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Been mewing for 5 years....is it worth it?  

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Jawanomics
Eminent Member

Results aren't drastic like you are all hoping for. Well if you start after your teens they're not.

 

Having good oral posture probably is a positive, getting it to be the norm and never thinking about it again is ideal. 'hard mewing' is just a sure fire way to spike cortisol and a mental drain. Almost like a tick or twitch or beyond that...self harm. You mew harder when you hate your face the most.

Chewing is worth doing with gum, but get noob gains and then just stick to a harder diet. Hamster cheeks look bad from overdeveloped masseters...Mike Mew is a prime example, particularly if you have a skinny neck.

The best thing you can do with your knowledge is raise your children on a harder diet and accept your face.

Any questions ask away and no i didn't take measurements or pictures on my journey. 

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Posted : 28/05/2019 7:18 pm
Freddie
Eminent Member

I had drastic changes, especially «front face » changes from 5 month of correct posture (Started at 19). I think that if you have proper overall posture and always apply force on different part of your palate (what i do) your results can be outstanding. 

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Posted : 28/05/2019 8:26 pm
Freddie
Eminent Member

If it just doesn’t work for you especially for many years you should go through appliance. Mse, Fagga..etc Ronald is 27 and had pretty good result with it. https://ronaldead.com/

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Posted : 28/05/2019 8:35 pm
Freddie
Eminent Member

Although it seems that you have a pretty low self esteem and I think that someone who can not see himself through a mirror and already accept himself shouldn’t having any hope with posture correction and should go through surgery or getting some mental help. Lot of people here hate themself and think that mewing will give them the look they need but that is just the people who have the lower result. People who already accept themself can only growth in the good way and getting better.. that is the people who get the best result 

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Posted : 28/05/2019 8:43 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

Like Freddie, I never bought into the idea that change has to take many years. To me, it has been evident straight from the beginning that once one locks in to the correct technique, change can be achieved in mere months. Faces can degenerate remarkably in a matter of months, thus the reverse must logically be true too. The main obstacle in this process is getting to a point where you understand the nuances of what you need to do, and then being able to succesfully implement it. For me this has taken almost three years of unconventional experimentation and anatomical study, which is finally beginning to bear fruit. Day by day, I acquire a stronger comprehension of what brought me here and where I need to go, beyond rudimentary, vague sentiments of 'facial upswing'.

If you pardon me for speaking directly, I suspect that you have not been willing to put in the required effort. You speak of striving to reach a point where you never have to think about mewing again. If you ponder over it for a moment, you may realize that almost nothing in life happens this way. Even bare maintenance against entropy requires effort, let alone significant improvement. This is why I view the "change takes years" attitude potentially misleading. It encourages half-assing. It encourages forgettance. "If I just rest my tongue on the palate, perhaps in ten years I will be good looking". Change takes whatever it takes, and the more you work for it, the less it is going to take.

Moreover, approaching all of this as primary means of becoming better looking, increasing social value or other egoistical reasons is unsustainable. In my opinion, it is proper to view self-improvement of any kind as a spiritual path, as something that grounds you to reality instead of lulling you into fantasies about the perfect future-you. The simple act of building a relationship with your physical body and using it to bring yourself closer towards the fully blossomed 'you' should be deeply satisfying in itself. If it isn't - you may be right in your hunch that this is not worth it.

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Posted : 28/05/2019 9:52 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I second what @Progress has said. Also, it's an entire body reprogramming that has to happen. Tongue posture is only the beginning. I am aware more and more of mere facial muscle actions. And this is only 1.5 years in. I started late 2017 almost 2018. So not even 2 years I am aware of more going on with my body than people who have done it more years than I. Have you really taken the time to learn your body and your face is the way it is or have you spent all that time towards hating your face?

Also, get off lookism. It isn't the least bit healthy. Even if lookism is true, nobody benefits from such a negative echo chamber. In the time you were reading some useless thread about how "German Chad kills English HQNP girlfriend for no reason" you could have been learning what muscles you may be using improperly and working on action plan to fix it. 

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Posted : 28/05/2019 11:09 pm
ITZY_BITZY
Active Member

i don't even want a wide jaw.... just my mid face get shorter only few mm ... but nope no changes after almost 2 years....... 

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Posted : 28/05/2019 11:17 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

The thing is we can never know if anyone spending 2+ years on this is even using the right technique. User error is VERY likely. 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 12:40 am
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@progress wow, this is prose.  Beautifully stated.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 12:44 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

Like Freddie, I never bought into the idea that change has to take many years. To me, it has been evident straight from the beginning that once one locks in to the correct technique, change can be achieved in mere months. Faces can degenerate remarkably in a matter of months, thus the reverse must logically be true too. The main obstacle in this process is getting to a point where you understand the nuances of what you need to do, and then being able to succesfully implement it. For me this has taken almost three years of unconventional experimentation and anatomical study, which is finally beginning to bear fruit. Day by day, I acquire a stronger comprehension of what brought me here and where I need to go, beyond rudimentary, vague sentiments of 'facial upswing'.

If you pardon me for speaking directly, I suspect that you have not been willing to put in the required effort. You speak of striving to reach a point where you never have to think about mewing again. If you ponder over it for a moment, you may realize that almost nothing in life happens this way. Even bare maintenance against entropy requires effort, let alone significant improvement. This is why I view the "change takes years" attitude potentially misleading. It encourages half-assing. It encourages forgettance. "If I just rest my tongue on the palate, perhaps in ten years I will be good looking". Change takes whatever it takes, and the more you work for it, the less it is going to take.

Moreover, approaching all of this as primary means of becoming better looking, increasing social value or other egoistical reasons is unsustainable. In my opinion, it is proper to view self-improvement of any kind as a spiritual path, as something that grounds you to reality instead of lulling you into fantasies about the perfect future-you. The simple act of building a relationship with your physical body and using it to bring yourself closer towards the fully blossomed 'you' should be deeply satisfying in itself. If it isn't - you may be right in your hunch that this is not worth it.

lol, I knew that was coming: "if you didn't get results, you were not doing it right", yet they all fail to produce the results they speak of.

 

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my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 29/05/2019 1:11 am
Mangas77
Eminent Member

@Jawanomics, have you tried facepulling or installed an appliance to help foster your jaw expansion besides mewing ? Btw, could we have a pic of your jaw ? It would be interesting to see what it currently looks like after 5 years of mewing.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 1:30 am
Jawanomics
Eminent Member
Posted by: Freddie

If it just doesn’t work for you especially for many years you should go through appliance. Mse, Fagga..etc Ronald is 27 and had pretty good result with it. https://ronaldead.com/

They would reject me, i have probably an above average developed face for today's standards...i obviously just want better.

 

a lot like how i am 6ft but would prefer to be 6ft 3.

 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 5:20 am
Jawanomics
Eminent Member

Give me a min and i will try and get some pics, but i will PM.

 

i don't do facepulling but believe in it, check my cre ated threads on here and you will see a YouTube video. What i do is eat raw carrots every day and when i bite into them i pull, basically a tearing action.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 5:25 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Consider getting coaching / consultations with AstroSky.

I also highly suggest to take pictures and track your measurements / progress / photos. It helps a lot, imagination and visualization is a powerful thing for the mind. It helps you stay focused on the path.

What kind of mewing have you done? If you haven't tried hard mewing AND you are over 25, I would suggest to give Hard Mewing a try

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Posted : 29/05/2019 5:33 am
Jawanomics
Eminent Member

How do you even PM?

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Posted : 29/05/2019 6:07 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

You have to go to 'Personal Messages'at the top of the website and hit 'New message' 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 8:17 am
Jawanomics
Eminent Member

Yeah i kind of worked it out prior, it just seems like a backdoor method rather than the actual.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 8:41 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Progress

Like Freddie, I never bought into the idea that change has to take many years. To me, it has been evident straight from the beginning that once one locks in to the correct technique, change can be achieved in mere months. Faces can degenerate remarkably in a matter of months, thus the reverse must logically be true too. The main obstacle in this process is getting to a point where you understand the nuances of what you need to do, and then being able to succesfully implement it. For me this has taken almost three years of unconventional experimentation and anatomical study, which is finally beginning to bear fruit. Day by day, I acquire a stronger comprehension of what brought me here and where I need to go, beyond rudimentary, vague sentiments of 'facial upswing'.

If you pardon me for speaking directly, I suspect that you have not been willing to put in the required effort. You speak of striving to reach a point where you never have to think about mewing again. If you ponder over it for a moment, you may realize that almost nothing in life happens this way. Even bare maintenance against entropy requires effort, let alone significant improvement. This is why I view the "change takes years" attitude potentially misleading. It encourages half-assing. It encourages forgettance. "If I just rest my tongue on the palate, perhaps in ten years I will be good looking". Change takes whatever it takes, and the more you work for it, the less it is going to take.

Moreover, approaching all of this as primary means of becoming better looking, increasing social value or other egoistical reasons is unsustainable. In my opinion, it is proper to view self-improvement of any kind as a spiritual path, as something that grounds you to reality instead of lulling you into fantasies about the perfect future-you. The simple act of building a relationship with your physical body and using it to bring yourself closer towards the fully blossomed 'you' should be deeply satisfying in itself. If it isn't - you may be right in your hunch that this is not worth it.

lol, I knew that was coming: "if you didn't get results, you were not doing it right", yet they all fail to produce the results they speak of.

 

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I was contemplating on not even stating it, because I too am aware of how cliche and self-rightous thing it is to say. Yet, it is the only rational explanation I can come up with for why some get results and others don't. Age clearly is not the issue. Nearly every single person who has produced evidence (regardless of how rudimentary and unscientific) of their change, has emphasized how much effort they have been giving to the process. It's not necessarily even a matter of doing the right or the wrong thing, but doing the right thing to an extent of consistency that actually achieves something. Knowing in your nervous system how to correctly operate the body is not enough if you are not strong enough in your musculature to move the weigh of your body. This is why merely programming the tongue to stay on the palate is not always enough, as simply plastering the tongue up there does not automatically connect oral posture to any larger anatomical process (especially when you are suffering from an anatomy-restricting collapsed cranial structure). The nervous system and the musculature are self-supporting closed circuits, so it would not be wrong to say that proper posture begins from the toes and the fingers just as much as it begins from the tongue and the jaws.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 8:50 am
Sceriff liked
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@Progress

"I can come up with for why some get results and others don't."

What results? In all these years, i have literally seen only a single adult who managed to have any facial change with mewing.

Its this woman from John Mews website

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Posted : 29/05/2019 9:03 am
Jawanomics
Eminent Member

...and their ears are never in the same position. All before and after are lifting the chin more.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 9:09 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: bundfalke

@Progress

"I can come up with for why some get results and others don't."

What results? In all these years, i have literally seen only a single adult who managed to have any facial change with mewing.

Its this woman from John Mews website

You can go have a look at the latest posts in my thread and decide for yourself what to make of my seemingly resolving maxillary protrusion. Depending on your disposition, you will either reject or accept the legitimacy of what I am sharing. Since this outcome is very little up to me, you might understand why I am not interested in trying to justify myself further. You will either get it or not.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 9:38 am
EddieMoney and Arkey liked
bundfalke
Trusted Member

@Progress Its always really really (really) (really) really, really hard to determine any change when someone is having different beard lengths in each progression photo.

If i understood you correctly, you are not shaving your beard because theres no change in your chin. Any amount of forward or upward movement of the maxilla should effect your mandible.

 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 10:34 am
drunkwithcoffee
Trusted Member

@abdulrahman I recall you noting yourself that Progress had made clear improvements in his thread, no?

And this is the reality.  Mewing is so nascent that we see all these threads from people saying they haven't experienced any changes in X number of months and we have no way to verify whether they've actually been practicing proper tongue posture, or just think they have.  Lots of people are expecting drastic changes for minimal work.  How many out there are actually giving it the level of detail/effort that you or Progress are?

So it's totally fair to bring up effort imo.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 10:45 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: bundfalke

@Progress Its always really really (really) (really) really, really hard to determine any change when someone is having different beard lengths in each progression photo.

If i understood you correctly, you are not shaving your beard because theres no change in your chin. Any amount of forward or upward movement of the maxilla should effect your mandible.

 

I understand your frustration, but anything the beard is concealing is of little significance in contrast to the upper and middle third changes that have occurred due to maxillary CCW rotation. If I end up visibly affecting the length of my ramus, the angle of my antegonial notch or the size of my chin, I will of course do whatever is necessary to highlight these changes.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 10:50 am
bundfalke
Trusted Member

But shouldnt CCW rotation of the maxilla effect your cheekbones? I admit i do see change in the shape of your upper lip and even your nose in one picture, even though i cant say how much of that can be attributed to the difference in distance and angle taken by the photos. But looking at so many skulls and maxillas i would certainly think ccw rotation would result in more prominent cheekbones.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 11:13 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: bundfalke

But shouldnt CCW rotation of the maxilla effect your cheekbones? I admit i do see change in the shape of your upper lip and even your nose in one picture, even though i cant say how much of that can be attributed to the difference in distance and angle taken by the photos. But looking at so many skulls and maxillas i would certainly think ccw rotation would result in more prominent cheekbones.

While I'm relucant to make such generalizations due to the multidimensionality of CFD and the unique ways in which it manifests, I suspect that in general proper mastication develops cheekbones more than maxillary rotation in itself. Mandibular functioning is something I have only recently got under better control. This may also play into why there is not much to show in regards to the lower third.

That being said, my zygos have possibly increased in lateral projection based on the comments from my family, but this of course would be difficult to observe from a perpendicular side view.

 

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Posted : 29/05/2019 12:07 pm
Timbertiger
Eminent Member

I think results have everything to do with effort. I half heartedly mewed for 2 years or so achieving absolutely nothing. In contrast, I've been hard mewing all day every day for the past 4 months and have already opened up most of the space needed for my missing premolars. I think the differing results are due to the 2 different types of patients we learned about in nursing school: those with an external locus of control vs those with an internal locus. The external locus group seldom get better and are always blaming everything that goes wrong with themselves on external circumstance. The latter group are self driven and always get better faster and are out of the hospital sooner. To completely ignore self motivation is to exclude human nature.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 3:47 pm
RamonT liked
ForTheFuture
Active Member

I'll chime in and say that I believe proper head posture is crucial to get any kind of facial development. Not only is there noticeably more pressure to the palate if you mew hard and then go from bad to good neck posture and vice versa, but I notice quite often that if my neck posture is on point, then I'll automatically mew, whereas if my neck posture is poor, I'll catch myself not mewing at all quite often. I tend to get worse neck posture while on the computer, especially when the muscles required to maintain good posture are weakened maybe due to poor sleep, eating or working out habits, or just that I'm not engaging the core enough.

And neck posture, as we know, is closely related to body posture. If you want results, I think working out to train core, back, glutes, basically all muscles that need to be engaged to have proper sitting and standing posture is a good idea, as well as consciously training yourself to have a slight engagement in the core while walking and even sitting. Doing this, your general posture will become better, and as a result your neck posture, which again affects face posture.

This is also why I think chin tucks are underrated. They promote good posture. They shouldn't be done for 5-10 minutes a day, they should be done all the time. I believe big changes can be made, but only if you perform all these things perfecly 24/7 at all times, as well as add something that improves chewing strength into the mix. There is a lot more to "mewing" than just oral posture. That alone won't do anything other than at least in my case, retain the tooth position after retainers are taken out. But expansion is yet ot happen, and I know this in my case is pretty much directly linked to sitting posture and neck posture, both of which are quite mediocre.

Also, if you spend a lot of time sitting every day, look into ergonomics! Simply elevating the screen to proper level can massively affect your posture. Laptops are very bad in terms of posture because they force you to look down, and then craning the neck forwards becomes natural to do, hunching over to type also becomes the norm.

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Posted : 29/05/2019 4:52 pm
dm222
Trusted Member

for adults if you have imbalance in the musculuture of the face caused by incorrect posture, chewing, swalling etc. it will help

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Posted : 29/05/2019 7:03 pm
Jawanomics
Eminent Member

I think to get good results you would need a combination of forward maxilla, palate expansion and ramus lengthening. Now the first two i can accept could happen...the ramus lengthening not so much.

 

for your chin to come forward you need two things...jaw line to lengthen or ramus to lengthen and making your gonial angle lower making your jawline having a flatter more forward path. I just doubt either will happen so chin rotation is cope.

 

only true looksmax is beard...which is the basis of success stories on here.

 

i need beard

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Posted : 29/05/2019 9:02 pm
Jawanomics
Eminent Member
Posted by: sharkinator

so @jawanomics did your palate get wider or not.

 

I would say yes...i have a medium myobrace and a large. Originally medium did fit, then when i tried large it fit but you could feel forces and hurt. When i start using again after about a year it fit fairly comfortable and not much forces. I don't bother now.

 

i think large is 40mm IMW...ideally they would release 42mm and 44mm and i would expand to there.

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Posted : 30/05/2019 5:59 am
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member
Posted by: ForTheFuture

I'll chime in and say that I believe proper head posture is crucial to get any kind of facial development. Not only is there noticeably more pressure to the palate if you mew hard and then go from bad to good neck posture and vice versa, but I notice quite often that if my neck posture is on point, then I'll automatically mew, whereas if my neck posture is poor, I'll catch myself not mewing at all quite often. I tend to get worse neck posture while on the computer, especially when the muscles required to maintain good posture are weakened maybe due to poor sleep, eating or working out habits, or just that I'm not engaging the core enough.

And neck posture, as we know, is closely related to body posture. If you want results, I think working out to train core, back, glutes, basically all muscles that need to be engaged to have proper sitting and standing posture is a good idea, as well as consciously training yourself to have a slight engagement in the core while walking and even sitting. Doing this, your general posture will become better, and as a result your neck posture, which again affects face posture.

This is also why I think chin tucks are underrated. They promote good posture. They shouldn't be done for 5-10 minutes a day, they should be done all the time. I believe big changes can be made, but only if you perform all these things perfecly 24/7 at all times, as well as add something that improves chewing strength into the mix. There is a lot more to "mewing" than just oral posture. That alone won't do anything other than at least in my case, retain the tooth position after retainers are taken out. But expansion is yet ot happen, and I know this in my case is pretty much directly linked to sitting posture and neck posture, both of which are quite mediocre.

Also, if you spend a lot of time sitting every day, look into ergonomics! Simply elevating the screen to proper level can massively affect your posture. Laptops are very bad in terms of posture because they force you to look down, and then craning the neck forwards becomes natural to do, hunching over to type also becomes the norm.

I agree with most of what you say, but I don't advocate constantly tucking the chin actively throughout the day. I did that for a couple months and it caused me a lot of pain in my shoulders and the back of my neck. I think the chin tuck should be used solely as an exercise to strengthen the necessary muscles to help keep the head in vertical alignment with the shoulder. Its obviously still important to maintain good head and neck posture throughout the day, but it should be initiated with good general body posture, and not forced by actively tucking the chin.

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Posted : 30/05/2019 7:29 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Jawanomics

I think to get good results you would need a combination of forward maxilla, palate expansion and ramus lengthening. Now the first two i can accept could happen...the ramus lengthening not so much.

 

for your chin to come forward you need two things...jaw line to lengthen or ramus to lengthen and making your gonial angle lower making your jawline having a flatter more forward path. I just doubt either will happen so chin rotation is cope.

 

only true looksmax is beard...which is the basis of success stories on here.

 

i need beard

Has your occlusion changed?

 

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Posted : 30/05/2019 9:35 am
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

there's been some people who have seen their chin change, but i guess that may be caused by other factors

im not so sure anymire

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Posted : 30/05/2019 9:40 am
Jawanomics
Eminent Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Jawanomics

I think to get good results you would need a combination of forward maxilla, palate expansion and ramus lengthening. Now the first two i can accept could happen...the ramus lengthening not so much.

 

for your chin to come forward you need two things...jaw line to lengthen or ramus to lengthen and making your gonial angle lower making your jawline having a flatter more forward path. I just doubt either will happen so chin rotation is cope.

 

only true looksmax is beard...which is the basis of success stories on here.

 

i need beard

Has your occlusion changed?

 

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No, my bite has remained the same.

 

but i know what you're getting at, if the maxilla goes forward and the bite remains the same, then the chin must also go forward.

 

but maybe the tongue remodels the maxilla rather than any pushing forward. Meaning the lower which is fairly untouched remains the same.

 

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Posted : 30/05/2019 10:29 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Jawanomics
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Jawanomics

I think to get good results you would need a combination of forward maxilla, palate expansion and ramus lengthening. Now the first two i can accept could happen...the ramus lengthening not so much.

 

for your chin to come forward you need two things...jaw line to lengthen or ramus to lengthen and making your gonial angle lower making your jawline having a flatter more forward path. I just doubt either will happen so chin rotation is cope.

 

only true looksmax is beard...which is the basis of success stories on here.

 

i need beard

Has your occlusion changed?

 

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No, my bite has remained the same.

 

but i know what you're getting at, if the maxilla goes forward and the bite remains the same, then the chin must also go forward.

 

but maybe the tongue remodels the maxilla rather than any pushing forward. Meaning the lower which is fairly untouched remains the same.

 

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But if the palate expands, then the occlusion would change simply due to the forces affecting the maxilla only and not the mandible. In expansion, the maxilla rotates counterclockwise and the mandible rotates clockwise, creating a bite with less overjet. 

 

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Posted : 30/05/2019 10:39 am
Pame
 Pame
Trusted Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Jawanomics
Posted by: EddieMoney
Posted by: Jawanomics

I think to get good results you would need a combination of forward maxilla, palate expansion and ramus lengthening. Now the first two i can accept could happen...the ramus lengthening not so much.

 

for your chin to come forward you need two things...jaw line to lengthen or ramus to lengthen and making your gonial angle lower making your jawline having a flatter more forward path. I just doubt either will happen so chin rotation is cope.

 

only true looksmax is beard...which is the basis of success stories on here.

 

i need beard

Has your occlusion changed?

 

Quantcast

 

No, my bite has remained the same.

 

but i know what you're getting at, if the maxilla goes forward and the bite remains the same, then the chin must also go forward.

 

but maybe the tongue remodels the maxilla rather than any pushing forward. Meaning the lower which is fairly untouched remains the same.

 

Quantcast

 

 

But if the palate expands, then the occlusion would change simply due to the forces affecting the maxilla only and not the mandible. In expansion, the maxilla rotates counterclockwise and the mandible rotates clockwise, creating a bite with less overjet. 

 

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Progress expanded his palate significantly, yet his overjet remained the same. Also, in many of Mews patients they initially brought the maxilla forward, increasing the overjet. Then later they would bring the mandible forward.

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Posted : 31/05/2019 5:49 am
Neigh
Active Member
Posted by: @jawanomics

I think to get good results you would need a combination of forward maxilla, palate expansion and ramus lengthening. Now the first two i can accept could happen...the ramus lengthening not so much.

This is one of the most important threads on the forum.

I think you've highlighted why some people get great results with mewing, or an appliance, or a surgery while most others do not.

When we look at people with under developed faces, they're usually lacking in ALL 3 areas. A small maxilla, a small palette, and a short ramus. But not all of them suffer from all three. Some are probably suffering from just two. And their treatment fixes both of them. They get amazing results, while most people don't change much. And that's because they're fixing only a portion of the problems.

Some people are obsessed with maxilla projection and jaw width and ignore literally everything else in the face(unless we're counting orbital rims, which you literally can't change safely through any means). Those are important, but it really is whole face harmony. If you fix just one or two key things, and everything else on your face still looks like an inbred swamp dweller, you're not going to look good. 

It's intellectually simplistic and borderline cultist mindset that insists that lack of progress is necessarily due to insufficient effort. While I'd agree that "if you're doing it right" you should see good results inside of a year...if you ever will. That doesn't mean everyone will. Most won't. Because they have a LOT more problems that a narrow palette and droopy tongue position. 

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Posted : 06/10/2019 8:14 am