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qwerty135
(@qwerty135)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress

A couple of interesting photos from /r/mewing, one year and two year spans respectively:

Interesting how, for both, it doesn't really look like any "upswing" has occurred. In fact for the second result, which seems much more dramatic to me, it looks like the jaws grew downwards and outwards from the face. Example of "short faced" individual?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/02/2020 5:28 am
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @qwerty135
Posted by: @progress

A couple of interesting photos from /r/mewing, one year and two year spans respectively:

Interesting how, for both, it doesn't really look like any "upswing" has occurred. In fact for the second result, which seems much more dramatic to me, it looks like the jaws grew downwards and outwards from the face. Example of "short faced" individual?

Yeah I agree. One of them shared that he had been pushing against teeth with his tongue. I have been wondering if in the end mandibular growth is really just about applying force against the alveolar process of the mandible, rather than expanding/rotating the maxilla so that the mandible can advance. As long as teeth are kept in close proximity to each other, the upper jaw should naturally adapt to changing mandibular proportions. So, what if it's not the mandible that follows the maxilla, but the maxilla that follows the mandible? At the very least, those with pronounced underbites often have a large mandibular length -- could underbite then result from not keeping the teeth together while the mandible is being developed forward by sustained lingual force? We would also become able to explain why overbite is considered difficult to fix by orthodontists: there is no convenient way to harness mandibular growth with an appliance. Just brainstorming here, hopefully you get the gist. Personally it feels kind of good and stable to keep the tip of the tongue at the small protrusion below the lower incisors, then simply cram the whole tongue towards anterior mouth against the teeth, so that the weigh of the tongue is evenly distributed on interior surface of each teeth.

 

 

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Posted : 12/02/2020 5:55 am
qwerty135
(@qwerty135)
50+ Forum Posts

@progress

That's an interesting theory. I definitely agree that a major part of CFD for many is a lack of alveolar development. For instance, look at this guy:

Image may contain: 1 person, closeup

The position of his maxilla seems good, but the dentoalveolar region looks extremely underdeveloped.

However, I don't know if the growth that's missing for most people is the front of maxilla/mandible. That is to say, I don't know if growth caused by a stimulus at the front of the jaws is what the body is looking for. Look at the FAGGA device, which causes alveolar growth from the premaxilla. While I know it's not what you are talking about above (as it's the maxilla receiving force and the mandible adapting), we notice that the FAGGA only changes aesthetics locally, and doesn't do much for the rest of the face. It's not what most people are looking for.

In contrast, I think alveolar growth in the posterior maxilla and mandible is a better way to increase the arch length. For the mandible, decompression of the masseter-zygo axis would cause an increase in mandibular arch length, and the whole mandible (the ramus, body, condyle, coronoid process, etc) would shift forward and rotate upwards to avoid having the angle of the mandible obstruct the airway. This would allow growth of the chin and create an orthognathic mandibular profile. Perhaps this change in positioning and length of the mandible (partially as a desire of the body not to have the mandible impinge on the airway) could lead to an adaptation in the maxilla, similar to what you are talking about above?

As for how to achieve that growth in the posterior mandible/maxilla, I'm less sure. I'm leaning towards a belief that increasing the temporalis proportion would allow a relative decompression of the mandibular angle as you suggested in the other thread.

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Posted : 13/02/2020 3:47 am
qwerty135
(@qwerty135)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @admin

User from ShapeYourFace forum. User was 20 years old when began proper tongue posture, 21 at time of after photo

 [Picture removed by user request]

  http://www.shapeyourface.com/syfbb/viewtopic.php?t=247

Quotes from User: 

Yes, I don't believe in unattractive people. I believe that most faces are wrongly adapted which significantly had an impact on the bone structure. The bone structure is a main part of our looks and if that doesn't develop well then we will not only have bad bone structure but it will also have an impact on our facial muscles.

As you can see, my upper lip and lower lip evened out to a similar size. The lower lip was twice as chubby than the upper lip before. An unexpexted change is that the lines next to my nose disappeared. I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's because my maxilla went a few millimeters forward. I had an underbite before and it evened out as well.

I wonder how far those changes will go. I will wait a few years more and let my bone structure take care of my facial muscles for now.

No one is unattractive in my eyes. We just have to shape our faces, as we shape our bodies. In either cases we have to give them the right environment for them to grow properly - and Dr. Mike Mew set an example for that.

I have been doing Dr. Mew's method for a half year and my bone structure changed very well. Instead of describing it in words, let me demonstrate that with pictures of myself.

Oh and my assymetry has improved a lot. My tongue posture is better and I fixed my forward head posture which is super important. Having the wrong head posture impacts all the muscles on your face and the bones in the long term, so do not underestimate it. It made a greater change for me.

Chewing more on the left side improved my facial symmetry too. I used to chew on my right side for my entire life which is why it's shorter than the other side. Therefore I'm chewing now 4 hours on the left side and 2 hours on the right one to balance it out and it works amazingly well.

More improvements: my TMJ resolved completely and my teeth are perfectly aligned now.

I remember when I first saw this result, I thought it was absolutely incredible in terms of mandibular change and growth of the chin. His whole face grew forward, and his mandible straightened itself out. It's a very interesting result because he says that he began chewing for 6 hours a day, 4 hours of which were on the left side. In the link provided, he talks about how his temporalis muscles now bulge, and are incredibly big, after 6 months of mewing/chewing. Another user who saw his results and saw his enlarged temporalii notes that

When you contract your jaw, the temporalis muscle on the left side is bigger than on the right side.

Likely due to him chewing more on that side. The original user notes that 

When I close my mouth, the temporalis muscle gets flexed...It could be a side effect of mewing.

This is just more evidence for me of the importance of engaging the temporalis for multiple hours a day, building up its strength. I remember he did have a "long face" upon starting, and while his anterior facial height did not compress very much (though it did compress a bit) , mainly his posterior facial height increased to match the anterior. Also, his chin grew incredibly far, as much as helmutstrebl's. Perhaps mandibular length and chin will grow simply by the rest of the system being straightened out?

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Posted : 13/02/2020 4:05 am
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts

@qwerty135

I think the difference is that FAGGA can only gently reshape the palate by separating the anterior and the posterior teeth away from each other. Because the forces are coming from a device that is anchored into the maxilla itself only, it has no fulcrum through which it could affect anything else. In essence, FAGGA creates a closed system in which there is no transfer of force from/to outside the palate, and understandably the results are underwhelming.

The tongue on the other hand actively transfers external force into the jaws, creating a spherical/3D kind of expansion that no appliance can replicate, so its efforts should naturally result in a more multidimensional change than FAGGA. In my case when I ram the tongue forward, it automatically presses laterally against the molars and premolars too (of both jaws), which I imagine would slowly result in a large C-shaped occlusion in which the arch length is increased too. As you say, the temporalis likely has an important role somewhere in this equation. It could be that the temporalis pattern is meant to provide a counter-force to the glossal muscles, lest the mandible get pushed into an underbite due to the tongue trying to stabilize itself against the jaws.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/02/2020 10:22 pm
qwerty135
(@qwerty135)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress

I think the difference is that FAGGA can only gently reshape the palate by separating the anterior and the posterior teeth away from each other. Because the forces are coming from a device that is anchored into the maxilla itself only, it has no fulcrum through which it could affect anything else. In essence, FAGGA creates a closed system in which there is no transfer of force from/to outside the palate, and understandably the results are underwhelming.

The tongue on the other hand actively transfers external force into the jaws, creating a spherical/3D kind of expansion that no appliance can replicate, so its efforts should naturally result in a more multidimensional change than FAGGA.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. It definitely underscores the limitations of appliances, as well as the unique strength of the tongue in shaping the upper palate. Ultimately, the wide shape of the palate is going to come primarily from the action of the tongue.

 In my case when I ram the tongue forward, it automatically presses laterally against the molars and premolars too (of both jaws), which I imagine would slowly result in a large C-shaped occlusion in which the arch length is increased too. As you say, the temporalis likely has an important role somewhere in this equation. It could be that the temporalis pattern is meant to provide a counter-force to the glossal muscles, lest the mandible get pushed into an underbite due to the tongue trying to stabilize itself against the jaws.

Yes, when I ram my tongue forward, it does press laterally for me as well. Interestingly, when I engage my temporalis without the tongue ramming (through gentle clenching), I also feel an activation of my sternocleidomastoids and what I believe to my platysma muscle (though I may be misidentifying it). In contrast, when I ram my tongue forward, my temporalii are engaged, but less so the sternocleidomastoids and other neck muscles. Perhaps I need to adjust my technique to engage these muscles more.

By the way, I'm reminded of a few things with this technique. For one, tongue thrusters. They don't often have great facial development. But, I know one guy who is a classic tongue thruster as evidenced by his dentition (which is in bad shape due to his habit), yet has good skeletal development. However, even with his good development, he has sleep apnea. I think it could be due to limited room for the tongue (his arch is very narrow). I wonder if he hit on one component, the strong tongue, yet missed the back of his tongue expanding laterally. Perhaps other tongue thrusters who don't have as good development could have one element down (the strong tongue), but if they don't keep their teeth in contact, they lose out on proper temporalis and other muscle activation, leading to improper sagittal positioning of the jaws.

Another thing I think of is Orthotropics. As part of their preparatory phase of treatment of children, the Mews will tip the incisors forward, and move them to their correct position. They will also expand to make room for the tongue. Then, with the tongue placed on the roof not making contact with any of the teeth (from incisors to molars), and the teeth together, the incisors will actually upright (the roots of the incisors will grow forward to match their tipped counterparts). The maxilla grows to meet the new position of the incisors. Perhaps this is something we're trying to emulate naturally? Ramming the tongue forward to tip the incisors forward, and then some other aspect of proper posture/muscle usage (be it proper temporalis usage, or the tongue pushing further, etc) would allow the rest of the maxilla to grow forward to meet the incisors?

The last thing I'm reminded of is helmutstrebl's case. He wrote in his reddit post that the one bad effect of mewing for him was that his front teeth tipped forward. That's so interesting that he got that to happen naturally! It could mean he was onto something, because he was able to create part of what we are aiming to do here and what Orthotropics aims to do through appliances. But, if I recall correctly, his technique was holding the tongue up at the end of a swallow. He engaged the posterior third of his tongue like his life depended on it. But I don't know if the anterior third of his tongue was making contact with his incisors. I can try contacting him on reddit and asking, if you think there's something to be found here?

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Posted : 15/02/2020 5:42 am
Progress
(@progress)
500+ Forum Posts

@qwerty135 Ah, the bit about Orthotropics is something I didn't know before. Interesting piece of information. As for helmutstrebl, he stated in his original 1-year update that his front teeth had tipped due to him deliberately pushing against them with his tongue. Like you said, he viewed this as an undesirable result and had stopped doing it by the time of his next update a few months later, in which he presented even greater, accelerated results. In this more recent update he revealed that his front teeth were now reverting back. Considering what you revealed about the Orthotropic preparation phase, it could indeed be that the forwardly tilted incisors acted as a catalyst to some kind of structural change in the jaws even after helmut had stopped actively pushing against his incisors.

If I recall right, tongue thrusters aren't just pushing against their teeth, but also placing their tongue in between the teeth. In this position the tongue isn't able to drive against the palate, neither are the teeth able to make contact, explaining the lack of palatal width and the wonky occlusion. What I am really interested in finding out is what happens when you are thrusting against teeth that are kept in firm contact with each other. It seems that this would not necessarily result in an open bite, and that instead the occlusion would conveniently maintain its integrity while the tongue is expanding the arches to every direction.

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Posted : 15/02/2020 6:56 am
qwerty135
(@qwerty135)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress

@qwerty135 Ah, the bit about Orthotropics is something I didn't know before. Interesting piece of information. As for helmutstrebl, he stated in his original 1-year update that his front teeth had tipped due to him deliberately pushing against them with his tongue. Like you said, he viewed this as an undesirable result and had stopped doing it by the time of his next update a few months later, in which he presented even greater, accelerated results. In this more recent update he revealed that his front teeth were now reverting back. Considering what you revealed about the Orthotropic preparation phase, it could indeed be that the forwardly tilted incisors acted as a catalyst to some kind of structural change in the jaws even after helmut had stopped actively pushing against his incisors.

What's interesting is that the incisor uprighting seen in Orthotropics only occurs in children, and not in adults. This is the reason why Orthotropics only treats children: the innate maxillary growth of children is used to upright the incisors. If you tip the incisors in adults (even if they keep their teeth together in the same way as the children), nothing happens. Perhaps this is because it's a 2 stage process, with tipping being the first stage. The tipping could be a required precursor to what actually does the maxillary growth, whatever that something is (the second stage). And children are able to be treated with Orthotropics because their growth makes up for absence of whatever the second stage is? This would explain why helmut saw changes even after he stopped contacting his incisors with his tongue...the second stage was still occurring. This is all very vague because I have no idea what that second stage might be, and what might cause it! And I might be completely wrong in suggesting this...just spitballing ideas.

Also, below is Jamo's upper arch change for reference. Hard to tell how much the position and inclination of his incisors changed considering that the rest of the teeth would advance with them.

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Posted : 15/02/2020 7:34 am
Yay
 Yay
(@yay)
10+ Forum Posts

@admin made an update! 2017-2021 (4 Years)

CFDBCABD 8768 4930 90BF ADAB8E677CBA

 

 

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Posted : 06/01/2021 12:21 pm
TGW liked
ThaGangsta
(@mafiagang)
50+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress

h, the bit about Orthotropics is something I didn't know before. Interesting piece of information. As for helmutstrebl, he stated in his original 1-year update that his front teeth had tipped due to him deliberately pushing against them with his tongue. Like you said, he viewed this as an undesirable result and had stopped doing it by the time of his next update a few months later, in which he presented even greater, accelerated results. In this more recent update he revealed that his front teeth were now reverting back. Considering what you revealed about the Orthotropic preparation phase, it could indeed be that the forwardly tilted incisors acted as a catalyst to some kind of structural change in the jaws even after helmut had stopped actively pushing against his incisors.

If I recall right, tongue thrusters aren't just pushing against their teeth, but also placing their tongue in between the teeth. In this position the tongue isn't able to drive against the palate, neither are the teeth able to make contact, explaining the lack of palatal width and the wonky occlusion. What I am really interested in finding out is what happens when you are thrusting against teeth that are kept in firm contact with each other. It seems that this would not necessarily result in an open bite, and that instead the occlusion would conveniently maintain its integrity while the tongue is expanding the arches to every direction.

The preparation phase pushes both upper and lower incisors forward and up/down respectively.  The upper incisors are tipped forward to correct the "indicator line" and the lower incisors are tipped forward to correct the "lower indicator line".  Note that it is tipping and (not pushing like FAGGA, which can push the teeth out of bone).   The upper incisor movement is done to correct the position of the upper incisors relative to the cranial vault, and the lower incisors are done to help their position relative to the mandibular plane.  Both sets of incisors then upright in their forward position due to lip seal while the wires are behind them, forming new alveolar bone around them.  In a growing child this also gives the appearance of the the entire maxilla and mandible growing around these teeth.  In most cases of vertical growth, the lower incisors and upper incisors are retroclined and over erupted and this aims to correct this, because intruding the incisors alone would be orthodontically unstable.  Then the mandible is closed via intrusion or early extraction of deciduous teeth and advanced if needed.  Red lines in these pics are the wires tilting the teeth.

image

 

image

 

image

 

image

 

image

 

image

 

Overlay between initial and final position:

image

See these surgical pics for a similar effect illustrated, you can see how the distance between the lower incisors and bottom of the chin is actually lower in the postsurgical cases:

image
image
ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/02/2021 6:43 am
auxiliary
(@auxiliarus)
500+ Forum Posts
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @qwerty135
Posted by: @progress

A couple of interesting photos from /r/mewing, one year and two year spans respectively:

Interesting how, for both, it doesn't really look like any "upswing" has occurred. In fact for the second result, which seems much more dramatic to me, it looks like the jaws grew downwards and outwards from the face. Example of "short faced" individual?

Yeah I agree. One of them shared that he had been pushing against teeth with his tongue. I have been wondering if in the end mandibular growth is really just about applying force against the alveolar process of the mandible, rather than expanding/rotating the maxilla so that the mandible can advance. As long as teeth are kept in close proximity to each other, the upper jaw should naturally adapt to changing mandibular proportions. So, what if it's not the mandible that follows the maxilla, but the maxilla that follows the mandible? At the very least, those with pronounced underbites often have a large mandibular length -- could underbite then result from not keeping the teeth together while the mandible is being developed forward by sustained lingual force? We would also become able to explain why overbite is considered difficult to fix by orthodontists: there is no convenient way to harness mandibular growth with an appliance. Just brainstorming here, hopefully you get the gist. Personally it feels kind of good and stable to keep the tip of the tongue at the small protrusion below the lower incisors, then simply cram the whole tongue towards anterior mouth against the teeth, so that the weigh of the tongue is evenly distributed on interior surface of each teeth.

 

 

It's reverse, the lower teeth have to be pushed in relative to the mandible to achieve growth. When the lower teeth push against ramus, the front ramus starts receding, while the posterior ramus starts growing. The net effect is a bigger mandible, same occlusion, and lower teeth more posterior relative to the point of the chin.

 

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Posted : 01/06/2021 3:49 pm
londonrose
(@londonrose)
10+ Forum Posts

100% lens distortion. Ian Hedley is an idiot.

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Posted : 17/10/2021 10:16 am
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