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Buteyko and snore mewing  

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Lawnmewer
Active Member

Many of you might be familiar with the Buteyko Method. If not, the idea is that the less you breathe the better. It's more complicated than that, but that's what it comes down to. 

The main way to actively do this, is to reduce your breathing as much as you can while still maintaining consistency.

While the Buteyko community insists that it's unrelated to mewing, perhaps snore mewing could help with reducing breathing as it blocks the airway forcing you to breathe less.

Posted by: @loliboly

Snore mewing

 

Occurs when the posterior third is engaged, and blocks the airway. May be the true position of the tongue of in a recessed face.Very common for beginner mewers who try to learn how to engage the posterior third. Effective for building awareness of the tongue. Might be effective for training the posterior third and expanding the airways, but is highly uncomfortable and mentally taxing.

 

 

What is the general consensus about the Buteyko Method on here? I will admit that I'm not as convinced about Buteyko working as I am about Orthotropics. While there are a lot of anecdotal stories about Buteyko massively improving people's lives, the studies supporting it are controversial. 

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Posted : 07/05/2020 3:04 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @lawnmewer

What is the general consensus about the Buteyko Method on here? I will admit that I'm not as convinced about Buteyko working as I am about Orthotropics. While there are a lot of anecdotal stories about Buteyko massively improving people's lives, the studies supporting it are controversial. 

I was interested in Buteyko breathing when I was about to get started with mewing but then dropped trying to learn it since I had no breathing issues at all. I might learn it one day, however.

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Posted : 07/05/2020 3:37 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

Buteyko so far as in it's promotion in nose breathing is correct, but the other exaggerated claims are not. I've read some ridiculous things like butekyo will cure a myriad of illnesses or that you'll be able to sleep for 5 hours, all because you've changed your breathing. The mistake of buteyko is associating mouth breathing with the cause of illnesses, it never considers that people who are ill are mouth breathing because of their illness, not that their illness is a result of mouth breathing. This isn't to say you shouldn't nose breathe or that mouth breathing can't worsen your condition/health, just don't bother with all the exercises, all of it just seems like non sense to me. Just breathe through your nose and you'll be fine. Also, I don't think the premise of breathing less is entirely correct, if that were the case why would expansion of the maxilla massively improve people's breathing? 

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Posted : 07/05/2020 3:55 pm
Slinky liked
Lawnmewer
Active Member

@sinned

Posted by: @sinned

Buteyko so far as in it's promotion in nose breathing is correct, but the other exaggerated claims are not. I've read some ridiculous things like butekyo will cure a myriad of illnesses or that you'll be able to sleep for 5 hours, all because you've changed your breathing. The mistake of buteyko is associating mouth breathing with the cause of illnesses, it never considers that people who are ill are mouth breathing because of their illness, not that their illness is a result of mouth breathing. This isn't to say you shouldn't nose breathe or that mouth breathing can't worsen your condition/health, just don't bother with all the exercises, all of it just seems like non sense to me. Just breathe through your nose and you'll be fine.

You're right, there are definitely some outrageous claims.

However, I do think there is some logic to it. I definitely don't think that your breathing patterns have zero effect on your health. If hyperventilation is bad for you, then while it may or may not be true that the polar opposite of breathing too much, breathing as little as possible, is good, it does show that there is a good and a bad way to breathe. It is generally believed that exhaling slowly dilates arteries and can help with anxiety. Plus, people who are fit tend to breathe slower and less than people who are not. 

I don't think the premise of breathing less is entirely correct, if that were the case why would expansion of the maxilla massively improve people's breathing? 

I think it's more about being able to breathe more, which is necessary when doing intense exercise. 

I made this video a while back where I looked at the breathing patterns of people living in indigenous tribes. These people all have very well developed faces (expanded maxillas), and there have also been studies proving that they have the healthiest hearts/arteries ever. At least people in Tsimane, where the study was conducted. 

had to compress it into oblivion to meet the size limit, sorry

Their breathing pattern does correspond with the Buteyko method; slow, subtle, small breaths that you can hardly see.

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Posted : 07/05/2020 4:46 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

God dammit. I wrote multiple paragraphs explaining the issues you brought forth @sinned but the message was not sent and all the saved revisions got deleted. In short, Buteyko seeks to increase CO2 tolerance. CO2 level determines how well your cells are oxygenated due to the Bohr effect: without sufficient CO2, red blood cells don't release oxygen into the cells. You could have 100% oxygen saturation in the blood and still be hypoxic on cellular level. Inhaling more oxygen would thus achieve nothing because you are already pumped full of oxygen. The only way to improve oxygenation in this case is to train the body to retain more CO2. Since all bodily processes are founded on proper oxygenation so you can imagine the body-wide consequences of not having proper CO2 levels. 

You likely are aware of how fundamentally exercising increases wellbeing. Breath training achieves the same outcome aerobic exercise does, only through different means. Whereas exercising increases CO2 levels by increasing CO2 production (CO2 is the final product of cellular respiration), Buteyko method increases CO2 levels by increasing CO2 retention. 

Moreover, Buteyko is rebranded pranayama, an ancient yogic practice of gradual breathing cessation. Throughout history yogis have been known for many kinds of extraordinary feats such as needing to eat and sleep very little and being able to control their heart rate along with other functions of the autonomic nervous system. It is not that exaggerated to state that improving oxygenation improves every process within your body. As your oxygenation improves, your metabolism becomes more efficient, enabling you to make more use of the same amount of food; your sleep becomes deeper, enabling you to sleep less and feel more rested; your cognition improves, as does your hormonal homeostasis and the functioning of your organs. You have more energy, better outlook, and you are more resistant to practically all kinds of illness. It's not uncommon for an advanced buteyko practicioner to only have to sleep 4-6 hours a night. I have already reduced my sleep from 9-10 to around 8 and I'm still a beginner with the practice.

Having said all that, the way the modern Buteyko method is taught is quite different from how Buteyko himself taught it. Buteyko had lesser emphasis on exercises and larger emphasis on making breathing less a permanent part of your life. He also felt that it was important that breathing reduction was not stressful at all. His view was that if your body began to tense or you began to feel stress, you were breathing too little. Breathing less, when done properly, should increase alertness, decrease heart rate and make you feel warm and good.

Here is a short summary on how the method was originally taught: http://www.members.westnet.com.au/pkolb/but_strt.htm

To @lawnmewer, since breath regulation is done by the autonomic nervous system, artificially obstructing the airway is unlikely to yield much additional benefit, especially since the same conscious effort with which you would maintain the tongue position could be applied to simply breathing less.

 

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Posted : 07/05/2020 5:23 pm
moemoe, TGW, UwU and 2 people liked
Shaku
Active Member
Posted by: @lawnmewer

Their breathing pattern does correspond with the Buteyko method; slow, subtle, small breaths that you can hardly see.

I have pretty bad dark eye circles and I've always been interested in Buteyko for this reason, hoping it may help me, as I suspect they have something to do with my messed up breathing from asthma, but I found it hard to get into it, unlike mewing. Could you give us the breathing rhythm that you found these indigenous people followed to give it a try? As in: breath for X seconds, hold for Y seconds, exhale for Z seconds, wait for W seconds, repeat? What would those 4 numbers be from your research? Thanks in advance, that's very interesting.

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Posted : 07/05/2020 6:22 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @shaku
Posted by: @lawnmewer

Their breathing pattern does correspond with the Buteyko method; slow, subtle, small breaths that you can hardly see.

I have pretty bad dark eye circles and I've always been interested in Buteyko for this reason, hoping it may help me, as I suspect they have something to do with my messed up breathing from asthma, but I found it hard to get into it, unlike mewing. Could you give us the breathing rhythm that you found these indigenous people followed to give it a try? As in: breath for X seconds, hold for Y seconds, exhale for Z seconds, wait for W seconds, repeat? What would those 4 numbers be from your research? Thanks in advance, that's very interesting.

Dr. Buteyko believed that breathing patterns are very personal and should not be tampered with. Rather, one should relax and observe their natural breathing pattern, then simply inhale a little less air in accordance to this rhythm. The quality of one's breathing is more about overall air volume than the amount of breaths per minute or the length of individual breaths. While Buteyko had his reasons for favoring short and shallow breaths, slower and deeper breaths would achieve the same results so long as the breathed air volume consisted of identical liters per minute.

Check the link I shared in my previous post to get started. If you want I can send you a transcript of Buteyko's lecture in Moscow, though it does not provide practical tips as much as it establishes the theoretical foundation for the practice.

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Posted : 07/05/2020 6:51 pm
UwU liked
Lawnmewer
Active Member
Posted by: @progress

To @lawnmewer, since breath regulation is done by the autonomic nervous system, artificially obstructing the airway is unlikely to yield much additional benefit, especially since the same conscious effort with which you would maintain the tongue position could be applied to simply breathing less.

You're probably right, but I saw people talking about how using devices such as homemade 'noseplugs' helped them a lot in increasing their CP when they weren't able to increase it through the reduced breathing exercises anymore. By purposefully obstructing your breathing you could then emulate such a device. But it's probably better to just do RB...

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Posted : 07/05/2020 6:52 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @lawnmewer
Posted by: @progress

To @lawnmewer, since breath regulation is done by the autonomic nervous system, artificially obstructing the airway is unlikely to yield much additional benefit, especially since the same conscious effort with which you would maintain the tongue position could be applied to simply breathing less.

You're probably right, but I saw people talking about how using devices such as homemade 'noseplugs' helped them a lot in increasing their CP when they weren't able to increase it through the reduced breathing exercises anymore. By purposefully obstructing your breathing you could then emulate such a device. But it's probably better to just do RB...

Yeah, in that case the benefit comes from not having to consciously think about RB. It would be difficult to reach similar state of effortlessness by using the tongue to obstruct the airway. I think that the reason people stop progressing with their CP is that they are only depending on periodical exercises, whereas originally RB was meant to become your default mode of breathing.

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Posted : 07/05/2020 6:56 pm
Lawnmewer
Active Member

@shaku

Posted by: @shaku

Could you give us the breathing rhythm that you found these indigenous people followed to give it a try? As in: breath for X seconds, hold for Y seconds, exhale for Z seconds, wait for W seconds, repeat? What would those 4 numbers be from your research? Thanks in advance, that's very interesting

I've tried, but it's difficult to do both because it can be hard to see due to quality, and it's hard to find a shot that's focused on one person long enough for them to finish at least one or two breathing 'cycles'. 

I think I will try it again though, it can be very interesting. If I do manage to succeed, I'll let you know!

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Posted : 07/05/2020 7:01 pm
Shaku
Active Member

@progress

Thanks a lot for the info. That gives me some hope that I can actually make that work, it is way easier to try to control the volume without the burden of controlling the rhythm. I take it you mean this 1969 lecture at Moscow State university? It's on Kindle so I'll get it there. Also do you think this could potentially help with dark eye circles?

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Posted : 07/05/2020 7:01 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member

I've used a modified Frolov device for intermittent hypercapnic hypoxic training to promote adaptation of the breathing center without the concentration required by buteyko or pranayama exercises ( https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/my-routine/paged/2/#post-1734 ). It seemed promising, but I got too busy and quit before I could determine if it was effective. I really should give it another try. 

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Posted : 07/05/2020 9:13 pm
Loliboly
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

If you want I can send you a transcript of Buteyko's lecture in Moscow, though it does not provide practical tips as much as it establishes the theoretical foundation for the practice.

I would happily read that transcript!

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Posted : 08/05/2020 1:19 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@Lawnmewer

The problem with snore mewing is that it is highly uncomfortable. Despite its eventual benefits, this makes the technique not very effective in practice for the overwhelming majority of people. I think "breath mewing" could be the answer to this dilemma. Wether of not it will be effective for your goal; if you feel inclined to incorporate tongue posture into your Buteyko work, I would recommend you to breath mew.

Cheers

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Posted : 08/05/2020 1:39 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @apollo

I've used a modified Frolov device for intermittent hypercapnic hypoxic training to promote adaptation of the breathing center without the concentration required by buteyko or pranayama exercises ( https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/my-routine/paged/2/#post-1734 ). It seemed promising, but I got too busy and quit before I could determine if it was effective. I really should give it another try. 

I have understood that the Frolov is very effective especially at lower control pauses. With proper technique your control pause may increase by over 10 seconds by the end of the session, which would be difficult to achieve with manually reduced breathing.

 

@loliboly

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Posted : 08/05/2020 5:21 am
Loliboly liked
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@progress
Thanks a lot!

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Posted : 08/05/2020 7:06 am
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

Hey guys, a have a question regarding snore mewing. Ive read yesterday on this forum (dont remember where tho) about something similiar - someone pasted a lookism post. Pretty smart guy wrote there that to mew when you are in "can't breath" phase you still have to learn to glue the back of your tongue up on the palate, and to sip air lowering tip/middle of the tongue (which is counterintuitive at first), to keep constant pressure on the back of the mouth to expand the palate. 
What do you guys thinking about it? Im trying this atm.

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Posted : 08/05/2020 11:39 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@adam
How is lowering the tip and middle going to let one breathe? I think that the alternative to snore mewing is breath mewing(less extreme version of snore mewing), assuming that the premise is correct.

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Posted : 08/05/2020 3:11 pm
Adam
 Adam
Eminent Member

Idk ive just read that in the post.

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Posted : 08/05/2020 3:32 pm
UwU
 UwU
Active Member

@progress

Hey, I remember talking to you about buteyko in another thread! It's good to see that you made some progress!

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Posted : 10/05/2020 6:01 am