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Big Lips = Big Maxilla? Arguments against closed mouth chewing  

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facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

While genetics do play a role, to me there seems to be a large corrolation with maxilla width/ogee curve, and lip size. 

Almost all of the best looking models with wide maxillas have good looking lips.

Africans generally have larger maxillas and bigger lips.

Many models I see with thinner lips, have a more rectangle looking face, kinda like brad pit, and Mike mew. 

I found out about mewing in March and have been dedicated to only closed mouth chewing for 8 months. Well, great news, my maxilla has recessed, both backwards and inwards, the asthetic curve I had on the left and right side of my face are gone, and my top lip has become smaller, with a bigger chin due to increased mentalis usage. The bottom lip is now too big. The chin has gone from medium sized asthetically pointing diagonally downwards, to one which is pointing more forwards and is closer to my bottom lip, creating a strange look. Kinda like Roger federers chin, its just way too much now. 

On to open mouth chewing it is then, I'm not sure how it will change what muscles are used around the maxilla, but hopefully I get my cheekbones back. 

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Posted : 02/11/2019 8:40 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Africans don't have large maxilla bones. Their maxilla is no larger nor more projected than any other ethnic group. What Africans have are less robust and more neotenous facial structure that allows their soft tissue to predominate vs their bony features. They also have vertically shorter faces than Europeans which helps their philtrum be shorter and their face appear smaller (thus making fleshy features stand out more).

Where Africans have an appearance of a larger maxilla also lies in the fact their midface is also shorter than Europeans and Asians. This coupled with a vertically short face makes the African maxilla look larger than the European maxilla, when it actuality their size is almost identical. What Europeans have (especially women) are larger mandibles and a taller ramus. 

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Posted : 02/11/2019 6:35 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Anyway, on to your post, do you have pics of what your progress is? Have you been closed mouth chewing only and without mewing? What would make you think closing your mouth would recess your maxilla?

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Posted : 02/11/2019 11:18 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

Decicated tounge posture since March. Bascially forcing my tounge up and pushing upwards and sideways with most force coming from posterior third. Quite hard for a few months. Last 4 months I started swallowing properly, and mewing less hard.

Yes closed mouth chewing only.

Chin tucking fixed my turkey neck within a few weeks, so iv'e had a straighter neck posture the whole time. 

I am a little shy about posting the pics, but I've taken photos with the same:camera, distance, angle, expression, position in the frame etc. Basically the exact same photo months apart. 

Why the maxilla recession? Based on what you have said in other posts about hypodivergent faces (not saying i have that type), I assume I have liffted the back dental arch and maxilla from all the pressure of posterior mewing and posterior chewing, resulted in an even further clockwise rotated maxilla. I have also developed a habit of resisting yawning, as I thought exeserbaiting my downwards growth with a big downwards yawn would only make my face longer or harm progress.

When you bite down, the temporalis and masseter are engaged, and when we yawn and open mouth to chew, we shrink the temporalis and push out the middle area between the masseter and temporalis. The area i refer to is right in front of the ears. I have not been engaging that area at all for a solid 6 months, because I have not been opening my mouth ...... only very minimal opening during yawning and eating. 

I am open mouth chewing right now and engaging this very area. 

I found a mewer on youtube who looks like he has a boomerang on each side of his head, poor guy. I'm just glad I didn't get that bad, I only have a small boomerang on my left and a straight line on my right.

IMO it's even uglier than having a long narrow face. I don't think John Mew looks that bad.

 

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Posted : 03/11/2019 3:00 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

@eddiemoney

Decicated tounge posture since March. Bascially forcing my tounge up and pushing upwards and sideways with most force coming from posterior third. Quite hard for a few months. Last 4 months I started swallowing properly, and mewing less hard.

Yes closed mouth chewing only.

Chin tucking fixed my turkey neck within a few weeks, so iv'e had a straighter neck posture the whole time. 

I am a little shy about posting the pics, but I've taken photos with the same:camera, distance, angle, expression, position in the frame etc. Basically the exact same photo months apart. 

Why the maxilla recession? Based on what you have said in other posts about hypodivergent faces (not saying i have that type), I assume I have liffted the back dental arch and maxilla from all the pressure of posterior mewing and posterior chewing, resulted in an even further clockwise rotated maxilla. I have also developed a habit of resisting yawning, as I thought exeserbaiting my downwards growth with a big downwards yawn would only make my face longer or harm progress.

When you bite down, the temporalis and masseter are engaged, and when we yawn and open mouth to chew, we shrink the temporalis and push out the middle area between the masseter and temporalis. The area i refer to is right in front of the ears. I have not been engaging that area at all for a solid 6 months, because I have not been opening my mouth ...... only very minimal opening during yawning and eating. 

I am open mouth chewing right now and engaging this very area. 

I found a mewer on youtube who looks like he has a boomerang on each side of his head, poor guy. I'm just glad I didn't get that bad, I only have a small boomerang on my left and a straight line on my right.

IMO it's even uglier than having a long narrow face. I don't think John Mew looks that bad.

 

Hard to tell what you mean without pics. But I can say posterior third engagement won't push your posterior third up whatsoever. So if you think that happened, it didn't.

Don't resist yawning or any natural body motion. You will be fine. Downward growth happens due to muscle non usage, not muscle usage. Downward grown faces are always hypotonic.

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Posted : 03/11/2019 11:39 am
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

I don't think it's downward growth. Last year I had downward growth due to mainly open mouth sleeping. The jaw and maxilla went back.

This year (while mewing the whole time) I have recessed my cheekbones with my mewing practises. Plain and simple. And it's not an illusion due to a bigger head and masseters. The head wider, masseters a little bit wider, and maxilla a fair bit smaller. 

In terms of size out of 10, its gone from 6 Head,  8 Maxilla and 6 Jaw.........to 7 Head 6 Maxilla and 7 Jaw.

My better developed right side is a straight line and the left side is actually inverted. 

Just look at someone with a decent ogee curve, then imagine it disappears and now the head is just a rectangle. thats what happened

Just to be clear, I have lined up everything perfectly and then actually just cropped out the forehead and jaw to completly isolate the maxilla. It is smaller.

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Posted : 03/11/2019 8:14 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

When the maxilla widens, it pushes the bones around it out. This in turn makes the nasal bones sometimes protrude more, even if the midface itself shortens. This is probably why your maxilla looks smaller, because the rest of your bones are looking more prominent. The nasolabial angle in some can actually increase. It did for me. Did your philtrum get longer? That is a sign your lips would appear smaller.

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Posted : 03/11/2019 10:12 pm
Fred
 Fred
Estimable Member

Are we talking about Africa-Americans or the ones in Africa? 

Africans tend to be normal, their diets are harder and they are breast fed more than people in regiond like Europe. With AMs it is a hit or miss, they are americanized so you'll have more poorly developed people than those in Africa. 

And it's just another racial difference. Africans have heavier jaws, prognathism, narrower hips, shorter femurs, and many other genetic differences. 

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Posted : 04/11/2019 12:04 am
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@eddiemoney

 Yeah it looks like my nasolabial angle has increased slightly the upper lip sticks out less and looks worse. I assune this is because i stopped using it and only used the bottom and mentalis when I was chewing food, so my mentolabial fold angle has decreased, bringing the chin further up. Overall lower third is just worse looking. 

I think filtrum length is about the same. 

But again, I look worse than I did before I statrted. Easy 1 or 2 points worse out of ten. Not even analysing anything just looking at photos from march and thinking "i looked much better"

also my face was much tighter when i smiled, but now theres, alot more cheek skin poking horizonally outwards when i smile, even though my face looks less fat when resting

just to confirm. when an angle increases it goes from 90 to 180 

and an angle decrease is from 180 to 90, so the angle gets smaller

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Posted : 04/11/2019 7:20 am
LizzyBennet
Active Member

If your chin has gone from pointing downwards to vertically shorter and to a more horizontal projection, isn't that a good thing? That's one of the things that a lot of people on this site, including myself, are trying to achieve. It means your face is changing from a downward grown face (due to bad tongue/head posture, for example) to a more ideal form. And I think Federer's chin looks fine...

The fact that your bottom lip has got bigger means that your mandible has come forward, yes? The mandible sliding forward would mean that the there is better teeth support for the bottom lip, which is why it would look larger. Again, that is not a bad result. I would love it if I could get that kind of result!

What is it that you wish to achieve from mewing? As in, what are the current health or aesthetic problems you are looking to correct? 

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Posted : 04/11/2019 8:28 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @fred

Are we talking about Africa-Americans or the ones in Africa? 

Africans tend to be normal, their diets are harder and they are breast fed more than people in regiond like Europe. With AMs it is a hit or miss, they are americanized so you'll have more poorly developed people than those in Africa. 

And it's just another racial difference. Africans have heavier jaws, prognathism, narrower hips, shorter femurs, and many other genetic differences. 

My pics are based on skulls found in Africa. West African skulls don't have heavier jaws than Europeans whatsoever. Having tooth inclination variances doesn't mean they have heavier jaws. Actually, African skulls have some of the least robust jaws compared to Asians and Europeans.

Notice the shorter vertical height of the African skull. African skulls are actually known for their LACK of bony prominence and neotenous facial form, including an absent/weak brow, a small chin, a small mandible, and a flat forehead. 

African skeletons actually don't grow out as much as European skeletons do, which is why their hips are narrower / skulls are smaller and less bony in their protrusion. This also is why they are much less porous /more sturdy than European skeletons and not as susceptible to breakage through osteopenia/osteoporosis. Small and compact vs large with less density. 

When it comes to ladies particularly, the largest and most robust jaws are always European. With men the difference is less pronounced. The differences in bite structure do mean that Europeans tend to more deep bites (Class 2 Div 2) where Africans are more open bite / Heavy overjet (Class 2 Div 1). But assuming correct posture and optimal development, an African face will have less bony protrusion on average. What Africans have are sometimes proportionately larger teeth, however. 

 

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Posted : 04/11/2019 8:46 am
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Small and compact vs large with less density

Interesting, that could explain because africans are not good swimmers... Or Is It a b*****it?

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Posted : 04/11/2019 9:28 am
LizzyBennet
Active Member

Yes. Africans have higher bone density than other races, plus, have longer legs, both of which are negative when it comes to swimming.

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Posted : 04/11/2019 9:32 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

You mentioned chin tucking and fixing your neck posture.

From my own experience chin tucking and push swallowing for weeks on end i also thought my face looked worse because we dont realize how much cyphosis, forward neck and atlas pressure we had before. I used to have my head tilted back and forward. We literally look ourselves different on the mirror. You may mimic the neck posture but your spine is at a different angle and your muscle usage and soft tissue displacement is totally different from when you started. Due to months mewing. 

You most likely look the same or a little better if you went back to your old neck and head postures

Chin tucking and hard swallowing Will create a spinal Change that put your skull into place but push your facial soft tissue forwards. When youre recessed it has no bone support and your face Will look droopier. Even tho you may be doing it right it looks worse.

I have an orthopedic appliance on right now its my 2nd week and my face looks longer. But it aligns my midlines and is forcing my skull back to the Middle. I can feel my body posture changing due to the vertical control aspect of the appliance that aims to fix my occlusal plane.

I also suggest you stop hardmewing. Its forceful and isnt any Faster.

One thing ive noticed the most since ivstarted using the appliances is how important a gentle lip seal is. Hardmewing Will mess with facial balance, cervical spine and cortisol levels.

Gentle mewing, weight lifting with a mouth guard and stretching/body posture is the way in my opinion.

But more thn any of this insuggest you just go for any orthopedic appliance if you can afford it.

If youre not assymetric, no midline deviations, no tilts etc and you just have a narrow arch with not much crowiding. Get One of those expanders from braceshop.

Even if it just tips your teeth and gives you 2mm i can tell you mewing wise that its a huge difference

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Posted : 04/11/2019 12:18 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@lizzybennet

No it's not a good thing for a chin to be as high as possible. Imagine your chin right under you bottom lip with a mentolanial fold of 30 degrees. 

It looks worse.

This all happened because I was closed mouth chewing and attempting to not move my lips at all when eating, resulting in my lower lip moving with my jaw every bite. 

The lower lip has been pushed out so the mentalis and chin has been pulled up and pushed further out due to increased usage. 

All while my maxilla has become worse.

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Posted : 04/11/2019 4:18 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@roflcopters

Appreciate the response

It's an interesting idea about the soft tissue being pushed forward when we chin tuck. However, for me, the face is simply more flat. 

You may be correct to an extent, because now when I cheesy smile my cheek skin goes out really wide and looks ugly, as opposed to in March, when my face was a little chubby but the skin was still relitively compact when I smiled.

But the cheekbones and ogee curve have recessed, and under eye support is worse. I have compared photos and it's just more hollow under the eye, and I now have dark circles 24/7. 

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Posted : 06/11/2019 7:50 am
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: @facegettingworseandworse

@roflcopters

Appreciate the response

It's an interesting idea about the soft tissue being pushed forward when we chin tuck. However, for me, the face is simply more flat. 

You may be correct to an extent, because now when I cheesy smile my cheek skin goes out really wide and looks ugly, as opposed to in March, when my face was a little chubby but the skin was still relitively compact when I smiled.

But the cheekbones and ogee curve have recessed, and under eye support is worse. I have compared photos and it's just more hollow under the eye, and I now have dark circles 24/7. 

I went trough the same stuff dude.

You're underestimating what i said over focusing on looks.

Your neck is probably stiff as a board.

Ching tucking, hard swallowing and mewing will not recess your maxilla. Wolfs law. You can't possibly be putting backwards pressure when doing any of the exercises you mentioned, even the closed mouth chewing.

Go for a few runs and stop mewing for a week and you'll see your face looks exactly the same or a bit better as it did before you started mewing.

Im serious, try to relax.. push your lower belly out as much as you can and breathe from your diaphragm. Forget about mewing for a week and you'll realise what im saying.

Mewing isn't supposed to make you look good. Not on the short term.  WHY?

Chin tucking is very powerful, probably the most powerful tool when combined with mewing/swallowing. The thing is.. 

Your spine, your head position and your soft tissue will adapt and shift in position due to mewing/tucking very very very much faster compared then ANY bone changes you may experience.

1. Your skull and cervical spine being upright due to chin tucking happens in 1 week easily? 

2. More facial muscle mass, different facial muscle usage and hypertrophy happens in 1 week easily?

3. The soft tissue on your face WILL ALSO follow that forward movement as easily because its being pushed.

4. BONE CHANGES..?? They don't happen in 1 week..!! Thts the whole thing about mewing dude..

You can't expect to be heavy chin tucking and growing bone at the same rate as you make changes in your spine/skull position.

It will and does push the soft tissue forward AND because you lack bone growth there is no support for it)

I bet you i'm right here.

 

Also..

Heavy chin tucking will fux with mid upper, lower back and hips IF you don't complement it with other stretches. If your back starts cracking too much i suggest you calm down on the hardswalling and chin tucking cause you may be risking a hypermobile spine due to no muscle support and alot of "good-to-bad" body postures.

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Posted : 06/11/2019 5:30 pm
facegettingworseandworse
Eminent Member

@roflcopters

I apprecite these responses. 

While overall I agree with what you are saying, again I say with sadness that my maxilla and/or zygomatic arch has recessed.

The zygomatic arch is physically more narrow, no amount of soft tissue pushed forward is going to do that. 

 

I am 100% certain, and would bet my entire face, that in 9 months the imaginary line between the very ends of each ogee curve, is now shorter. There is nothing more to debate. It is confirmed with multiple absolutely perfect comparison pictures. 

The cheekbones are clearly also further back, but it is more difficult to be 100% percent certain for reasons that you bring up. 

 

Question... how does your explanation explain how under eye support gets worse? You said the same thing happened to you, but i'm not following how pushed forward soft tissue can create bags under the eyes.........     Although I suppose that increased tissue without bone support could create more of a 'hollow' appearance to the under eye when smiling, but how would this create the bags?

 

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Posted : 09/11/2019 5:59 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

How do you know you didn't just gain fat?

 

 

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Posted : 09/11/2019 3:23 pm