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AGGA Before/After 3D Scans / X-Rays revealed  

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Amber12
Active Member

Thoughts? I think this is an incredible result

Side-by-side pictures are here:

https://www.migrainehacks.com/new-blog-1/2018/5/12/26-week-agga-x-rays

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Posted : 14/05/2018 1:28 pm
Apollo liked
Amber12
Active Member

One thing: There's a void of bone that opens up between his molars and front teeth. 

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Posted : 14/05/2018 1:32 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

That's defiantly bone expanding and remodeling. It seems most of it took place in the lower part of the maxilla, but there is still some in the upper area. That air way expansion is the most impressive.

On a related note, I was wondering how Ronny was having the time and resources to post all of those quality updates until I read this "although I was recently admitted to dental school". 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 3:30 pm
Keengo
Trusted Member

Seems right, but the mandible didn't look to rotate as much as just drop down more.

I would think that the maxilla rotating and between using this thing about half a year would cause mandible rotation too.

** The face pulling "bag method" -- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/face-pulling/#post-3902 **

** Keengo Chin Tuck method w/force (WIP)-- https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/chin-tuck-with-added-force-chin-tuck-2-0-new-theory-inside/ **

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Posted : 14/05/2018 4:00 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Keengo

Seems right, but the mandible didn't look to rotate as much as just drop down more.

I would think that the maxilla rotating and between using this thing about half a year would cause mandible rotation too.

This. If anything it looks like the gonial angle may have actually increased. I mean I won't lie and say I didn't see bones shift but at the same time I don't think the mechanism behind this device causes favorable changes.

Obviously all of us here believe bones can shift when soft pressure is applied over time. My issue with this device isn't whether it shifts bone but whether it does in a favorable manner. This just looks like it caused prognathism and Ron's new side profile seems to indicate that as well. @seii mentioned in the other thread that eventually this will correct itself but until I see other pics of other patients where this happens I will continue to think the device isn't ideal for aesthetics. Airway opening I won't argue about though. But this proves FAGGA can shift bones at a fast rate. For now I will rely on posture and tongue placement before dropping 10k on a prognathism device. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 10:16 pm
seii
 seii
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
 
This. If anything it looks like the gonial angle may have actually increased. I mean I won't lie and say I didn't see bones shift but at the same time I don't think the mechanism behind this device causes favorable changes.

Obviously all of us here believe bones can shift when soft pressure is applied over time. My issue with this device isn't whether it shifts bone but whether it does in a favorable manner. This just looks like it caused prognathism and Ron's new side profile seems to indicate that as well. @seii mentioned in the other thread that eventually this will correct itself but until I see other pics of other patients where this happens I will continue to think the device isn't ideal for aesthetics. Airway opening I won't argue about though. But this proves FAGGA can shift bones at a fast rate. For now I will rely on posture and tongue placement before dropping 10k on a prognathism device. 

Guys this isn't the completed treatment. 

You are also forgetting that he has blobs of filling material on his molars that are propping his jaw open. When his maxilla is in its final position the mandible will rotate upwards and upright. As it slowly settles into its final position the gonial angle changes. It will decrease and get closer to a 90degree angulation due to remodelling - as all the muscles will be in a new position - especially the masseter. 

the FAGGA stimulates bone growth... it doesn't just shift. I think you will need a veryyyyy long time before you can grow bone with just tongue posturing. 

hope that helps.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 10:52 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: seii
Posted by: EddieMoney
 
This. If anything it looks like the gonial angle may have actually increased. I mean I won't lie and say I didn't see bones shift but at the same time I don't think the mechanism behind this device causes favorable changes.

Obviously all of us here believe bones can shift when soft pressure is applied over time. My issue with this device isn't whether it shifts bone but whether it does in a favorable manner. This just looks like it caused prognathism and Ron's new side profile seems to indicate that as well. @seii mentioned in the other thread that eventually this will correct itself but until I see other pics of other patients where this happens I will continue to think the device isn't ideal for aesthetics. Airway opening I won't argue about though. But this proves FAGGA can shift bones at a fast rate. For now I will rely on posture and tongue placement before dropping 10k on a prognathism device. 

Guys this isn't the completed treatment. 

You are also forgetting that he has blobs of filling material on his molars that are propping his jaw open. When his maxilla is in its final position the mandible will rotate upwards and upright. As it slowly settles into its final position the gonial angle changes. It will decrease and get closer to a 90degree angulation due to remodelling - as all the muscles will be in a new position - especially the masseter. 

the FAGGA stimulates bone growth... it doesn't just shift. I think you will need a veryyyyy long time before you can grow bone with just tongue posturing. 

hope that helps.

I don't think anyone here believes "just" tongue posturing is enough. Hang around a while .You will notice we talk about way more than that. That is simply the beginning and bare minimum. 

If you thinks bones can shift with constant force why do you think the natural mechanisms of the body are insufficient? Or if you believe they aren't insufficient I just want to understand your reasoning. 

Furthermore do you have any before and after pics of these favorable effects that you claim will happen? Remember you as a dentist have something to sell. Most of us here don't .

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 11:31 pm
SUGR1
Active Member

There is a good article in Lvi visions past article Spring by Anne Maree with a patient that she did two F-AGGA treatment on. Article titled 'if it is being done it is probably possible'  The patient is interestingly a dentist and the cbct shows some serious airways and bony changes.

Anne Maree is a student of Steve Galella. 

 

https://www.lviglobal.com/current-issue/  

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2018 11:39 pm
seii liked
seii
 seii
Active Member

@eddiemoney

I am a dentist but I am not selling anything. I don't do this treatment at this stage (I have signed up for a few crazy expensive courses for the near future because I believe in it - trust me its an uphill battle even after that because everyone else who doesn't understand it will try their best to bring you down) and I honestly couldn't care less if you decided to go ahead with this treatment or not. I am just passionate about making sure that people sleep right (lol) and are getting the right information about this treatment. As I said, I have all the symptoms of sleep disordered breathing, my dad's sleep apnoea is so bad that it is now centric sleep apnoea... and this is the only known cure at this point in time.

I don't know what else you do on top of the tongue posturing, and perhaps it works... but I guess this treatment will give you a significant outcome which might be a quicker and easier process? I'm happy to try to discuss (or find the answer as I dont know everything) what you are worried about with regards to this appliance but I just don't want people to be misinformed.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2018 12:03 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: seii

@eddiemoney

I am a dentist but I am not selling anything. I don't do this treatment at this stage (I have signed up for a few crazy expensive courses for the near future because I believe in it - trust me its an uphill battle even after that because everyone else who doesn't understand it will try their best to bring you down) and I honestly couldn't care less if you decided to go ahead with this treatment or not. I am just passionate about making sure that people sleep right (lol) and are getting the right information about this treatment. As I said, I have all the symptoms of sleep disordered breathing, my dad's sleep apnoea is so bad that it is now centric sleep apnoea... and this is the only known cure at this point in time.

I don't know what else you do on top of the tongue posturing, and perhaps it works... but I guess this treatment will give you a significant outcome which might be a quicker and easier process? I'm happy to try to discuss (or find the answer as I dont know everything) what you are worried about with regards to this appliance but I just don't want people to be misinformed.

So where are the before and afters of claims like altered gonial angles? If this thing helps people breathe better then great. I just want to see proof of the claims you are making; I.e. the end result . so far none of that has happened. I even tried doing a google search for FAGGA/  AGGA before and after pics and most were very underwhelming and showed only profile changes in lip puffiness while factors like gonial angle seemed unchanged.

But hey. Maybe this thing isn't for aesthetics and I truly understand. However, if that is the case, then I don't see the need for claims such as "this isn't the end result" when most if not all before and after pics do show it as the end result. 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2018 9:41 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@seii So if I understand correctly, mandibular upswing only occurs at the end of treatment? Is that done on purpose with the FAGGA/AGGA because of some kind of benefit of the upswing occurring all at once?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2018 10:52 am
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

@seii So if I understand correctly, mandibular upswing only occurs at the end of treatment? Is that done on purpose with the FAGGA/AGGA because of some kind of benefit of the upswing occurring all at once?

I might jump in here, and stand to be corrected, but the pads are ground down over time so the mandibular upswing is a gradual improvement rather than a dramatic correction.

That was just with my treatment though.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2018 7:10 pm
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: rogerramjet
Posted by: Greensmoothies

@seii So if I understand correctly, mandibular upswing only occurs at the end of treatment? Is that done on purpose with the FAGGA/AGGA because of some kind of benefit of the upswing occurring all at once?

I might jump in here, and stand to be corrected, but the pads are ground down over time so the mandibular upswing is a gradual improvement rather than a dramatic correction.

That was just with my treatment though.

Would also add, that as my treatment progressed, there were clearly some muscular and structural changes, because every few weeks I would find myself being able to project my mandible more forward than had previously been possible, as if everything was beginning to decompress.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2018 7:51 pm
Sam
 Sam
Active Member
Posted by: rogerramjet

I might jump in here, and stand to be corrected, but the pads are ground down over time so the mandibular upswing is a gradual improvement rather than a dramatic correction.

That was just with my treatment though.

Were the pads ground down during the braces phase or the AGGA phase?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 3:25 am
seii
 seii
Active Member
Posted by: EddieMoney
 
So where are the before and afters of claims like altered gonial angles? If this thing helps people breathe better then great. I just want to see proof of the claims you are making; I.e. the end result . so far none of that has happened. I even tried doing a google search for FAGGA/  AGGA before and after pics and most were very underwhelming and showed only profile changes in lip puffiness while factors like gonial angle seemed unchanged.

But hey. Maybe this thing isn't for aesthetics and I truly understand. However, if that is the case, then I don't see the need for claims such as "this isn't the end result" when most if not all before and after pics do show it as the end result. 

I'm sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree. As I said I dont do this treatment yet, so I don't have any cases to share with you. Even if I did do this treatment, it is a very difficult to get a patient's consent to share their treatment photos to the whole world to get dissected and criticized at - and a very personal choice to make. I have personally viewed some before and after photos in confidence with some of my colleagues so I guess you can take my word for it or search really hard.... or wait until Ronald updates so you can see the end results!  ^^;  

here's one but I'm sure there will be people who say that the photos aren't in the same angulation etc. 🙂 I have to say its hard to analyse the after picture lol.

https://www.lviglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/BornBeautiful.pdf

 

@greensmoothies

I believe the mandibular upswinging happens towards the end because the FGGA has created enough space antero-posteriorly that the maxilla is no longer trapping the mandible behind. When and how... i don't think I'm the right person to answer that sorry! 🙂  Might be as the teeth on top are bring brought into its final position that the mandible and its muscles slowly settles into the new bite and then the remodelling of everything happens then - i think i answered this bit somewhere else. 

If that makes sense.

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Posted : 16/05/2018 8:22 am
rogerramjet
Eminent Member
Posted by: Sam
Posted by: rogerramjet

I might jump in here, and stand to be corrected, but the pads are ground down over time so the mandibular upswing is a gradual improvement rather than a dramatic correction.

That was just with my treatment though.

Were the pads ground down during the braces phase or the AGGA phase?

Mostly AGGA, but in braces/CA too - there has to be some separation to allow the premolars to come forward in braces without hitting the lower teeth.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2018 7:26 pm
seii liked
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