teaching this technique to others.

This post was modified 2 months ago 3 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 20/11/2018 2:25 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Estimable Member

ADHD can also come from dietary issues... and the Nemechek Protocol may help there.  Celiac may also be implicated.  ADHD is a little complicated.  The first link I sent above has a link on the text "ADHD".  If you follow that, you'll gain a better understanding of the complexities.  Ultimately, however, I am in agreement with the ENTs description of ADHD/orthodontic issues as described in Dr. Mahony's video on determining maxillary placement. 

Additionally, this stuff has been know for some time, it seems.  Today I had my annual exam.  In sharing with my medical doctor some things I've learned recently, he had talked about his own son who had a crossbite with his maxillary teeth entirely inside his mandibular teeth.  Anyway, he also had ADHD type issues.  Around age 8/9 he had received palatal expansion and that benefited him.  🙂  I think many in the medical world have limited recognition of the need for orthodontia in situations of smaller airway and related symptoms.  I feel like the message just can't be shared fast enough.

This post was modified 2 months ago 2 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 20/11/2018 2:42 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Estimable Member

After researching for 3 months on the appropriate treatment for my child, I got the closest thing around where I live to the first part of Dr. Bill Hang's treatment (expancer) for 9 year old... https://www.slideshare.net/drbarry/airway-ortho-7-intervening-form   (slide 55).  He can be a little overkill, IMO on airway.. I see less of a side-ways arc on the faces of some of his patients than I think would look good.

Anyway, decided on less protrusion of front teeth... but similar concept.  A y-shaped Schwartz or DNA wireframe y-shaped is what I'd lean toward.  The only orthodontist who does something like this is who I opted for.  Part of the decision came down to some prior history with allergies... and that tipped the scales for me toward palatal expansion vs. braces.  Braces give a nice, natural look, so that is good.  The only thing is that I'm not a huge fan of the enamel being braced onto twice.... the front ones are permanent in mixed dentition.  However, palatal expansion is super tricky to get right!!!  I can see the face is like totally moldable.  Positioning it is a big responsibility.  Aesthetics matter a ton.  Going up from #6 molars all the way straight-out turn key style to incisors is too much.  Make a wide bridge on the nose... also the back cheekbones start to get a little lost.  Allowing the incisors to remain a little closer together and keeping the #6 molars a 1/2 mm expanded more than imprint on both sides has been helpfl to pronounce the cheekbones.  If you go too Ved, you loose the nose width and the nose just appears way to small, disproportionately from the flatter face.  Anyway, super interesting stuff.  I do feel that the front of the maxilla needs to be supported during expansion... otherwise, a bit of a concave look can happen... causing down the road a look like a donut face.  A circle of flesh may be noticeable around the mouth.  Anyway... it looks like a donut to me.  LOL

This post was modified 2 months ago 4 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 20/11/2018 2:59 am
Rockyp33
(@rockyp33)
Estimable Member

seems like you have good knowledge @darkindigo i dont think you should leave this forum just because of the possible dangers of hard mewing. I used to have really bad adhd symptoms and ive been mewing for about a year and i think ive made quite a dramatic change. i wasnt breastfed so i developed really bad bruxism and overbite and mewing fixed my bruxism and improved pretty much every facet in my life and helped a lot of my adhd symptoms. I also have a tongue tie but that just might be from not being breastfed

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Posted : 20/11/2018 3:41 pm
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
Estimable Member

I am entirely against "hard Mewing" or any kind of Mewing beyond just tongue positioning.  Even then, I'm against paying attention to your tongue absent long face syndrome...  The only time I may consider it is if the condyles are a little low.  The reason why I believe some have found help with their TMJ is because TMJ is generally referred as a catch-all for misalignment of the condyles.  If the condyles are low, so they are about to pop out, possibly!  If they are high, I personally would avoid.  However, I am only one data point.  If possible, I would have gone back in time if I could and avoided any talk of Mewing.  It has not produced desirable effects for me beyond slightly more pronounced cheek bones and a shorter face.  The undesirable list FAR outweighs... and lastly, Dr. Mew never talked about applying pressure from what I'm aware of.  Don't quote me on any of the above.  I'm not a doctor and it is only a hunch.  My point being... I may have done Mewing wrong.  The issue is it's so variable, outside of a doctors input and control and so that is why I cannot support it.  Additionally, it has not been tested.

This post was modified 2 months ago 5 times by darkindigo
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Posted : 21/11/2018 1:13 am Angie liked
Samuel Alonzo
(@samuel-alonzo)
Active Member

Let me make my question clearer I have enough room for my tongue and my IMW is above 39 mm. Now can I have good amount of expansion probably in the 50s and I'm young so.

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Posted : 25/11/2018 10:30 pm
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As you undergo correction in the near future, please consider keeping records for your own sake and for others. Pictures of dental impressions, scans, medical reports reports can be very helpful even with all personally identifying information blocked out.

Your input could help many, many people

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