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Brazilian oral maxillofacial surgeon on why Mewing doesen't work past 22-23 yo  

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Mewings
New Member

The intersting part starts on 10:12

At 12:33 a strong statment: "With mewing, this kind of results are unattainable" and than she explain why

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZVDRcCRBYY

Feeling so sad about this….

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Posted : 26/06/2019 8:58 pm
sinned
Estimable Member

She has a vested interested in saying mewing won't work. https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/progress-of-progress-two-year-skull-change/paged/2/

Progress was born in 1992 and has made clear improvements as well as expansion.

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Posted : 26/06/2019 9:17 pm
elevee and RamonT liked
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

Unless she has conducted studies on her own, this kind of statement is unscientific because there simply has not been many studies on mewing after 22.  Maybe she's right, but until studies have been done, it's just another hypothesis.

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Posted : 26/06/2019 10:15 pm
RamonT liked
RamonT
Trusted Member
Posted by: Mewings

The intersting part starts on 10:12

At 12:33 a strong statment: "With mewing, this kind of results are unattainable" and than she explain why

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZVDRcCRBYY

Feeling so sad about this….

I completely disagree with her.

My friend, If you have not learned how to mew properly, I suggest you check/study, all of John/Mike Mew's videos on mewing,  add your own ideas to it, be really consistent and in time, you will see results. Mewing is a life style, a journey.

P.S. I can't thank John and Mike Mew enough for sharing this amazing thing with us. These days i honestly can't live without mewing. Mewing goes beyond making a face look better.

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Posted : 26/06/2019 11:05 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

So I've actually been learning basic Portuguese so I let the video play in the background just to listen to the language.  I could be wrong but doesn't she emphasize before she starts talking about mewing that everything she's about to say is just her opinion? Or maybe I'm translating it wrong.

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Posted : 26/06/2019 11:30 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

My shortened face and broader skull attest that she is wrong

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Posted : 27/06/2019 12:02 am
RamonT liked
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: sinned

She has a vested interested in saying mewing won't work. https://the-great-work.org/community/case-discussions/progress-of-progress-two-year-skull-change/paged/2/

Progress was born in 1992 and has made clear improvements as well as expansion.

People mew to displace the entire maxilla. If you mew and achieve palatal expansion i wouldnt call it a sucess.

What she says makes sense with something i've experienced in the past. When i was 21, i would feel brace-like discomfort/pain in my entire palate/teeth region after just a single day of mewing.

Now that im 24 i've been mewing for months and i never got the same pain again

 

@Mewings You seem to understand her. Can you tell us abit more. Why is she saying that mewing doesnt work after that age group specifically? 

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Posted : 27/06/2019 3:56 pm
Mangas77
Eminent Member

@Bundfalke, how much have you progressed since you started mewing ?

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Posted : 27/06/2019 5:23 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: Mangas77

@Bundfalke, how much have you progressed since you started mewing ?

Not at all, its only been 3 months. And probably never will

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Posted : 27/06/2019 5:41 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member

Dude, honestly, you’re so pessimistic for nothing a lot of the time. I’ve seen you see clear examples of stuff that used to be considered impossible be shown to be potentially possible after all, like the study you literally cited on her before about slow expansion gauging nasal/zygo expansion, or that Reddit case study that even @AbdulRahim, who is somewhat of a healthy skeptic, approved of (the asian dude if you’re still wondering which case it was) The same day you found out about the reddit case study, you went from being somewhat excited about it (to be fair, you were in disbelief from the get go) to completely demotivated and doubtful about it. This all took place in less than a 24 hour period.

 

You’ve got to let some of these minor breakthroughs take place and flourish so authoritative figures in this community can start receiving funding for clinical trials.  Because if we don’t allow these minor advances to snowball, it is not in any healrh profesisons best interest to commerizlaize this as many of these therapies can be utilized for free from childhood upwards and will put a myriad of health professional, especially surgeons, out of jobs. With that being said, of course this surgeon will boundlessly oppose of a method like this.

 

Note: I do understand what you’re saying because I have had similar experiences to you. I can relate when you say that mewing was a bit easier when you were younger, around the ages you speak of. But I can’t totally relate because I really believe it still works and that there is no reason not to work. Professionals like @SUGR2. It only believe in this, but he also obviously has experienced some of these things in his own practice. it just takes more time for bone remodeling at an older age, potentially because of  potential he because of kess HGH (which I see that you’re combating by doing on MI-677, which is great) 

 

I honestly think you’re very bright and resourceful & wish you the best. I also hope that you become a bit more optimistic during this transition period, and also remain open to paradigm shifts for the future because we need all the support we can get.

 

PS: I hope you don’t take any of my constructive criticism offensive as that was not my intention or initiative here. 

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Posted : 27/06/2019 6:29 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@GoTTi Personally i dont get discouraged by random doctors saying "mewing doesnt work".

But what makes me pessimistic is too see people mew for several years without any change. Its hard to believe in mewing when you see that.

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Posted : 27/06/2019 6:55 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

"Results not typical" does not mean "Results impossible". People who make progress are few and far in between but that doesn't mean the method doesn't work.

I attribute lots of success to actually using all facial muscles in a new way. Being aware of my mentalis usage, zygomaticus usage, and my pterygoid muscles has made me have good facial symmetry and has made my lower third stronger simply from moving differently. 

Mewing is just the beginning. It's a total body makeover. 

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Posted : 27/06/2019 9:25 pm
Kyte and RamonT liked
elevee
Trusted Member
Posted by: sinned

She has a vested interested in saying mewing won't work. 

This. My friend who is an obstetrical surgeon says, "Surgeons think with their scalpel." They train for 8 years or more to think about solving problems surgically. It is the tool in their toolbox. Not to mention, they have a very deep financial interest in people being unable to solve problems on their own--it's their livelihood, and a very good one. 

One thing people forget is that surgeons and doctors in general have a shockingly limited education. They enter premed as undergrads and literally never study anything else. Not only do they have very limited information and experience, but they also tend to be a certain personality type; people who follow directions and test well, and who are comfortable being highly managed by superiors. People who like hierarchy. This doesn't necessarily correlate with other traits like caringness, creativity, flexible thinking, curiosity or appreciation for others. So whenever  you hear some absolute announcement from a surgeon, just remember who you're talking to.

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Posted : 28/06/2019 6:17 am
RamonT liked
Francybe92
Active Member

She is right, you can't achieve that kind of results with mewing. Once you stop growing (past 25) you are done, and even before reaching that age, the results you can achieve are minimal. Mewing has become a religion with blind and often aggressive adepts. We are assisting at a mass delirium. I really hope nobody gets hurt trying to reach impossible results. As the doctor said the only thing you will achieve with mewing (Chewing to be more specific) is TMJ problems. Thinking that she has some interest in saying that mewing doesn't work is just silly.

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Posted : 01/07/2019 4:48 pm
Francybe92
Active Member

I think this kind of results (see link below) are more likely to happen with mewing.

https://www.drstevenlin.com/adult-orthodontics-facial-symmetry-sphenoid-bone/

It reminds me of the 70 years old man who was able to achieve similar results.

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/maxillary-development-in-a-70-year-old-is-clinically-proven/

I think it's healthier for us to discuss this kind of facial improvement instead of a Lefort 1 type of results

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Posted : 01/07/2019 8:00 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member
Posted by: Francybe92

She is right, you can't achieve that kind of results with mewing. Once you stop growing (past 25) you are done, and even before reaching that age, the results you can achieve are minimal. Mewing has become a religion with blind and often aggressive adepts. We are assisting at a mass delirium. I really hope nobody gets hurt trying to reach impossible results. As the doctor said the only thing you will achieve with mewing (Chewing to be more specific) is TMJ problems. Thinking that she has some interest in saying that mewing doesn't work is just silly.

What are you basing this on? Do you have scientific evidence you can only achieve *minimal* results?  

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Posted : 01/07/2019 8:36 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@Francybe92 also, thanks for posting that Dr. Steven Lin link! Seems to add another strong piece of evidence to the 70 year old doctor's results.

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Posted : 01/07/2019 8:55 pm
Francybe92
Active Member

Science does not work this way, the burden of proof is on who makes the claim. if someone says that donkeys fly, it is up to him to prove it, not to the rest of the world to disproof that claim. so far no one has ever shown that mewing gives the same results as a lefort 1, however there are enough cases that confirm both that some parts of the face continue to grow up to 40 years old and that minimal results can be obtained through bone remodeling and even by new bone formation at any age.

If tomorrow you get up with the idea that sun gazin would make you grow taller, I hope you don't come to ask me if I have any evidence to prove the opposite.

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Posted : 01/07/2019 9:11 pm
Francybe92
Active Member

And anyway, with "minimum" I meant not the same results as bimax surgery where the surgeon literally cuts your jaws and repositions them in a different place on your face (and this just after years and years of wearing appliance).

I think (and there are some evidence) that is still possible to achieve good facial aesthetic result at any age, we just need to unlock exactly how.

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Posted : 01/07/2019 9:41 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member
Posted by: Francybe92

Science does not work this way, the burden of proof is on who makes the claim. if someone says that donkeys fly, it is up to him to prove it, not to the rest of the world to disproof that claim. so far no one has ever shown that mewing gives the same results as a lefort 1, however there are enough cases that confirm both that some parts of the face continue to grow up to 40 years old and that minimal results can be obtained through bone remodeling and even by new bone formation at any age.

If tomorrow you get up with the idea that sun gazin would make you grow taller, I hope you don't come to ask me if I have any evidence to prove the opposite.

 

I agree, I am in no way saying there is proof that mewing has demonstrated to be capable of drastic changes in >25 year olds.  However, you presented your own claim, which was to say that mewing *could not* make drastic changes in >25 year olds.  So in response to that, I am challenging you to back up the idea that it is definitively incapable of such change.

 

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Posted : 02/07/2019 12:17 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

Unless she has conducted studies on her own, this kind of statement is unscientific because there simply has not been many studies on mewing after 22.  Maybe she's right, but until studies have been done, it's just another hypothesis.

The weight of claiming lies on people who claim for fact of something existing.

 

So for those claiming mewing works, they bear the weight of proving it works. 

So if both sides have no real proof then the default stance as per logical debating and as per scientific approach is that it has not been proven to work aka does not work. Once it has been proven to work via studies then it can only be disproven by more studies which prove the opposite.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 02/07/2019 11:08 am
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust
Posted by: drunkwithcoffee

Unless she has conducted studies on her own, this kind of statement is unscientific because there simply has not been many studies on mewing after 22.  Maybe she's right, but until studies have been done, it's just another hypothesis.

The weight of claiming lies on people who claim for fact of something existing.

 

So for those claiming mewing works, they bear the weight of proving it works. 

So if both sides have no real proof then the default stance as per logical debating and as per scientific approach is that it has not been proven to work aka does not work. Once it has been proven to work via studies then it can only be disproven by more studies which prove the opposite.

I agree that science holds that is "has not been proven to work" but disagree that logic dictates that science holds that it "does not work."  A hypothesis is a creative, neutral statement, ie. "I think X might work."  When a statement that did not previously exist is presented, science does not automatically hold that the negative is true before the positive is proven.  It simply dictates that "we don't know" until evidence is proven otherwise.  

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Posted : 02/07/2019 12:21 pm
Francybe92
Active Member

Science actually works very differently from what people think.

For a researcher/scientist the starting hypothesis is that a theory is false not true.

The duty of a scientist is not to find facts that confirm a theory, because for any theory, even the most absurd one, you will find some fact that confirms it.

You will always find someone who smoked 40 cigarettes a day and lived till 100 years old. This is not a proof that smoking is safe.

If I want to prove the validity of a theory, my duty is not to find facts that confirm it, but to find facts that deny it, and the more I try to reject my hypothesis and fail, the more my hypothesis gain validity.

In statistics, at the end of an experiment, the hypothesis to be tested (called for this "null hypothesis"), is that my theory is false not that it is true.

And if I reject the null hypothesis, I say that I could not prove that the hypothesis is false. I will never say that I have demonstrated that the hypothesis is true, this because knowledge and truth are two different things. Unfortunately, the truth does not belong to us as humans, but knowledge, instead, belong to us, therefore it is our duty to generate it and interpret it properly.

Otherwise, we would never be able to distinguish what is knowledge from what is simply intuition, opinion, faith or worse deception, superstition or prejudice.

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Posted : 02/07/2019 2:38 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

Ok, I think I see why we're seemingly on different pages.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you're viewing mewing as a claim that has been tested, whereas I see mewing as a relatively new hypothesis.  My issue with the Brazilian surgeon's claim that mewing does not work in older patients is that the testing has essentially not even begun.  There hasn't been any legit standardized trials on mewing in older patients to my knowledge, and the anecdotal evidence online certainly doesn't qualify. 

So to put it in simpler terms, I see any outright rejection right now as rejecting the hypothesis before the experiment has even been done, which makes no logical sense.   

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Posted : 02/07/2019 3:30 pm
Francybe92
Active Member

First, sorry for my English, i may sound a bit rude, but that just because of my inability to use all the English grammar/syntax correctly, also my vocabulary is very limited, so i may sound a bit arrogant, but trust me it's not in my intention to sound like that.

Second i don't speak any Portuguese but, here and there i can understand what the surgeon say.

The patient we saw in the video (as the surgeon say) has functional problem. Apparently he can't chew food correctly whitout excessively loading his TMJ with all the discomfort that this brings.

The surgeon want stress out the she is an oral maxillo-facial surgeon, and she just treat patient who have functional problem not for aesthetic reasons.

Now this is the situation:

The surgeon need to advance the lower jaw by 7 mm and to reposition the uppear jaw to match the lower jaw, plus she need to align the teeth to fit the new position of the two jaws.

She knows that a human face stop growing at a considerably rate between 22-23 years old for male and 19-20 years old for female.

How can you move your jaw forward by 7 mm if your jaw has stopped growing 10 years ago?

Note that we are not talking about remodeling or gaining some bone mass, you literally need to grow your lower jaw forward and at the same time you need to grow your upper jaw forward and realign your teeth to obtain the same results as a bimax surgery, but this is impossible because your face has stopped growing years ago.

So, unless someone discovers a way to restart the facial growing process she is right. You can't obtain with mewing the same result as a bimax surgery past a certain age, and reasonably there is neither a reason to start a sperimentation on that.

Very different story for children and adolescent.

Also Mike Mew know that, and this is why he focuses mainly on children and adolescent.

 

 

 

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Posted : 02/07/2019 6:11 pm
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

Thank you for the context.  I don't understand Portuguese very well (yet) so I wasn't able to fully understand what was going on in the video or what she was saying.

In the case that was presented, I agree with the surgeon's approach practically speaking.  There is not enough time for this patient to experiment with mewing or anything that no one is sure will work.  For health reasons she needs to get her maxilla corrected as soon as possible.

My issue comes with declaring mewing will not work on older patients as scientific fact.  The reality is it has not been tested enough.  Maybe she wasn't even saying that and the translation is making it hard to understand.  But again, for patients like these, I 100% agree that there is no time to wait around and hope something happens.  

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Posted : 02/07/2019 6:24 pm
TGW
 TGW
TGW Admin Admin

Please note that some studies have indicated that suture closure may not be controlled by age but may be related to other biological factors not yet understood due to lack of research available. It is important to also note that the obliteration of skull sutures has never been a reliable tool of age indication, thus telling us that these numbers may or may not accurate.

Notice the wide range of suture fusion dates, into the 60s even. There are many cases where people in their 70s don't have their sutures fused.

Here is the point of contention: In my (and others) opinion, sutures are actually never supposed to fuse. It is medically accepted that the skull bones "breathe" in a rhythm, which helps circulate cerebrospinal fluid (or is caused by the circulation. Chicken and Egg). The bones don't just statically sit beside each other: they move together and apart a miniscule distance at the sutures multiple times per minute. This is well recognized in the fields of osteopathy (actual doctors) and craniosacral therapy.

I think that when this natural rhythm of the bones is disrupted, the bones are "jammed" against each other and the suture starts to fuse due to lack of movement.

And actually in many European and Eastern schools of medicine the sutures are never claimed to fuse at all -  a fused suture is a sign of a jammed-up unhealthy skull.

What happened in the medical/science field was that dentists were no longer able to pull the maxilla forward with protraction devices after the late teens, so they slapped a "fused sutures" sticker on the skull and called it a day. They never attempted to look for another method than brute force pulling, and when it didn't work they assumed it to be impossible due to "fused sutures".

This has now been proven false. There has been very little further research into natural growth . The reason that it seems like the science says this is impossible is because almost nobody is researching how to restart adult growth. We don't have the research because the medical field isn't looking, they're just pushing people off to surgery.

So with the controversial-yet-proven understanding that most adults should still have patent sutures, we're trying to answer the question of how to get growth to begin at the sutures again.

The well-established field of epigenetics (the study of changes in organisms caused by modification of gene expression rather than alteration of the genetic code itself) says that gene expression can be altered by environmental factors.There's no hard limit to when genes stop expression - with the right stimulus and conditions, the dormant gene expression for growth at the sutures should restart in adults since they have not reached their genetic growth potential.

https://jaoa.org/article.aspx?articleid=2093282

https://jaoa.org/article.aspx?articleid=2093179

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25987937

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-estimation-based-on-closure-pattern-of-cranial-and-facial-sutures_tbl3_324941072

https://www.cappskids.org/skull-sutures-when-do-they-close/

 

The signalling for the body to (re)start growth in hidden somewhere inside of us. Is it the breathing? Is it the chewing? Is it the body posture? It is the tongue? It is the nutrition? Is it the mental state?

Is it a combination of everything?

It's not that the cure doesn't exist because it's not academically/scientifically/medically proven; it's that the academics/scientists/medical community haven't been actively looking for a cure. These past few years is the first time that the idea of adult growth guidance has actually become a topic of discussion anywhere. You'll find more people discussing adult growth guidance on this forum than in top dentistry schools. It's just not on their radar.

 

 

 

 

 

 
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Posted : 03/07/2019 10:56 am
Sceriff liked
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@TGW my thoughts exactly.  There have been multiple studies posted here over the last few months that have been convincing as far as debunking the "fused sutures" past a certain age, at least in certain individuals.

The question, of course, is can you create advancement with solely the tongue, which is pretty much what everyone here wants to know.  The problem is that no one is studying this in a scientific way.  If I were to guess, most people who are "mewing" online aren't "mewing" correctly, myself included.  That makes it very difficult to enact science.  

Lack of evidence doesn't confirm that the hypothesis is wrong, especially when the experiment is not being conducted properly in the first place.

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Posted : 03/07/2019 12:17 pm
RamonT
Trusted Member

The only people believing that mewing works for real are the ones really doing it and I am one of them 100%. There's always going to be doubters, even if i post pictures here from the past 10 years and they way i look now someone is gonna come up with something...... like the lighting is different or you are to far away from the camera or you are to close to the camera or what about that beard and so forth, I'd love to spread the word,but honestly I believe it's almost a loosing battle. I suggest one learn how to mew properly and enjoy it the journey. Don't try to convince people to do it, because people want to see result in a week, and that won't happen, mewing take time,dedication, patience and then some and the majorities of people don't have that, i see it everyday and not just with mewing....... You name it =_=. 

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Posted : 03/07/2019 8:09 pm