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Alveolar prognathism - need advice

dm222
(@dm222)
100+ Forum Posts

So I have alveolar prognathism, and at the moment extractions seems the only viable way, what do you think?

This happen because of incorrect tongue posture, tongue pressing against front teeth, and because of mouth breathing pressed against the lower ones more.

I dont have spaces to push the teeth back.

intermolar width palate 45mm jaw 35mm

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Topic starter Posted : 24/04/2019 3:21 am
Achilles1
(@achilles1)
100+ Forum Posts

The goal is not to bring the teeth back, but bring the bone structure forward to meet the position of the teeth. With a little tongue discipline via retracting it backwards onto the palate only, you should be fine without extractions. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5S1P1IIYHY

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/04/2019 4:25 am
dm222
(@dm222)
100+ Forum Posts

but then I will end up with bimax protrusion which I already have some.

the ideal would be to push the lower teeth back and then the whole jaw would move forward because its locked back by the upper teeth.

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 24/04/2019 4:40 am
darkindigo
(@darkindigo)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: dm222

but then I will end up with bimax protrusion which I already have some.

the ideal would be to push the lower teeth back and then the whole jaw would move forward because its locked back by the upper teeth.

Photos?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/04/2019 5:56 am
dm222
(@dm222)
100+ Forum Posts

its hard to show with photos.

here is an image:

first one is with mouth closed (pushing jaw back, which latelly sometimes I cant) and teeth touching, second photo is with jaw relaxed.

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 24/04/2019 6:30 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
500+ Forum Posts

Did you diagnose yourself? If so, you may not even be correct. In fact, even if the diagnosis was given by a doc, it may not actually mean anything. Read further.

Extracting teeth = weaker jaw automatically. Can anyone show photos of tooth extractions where the jaws looked better afterwards? Extractions cause the mandible to sit further back, primarily because the arch is lessened. If the mandible can't sit further back, you end up with an underbite. 

Also, tooth extractions narrow your arch which makes breathing much harder.

Go ahead and do it but you will NOT be pleased by the results. Your "prognathism" may in fact be a narrow upper arch combined with tooth tipping. As my upper incisors have come forward, my chin has only gotten stronger because my intermolar and intercanine width had increased, allowing my mandible to slide forward.

Think about this: can you think of anyonewith retracted teeth that actually has a strong jaw? If you can show me this I would be very curious. 

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Posted : 24/04/2019 7:55 pm
dm222
(@dm222)
100+ Forum Posts

I was not diagnosed but pretty sure about this, and want to see the whole picture before going to an ortondontist expose the problem as I was mislead before by dentists filling teeths I didnt need!

I have a wide intermolar width upper arch 45mm vs 35 mm jaw.

I can see 14 teeth while smiling both lower and upper arch

The big question is how to push the lower teeth back because they protrude from the chin as you can see in the images 

When pushing the teeth back that would alow the jaw to move forward to a more natural position.

 

Lower teeth have a smal inclination forward and upper dont, making them straight probably would be enough to correct the bite, idk, but would still protrude from the chin

 

 

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 24/04/2019 9:01 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: dm222

I was not diagnosed but pretty sure about this, and want to see the whole picture before going to an ortondontist expose the problem as I was mislead before by dentists filling teeths I didnt need!

I have a wide intermolar width upper arch 45mm vs 35 mm jaw.

I can see 14 teeth while smiling both lower and upper arch

The big question is how to push the lower teeth back because they protrude from the chin as you can see in the images 

When pushing the teeth back that would alow the jaw to move forward to a more natural position.

 

Lower teeth have a smal inclination forward and upper dont, making them straight probably would be enough to correct the bite, idk, but would still protrude from the chin

 

 

Nobody benefits from extractions. I used to think my intermolar was 45mm but turns out it was 36mm. How are you measuring anyway? From an impression? Or just from opening your mouth?

Again, the lower arch has to sit inside the upper. If you reduce the upper then you may end up with an underbite. Or to balance out the extractions up top they may extract from the bottom. Which recesses the jaw further. Don't say you weren't warned. 

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Posted : 25/04/2019 3:43 am
dm222
(@dm222)
100+ Forum Posts

but I already have an underbite.

I measure with a ruler

ReplyQuote
Topic starter Posted : 25/04/2019 4:12 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: dm222

but I already have an underbite.

I measure with a ruler

Great. You are exactly in the case I was in when I decided to get braces. An underbite where I wanted extractions to fix "prognathism" 

Guess what? I regret those braces amd those extractions horribly. Your ruler measurement is most likely way off. Extractions elongate your midface, increase your gum exposure, and worst off make your profile WEAKER. You will go from a "prognathic" profile to a retrognathic one. Your narrowed arch will sit deep in your skull and you may develop tinnitus, breathing problems, and overall a very unaesthetic face and profile.

When I got my extractions treatment and the gaps were closed, I had a long face and a weak lower third. I looked like an old lady. Actually an old lady might have had a better face than me. My teeth were located so far from my nose that I had gums showing all the time. My chin looked so weak that I never felt comfortable with a clean shaven face. I felt so childlike and weak and I hated my face that I cursed my genetics every day. I looked back at my face before braces and it was so much more developed and I looked like a pretty boy. After braces all I felt when I looked at my face was how awkward and uncomfortable I felt.

I wish I would have never had extractions. My underbite turned into an overbite which really weakened the projection of my jaw. If you go through with this you will not have prognathism or bimax but you will have very weak features. My eyes became bug like. I looked tired all the time. My face looked like it had loose skin even though my body fat was low (like 11%). My mandible became so tucked into my face that you couldn't even see where it began. My submental became horribly saggy. 

Nowadays I have to jut my jaw just to assume normal oral posture since it is impossible for my mandible to be in the correct position due to extractions. I had an underbite before braces and in order to look normal I have to jut my jaw to an underbite again, since the arch is so narrow it sits maybe 5mm at least too far back than it used to. 

My advice: don't waste your money. Mew properly. Get impressions to measure your true IMW, and maybe get an expansion device. I know my features have improved heavily from just postural changes than they ever did from extractions.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 25/04/2019 6:56 am
entelechy
(@entelechy)
100+ Forum Posts

If you have had premolar extractions, please take the below survey and pass it onwards on social media:

https://forms.gle/E77UZK4BnqaaCDvY6

entelechy

ReplyQuote
Posted : 22/09/2019 6:26 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
500+ Forum Posts

Note: it is possible to move the jaws up AND the teeth back by improving lip seal and tongue position. In this case the upper teeth are moved further from the nose but the profile improves. No extractions needed.

817 BA230C66 E42F 4610 8DBE 7E2F79833376
ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/09/2019 5:49 pm
Kyte liked
Kyte
 Kyte
(@kyte)
200+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Note: it is possible to move the jaws up AND the teeth back by improving lip seal and tongue position. In this case the upper teeth are moved further from the nose but the profile improves. No extractions needed.

817 BA230C66 E42F 4610 8DBE 7E2F79833376

Yes, I'd add that we need  expansion too in order to move the teeth back, otherwise we wouldn't have space where to place them . Expanding the maxilla as if It was a baloon by tongue posture.

I think that relying on lip seal too much without the proper counterforce applied by the tongue would end up in crowding ( in a matter of year of course)

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/09/2019 10:58 pm
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @kyte
Posted by: @eddiemoney

Note: it is possible to move the jaws up AND the teeth back by improving lip seal and tongue position. In this case the upper teeth are moved further from the nose but the profile improves. No extractions needed.

817 BA230C66 E42F 4610 8DBE 7E2F79833376

Yes, I'd add that we need  expansion too in order to move the teeth back, otherwise we wouldn't have space where to place them . Expanding the maxilla as if It was a baloon by tongue posture.

I think that relying on lip seal too much without the proper counterforce applied by the tongue would end up in crowding ( in a matter of year of course)

 

 

So she didn't even have upward growth. All it seemed was she expanded sideways and that it and of itself allowed room for the teeth to be positioned correctly and also for the jaw to move forward.

This goes with the theory of how expansion actually moves the maxilla slightly BACKWARDS away while the rest of the face goes out and forward. I myself haven't experienced my teeth getting much closer to my nose, but other good benefits like my eyes being deeper into my skull and further apart, which does actually mean facial shortening. 

So maybe what is deemed forward growth is a combination of the skull growing in ALL directions. This is what expansion means after all. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/09/2019 11:50 pm
Kyte
 Kyte
(@kyte)
200+ Forum Posts

@EddieMoney

"This goes with the theory of how expansion actually moves the maxilla slightly BACKWARDS away while the rest of the face goes out and forward."

I think that expansion doesnt move the maxilla back. A recessed maxilla Is for definition already set back. Rather it makes everything more proportioned.

Looks like this  girl (case similar to mine) Just managed to decompress her squished and enlogated maxilla through expansion, reducing maxillary prognaticism (overjet) and making It more proportioned.

Expanding a prognatic maxilla looks like recession because It enhances features like cheakbones and because, reducing the vault, allows the mandible to swing up, resulting in a more projected chin. In the overall , face gets more concave (≠recessed) rather than convex and a concave look Is more attractive because healthier.

Take a baseball bat. Start hitting your car as hard as you can. It gets more concave, but not more attractive in this case. That's  how orthos used to give people a concave look back in the years; pushing their teeth inside their mouth in order to make their underdeveloped chin and cheakbones (Just) look more prominent. And extracting teeth if brute force Is not enough.

They used to compress instead of expand

"So maybe what is deemed forward growth is a combination of the skull growing in ALL directions. This is what expansion means after all. "

YES

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/09/2019 2:56 am
EddieMoney
(@eddiemoney)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @kyte

@EddieMoney

"This goes with the theory of how expansion actually moves the maxilla slightly BACKWARDS away while the rest of the face goes out and forward."

I think that expansion doesnt move the maxilla back. A recessed maxilla Is for definition already set back. Rather it makes everything more proportioned.

Looks like this  girl (case similar to mine) Just managed to decompress her squished and enlogated maxilla through expansion, reducing maxillary prognaticism (overjet) and making It more proportioned.

Expanding a prognatic maxilla looks like recession because It enhances features like cheakbones and because, reducing the vault, allows the mandible to swing up, resulting in a more projected chin. In the overall , face gets more concave (≠recessed) rather than convex and a concave look Is more attractive because healthier.

Take a baseball bat. Start hitting your car as hard as you can. It gets more concave, but not more attractive in this case. That's  how orthos used to give people a concave look back in the years; pushing their teeth inside their mouth in order to make their underdeveloped chin and cheakbones (Just) look more prominent. And extracting teeth if brute force Is not enough.

They used to compress instead of expand

"So maybe what is deemed forward growth is a combination of the skull growing in ALL directions. This is what expansion means after all. "

YES

I understand the maxilla itself probably doesn't move much at all. What I mean is the face pushing itself forward makes the nose tip go further away from the teeth. In other words, the Mew line increases slightly. But the maxilla itself doesn't go back. The whole face advances ahead of it. 

This is true forward growth. Not just teeth tipping. In this growth, the facial skeleton is pulled down, out, and even up. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/09/2019 9:21 am

THE GREAT WORK