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Bone formation in skulls

miroir
New Member

I stumbled upon this research, which is not directly related to mewing, but it says something about bone formation in skulls:

https://www.livescience.com/65711-humans-growing-bony-skull-spikes.html

The human head is heavy, weighing about 10 lbs. (4.5 kilograms), and tilting it forward to look at funny cat photos (or however you spend your smartphone time) can strain the neck — hence the crick people sometimes get, known as "text neck." Text neck can increase pressure on the juncture where the neck muscles attach to the skull, and the body likely responds by laying down new bone, which leads to that spiky bump, Shahar told the BBC. This spike distributes the weight of the head over a larger area, he said.

Since this proves that bones can still form after puberty, it gives me hope as an adult that the bones in our skull are still malleable.

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Topic starter Posted : 19/06/2019 10:57 am
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Fred
 Fred
Estimable Member

What does it mean by spiky bump?

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Posted : 19/06/2019 8:51 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: miroir

I stumbled upon this research, which is not directly related to mewing, but it says something about bone formation in skulls:

https://www.livescience.com/65711-humans-growing-bony-skull-spikes.html

The human head is heavy, weighing about 10 lbs. (4.5 kilograms), and tilting it forward to look at funny cat photos (or however you spend your smartphone time) can strain the neck — hence the crick people sometimes get, known as "text neck." Text neck can increase pressure on the juncture where the neck muscles attach to the skull, and the body likely responds by laying down new bone, which leads to that spiky bump, Shahar told the BBC. This spike distributes the weight of the head over a larger area, he said.

Since this proves that bones can still form after puberty, it gives me hope as an adult that the bones in our skull are still malleable.

I dont think anyone doubts that bones remodel in adults. The problem is that the tongue creates too little force compared to how "sturdy" adult bones are.

In your example, its the entire weight of the head resting in a wrong position that causes bone deposition.

I would also argue that bone remodeling is somewhat different to just depositing bone on a single spot

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Posted : 23/06/2019 1:40 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: bundfalke

The problem is that the tongue creates too little force compared to how "sturdy" adult bones are.

What do you view as the minimum required force for inducing structural changes, and how much force is the tongue capable of generating in contrast to this? From monkey studies we know that 500g is sufficient amount to displace maxilla, and from human studies we know that the average untrained tongue can generate ~ 2 kg of pressure against the palate. With this in mind, the goal doesn't seem that unfeasible.

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Posted : 23/06/2019 2:03 pm
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bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: Progress
Posted by: bundfalke

The problem is that the tongue creates too little force compared to how "sturdy" adult bones are.

What do you view as the minimum required force for inducing structural changes, and how much force is the tongue capable of generating in contrast to this? From monkey studies we know that 500g is sufficient amount to displace maxilla, and from human studies we know that the average untrained tongue can generate ~ 2 kg of pressure against the palate. With this in mind, the goal doesn't seem that unfeasible.

 

There is a rather old thread in the forums where people discussed this rather extensively. I dont remember the exact numbers, but i remember the participants of the thread coming to the conclusion that the tongue doesnt generate enough force to induce bone remodeling/turnover in adults, atleast according to the studies/findings they had. I also remember them posting alot of information, studies and sources for their findings. I wish i could find that thread again. 

I would agree that if the tongue pushed against the palate with a force of 2 kg every minute of the day, it would certainly displace the maxilla and/or induce bone remodeling. Here my thoughts:

-People do not press against their palate with all the strength they have. Atleast i dont. For the majority of the day and exspecially at night, my tongue is merely resting against my palate. And thats coming from someone who is probably doing several hundred/few thousand "tongue chews" per day. Its hard for me to believe the tongue generates more than 100g of force in this resting position. Maybe the tongue can generate forces of 2kg with specific motions like chewing, but i dont think thats what we are doing when mewing.

-The maxilla is a large, thick bone and anchored to several different places in your skull. Its not just a "string" of bone and you apply a force on one side of it. Its very thick, exspecially from a vertical viewpoint. We are not trying to move a tiny tooth in the thinn alveolar ridge. We are trying to remodel/displace this large bone structure which is the maxilla. And on top of that, we have to work against all the bones its connected to, too.

-Maybe the forces generated by the tongue are enough to displace/remodel (i wish we knew which one it is) the maxillary bone. But as i said in one of my posts in "helmuts" thread, if these changes occur so slowly that it takes decades to see structural improvements in the face, then these changes become miniscule and meaningless in MY opinion.

I was never discouraged by your own progress specifically, because of the lack of results. I am discouraged by your progress because of the little change which have happened in the span of 4 years. And 4 years is a very very long time, exspecially as a young male.

I know i parrot this sentence over and over again, but in all these years, i have not seen a single adult (including mike and john mew) who were able to provide evidence or clear proof that visible displacement of the maxilla in adults is possible with the tongue alone.

 

 

 

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Posted : 23/06/2019 2:59 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member

I think that mewing could produce results quicker than decades, I highly doubt it’ll take decades of consistent tongue pressure to remodel enough to see decent progress. However, I do have to say that adults should not solely count on mewing alone and should consider undergoing some type of treatment involving a fixed appliance as these treatments have been making major breakthroughs. One breakthrough in particular, the one study you posted @bundfalke about the slow expansion. That’s what most of us need. I am going to also, theoretically speaking, say that we may need to implement something like LIPUS therapy in conjunction with a device like this so we can get some pretty staggering results as adults. I don’t know why more dentists or orthodontists are not implementing  some type of optimized light or ultrasound therapy, or at least aid in warranting more studies for this type of equipment to eventually utilize this technology 

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Posted : 24/06/2019 4:53 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: GoTTi

I think that mewing could produce results quicker than decades, I highly doubt it’ll take decades of consistent tongue pressure to remodel enough to see decent progress. However, I do have to say that adults should not solely count on mewing alone and should consider undergoing some type of treatment involving a fixed appliance as these treatments have been making major breakthroughs. One breakthrough in particular, the one study you posted @bundfalke about the slow expansion. That’s what most of us need. I am going to also, theoretically speaking, say that we may need to implement something like LIPUS therapy in conjunction with a device like this so we can get some pretty staggering results as adults. I don’t know why more dentists or orthodontists are not implementing  some type of optimized light or ultrasound therapy, or at least aid in warranting more studies for this type of equipment to eventually utilize this technology 

This one? http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-72992006000200004&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

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Posted : 24/06/2019 10:48 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: bundfalke
Posted by: GoTTi

I think that mewing could produce results quicker than decades, I highly doubt it’ll take decades of consistent tongue pressure to remodel enough to see decent progress. However, I do have to say that adults should not solely count on mewing alone and should consider undergoing some type of treatment involving a fixed appliance as these treatments have been making major breakthroughs. One breakthrough in particular, the one study you posted @bundfalke about the slow expansion. That’s what most of us need. I am going to also, theoretically speaking, say that we may need to implement something like LIPUS therapy in conjunction with a device like this so we can get some pretty staggering results as adults. I don’t know why more dentists or orthodontists are not implementing  some type of optimized light or ultrasound therapy, or at least aid in warranting more studies for this type of equipment to eventually utilize this technology 

This one? http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-72992006000200004&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

Yes, thank you. That one.

 

What are you thoughts on this btw?

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Posted : 25/06/2019 7:04 am
bundfalke
Trusted Member
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: bundfalke
Posted by: GoTTi

I think that mewing could produce results quicker than decades, I highly doubt it’ll take decades of consistent tongue pressure to remodel enough to see decent progress. However, I do have to say that adults should not solely count on mewing alone and should consider undergoing some type of treatment involving a fixed appliance as these treatments have been making major breakthroughs. One breakthrough in particular, the one study you posted @bundfalke about the slow expansion. That’s what most of us need. I am going to also, theoretically speaking, say that we may need to implement something like LIPUS therapy in conjunction with a device like this so we can get some pretty staggering results as adults. I don’t know why more dentists or orthodontists are not implementing  some type of optimized light or ultrasound therapy, or at least aid in warranting more studies for this type of equipment to eventually utilize this technology 

This one? http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-72992006000200004&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

Yes, thank you. That one.

 

What are you thoughts on this btw?

I mean its great, if we assume the study is legit. A cheap, removeable expander can not only expand your alveolar ridge, it also (somehow) expands the entire mid-face, including the the zygomatic arch. Meaning, forces applied to the teeth/palate/alveolar ridge effects several other bones in your face.

But thats it. Its just an expander. It doesnt displace your maxilla, and it certainly doesnt move it up and forward. Which is what we are all here for.

I'd like to hear @Progress opinion about it.

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Posted : 25/06/2019 12:27 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: bundfalke
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: bundfalke
Posted by: GoTTi

I think that mewing could produce results quicker than decades, I highly doubt it’ll take decades of consistent tongue pressure to remodel enough to see decent progress. However, I do have to say that adults should not solely count on mewing alone and should consider undergoing some type of treatment involving a fixed appliance as these treatments have been making major breakthroughs. One breakthrough in particular, the one study you posted @bundfalke about the slow expansion. That’s what most of us need. I am going to also, theoretically speaking, say that we may need to implement something like LIPUS therapy in conjunction with a device like this so we can get some pretty staggering results as adults. I don’t know why more dentists or orthodontists are not implementing  some type of optimized light or ultrasound therapy, or at least aid in warranting more studies for this type of equipment to eventually utilize this technology 

This one? http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0034-72992006000200004&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

Yes, thank you. That one.

 

What are you thoughts on this btw?

I mean its great, if we assume the study is legit. A cheap, removeable expander can not only expand your alveolar ridge, it also (somehow) expands the entire mid-face, including the the zygomatic arch. Meaning, forces applied to the teeth/palate/alveolar ridge effects several other bones in your face.

But thats it. Its just an expander. It doesnt displace your maxilla, and it certainly doesnt move it up and forward. Which is what we are all here for.

I'd like to hear @Progress opinion about it.

 Thanks for your opinion. Very helpful as always. Yeah, I think Abdul said that the study is actually very promising and falls in line with his personal results so I’m pretty sure that it’s not a scam. I’d like to see a longer duration though. 

 

 I’d also like to see what progress has to say about it as I can relate to him in many ways. How much have you looked into LIPUS? I ask because bio-electric therapy  has done as much as re grow a piece of an adult human finger and, with the right frequency, could stimulate bone healing and really expedite this process. Theoretically speaking,  it will be our best chance at limb regeneration  according to the recent breakthroughs involving this type of stuff. They have induced all types of regrowth  on salamanders and amphibians. It’s also been recently discovered that we share similar mechanisms to salamanders regarding regeneration, but it’s just much more dormant in humanas...especially grown folks. I  believe it has also been shown to yield displacement of the maxilla in rabbits and monkeys (in conjunction with FA’s in monkeys btw)

 

as as a side note, something like tooth resorption is really no risk for us anymore as this device can stimulate literal tooth growth from the route. I firmly believe we will need to implement this type of technology into our treatment protocols to make any type of gains similar to children. This really helps to make the bones more malleable and pliable

 

 One other thing is that a gentleman on this forum has shared with us that one of the leading practitioners for the ALF appliance stated that the appliance gradually splits the mid palatal suture... I’m guessing kind of like how the MSE does (norm literally, but in the same ballpark) If this is true at all, then theoretically speaking we can combine the ALF with some type of procrastination device.  I’d like for us to discover whether or not this specific information regarding the ALF device is true because that would be big 

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Posted : 25/06/2019 12:56 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@GoTTi

"Lipus" sounds quite experimental. Is it even used in the medical field? 

About your last paragraph: Isnt ALF a slow palatal expander?

Its what i wonder. Did the expander in the study above expand the maxilla by simply growing new bone, or by slowly splitting the mid-palatal suture. Is it required to split the midpalatal suture to achieve expansion in the whole midface? Or does expanding the palate via tooth movement also expand the midface (which i thought isnt possible).

Many questions unanswered in the study.

protraction via facemask is possible without splitting the midpalatal suture, because thats what Plato did as far as i know. 

 

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Posted : 26/06/2019 11:13 am
justdoit
Active Member

FWIW, I have been able to use bodily functions of chin tuck, suction hold and tongue pushing in unison to generate forces on my palate to the point where my pain tolerance is the limiting factor. However, it takes immaculate full-body posture, an outstanding amount of mind-muscle connection and concentration to achieve this. In other words, I cannot be multi-tasking (or even thinking about something else) while doing this. I honestly believe that once you have gotten the technique down, it is simply a matter of dedicating yourself to this cause and doing this for many many hours every day and within a year or two, significant change should be apparent.

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Posted : 30/07/2019 4:35 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: @bundfalke

@GoTTi

"Lipus" sounds quite experimental. Is it even used in the medical field? 

About your last paragraph: Isnt ALF a slow palatal expander?

Its what i wonder. Did the expander in the study above expand the maxilla by simply growing new bone, or by slowly splitting the mid-palatal suture. Is it required to split the midpalatal suture to achieve expansion in the whole midface? Or does expanding the palate via tooth movement also expand the midface (which i thought isnt possible).

Many questions unanswered in the study.

protraction via facemask is possible without splitting the midpalatal suture, because thats what Plato did as far as i know. 

 

Sorry I missed this response man, but you raise some good points. I too would like to have a bit more of a detailed look into that study, but overall I find that study very promising. So does Abdul since it sort of mirrors his experience with expansion. 

About Plato, yea, that's what he did... but the thing is, he also combined face pulling with ncr. So did patient xero. This was done is Plato's 30's too btw. On the NCR site it had a little area of text where it said that one of Dr. Dean Howell's  clients achieved roughly 1cm of forward expansion from ncr in conjunction with wearing a facemax. Very interesting. It would be kind of cool to create a q&a for these 3 guys right here. @TGW can that be done somehow bro?

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Posted : 02/08/2019 4:27 pm