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How bad is my case and what kind of remodelling do I need?  

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PaperBag
Estimable Member

I had orthodontic treatment over a decade ago, with cervical headgear & elastics but no extractions. Current age is 26 and my IMW is 40-41mm. I heard about Orthotropics in late 2015 and have been feebly attempting mewing ever since. There may be small changes, as I think I used to be uglier in older photos, but major progress is hard to come by with a vaulted palate/torus. I can post old photos if anyone's interested, the angles and such aren't the same as I only took them to study myself in the moment.

I've tried focusing on the posterior tongue but can barely feel it no matter what and end up concentrating on the tip/middle in spite of not knowing if that's where I need to place pressure. Other things I've done include hard chewing, Rolfing, osteopathy, and thumb pulling. Working on body posture is something I highly recommend, since results are noticeable and fairly quick. The Gokhale Method postural chair is fantastic for this.

I bought the Crane from someone on here, but nobody I've inquired to even wanted to see it. All three osteopaths I went to "couldn't see" my weak profile and both orthodontists I saw were in full denial of any problems existing. The first orthodontist seemed legitimately angry and the second one was amused. He said I look like a model, which is enough of a disingenuous statement already without me also being 5'7". I've noticed a lot of professionals conflate talking about having a poorly grown face with having a severe lack of self esteem. They always say "don't talk about yourself like that" even when phrasing things clinically, as if they need to reassure you despite going to them on your own accord.

After wondering if my face looked worse than it actually is due to being underweight, I recently gained over 10 pounds in a short time, bringing me up to a downright imposing 125 pounds. 😆
I think the weight gain helped aesthetically, but something in the protein powder I used made a bunch of hair on both sides of my head fall out or break, which is very evident in the photos. I know how stupid it looks, but I can't get it fixed at the moment.

How bad do you think my CFD is and what kind of growth should I be trying to get? The things that stand out the most to me are my weak chin and poor eye support, in addition to my right side being very underdeveloped. My nose/nostrils also looks birdlike, but I don't think about it much. I thought I needed forward growth for a long time and then was obsessed about rotation, but I don't really understand what the latter would look like in my case. My lower face has poor fat distribution, as it felt chubby even when I weighed 110 pounds. (not enough bone for skin to be pulled taut) This makes me think I need more facial height, which is a concept @EddieMoney has discussed at length before.

The colors/lighting on the webcam I used are terrible after trying for an hour, no idea why everything looks so grainy. I took more photos with a different setting in case it makes my profile more visible. Anyway, I've been posting on here and other sites for years without ever getting my own face analyzed so I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Thanks for reading.

Quote
Posted : 14/05/2020 11:54 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Is your bite class 2 or 1? I can agree with the need for some lengthening. Also, how do you chew? My recent experience has made me believe chewing can be beneficial if done correctly

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 3:48 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney The last orthodontist I saw told me it was class 1, though I used to have a 12mm overjet and a small amount of it remains. The result looks better than having the incisors totally retroclined, IMO. I frequently try chewing with incisors and other nearby teeth for temporalis engagement but it's extremely time consuming. An issue I've mentioned before and seem to be alone in is having difficulty swallowing food due to a high palate. Along with having a small mouth, it makes eating take forever, nevermind when purposely chewing with certain teeth. How exactly are you chewing? When using gum or chew toys (the sensory ones for autistics, there was a thread about it here) in the past, I only used my molars and it caused my TMJ to make a noise like a gunshot in my skull, which resulted in $500 of osteopathic treatments. I was told the joint would have eventually done that anyway, as it had no range of motion at all.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 4:26 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

I can see how your orthodontists viewed your facial aesthetics as model-like. You have hollow cheeks, good cheekbones, hooded eyes and  a straight nose. Your front profile is actually good for someone with CFD, and the only improvement you really need is probably your mandible coming forward through something like a CCW maxilla rotation.

How did you look before mewing? I wouldn't mind different angles,  I'm asking to just get a general idea.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 5:02 am
Loliboly and PaperBag liked
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@eddiemoney The last orthodontist I saw told me it was class 1, though I used to have a 12mm overjet and a small amount of it remains. The result looks better than having the incisors totally retroclined, IMO. I frequently try chewing with incisors and other nearby teeth for temporalis engagement but it's extremely time consuming. An issue I've mentioned before and seem to be alone in is having difficulty swallowing food due to a high palate. Along with having a small mouth, it makes eating take forever, nevermind when purposely chewing with certain teeth. How exactly are you chewing? When using gum or chew toys (the sensory ones for autistics, there was a thread about it here) in the past, I only used my molars and it caused my TMJ to make a noise like a gunshot in my skull, which resulted in $500 of osteopathic treatments. I was told the joint would have eventually done that anyway, as it had no range of motion at all.

Rotational chewing. Going from right molars to right premolars to right canines, incisors, then left incisors, canines, premolars, molars. Alternate protraction, retraction, sideways grinding, up and down motions. I pretty much chew with as many varied forces as possible. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 2:40 pm
PaperBag liked
Progress
Member Moderator

A pleasure to get acquainted with your face @paperbag. I agree with @azrael that your maxilla is quite decent, and that it's mostly the lower third that has been set back. I can't help but think how in cases like these it may not be the maxillary positioning that is the problem as much as the lack of alveolar development in both jaws. Your lower teeth would essentially be too forward in the jaw bone, and additionally trapped behind an underdeveloped upper alveolar. This is why I suspect that the lower alveolar bone is meant to develop backward, while the upper alveolar is meant to develop forward. Such development would thus allow the mandible to slide forward. If true, likely the proper way to induce this kind of change would be to keep the teeth in contact in a specific way. Rather than only keeping the molars together, the mandible would come to rest against the premolars and canines and incisors too, and so enable the alveolar processes of each jaw to push each other to opposite directions.

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Posted : 15/05/2020 5:21 pm
eternally12, Loliboly, EddieMoney and 1 people liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@azrael Thanks for the self esteem boost, it means a lot coming from people who know their stuff.
Here's nearly every photo I've taken since 2015, just in case quantity can overcome all the differences in camera/lighting/angle, etc..

Mid-2015, pre-mewing. A few months before hearing of Orthotropics, I was convinced my face didn't grow properly but couldn't explain why/how. Terrible posture and I was still wearing a retainer many nights a week.

Late 2016. My right side profile makes me look toothless when standing properly, eyes look kind of insane from what I assume is lack of support/being underweight. Around this time is when I noticed that my right eyelid got lazy and keeps folding over.

Spring 2017, the first photo is one of the only times I ever thought I looked alright, probably due to my forehead being covered. (minimizing the contrast between it and my small lower third) Interestingly, the next photo was only a day apart and my eyes look insane again. Last two are comparing extreme chin tuck vs. people who stick their head all the way out and act like that's their jawline. (like I did in 2015) Angle sucks, though.

Late 2017, huge chin tuck. I weighed 130 pounds here, which was very fleeting because I took medication that had weight gain as a side effect.

Mid-2018. What on earth is with the serial killer eyes? I never see anyone else with CFD look this freakin' possessed. Back to around 115 pounds here.

I stopped taking photos shortly after this because I always hated looking at my face afterwards and figured there was no point in documenting my progress pics when I didn't think there was anything happening.

I've always claimed to have never had any results with mewing, but if you think you can see anything different, that would be encouraging. I'm pretty sure gaining a little weight is responsible for most of any "changes", although it's only 10-15 pounds.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 6:50 pm
Azrael liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney That definitely sounds worth a try, it sounds like a full scale workout for the mouth. I can already tell that it's not something I've ever done before, as all my chewing efforts/habits have always been very one dimensional and totally ignore all my front teeth.

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Posted : 15/05/2020 6:57 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@progress Thanks for the feedback, Progress. I'm surprised to see you say my maxilla isn't the problem, as it's been my main concern for years and I assumed that only having the mandible set back was a viewpoint of conventional orthodontics. I suppose it makes sense, though, since my profile looks alright if the bottom is covered up.
Are you saying that my bottom teeth are likely proclined too much and trapped behind my upper teeth because they're sitting in an undergrown structure?

I happened to take this photo before reading your post. Assuming it's not something that can only be seen through xrays, am I showing enough to give credence (or not) to your theory? I always thought my bite looked weird after braces, it's like my arch is fairly wide but everything is shoved so far back in my mouth to the point where sliding my mandible forward doesn't improve my profile. Smiling with my top teeth looks decent but showing all of my teeth at once illustrates how dished in they are. My mew line is around 44-45mm, if measured properly. Just focusing on touching bottom incisors and nearby teeth to top ones (if that's what you're saying) feels like a new sensation although I admit to not understanding how that gives opposing force. I used to touch molars but have been mewing with teeth apart for probably over a year, which probably wasn't the way to go for my particular case.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 7:10 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I can see a huge improvement in your nasolabial angle. It clearly shows some kind of sagittal (is that the proper term?) growth of the maxilla. 

Your before pics show a good foundation. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 9:55 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney Thanks a lot, Eddie. Yes, sagittal is the correct term.

I showed my 2007/2010 before and after braces photos to the orthodontist (the one who said I have model features) because I was trying to explain how I thought I looked worse after treatment, but still better back then compared to now. Besides the years of retainer usage, I thought weighing 165 pounds in 2010 was part of the reason why, since I was hung up on facial fat affecting appearance for a while. The doctor said my overly upturned nose had "come down" or something to that effect, where the nasal area looked better now. That seems to line up with what you said about the nasolabial angle reducing, and may also limit weight gain being the cause. He said "you must have had late growth come in at age 18" and I said I've been purposely trying to change my face since 22. At least he told me to keep it up instead of ramping up the denial. Thanks for verifying the change, I wasn't sure if it was wise to believe someone who isn't too knowledgable of these things despite being a professional. If there's one poster here who borders on all-knowing, it'd probably be you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 12:23 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@eddiemoney Thanks a lot, Eddie. Yes, sagittal is the correct term.

I showed my 2007/2010 before and after braces photos to the orthodontist (the one who said I have model features) because I was trying to explain how I thought I looked worse after treatment, but still better back then compared to now. Besides the years of retainer usage, I thought weighing 165 pounds in 2010 was part of the reason why, since I was hung up on facial fat affecting appearance for a while. The doctor said my overly upturned nose had "come down" or something to that effect, where the nasal area looked better now. That seems to line up with what you said about the nasolabial angle reducing, and may also limit weight gain being the cause. He said "you must have had late growth come in at age 18" and I said I've been purposely trying to change my face since 22. At least he told me to keep it up instead of ramping up the denial. Thanks for verifying the change, I wasn't sure if it was wise to believe a professional who isn't too knowledgable of these things. If there's one poster here who borders on all-knowing, it'd probably be you.

Thanks for the kind words. I definitely don't think I know a ton. I feel like I am only riding on the coattails of more established members and people with better results, but I nonetheless appreciate the sentiment. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 12:33 am
PaperBag liked
eternally12
Active Member

I’m inclined to agree with Progress.

It seems like you have a similar problem to me, where orthodontics made my alveolar ridge more narrow to the point it was impossible to keep my tongue up there, whilst still maintaining a decent maxillary structure. My orthodontist also proclined my lower incisors forward and upper incisors backwards which has made uncomfortable edge to edge contact on my front teeth when I try to keep my lower jaw truly relaxed. And when I do try to push my lower jaw backwards to keep my teeth biting on the molars my lower jaw in my side profile diminishes. I have had TMJ problems unfortunately ever since orthodontic treatment. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 9:46 am
PaperBag liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@azrael Thanks for the self esteem boost, it means a lot coming from people who know their stuff.

Appreciate your kind words but I am still a newbie since I only started learning about all this 4 months ago. Plenty of stuff left to learn.

Posted by: @paperbag
Screen Shot 2020 05 15 at 3.06.14 PM

 

 

I think until your mandible comes forward, this hairdo looks better than what you currently have (just my opinion, btw). The model-like looks are strong in this pic.

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 10:55 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @zeus82

You have BDD. What are you doing on this forum when you look like that? If you're bothered that much by your looks just get a chin implant/genio/double jaw and call it a day. This is some mental illness. 

He looks okay, doesn't mean he can't improve. His looks are fine though, pretty good even, so him calling his case "bad" is indeed BDD.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 3:15 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @paperbag
 
Are you saying that my bottom teeth are likely proclined too much and trapped behind my upper teeth because they're sitting in an undergrown structure?

Proclination may most certainly play part too, though it was not the main mechanism I was trying to describe. Technically, the jawbone rather than the teeth are trapped behind the maxilla. Assuming that the lower alveolar ridge is meant to develop like I hypothesized earlier, it would mean that in an underdeveloped lower alveolar the chin-incisor distance is too short. i.e. the teeth sit too forward in the jawbone to allow the lower third to project optimally. Thus, when the lower teeth are rested against the upper teeth, the whole lower dental arch should begin to shift inwards within the mandible, effectively increasing the incisor-chin distance, which would then allow the jawbone to advance forward even if the position of the occlusion does not change in relation to the skull. 

I happened to take this photo before reading your post. Assuming it's not something that can only be seen through xrays, am I showing enough to give credence (or not) to your theory? I always thought my bite looked weird after braces, it's like my arch is fairly wide but everything is shoved so far back in my mouth to the point where sliding my mandible forward doesn't improve my profile. Smiling with my top teeth looks decent but showing all of my teeth at once illustrates how dished in they are. My mew line is around 44-45mm, if measured properly. Just focusing on touching bottom incisors and nearby teeth to top ones (if that's what you're saying) feels like a new sensation although

This would unfortunately be visible in xrays only, since the problem is more about the relationship between each dental arch and its respective jawbone, than the relationship between the teeth themselves.

I admit to not understanding how that gives opposing force. I used to touch molars but have been mewing with teeth apart for probably over a year, which probably wasn't the way to go for my particular case. [

I had been keeping my molars together too ever since John Mew mentioned it, but to be honest I could never quite figure out the mechanism through which molar contact was supposed to work. I get that it is supposed to upswing the jaws, but the direction of the force that is being created by molar contact doesn't seem right, especially if one already has an overbite or an antegonial notch.

By opposing force I mean that when the lower arch pushes the upper arch forward, so does the upper arch push the lower arch backward. Newton's third law and all that. Realistically, one arch is going to yield to the other, especially when we factor in lip seal, but the process should still impact both arches to certain extent. I imagine that the dental arches could also act as expanders for each other, the lower perhaps expanding the upper outwards, but especially the upper shortening and widening the lower. Something like this:

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 4:30 pm
PaperBag liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eternally12 Yes, that must have something to do with it. I've never considered alveolar changes to be the reason jaws can't fit together, but it makes sense for orthodontists to try tilting bottom teeth forward to close the bite. I also had TMJ problems for years after treatment, the doctor even told me that constant jaw clicking was "normal". Perhaps your DNA appliance practitioner already did something about it, but I'd recommend osteopathic treatment if you have a lot of clicking/cracking or poor range of motion. My mandible couldn't move side to side or forward and was nearly locked in place. Just make sure to see a man for it, there's a ridiculous amount of force required.

@zeus82 I guess it's an honor to be lumped in with someone as attractive as Astro Sky in terms of BDD accusations. Kidding aside, the sentiment that I'm so "not ugly" I have to be mentally ill is incredibly relieving, so thank you.

@Azrael Thanks, man. I'll probably get it cut like that once barbers and hairstylists are allowed to reopen. You, EddieMoney, auxiliary, and many other users on this site are very knowledgable, and even if you think you aren't and it's just regurgitation, being able to articulate your thoughts is a skill in itself when this topic is so complex.

@auxiliarus I appreciate it, especially when knowing you're a very skeptical person who frequently casts doubt. As far as having BDD is concerned, here's my reasoning. We have different face shapes anyway, but I have a twin who has better developed bone structure than mine. I was the only one to have braces, and when treatment ended and I felt I looked worse than before in addition to new problems developing, it's easy to get paranoid that my face was badly damaged. After discovering Orthotropics and blogs like claimingpower, this idea was validated. Since appearances are such a sensitive topic, it's hard to bring it up in conversation at all, never mind getting a real answer from anyone you know personally. Obviously, this is why "my Mom says I'm handsome" is a well-known joke. If there's no specialty provider like DNA/Vivos in your area, you may consult traditional orthodontists and try to convince them of this face-focused stuff in desperate hopes they'll happen to "know a guy" from the field or supervise treatment of an expander or something. If they say there's nothing wrong with you, why would that stop your train of thought? Regular orthodontists are "the enemy", remember? It's simply par for the course that they'd stand in your way of righting the wrongs inflicted on you, right? And the search continues. CFD is unique in how insular it is. Nobody really knows about it, and it's not something people enjoy talking about, so it's going to be kept to yourself aside from forums like these as an outlet for discussion, and waging war about it in your own head all the time can't be healthy. What prolonged thinking my case was bad is seeing people like Jamo, Astro, helmutsrebl, etc.. who look like supermodels and comparing myself to them. Progress, Elwynn, and another guy (forget his name, he's late 20s with blond hair) are others who I thought had infinitely better development/changes than mine, so I didn't want to open myself up to what I assumed would be criticism on what seemed like a site filled with attractive people masquerading as below average. The feedback has been surprisingly very kind, it's a huge paradigm shift after years of constantly thinking of my face as unappealing. I think that makes a lot more sense than assuming countless people are poisoned from Lookism-type forums and think they are irredeemably ugly if they don't look like Francisco Lachowski or something.

There's definitely room for improvement, especially my mandible, but you all have helped me cool down about everything a great deal, so thanks again.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 4:30 pm
Oatmeal and Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@eternally12 Yes, that must have something to do with it. I've never considered alveolar changes to be the reason jaws can't fit together, but it makes sense for orthodontists to try tilting bottom teeth forward to close the bite. I also had TMJ problems for years after treatment, the doctor even told me that constant jaw clicking was "normal". Perhaps your DNA appliance practitioner already did something about it, but I'd recommend osteopathic treatment if you have a lot of clicking/cracking or poor range of motion. My mandible couldn't move side to side or forward and was nearly locked in place. Just make sure to see a man for it, there's a ridiculous amount of force required.

@zeus82 I guess it's an honor to be lumped in with someone as attractive as Astro Sky in terms of BDD accusations. Kidding aside, the sentiment that I'm so "not ugly" I have to be mentally ill is incredibly relieving, so thank you.

@Azrael Thanks, man. I'll probably get it cut like that once barbers and hairstylists are allowed to reopen. You, EddieMoney, auxiliary, and many other users on this site are very knowledgable, and even if you think you aren't and it's just regurgitation, being able to articulate your thoughts is a skill in itself when this topic is so complex.

@auxiliarus I appreciate it, especially when knowing you're a very skeptical person who frequently casts doubt. As far as having BDD is concerned, here's my reasoning. We have different face shapes anyway, but I have a twin who has better developed bone structure than mine. I was the only one to have braces, and when treatment ended and I felt I looked worse than before in addition to new problems developing, it's easy to get paranoid that my face was badly damaged. After discovering Orthotropics and blogs like claimingpower, this idea was validated. Since appearances are such a sensitive topic, it's hard to bring it up in conversation at all, never mind getting a real answer from anyone you know personally. Obviously, this is why "my Mom says I'm handsome" is a well-known joke. If there's no specialty provider like DNA/Vivos in your area, you may consult traditional orthodontists and try to convince them of this face-focused stuff in desperate hopes they'll happen to "know a guy" from the field or supervise treatment of an expander or something. If they say there's nothing wrong with you, why would that stop your train of thought? Regular orthodontists are "the enemy", remember? It's simply par for the course that they'd stand in your way of righting the wrongs inflicted on you, right? And the search continues. CFD is unique in how insular it is. Nobody really knows about it, and it's not something people enjoy talking about, so it's going to be kept to yourself aside from forums like these as an outlet for discussion, and waging war about it in your own head all the time can't be healthy. What prolonged thinking my case was bad is seeing people like Jamo, Astro, helmutsrebl, etc.. who look like supermodels and comparing myself to them. Progress, Elwynn, and another guy (forget his name, he's late 20s with blond hair) are others who I thought had infinitely better development/changes than mine, so I didn't want to open myself up to what I assumed would be criticism on what seemed like a site filled with attractive people masquerading as below average. The feedback has been surprisingly very kind, it's a huge paradigm shift after years of constantly thinking of my face as unappealing. I think that makes a lot more sense than assuming countless people are poisoned from Lookism-type forums and think they are irredeemably ugly if they don't look like Francisco Lachowski or something.

There's definitely room for improvement, especially my mandible, but you all have helped me cool down about everything a great deal, so thanks again.

No problem, BDD is normal when you see so many good-looking models, yet what they don't tell you is how much Photoshop/angle distortion/lighting/flexing/make-up/grooming goes into play. And not only those things, I bet models literally do something like cool their faces before taking pictures just to make their skin slightly tighter.

 

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Posted : 16/05/2020 8:28 pm
PaperBag liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@progress That's a great theory and certainly worth trying. I used to think the only possible solution was maxilla rotation, with the idea that the mandible always follows, but it doesn't hold much water if my mandible is already considerably behind and didn't move because it couldn't. Lip seal having an effect makes sense, though I wonder if anterior tongue pushing is a detriment or not. (assuming some of it would touch teeth) There may be a chance of putting too much pressure on one arch, unless it would always even out, like you said.

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Posted : 17/05/2020 6:35 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@Progress I've been going through your progress thread and you said this a year ago:
_
At the moment, it feels like the jutting and the tongue posture complement and stabilize each other (so to answer your question, yes I'm jutting most of the time). This dynamic should ensure that the pterygoids will, over time, develop as they are meant to. I was also in brief contact with another person who claimed that once he began jutting his jaw out due to insecurity, his whole mandible reshaped itself in positive way in just a couple of months. One thing I have noticed is that while jutting, the lower lip rests against the lower incisors, which has been causing a little soreness in the teeth. I suspect that this may tip the incisors inwards over time, increasing chin projection.
_

You've been doing this the whole time since then?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/05/2020 10:28 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @paperbag

@Progress I've been going through your progress thread and you said this a year ago:
_
At the moment, it feels like the jutting and the tongue posture complement and stabilize each other (so to answer your question, yes I'm jutting most of the time). This dynamic should ensure that the pterygoids will, over time, develop as they are meant to. I was also in brief contact with another person who claimed that once he began jutting his jaw out due to insecurity, his whole mandible reshaped itself in positive way in just a couple of months. One thing I have noticed is that while jutting, the lower lip rests against the lower incisors, which has been causing a little soreness in the teeth. I suspect that this may tip the incisors inwards over time, increasing chin projection.
_

You've been doing this the whole time since then?

Pretty soon after writing that I got distracted with other postural experiments. Consistency is not my strong suit. I often start wondering, hey what if I do this or combine it with that... then a certain sub-technique may feel like the answer for a while, until I realize that other aspects of the overall technique aren't complementing it. So postural anatomy has become this 3D puzzle where I am trying to figure out which actions complement or oppose each other and what their ultimate consequences are.

That being said, I have circled back to jutting my jaw, only instead of jutting it past the maxillary arch I am now jutting against it, trying to keep each tooth in contact with its counterpart.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/05/2020 10:20 am
PaperBag liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @paperbag

@Progress I've been going through your progress thread and you said this a year ago:
_
At the moment, it feels like the jutting and the tongue posture complement and stabilize each other (so to answer your question, yes I'm jutting most of the time). This dynamic should ensure that the pterygoids will, over time, develop as they are meant to. I was also in brief contact with another person who claimed that once he began jutting his jaw out due to insecurity, his whole mandible reshaped itself in positive way in just a couple of months. One thing I have noticed is that while jutting, the lower lip rests against the lower incisors, which has been causing a little soreness in the teeth. I suspect that this may tip the incisors inwards over time, increasing chin projection.
_

You've been doing this the whole time since then?

Pretty soon after writing that I got distracted with other postural experiments. Consistency is not my strong suit. I often start wondering, hey what if I do this or combine it with that... then a certain sub-technique may feel like the answer for a while, until I realize that other aspects of the overall technique aren't complementing it. So postural anatomy has become this 3D puzzle where I am trying to figure out which actions complement or oppose each other and what their ultimate consequences are.

That being said, I have circled back to jutting my jaw, only instead of jutting it past the maxillary arch I am now jutting against it, trying to keep each tooth in contact with its counterpart.

Won't this cause a tilt in front upper incisors? The same way a tongue thrust does.

 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 11:53 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus
 

Won't this cause a tilt in front upper incisors? The same way a tongue thrust does.

 

Wouldn't mind if it did, considering the slight retroclination I currently have. As I explained above, this experiment is resting on the assumption that the upper and lower teeth are either going to tilt or alveolarly develop to opposite directions, which should allow the mandible to advance and the deep bite to resolve. So far the lower teeth have experienced more soreness than the upper teeth. I think that lip seal may tilt the balance in favor of the upper teeth. 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 4:09 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

RE: BDD accusations... my take is - this work is hard and we all have to try and cope somehow. Success doesn't result from giving up, which is kind of what a BDD label seemingly implies in a certain context. It's good you talk to people about your feelings though @paperbag, I just kept mine bottled in and that took its toll on me.

I quickly read over this thread and there was mention of bringing the shoulders back/upper chest up, this is good advice I think. I like to roll one shoulder after the other like Gokhale suggests, and somehow that just works better than rolling them both back at the same time to activate the postural chain I believe works for me. Part of the chain is focus on the tip of the tongue with forward and upward force, and then naturally the back of the tongue exerts the opposite forces. Another part is the way @progress describes chin tuck. Then you get core engagement, and everything seems all set. I like the way I saw it described on the VoiceGym website: "like a cobra" (re: the posture of the tongue). The other thing is that osteopathy (at least a couple visits) can be very helpful for these cases. They can adjust the position of the hips and sphenoid bone which I found was helpful toward bringing the mandible forward (or does the neck move backward?), though I'm not sure exactly how it works. I just recall after pregnancy, my hips were messed up and my mandible was closer to my neck, but a lot of the posture work and the help of some osteopathy has since largely resolved the issue.

FYI, other than on this forum, helmutsrebl is pretty widely regarded as a fraud (by which I mean, he's suspected of touting his surgery results as mewing). His case was recently presented on the Orthotropics Facebook page, and every other person was doubting his results, suspecting certain surgeries and pointing out various evidences of photoshopping his images. Mike Mew is trying to get an interview with him, and as much as I appreciate the Mews work, I wouldn't be surprised if the Orthotropics premise was credited for helmutsrebl's result, with Mike all too eager to give him a platform to do so. And helmutsrebl is such an elitist he can't even be bothered to make a proper post here that goes in to detail about his routine eg: how does he bonesmash, thumbpull etc, or even post on this forum: he has employed someone else to do it half-heartedly for him. Is this the behaviour of someone who has the heart to help others? Also, the main thrust behind looking attractive is to help ensure successful mate acquisition and to improve your various functions/overall health. The acquisition of narcissistic supply from Instagram and incel/lookism forums doesn't necessarily lend toward these goals, as women don't tend to appreciate dandyism like some men do. At least my thinking about it is, why get a Patrick Bateman type of guy when you can get a salt of the earth man who is just as attractive (and more naturally so to boot) and able to love you properly? So I mean... don't let this guy's case get you down. It's so bogus on so many levels.

 

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 19/05/2020 4:44 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus
 

Won't this cause a tilt in front upper incisors? The same way a tongue thrust does.

 

Wouldn't mind if it did, considering the slight retroclination I currently have. As I explained above, this experiment is resting on the assumption that the upper and lower teeth are either going to tilt or alveolarly develop to opposite directions, which should allow the mandible to advance and the deep bite to resolve. So far the lower teeth have experienced more soreness than the upper teeth. I think that lip seal may tilt the balance in favor of the upper teeth. 

Isn't your over-bite caused by maxillary deficiency? What's your mew indicator line like?

She seemed to have an overbite which got fixed by change in maxilla position.

By the way, I accidentally found out that boron in rats apparently decreases metabolism of bone in the face? Especially in the alveolar bone.

Source : https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18361451/

I'd make a thread about it, but I'd be spamming tbh.

 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 5:23 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Isn't your over-bite caused by maxillary deficiency? What's your mew indicator line like? 

Not sure. My mew indicator is at 50mm. Maxillary deficiency is a tricky concept to define, made more complicated by the fact that the lower portion of the maxilla is made of a different, more malleable kind of bone than the upper portion. Maxillary deficiency and deficiency of the alveolar bone could be two separate phenomenon. Since the maxilla grows downwards, would maxillary deficiency not translate to a toothless smile? I on the other hand have a slightly gummy one.

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Posted : 19/05/2020 5:37 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Isn't your over-bite caused by maxillary deficiency? What's your mew indicator line like? 

Not sure. My mew indicator is at 50mm. Maxillary deficiency is a tricky concept to define, made more complicated by the fact that the lower portion of the maxilla is made of a different, more malleable kind of bone than the upper portion. Maxillary deficiency and deficiency of the alveolar bone could be two separate phenomenon. Since the maxilla grows downwards, would maxillary deficiency not translate to a toothless smile? I on the other hand have a slightly gummy one.

Did you mew indicator change from mewing? And yes it is indeed a tricky concept, I also think most changes happen to lower maxilla.

Also do you do tongue chewing with hard gum against the front palate?

 

As for the toothless smile, it depends, I think eventually skin stretches out and adapts, I shortened my anterior face and have extra skin/fat now on my anterior side of my face, coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

I believe the face to remodel faster than the rest of the body, which remodels at around 10%/year, also obviously with younger age there's also more remodeling. Man if I ever have kids, tongue chewing and hard diet will be mandatory, LOL.

 

 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 6:03 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies I'm not sure if it can be called talking about feelings when I never really get that far. It's more like having to try and formulate a way to describe my issues and the general concept of CFD in a few succinct bullet points with all emotion removed before the other person forms a scowl and lectures me about self esteem anyway. Like you said, the work is hard, so getting it hand-waved away is incredibly frustrating.

About bringing the shoulders and upper chest up, the last and only good osteopath I saw said he tells people to stand up straight by pretending they're aiming a laser straight from their chest. It works very well for sounding so basic. I haven't paid too much attention to the Gokhale exercises aside from glide-walking and the Rolfer I saw claimed that some of her techniques were incorrect. I'm inclined to take it with a grain of salt, but I did see her pick up bunches of leaves in the yard while perfectly hip hinged. And she was 60+ years old. The results I got from Rolfing didn't last as long as the osteopathic treatments, though I was repeatedly told to do yoga and I didn't want to. We seem to have had the same areas treated with osteopathy, but your results sound very impressive.

Helmutsrebl's results being surgical are quite possible for how insane they are, though I haven't seen any of these other sites that try to expose him. Mike Mew seems to waver between minimizing what adults can expect from oral posture and then claiming things like Kylie Jenner's botox injections and other procedures were natural results from mewing. It kind of makes sense for him to be excited for his work to be spreading that he'll take any platform he can get. Helmut posting here would be nice, though he did reply to countless Reddit posts a while ago, so it's not like he's completely unhelpful. If his results aren't surgical, maybe he thinks it's not worth his time to post on here when he already got what he wanted from the sea of information on Orthotropics and there are only so many ways to say the same pieces of advice. I thought his bone smashing and other techniques were only introduced at the end when the main changes already happened.

I can understand what you mean about dandyism if you're talking about models like Jordan Barrett being placed on pedestals when some of those models' looks don't fit into what people universally find attractive, but if someone like Ryan Gosling is the antithesis of this, it's a moot point when most of us look far, far worse than he does and both options are similarly out of reach.

Someone who looks like Patrick Bateman is still in the top percentage of appearance whether it's natural or not. My ideal look for years has been 2000's Johnny Depp, and he looks more like a regular guy than some of these models but his bone structure is absolutely ridiculous.

Semantics may be a problem when people who say they want to look like a model are taken literally; a lot of men with CFD just want to look attractive in general, but saying "model" is faster than naming someone in particular or describing features. (on a side note, it's also possible that becoming interested in modelling, haute couture, and such may just be a result of doing a 180 from people hating their appearance and then discovering a field where people get the same amount of fixation on appearance but in a positive way, it just becomes more alluring than being generally attractive)

Helmut looked fantastic in his before picture and I prefer his look then over his results, which are of course still great and impressive.

I was first aware of thinking I looked weird/unattractive since the age of 8, which was ~2 years after my facial development started going downhill, so just diluting it to being depressed over not looking like a 10/10 guy who may have had surgery is a vast oversimplification. I don't want to be lumped in with the extremity of Lookism, I've never posted there.

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Posted : 19/05/2020 8:16 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@paperbag Re: broaching CFD with others, it's a tough subject and I haven't gotten anyone but my husband to listen, so he supports me breastfeeding my daughter who's an older toddler now, otherwise I do get questioned occasionally although that began from day 1 if you can believe it. So we can't even talk about it, and on top of that there are lots of barriers and unspoken social rules surrounding breastfeeding which is our best bet to prevent CFD. And people have weird ideas about it, too. I saw a funny comment from John Mew about "busy moms" with respect to the lack of breastfeeding, but I don't think it's that simple. There are many things going wrong all at once and it's leading to a lot of failure on this front, and it certainly isn't fair to play it off like moms are simply too busy. It can be so painful though, to talk about these things with people, for example a family member recently had a baby, and I taught them about how to prevent flat-head syndrome, the importance of keeping the nasal passages clear and closing the mouth if it opens when it's not supposed to. Even gave them a product called a Snot Sucker (along with some other baby things) for their baby shower to keep the nasal passages clear. Felt so bad when I was told my snot sucker gift was "soooo dumb". I see them later with baby, and he has his mouth open non-stop and flat-head syndrome (which is a type of skull deformity that generally begins in infancy, sometimes in utero). I ask about it gently, too embarrassed to even bring up the snot sucker, and they reply, oh, we remembered what you said, but the doctor told us it's all fine! So they do nothing even with access to knowledge and products that can help prevent these issues. Doctor told them it's fine absolves them of responsibility to prevent CFD. I think maybe a different approach is needed, I'll post about it in another thread.

I have developed complex feelings about discussing appearances. Previously, I approached the subject matter with an interest in learning. Finding myself in the odd situation of previously being good-looking, then lost it all in a car accident and became ugly, to now recently restoring myself back to good-looking (for my age) and the comments I get are just embarrassing and hurtful, even though the comments are intended to be kind and uplifting. I didn't mean to lump you with the lookism forum crowd, and I actually don't think they're too bad and have learnt a lot from those incel forums with respect to this work. And I have to say, what I'm experiencing, that they are right about the concept of lookism. I'm probably being too cynical about this but recent experiences are what the incel lexicon would call "black pilling". But I've come so far I can't fall in to despair like that. And I suspect that people just don't like to talk about CFD because there can be this element of despair about it.

Re: Helmut - I brought him up because I sensed that you were at least in the past troubled by comparing yourself. Comparing is natural and can be informative IMO, but sometimes it's unproductive and this was at least my experience with Helmut's case in particular. What got me to stop concerning myself over his case was seeing how some people on the Orthotropics Facebook page were pointing out the warping in his images (which is evidence of Photoshopping). Interesting how Mike must have seen those posts pointing to the photoshop evidence, yet he wants to interview Helmut anyway. What bothered me about his case? Seeing the side profile image where his chin projects so much, and it got me wondering how I could avoid that result, which then devolved in to more questioning of habits... as if we don't do enough of this during this work. In my last post I was harsh on Helmut, but I think something we also need to consider is some standards around here; coming here with photoshopped images is going to throw in to question what is possible with all this work, when that's already in question to begin with. This can lead to undue concern surrounding this work when it is so difficult to begin with.

Re: the invoking Patrick Bateman, what I was trying to convey was a comparison to a high-status, attractive yet heartless guy to what I called a salt of the earth man, or a man of little status but comparable attractiveness and with a pure heart. And the thing about dandyism, which I don't mean in a pejorative sense, but to mention how it's not relatable to women because we're more emotional-centred and so prioritize feelings such as feeling safe, not necessarily a particular aesthetic. Anyway for what it's worth, to my eyes you either began with a decent base or your work has developed one, and I think you can keep improving if you keep at it.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 4:38 am
PaperBag liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @greensmoothies

What got me to stop concerning myself over his case was seeing how some people on the Orthotropics Facebook page were pointing out the warping in his images (which is evidence of Photoshopping).

Mind posting the evidence of the supposed warping? I'd like to see them as well (I don't have Facebook).

Posted by: @greensmoothies

What bothered me about his case? Seeing the side profile image where his chin projects so much,

It wasn't just his chin or mandible, but several aspects of his face. Particularly the eye area:

The improvements to Canthal tilt and eye hooding is something I've regularly seen in hard mewing progress pics on Reddit.

 Edit: He got those Photshop accusations on Reddit as well and then the dude commented a link to a video of him and that shut everyone up.

Dude must be going through an insane amount of trouble to get implants, buccal fat removal, fillers, surgeries and then manipulating all his images to model-tier looks.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 4:56 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @greensmoothies

What got me to stop concerning myself over his case was seeing how some people on the Orthotropics Facebook page were pointing out the warping in his images (which is evidence of Photoshopping).

Mind posting the evidence of the supposed warping? I'd like to see them as well (I don't have Facebook).

Posted by: @greensmoothies

What bothered me about his case? Seeing the side profile image where his chin projects so much,

It wasn't just his chin or mandible, but several aspects of his face. Particularly the eye area:

The improvements to Canthal tilt and eye hooding is something I've regularly seen in hard mewing progress pics on Reddit.

 Edit: He got those Photshop accusations on Reddit as well and then the dude commented a link to a video of him and that shut everyone up.

Dude must be going through an insane amount of trouble to get implants, buccal fat removal, fillers, surgeries and then manipulating all his images to model-tier looks.

Dude, I'm not removing pictures from a FB page to place them here without permission and because you can't be bothered to sign up. The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/craniofacialactiongroup/permalink/2971009512975379/

In his video, his chin doesn't seem to project like the side-profile image.

I know you can get a lot of progress with hard mewing because I measured while I did that for 2 years.

Who knows what his motivations are. My read on it is a pathological need for admiration.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 12:41 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@progress I think the alveolar theory is sound on its own, and perhaps accounts for why most people with great facial development don't have crazy projection but are compact and proportionate. Seeing others jut their mandible past their front teeth always makes me think they're going to dislocate their jaw, I've never been able to do that. Lately, I've tried to apply the tongue ballooning concept to getting more teeth to meet, (teeth ballooning) which sometimes feels like a placebo as opposed to actually performing a movement but it helps. This seems like a more productive thing to focus on now, versus tongue posture obsession that is largely fruitless. My front teeth haven't had contact like this, whether intentional or at rest, in a decade at the very least, so it makes sense that some kind of benefit has to come out of it.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 7:11 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @greensmoothies

What got me to stop concerning myself over his case was seeing how some people on the Orthotropics Facebook page were pointing out the warping in his images (which is evidence of Photoshopping).

Mind posting the evidence of the supposed warping? I'd like to see them as well (I don't have Facebook).

Posted by: @greensmoothies

What bothered me about his case? Seeing the side profile image where his chin projects so much,

It wasn't just his chin or mandible, but several aspects of his face. Particularly the eye area:

The improvements to Canthal tilt and eye hooding is something I've regularly seen in hard mewing progress pics on Reddit.

 Edit: He got those Photshop accusations on Reddit as well and then the dude commented a link to a video of him and that shut everyone up.

Dude must be going through an insane amount of trouble to get implants, buccal fat removal, fillers, surgeries and then manipulating all his images to model-tier looks.

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

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Posted : 21/05/2020 10:29 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

 

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Dude, I'm not removing pictures from a FB page to place them here without permission and because you can't be bothered to sign up. The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/craniofacialactiongroup/permalink/2971009512975379/

Tone down the condescension, you are the person who brought up the warped images in your reply, I just asked to see them (since the whole idea is nonsensical anyway). And I am not bothered to sign up because I deleted mine since Facebook is a privacy nightmare of the highest order. And what is it? Is it a group or a page? You keep mentioning "FB page" and your link takes me to a group.

Edit: Those pictures belong to helmutstrebl so I don't get why you are acting like it's property of this group? Since we are talking about permission, did this group (or the particular members) ask for helmut's permission when they "removed" it from his profiles and checked it for frauding? Funny how you mention permission for a few pics in one of the most privacy-compromised sites on the planet.

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Who knows what his motivations are. My read on it is a pathological need for admiration.

Wow. I'm not surprised why many people don't post their transformations since they could be labelled for "admiration-seekers" by people like you. Besides, that guy is barely posting his progress anywhere except for his own Insta. If he was looking for admiration, the best place to start would have been with a YouTube channel or in orthotropics communities like TGW, r/orthotropics and r/mewing. Dude seems to be minding his own business after succeeding in his journey and he still gets flamed for it. And for what, for not "helping others out"?

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Posted : 21/05/2020 3:00 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

Dude, you are not believing him, you've made that abundantly clear plenty of times. It's okay, you are entitled to your opinion. It would have been better if the said opinion was well-informed.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/05/2020 3:05 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

Dude, you are not believing him, you've made that abundantly clear plenty of times. It's okay, you are entitled to your opinion. It would have been better if the said opinion was well-informed.

 

I never said he made no progress, I just said his before-afters aren't well aligned as the angle is quite different of the cameras. Don't you think it's weird that in the after his eye is different shape and size, and his ear is also different shape? This suggests a significantly different camera angle or camera lens being used.

If he mewed there's a 99,9% chance he made progress, but I'm sorry I won't believe that he got those cheek-lines from mewing or losing body-fat. I just won't believe it, there's some kind of frauding going on.

It's only my own opinion though not a fact.

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Posted : 21/05/2020 3:08 pm
Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael

 

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Dude, I'm not removing pictures from a FB page to place them here without permission and because you can't be bothered to sign up. The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/craniofacialactiongroup/permalink/2971009512975379/

Tone down the condescension, you are the person who brought up the warped images in your reply, I just asked to see them (since the whole idea is nonsensical anyway). And I am not bothered to sign up because I deleted mine since Facebook is a privacy nightmare of the highest order. And what is it? Is it a group or a page? You keep mentioning "FB page" and your link takes me to a group.

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Who knows what his motivations are. My read on it is a pathological need for admiration.

Wow. I'm not surprised why many people don't post their transformations since they could be labelled for "admiration-seekers" by people like you. Besides, that guy is barely posting his progress anywhere except for his own Insta. If he was looking for admiration, the best place to start would have been with a YouTube channel or in orthotropics communities like TGW, r/orthotropics and r/mewing. Dude seems to be minding his own business after succeeding in his journey and he still gets flamed for it. And for what, for not "helping others out"?

To be honest in @greensmoothies 's defense, the guy did condescend on other people on the looksmax forum, I went through his posts, he got a lot of admiration.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/05/2020 3:09 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

Dude, you are not believing him, you've made that abundantly clear plenty of times. It's okay, you are entitled to your opinion. It would have been better if the said opinion was well-informed.

 

I never said he made no progress, I just said his before-afters aren't well aligned as the angle is quite different of the cameras. Don't you think it's weird that in the after his eye is different shape and size, and his ear is also different shape? This suggests a significantly different camera angle or camera lens being used.

If he mewed there's a 99,9% chance he made progress, but I'm sorry I won't believe that he got those cheek-lines from mewing or losing body-fat. I just won't believe it, there's some kind of frauding going on.

It's only my own opinion though not a fact.

Thank you. I just wish this gawdd*mn dude dropped in here every now and then to answer and clarify everyone's doubts.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/05/2020 3:19 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

Dude, you are not believing him, you've made that abundantly clear plenty of times. It's okay, you are entitled to your opinion. It would have been better if the said opinion was well-informed.

 

I never said he made no progress, I just said his before-afters aren't well aligned as the angle is quite different of the cameras. Don't you think it's weird that in the after his eye is different shape and size, and his ear is also different shape? This suggests a significantly different camera angle or camera lens being used.

If he mewed there's a 99,9% chance he made progress, but I'm sorry I won't believe that he got those cheek-lines from mewing or losing body-fat. I just won't believe it, there's some kind of frauding going on.

It's only my own opinion though not a fact.

Thank you. I just wish this gawdd*mn dude dropped in here every now and then to answer and clarify everyone's doubts.

Everything I say on the forum is an opinion, not a fact. And I'd wish he came to this forum to prove our doubts wrong as well.

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Posted : 21/05/2020 3:33 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael

 

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Dude, I'm not removing pictures from a FB page to place them here without permission and because you can't be bothered to sign up. The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/craniofacialactiongroup/permalink/2971009512975379/

Tone down the condescension, you are the person who brought up the warped images in your reply, I just asked to see them (since the whole idea is nonsensical anyway). And I am not bothered to sign up because I deleted mine since Facebook is a privacy nightmare of the highest order. And what is it? Is it a group or a page? You keep mentioning "FB page" and your link takes me to a group.

Edit: Those pictures belong to helmutstrebl so I don't get why you are acting like it's property of this group? Since we are talking about permission, did this group (or the particular members) ask for helmut's permission when they "removed" it from his profiles and checked it for frauding? Funny how you mention permission for a few pics in one of the most privacy-compromised sites on the planet.

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Who knows what his motivations are. My read on it is a pathological need for admiration.

Wow. I'm not surprised why many people don't post their transformations since they could be labelled for "admiration-seekers" by people like you. Besides, that guy is barely posting his progress anywhere except for his own Insta. If he was looking for admiration, the best place to start would have been with a YouTube channel or in orthotropics communities like TGW, r/orthotropics and r/mewing. Dude seems to be minding his own business after succeeding in his journey and he still gets flamed for it. And for what, for not "helping others out"?

Find someone else who will do this labour of taking the images and posting them here, then. I don't want any part of it. That's my boundary and I have my reasons, now back off it already. Doesn't really matter if it's a page or a group.

That was simply my read on the situation. If I have brought harm to Helmet by causing hurt feelings, I will provide remedy so he's brought up to repair, and then he can also bring the details about his routine at the same time :-).

But nevermind the feelings of the original poster of this thread who's thread got overtaken by discussing this Helmet guy. Because I feel bad and partly responsible for that (and all I was trying to say was, hey, don't worry about it because his pics are fake). So please go now and take this subject to where it belongs if you feel it must be discussed.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 21/05/2020 4:31 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @greensmoothies

Find someone else who will do this labour of taking the images and posting them here, then. I don't want any part of it. That's my boundary and I have my reasons, now back off it already. Doesn't really matter if it's a page or a group.

Doesn't make sense for me to ask someone else for what you are talking about but whatever, I guess. However, next time you try to discredit someone, make sure if you are actually willing to show compelling evidence for it or it's for the best to not talk about it especially since you are questioning his progress.

Posted by: @greensmoothies

That was simply my read on the situation. If I have brought harm to Helmet by causing hurt feelings, I will provide remedy so he's brought up to repair, and then he can also bring the details about his routine at the same time :-).

I don't know where you get this idea or why you are feeling so entitled but no one has to give details about their routines. If they are doing it on their own accord, it's great. If not, it's unfortunate but it doesn't automatically mean they are "fake" or "frauds". Not sure about these supposed "warped" photos but you certainly seem to have some really warped ideas when it comes to people progressing with mewing and sharing it.

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Posted : 22/05/2020 3:31 am
WickedFinger
Active Member
Posted by: @greensmoothies

If I have brought harm to Helmet by causing hurt feelings, I will provide remedy so he's brought up to repair

What kind of remedy do you provide?

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Posted : 24/11/2020 2:49 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

After several months of jutting my bottom jaw forward against my top teeth, trying to remodel the alveolar ridge, I don't think it really did anything. Now I'm starting to think my lip seal has been terrible this whole time; it may be visible in some of the photos I posted that my mouth isn't fully closed, and that's with effort being made because I was always aware of it. Before having braces, my front 4-6 teeth were the most flared out and crooked (possibly tongue thrusted), and it makes sense because that part of my lips always feels a little open. Those teeth are still slightly pushed out, too. I recently realized that I wasn't putting much effort in using the middle of my top lip to seal it, which finally makes my mouth feel closed.

Does anyone have any speculation about what would happen to the alveolar ridges upon perfecting a lip seal? It sort of feels like I would return to a flatter philtrum if I were to put suction pressure on my upper teeth, and I can't see how it could help the lower jaw move, if even possible.

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Posted : 04/12/2020 4:15 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

After several months of jutting my bottom jaw forward against my top teeth, trying to remodel the alveolar ridge, I don't think it really did anything. Now I'm starting to think my lip seal has been terrible this whole time; it may be visible in some of the photos I posted that my mouth isn't fully closed, and that's with effort being made because I was always aware of it. Before having braces, my front 4-6 teeth were the most flared out and crooked (possibly tongue thrusted), and it makes sense because that part of my lips always feels a little open. Those teeth are still slightly pushed out, too. I recently realized that I wasn't putting much effort in using the middle of my top lip to seal it, which finally makes my mouth feel closed.

Does anyone have any speculation about what would happen to the alveolar ridges upon perfecting a lip seal? It sort of feels like I would return to a flatter philtrum if I were to put suction pressure on my upper teeth, and I can't see how it could help the lower jaw move, if even possible.

You're absolutely right, this is what I experienced when I was experimenting with forceful suction pressure, it simply pulls the maxilla backwards.

Also your face looks quite normal, your mandible is recessed but nothing that pushing maxilla forward can't fix, why don't you just push the lower maxilla forward with passive tongue forces?

This is what will approximately happen to your alveolar ridge if you do so:

I am not sure if you can see it clearly in the picture, but basically your teeth move forward and your alveolar ridge follows.

Your face doesn't need any more shortening, it's already short, so you shouldn't bother too much with upwards forces. I think just resting your tongue like this will do what you're trying to do:

I experimented with this, just relaxing my tongue there, I also remember someone's otrthotropic doctor advising this and it worked really well for forward growth. I am currently trying to widen my ICW, but if I went for forward growth I'd definitely place my tongue there and just relax it against the palate, letting my jaw relax with it to push forward.

In fact you can use your tongue to prevent your mandible from dropping forward like this, without using your mastication muscles.

Good luck!

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Posted : 09/01/2021 2:10 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@auxiliarus Thanks for the detailed answer, much appreciated. I have no idea why suction is recommended so often; it's extremely difficult to achieve and sustain, yet usually accomplishes the opposite of what you want.

I've been resting my tongue on the spot you mentioned for hours today and it must be the same thing I did years ago to curve my philtrum because the pressure is quite familiar and strong enough to feel like pushing despite most likely not consciously putting effort behind it. Wavering between many other techniques is probably why any progress stalled out long ago, though I also stopped this one because it seems like only my front four teeth will be affected and thus possibly flare out in an ugly overjet. One of the first pointers in oral posture is that using the tip of the tongue is incorrect, no matter what kind of results are needed, but in this case feels like it's unavoidable. How would the rest of the maxilla/alveolar ridge catch up? The example you've shown looks good, but I don't understand if his other teeth not pictured would have changed position to catch up or stayed the same while somehow not looking disproportionate with the front ones.

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Posted : 10/01/2021 2:24 am
krollic
Reputable Member

guys, the suction hold is meant to be very gentle and is achieved naturally and automatically when you do an adult swallow + when your tongue is trained enough; there's just no way around that assuming you have the palatal volume and appropriate posture

that's also not how vacuums work @paperbag

when you swallow saliva, the vacuum that's created between the tongue and the palate pulls the maxilla towards the tongue, yes, but it also equally pulls the tongue towards the palate. because there is now no distance between the part of the tongue and palate where the vacuum is taking place, they are pulled against each other, thus these antagonistic forces are canceled out/neutralized and they stop moving in real time. I tend to think of it like two objects in outer space: they get pulled towards each other equally and then they both stop moving once they are pulled against each other.

the suction hold exists (imo) to keep the tongue adhered to the palate in a stable fashion while also spreading it out to help with palatal expansion. the slight downwards pull of the tongue under its own weight and/or it pushing off the palate somewhat as it's spread out by the suction hold, is more than accounted for by the tongues resting muscle tone upward forces that it should naturally and passively exert. this results in a net upwards force, at least on most of the tongue. (@progress reckons that the back third is meant to pull down on the maxilla in order to rotate it upwards, I believe. forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth)

if you still haven't achieved an effortless/unconscious upwards tongue force + suction hold as of yet, something is wrong with your method or training or posture or perhaps what you're working with. it should certainly not be "extremely difficult to achieve and sustain". For me it requires a conscious effort to not have a suction hold going on. Even when I close my mouth, have my teeth together and avoid automatically swallowing, my tongue is pushing upwards against the palate on its own, even without the inevitable suction hold that is to come.

babies do this too

I hope I articulated that decently enough

cheers

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Posted : 10/01/2021 4:20 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@auxiliarus Thanks for the detailed answer, much appreciated. I have no idea why suction is recommended so often; it's extremely difficult to achieve and sustain, yet usually accomplishes the opposite of what you want.

I've been resting my tongue on the spot you mentioned for hours today and it must be the same thing I did years ago to curve my philtrum because the pressure is quite familiar and strong enough to feel like pushing despite most likely not consciously putting effort behind it. Wavering between many other techniques is probably why any progress stalled out long ago, though I also stopped this one because it seems like only my front four teeth will be affected and thus possibly flare out in an ugly overjet. One of the first pointers in oral posture is that using the tip of the tongue is incorrect, no matter what kind of results are needed, but in this case feels like it's unavoidable. How would the rest of the maxilla/alveolar ridge catch up? The example you've shown looks good, but I don't understand if his other teeth not pictured would have changed position to catch up or stayed the same while somehow not looking disproportionate with the front ones.

You're probably pushing too hard if you're only feeling the pressure on the front 4 teeth. The way I do it is I put the tip of my tongue there, I swallow and then I simply rest the tongue against the palate without any force.

If you tense your tongue it becomes narrow and long, but if you relax it it will widen. So the trick is is to simply relax your tongue as much as possible against the palate without letting it fall off. Passive suction, not actively sucking, should help with keeping your tongue from falling off. The way to achieve passive suction is to just suck your tongue actively and once it's suctioned simply release the muscle tension you used to suck it up there.

Once you fully relax your tongue you will actually feel the tongue everywhere on the gums above your teeth, especially on the sides in the front(somewhere around above canines).

I've been doing this soft mewing technique for quite long and you can see from the pictures that it did not only push my 4 teeth forward. Also I have close to perfect occlusion incisor against incisor now, whereas before I had a very subtle overbite.

Either way most of the force is on the alveolar ridge and not the teeth, the whole structure will move as one.

Also that is not an example of someone else, that is my own teeth used as an example. I'll upload my occlusion and pictures of my teeth to quench your worries. You will see that there is no holes between teeth, the rear teeth simply followed the front teeth and my occlusion I believe is near perfect, though I barely know anything about occlusion:

My ICW is about 35mm and IMW is about 50mm, that's why my front teeth look so narrow compared to the read =/

 

 

 

 

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Posted : 10/01/2021 5:41 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @krollic

guys, the suction hold is meant to be very gentle and is achieved naturally and automatically when you do an adult swallow + when your tongue is trained enough; there's just no way around that assuming you have the palatal volume and appropriate posture

that's also not how vacuums work @paperbag

when you swallow saliva, the vacuum that's created between the tongue and the palate pulls the maxilla towards the tongue, yes, but it also equally pulls the tongue towards the palate. because there is now no distance between the part of the tongue and palate where the vacuum is taking place, they are pulled against each other, thus these antagonistic forces are canceled out/neutralized and they stop moving in real time. I tend to think of it like two objects in outer space: they get pulled towards each other equally and then they both stop moving once they are pulled against each other.

the suction hold exists (imo) to keep the tongue adhered to the palate in a stable fashion while also spreading it out to help with palatal expansion. the slight downwards pull of the tongue under its own weight and/or it pushing off the palate somewhat as it's spread out by the suction hold, is more than accounted for by the tongues resting muscle tone upward forces that it should naturally and passively exert. this results in a net upwards force, at least on most of the tongue. (@progress reckons that the back third is meant to pull down on the maxilla in order to rotate it upwards, I believe. forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth)

if you still haven't achieved an effortless/unconscious upwards tongue force + suction hold as of yet, something is wrong with your method or training or posture or perhaps what you're working with. it should certainly not be "extremely difficult to achieve and sustain". For me it requires a conscious effort to not have a suction hold going on. Even when I close my mouth, have my teeth together and avoid automatically swallowing, my tongue is pushing upwards against the palate on its own, even without the inevitable suction hold that is to come.

babies do this too

I hope I articulated that decently enough

cheers

Great post, krollic, very informative. I just noticed that the baby in the video actually puts the tip of his tongue onto the spot I suggested and not the one Mike advises. I got the spot from Reddit where multiple people claimed and agreed with each other that their ortho's recommended it to them for maximum forward growth.

Also putting your tongue there prevents you from sucking on the maxilla backward, only downward, since the midpoint of the tongue is where the suction happens and it only touches a fully horizontal palate, it can only pull downwards.(You can't suck with the front of the tongue).

This is something I will experiment with, simply sucking vertically only by keeping my tongue as far back as possible while passively pushing or even using those suction forces to propel the tip of the tongue and the sides around it into the diagonal palate.

It's not very visible on my pictures, but I have a about 2cm hole from the top of my incisors to my palate, which is a high arched vault except thanks to mewing without the narrowness. If I am able to pull my rear palate just 5mm down relative to my front teeth I will be extremely happy. If I am able to do about 15mm, man I can't imagine how much better my breathing will become and how my whole face will look like(zygos will probably go down, ears will finally become straight, a lot of facial soft tissue will decompress from the lengthening at the rear).

I am hoping to experiment with this type of force:

Note, the palate isn't anatomically accurate for normal people, but this is how my palate looks and feels, it's kind of [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up vaulted, especially since my hard-mewing in the beginning pushed my rear palate upwards it's only gotten worse(why I am critical of hard mewing and focusing on back of the tongue).

I hope the illustration is enough to point out approximately what the technique is, what do you think of it?

 

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Posted : 10/01/2021 6:01 am
krollic
Reputable Member

I can't position my tongue tip on the palatine rugae / front ridges like in your diagram without a lot of conscious effort and some level of discomfort.

When I first started mewing I could not keep my tongue at the incisive papilla / tip without it forcing itself into my upper front teeth substantially, unless I actively pulled my tongue position back. After perhaps a few years now, I comfortably default to having my tongue tip there with some sort of butterfly touch occurring with the front teeth (barely touching/not touching) and it doesn't require me to actively retract my tongue to fit. I assume this is now possible for me due to forward growth/upswing i.e more tongue space being available. For the record, I do not have any outwards teeth tipping.

Is it plausible that if we were all fully expanded/upswung that our tongues would default to being on the front ridges instead? Perhaps, but I do not know.

So, I'll argue for the default spot being at the incisive papilla like Mike suggests, instead. Firstly, I think the tongue plays an key role in acting as a retainer for the upper teeth, especially at the front. Our lips (with a proper seal) and cheeks prevent our teeth from tipping outwards and I believe that inversely, our tongue plays a critical part in stopping our teeth from tipping inwards. These sorts of balancing forces along with others such as chewing, keeping the teeth in contact, etc work together to ensure that all our teeth come out evenly spaced and upright. When we look at 99% of properly developed mammals today, they have their tongues in this position too. 

Secondly, having your tongue further back is obviously going to mean that you have less surface area contact with the hard palate, which means that the front isn't going to get any pressure/stimulation/wolffs law stuff. While the tip of the tongue is the weakest, the incisive papilla is furthest away from the jaw joint meaning that it's a key leveraging point, which I think means that it's important in achieving a forwards/upwards rotation of the maxilla. Also, if your tongue is further back then that would mean you're wasting a lot of the power of the stronger parts of your tongue. I'd rather have as much of it as I can going into the hard palate.

I've become more skeptical of hard mewing at the back, too. While I still do it and I think it's a great exercise for training tongue strength and elevating the hyoid, it does seem to me like this notion of pulling down on the back of the palate to encourage upswing has something to it. I'm going to continue hard mewing at the front and mid but will experiment with no longer forcefully raising the hyoid i.e root of tongue.

I think a big reason for hard mewers success (or at least their increased rate of change) is because it makes the tongues resting muscle tone i.e passive upward/forward forces that much more effortless and automatic, meaning they benefit from soft mewing at a minimum 24/7, something that paperpag is currently lacking, for whatever reason. I know that before I did tongue strengthening exercises such as with gum, this one I came up with here, or just general hard mewing, I could not achieve automatic palatal forces or suction holds with my tongue, because my tongue would simply fall off. It was like this for about a year and it was immensely frustrating. I had only been chewing gum all that time but after about two weeks of tongue strengthening exercises it became automatic and now I'm a big believer in hard mewing or other tongue strength exercises, at least for the sake of developing those resting positions and forces.

Side note: I think jaw chewing exercises are key too for the same reason; we want our lower jaw to be naturally resting as high as possible without our teeth overtly clenching because that means that our tongues will be able to be as close as possible to the palate. If you open your mouth slightly, do a suction hold and then increasingly open your mouth, you will observe how much harder it is to attach the tongue to the palate without it falling off, or even for the tongue to simply push against the roof of the mouth; this is because the root of the tongue is moving further away from the palate.

I also think that teeth contact between the jaws is important because the lower jaw supports the upper and plays a role in facial upswing or at the minimum, not allowing the upper to fall down.

additional theory: We also do not want our lower jaws to be resting too far down because when we create an intraoral vacuum after swallowing, any downwards movement of the jaw is going to create/increase the vacuum between the bottom of the tongue and the lower jaw, I believe this essentially results in our lower jaws pulling our tongues down and off the palate if they descend too much even just via vacuum alone. This is resolved I think, by improving resting tone of the masseterstemporals by chewing hard stuff. After intensely chewing gum for a long time now, my bite rests a lot closer than it used too (1cm gap -> butterfly touch)

cheers

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Posted : 10/01/2021 7:45 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member

@krollic

Idk, I always could put the tip of my tongue on the incisive papilla and hold it there, I got a lot of expansion that way, but way more forward growth from the other higher spot.

Also palates are of course different, Mike's suggestion to only use one spot on the palate doesn't take into account this different in palate shape between different people. For example as I said before or even showed my palate is reasonably high-vaulted(1-2cm highest point above incisor).

"Is it plausible that if we were all fully expanded/upswung that our tongues would default to being on the front ridges instead? Perhaps, but I do not know."

No, I argued the opposite actually, at least I hope I did. I argue that deficient people with arched palates should keep their tongue on their front ridge for maximum forward remodeling.

"When we look at 99% of properly developed mammals today, they have their tongues in this position too. "

This is something I tried to find out as well, do you have any sources on this? Either way, even if this is true and I believe it is, it doesn't take into account that people who haven't had proper tongue posture would develop palates shaped differently, which would perhaps require different spots.

In fact in the video that you posted the baby's tongue is quite far up, no? You can see the incisive papilla and the tongue is way above and behind it.

"Secondly, having your tongue further back is obviously going to mean that you have less surface area contact with the hard palate, which means that the front isn't going to get any pressure/stimulation/wolffs law stuff."

Well you're right about there being less surface area, however you're wrong that this will cause less force to be distributed on the hard palate.At the very least assuming the tongue force is constant the force on the hard palate will stay constant as well, it will only concentrate more.

But you should also consider that compressing the tongue backwards causes passive decompressing forces to push it harder forward and depending on the shape of your palate the upper front ridge may have the best leverage for forward remodeling of the lower maxilla.

"I've become more skeptical of hard mewing at the back, too. While I still do it and I think it's a great exercise for training tongue strength and elevating the hyoid, it does seem to me like this notion of pulling down on the back of the palate to encourage upswing has something to it. I'm going to continue hard mewing at the front and mid but will experiment with no longer forcefully raising the hyoid i.e root of tongue."

Yep and it's not theory only, there is actually a study showing strongest correlation between tongue posture at the front and bite classes while virtually no correlation between tongue posture at the back and bite classes. Basically people that had tongue contact at the front had more often normal classes, while people that had tongue contact at the back did not show any benefits to those who didn't.

"I think a big reason for hard mewers success (or at least their increased rate of change) is because it makes the tongues resting muscle tone i.e passive upward/forward forces that much more effortless and automatic, meaning they benefit from soft mewing at a minimum 24/7, something that paperpag is currently lacking, for whatever reason. I know that before I did tongue strengthening exercises such as with gum, this one I came up with here, or just general hard mewing, I could not achieve automatic palatal forces or suction holds with my tongue, because my tongue would simply fall off. It was like this for about a year and it was immensely frustrating. I had only been chewing gum all that time but after about two weeks of tongue strengthening exercises it became automatic and now I'm a big believer in hard mewing or other tongue strength exercises, at least for the sake of developing those resting positions and forces."

I don't think you have the data to extrapolate that conclusion, how many people actually soft mew here? Most are hard mewers and you see success varying. This means that some hard mewers have good results, while most have barely any at all. So this calls into doubt your notion that hard mewers somehow enjoy more success than soft mewers as there is simply not enough data to claim so.

The thing is the tongue uses the mandible to propel itself forward and the mandible uses the maxilla to proper itself forward(directly and indirectly, look at the pterygoids). So per definition any kind of hard forces produced by the tongue cannot push the maxilla forward independently, at the very best it might rotate it, however if you actually look at the anatomy the pterygoids connect more in the middle of the maxilla, thus it is doubtful that the pterygoids and the tongue have the leverage to rotate the maxilla CCW.

On the other hand you have the muscle that raises the back of the tongue which is connected to the skull indirectly through the soft palate. The problem with this muscle when considering CCW rotation is that it will always raise the back of the palate higher than the front palate, thus actually causing CW rotation(I believe I experienced this effect during hard mewing).

I am skeptical of hard mewing because except for expansion and the breathing improvement following that expansion I never achieved any aesthetic benefits from it. In fact it seemed like my nose looked worse when hard mewing and face looked more bloated(rear jaw moving upwards following the rear palate). While soft mewing has supposedly according to my subjective interpretation and objective photo comparison: pushed my gonion forward, remodeled my lower maxilla and even straightened my nose.

"Side note: I think jaw chewing exercises are key too for the same reason; we want our lower jaw to be naturally resting as high as possible without our teeth overtly clenching because that means that our tongues will be able to be as close as possible to the palate. If you open your mouth slightly, do a suction hold and then increasingly open your mouth, you will observe how much harder it is to attach the tongue to the palate without it falling off, or even for the tongue to simply push against the roof of the mouth; this is because the root of the tongue is moving further away from the palate."

Well do many people have issues holding their teeth reasonably close together? I keep mine a few mm apart and it has always been this way. Either way you have to fully consider all benefits/drawbacks of chewing, as I said before I strongly think there are a lot of people that will benefit from chewing, but just as many that will get only negative effects from it.

I see many people here with long faces that can use chewing, but I see even more people with short faces that should absolutely not chew. In fact their short faces probably signals that they have some form of jaw tension or bruxism.

"I also think that teeth contact between the jaws is important because the lower jaw supports the upper and plays a role in facial upswing or at the minimum, not allowing the upper to fall down."

This is just plain wrong and doesn't make any logical sense. The gums are more malleable than the teeth, any kind of force on the teeth will cause them to get pushed in the gums earlier than it will cause any bone change. Look at my rear teeth, they are very pushed in, it wasn't always this way, this is what intense chewing on the molars achieves, the molars get pushed in upwards.

But if you have read this thread I am sure you should have read that OP tried to jut his lower teeth against his upper teeth and has seen no effects.

"additional theory: We also do not want our lower jaws to be resting too far down because when we create an intraoral vacuum after swallowing, any downwards movement of the jaw is going to create/increase the vacuum between the bottom of the tongue and the lower jaw, I believe this essentially results in our lower jaws pulling our tongues down and off the palate if they descend too much even just via vacuum alone. This is resolved I think, by improving resting tone of the masseterstemporals by chewing hard stuff. After intensely chewing gum for a long time now, my bite rests a lot closer than it used too (1cm gap -> butterfly touch)"

How about the scenario in the drawing I made where the tongue uses suction to hold the lower jaw on the back palate? This could achieve CCW rotation in theory. But in practice it's hard to isolate the suction of the back palate and the suction on the front palate, this is why I am considering the tongue being more backward as a potential fix to this problem, as when the tongue is more backward the suction spot moves backward as well.

 

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Posted : 10/01/2021 5:30 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member

@krollic

Actually I just came upon an interesting idea: Suppose you are able to pull your palate down and straighten it out, this will make it longer, since occlusion hasn't moved, you will block your own airway.

So something like a vaulted pault is actually beneficial for breathing, it seems to more the symptom/result and less the problem. Same thing with a tilted palate.

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Posted : 11/01/2021 5:23 am