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Are overbites really common in Britain?  

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EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Has anyone heard of the British overbite? Seems it is heard of commonly as being a prominent facial structure. It even seems they saw it in themselves early on compared to others:

Now obviously this ridiculous pic depicts it as a favorable condition, with the more open bites and stronger lower thirds seen as "bad development" and "primitive". 

However I have noticed that Brits seldom have bites like this:

Notice the proclined incisors with an alveolar ridge that looks upturned (probably creating a slight curve of spee). This would lead to a more open bite and longer lower face. I see this more in Northern mainland European people and not as often in Brits. In Brits I have seen more Class 2 Div 2 type bites. 

My question is are deep/overbites that common in Britain vs most of Europe or is it just a stereotype? I feel like Brits seem more brachyfacial where many Northern mainland Europeans tend to dolichofacial and mesofacial structures. But I just go off of what I have seen. I feel like more open bite structures with large teeth and mandibles are seen more in that part of Europe vs Britain itself. I wonder if diet has something to do with it. 

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Posted : 13/03/2020 12:55 pm
Sergio-OMS
Trusted Member

Yes, overbite is common in Caucasians , specially in UK an Central Europe, because small tongue-small mandible complex is common too

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Posted : 13/03/2020 4:41 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

In females at least it seems the mandible is larger compared to Asian and African women. This seems consistent with real life observation, too.

Now I know some Europeans like Mediterranean people have smaller jaws, but I also know that some Europeans are known for their robust features like Scandinavians. In Brits I find that the mandible can have a short ramus and overall low face height however. I wouldn't call it consistent across all of Europe though. 

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Posted : 13/03/2020 6:21 pm
Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

The Tropic Premise suggests that facial development has a large moral element. Of course there are genetic determinants too. But if we compare British people against people of nations that are genetically similar, say, Americans, Australians, some Europeans we notice that British people tend to have worse teeth. “British teeth” is an accurate pejorative term. Australians may in a Weston analysis have more sunlight and a better diet but this is not the case with the other comparator nations. Some languages use the mouth differently, for instance French involves what to me feels like uncomfortable and excessive contortions. But Americans and Australians speak English too. I think the English accent has got into a negative feedback loop. We speak as our parents did and they did in part because they had bad teeth. The supposedly upper class drawl seems to be a passing down of a habit detrimental to facial and dental development. I think this goes beyond speech to facial expressions in general. Us poor Brits have got into a terrible mess of moral degeneracy. No wonder we value Stoicism so highly.

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Posted : 14/03/2020 9:18 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@odys

I fail to see the connection that you're trying to make between morality, language and facial development. I see a link between morality and language, insofar as language is an expression of a particular culture, and words transmit the spirit of the culture, which includes morality. But what does this have to do with facial development?

Whatever impact the manner of speaking and facial expressions accompanying it have on the development of the face, is probably negligible. It is the lifestyle common to a culture or linguistic group that has a far, far greater influence. If a class with a particular drawl or accent has significantly worse CFD than people of other classes, it's most likely their way of living - which is probably sedentary and comfortable, above all - that is the main contributor to the problem. Their manner of speaking is simply a consequence of their lifestyle and elevated status.

Us poor Brits have got into a terrible mess of moral degeneracy. No wonder we value Stoicism so highly.

Huh?

 

 

24 years old

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Posted : 14/03/2020 10:59 am
Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

We just differ on what morality means. You call it lifestyle and behaviour.

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Posted : 14/03/2020 11:30 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @odys

The Tropic Premise suggests that facial development has a large moral element. Of course there are genetic determinants too. But if we compare British people against people of nations that are genetically similar, say, Americans, Australians, some Europeans we notice that British people tend to have worse teeth. “British teeth” is an accurate pejorative term. Australians may in a Weston analysis have more sunlight and a better diet but this is not the case with the other comparator nations. Some languages use the mouth differently, for instance French involves what to me feels like uncomfortable and excessive contortions. But Americans and Australians speak English too. I think the English accent has got into a negative feedback loop. We speak as our parents did and they did in part because they had bad teeth. The supposedly upper class drawl seems to be a passing down of a habit detrimental to facial and dental development. I think this goes beyond speech to facial expressions in general. Us poor Brits have got into a terrible mess of moral degeneracy. No wonder we value Stoicism so highly.

English accent? In England accents change by the square mile and no one has reached a consensus to how words are pronounced. There are probably over 100 recognized English accents and maybe even hundreds more we haven't recorded. I have heard Northern English people who sound vaguely like American Southerners, Geordies who sound nearly Scottish, Londoners who sound West Indian, etc. But I do find that no matter the accent, that short faced pattern with a strong deep bite exists. I wonder if it is in the food. 

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Posted : 14/03/2020 12:37 pm
Sergio-OMS
Trusted Member
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @sergio-oms

@eddiemoney

Global distribution of malocclusion traits: A systematic review

 

All that says is that Europeans have a highest incidence of Class 2 (maybe they use the most forks and knives), but nothing of them having small tongues or mandibles. 

I do think that the fact Europeans compared to Africans and Asians would use more forks and knives, increasing molar usage while decreasing incisor usage. This would explain the highest concentration of Class 2. But I wonder what it would look like between differing European nations?

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Posted : 14/03/2020 9:12 pm
gewgerg
Active Member

I'm a brit and I have div 2 class 2 so do 50-60% of my my friends and family. div 2 class 1s are more uncommon.

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Posted : 14/03/2020 9:26 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @gewgerg

I'm a brit and I have div 2 class 2 so do 50-60% of my my friends and family. div 2 class 1s are more uncommon.

Div 2 Class 1 is seldom seen in most nations due to the fact it is caused by a tongue thrust and weak lip seal. In other words the person developed abnormally and myofunctional therapy is needed to prevent relapse of any treatment. The link Sergio posted shows that it isn't a common bite structure anywhere. I agree that I seldom see it in adults as it does rely on juvenile tendencies most people grow out of. 

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Posted : 15/03/2020 11:01 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

The link Sergio posted also showed that Africans tend to Class 1 and Asians to Class 3. I wonder if Africans use the least utensils so their bite is less likely to favor the molars and use more incisor chewing. The link mentioned that Class 3 commonality in Asians was due to midface deficiency. Asians are stereotyped as having a flat midface after all so I wonder if it is posture related. Europeans having the most industrialization (led by the Brits) would then use more utensils and eat softer foods, decreasing incisor usage and relying more on molar chewing for these soft foods. 

In light of our recent thread related to temporalis vs masseter usage, I wonder if Brits would tend to more temporalis usage when chewing vs people in China (as one example) of people who use more of their masseters.

I also wonder if a common British phenotype of a short and somewhat rounded face (think James Corden or the "England is my city" kid) just makes it easier to become Class 2. The same would apply to the stereotypical Chinese phenotype of a flat face that would make a Class 3 inevitable. But I wonder WHY these phenotypes came to be? What in Britain causes the face to lack vertical maxillary growth vs what in China causes no midface growth?

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Posted : 15/03/2020 11:11 am
Elwynn liked
Sergio-OMS
Trusted Member

@eddiemoney

Ok, you are right, gene proportions from different h**o species do not matter and do not explain anything...

🙄 Yes, everything is about forks and chewing and "mewing". 

 

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Posted : 15/03/2020 11:36 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @sergio-oms

@eddiemoney

Ok, you are right, gene proportions from different h**o species do not matter and do not explain anything...

🙄 Yes, everything is about forks and chewing and "mewing". 

 

What are you even talking about? Show me where I said such a thing. I don't get your post. What does any of what you said even address this discussion? It all ends up being words on a page. 

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Posted : 15/03/2020 3:43 pm