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How bad is my case and what kind of remodelling do I need?  

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PaperBag
Estimable Member

I had orthodontic treatment over a decade ago, with cervical headgear & elastics but no extractions. Current age is 26 and my IMW is 40-41mm. I heard about Orthotropics in late 2015 and have been feebly attempting mewing ever since. There may be small changes, as I think I used to be uglier in older photos, but major progress is hard to come by with a vaulted palate/torus. I can post old photos if anyone's interested, the angles and such aren't the same as I only took them to study myself in the moment.

I've tried focusing on the posterior tongue but can barely feel it no matter what and end up concentrating on the tip/middle in spite of not knowing if that's where I need to place pressure. Other things I've done include hard chewing, Rolfing, osteopathy, and thumb pulling. Working on body posture is something I highly recommend, since results are noticeable and fairly quick. The Gokhale Method postural chair is fantastic for this.

I bought the Crane from someone on here, but nobody I've inquired to even wanted to see it. All three osteopaths I went to "couldn't see" my weak profile and both orthodontists I saw were in full denial of any problems existing. The first orthodontist seemed legitimately angry and the second one was amused. He said I look like a model, which is enough of a disingenuous statement already without me also being 5'7". I've noticed a lot of professionals conflate talking about having a poorly grown face with having a severe lack of self esteem. They always say "don't talk about yourself like that" even when phrasing things clinically, as if they need to reassure you despite going to them on your own accord.

After wondering if my face looked worse than it actually is due to being underweight, I recently gained over 10 pounds in a short time, bringing me up to a downright imposing 125 pounds. 😆
I think the weight gain helped aesthetically, but something in the protein powder I used made a bunch of hair on both sides of my head fall out or break, which is very evident in the photos. I know how stupid it looks, but I can't get it fixed at the moment.

How bad do you think my CFD is and what kind of growth should I be trying to get? The things that stand out the most to me are my weak chin and poor eye support, in addition to my right side being very underdeveloped. My nose/nostrils also looks birdlike, but I don't think about it much. I thought I needed forward growth for a long time and then was obsessed about rotation, but I don't really understand what the latter would look like in my case. My lower face has poor fat distribution, as it felt chubby even when I weighed 110 pounds. (not enough bone for skin to be pulled taut) This makes me think I need more facial height, which is a concept @EddieMoney has discussed at length before.

The colors/lighting on the webcam I used are terrible after trying for an hour, no idea why everything looks so grainy. I took more photos with a different setting in case it makes my profile more visible. Anyway, I've been posting on here and other sites for years without ever getting my own face analyzed so I'm interested in what everyone has to say. Thanks for reading.

Quote
Posted : 14/05/2020 11:54 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

Is your bite class 2 or 1? I can agree with the need for some lengthening. Also, how do you chew? My recent experience has made me believe chewing can be beneficial if done correctly

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 3:48 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney The last orthodontist I saw told me it was class 1, though I used to have a 12mm overjet and a small amount of it remains. The result looks better than having the incisors totally retroclined, IMO. I frequently try chewing with incisors and other nearby teeth for temporalis engagement but it's extremely time consuming. An issue I've mentioned before and seem to be alone in is having difficulty swallowing food due to a high palate. Along with having a small mouth, it makes eating take forever, nevermind when purposely chewing with certain teeth. How exactly are you chewing? When using gum or chew toys (the sensory ones for autistics, there was a thread about it here) in the past, I only used my molars and it caused my TMJ to make a noise like a gunshot in my skull, which resulted in $500 of osteopathic treatments. I was told the joint would have eventually done that anyway, as it had no range of motion at all.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 4:26 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

I can see how your orthodontists viewed your facial aesthetics as model-like. You have hollow cheeks, good cheekbones, hooded eyes and  a straight nose. Your front profile is actually good for someone with CFD, and the only improvement you really need is probably your mandible coming forward through something like a CCW maxilla rotation.

How did you look before mewing? I wouldn't mind different angles,  I'm asking to just get a general idea.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 5:02 am
Loliboly and PaperBag liked
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@eddiemoney The last orthodontist I saw told me it was class 1, though I used to have a 12mm overjet and a small amount of it remains. The result looks better than having the incisors totally retroclined, IMO. I frequently try chewing with incisors and other nearby teeth for temporalis engagement but it's extremely time consuming. An issue I've mentioned before and seem to be alone in is having difficulty swallowing food due to a high palate. Along with having a small mouth, it makes eating take forever, nevermind when purposely chewing with certain teeth. How exactly are you chewing? When using gum or chew toys (the sensory ones for autistics, there was a thread about it here) in the past, I only used my molars and it caused my TMJ to make a noise like a gunshot in my skull, which resulted in $500 of osteopathic treatments. I was told the joint would have eventually done that anyway, as it had no range of motion at all.

Rotational chewing. Going from right molars to right premolars to right canines, incisors, then left incisors, canines, premolars, molars. Alternate protraction, retraction, sideways grinding, up and down motions. I pretty much chew with as many varied forces as possible. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 2:40 pm
PaperBag liked
Progress
Member Moderator

A pleasure to get acquainted with your face @paperbag. I agree with @azrael that your maxilla is quite decent, and that it's mostly the lower third that has been set back. I can't help but think how in cases like these it may not be the maxillary positioning that is the problem as much as the lack of alveolar development in both jaws. Your lower teeth would essentially be too forward in the jaw bone, and additionally trapped behind an underdeveloped upper alveolar. This is why I suspect that the lower alveolar bone is meant to develop backward, while the upper alveolar is meant to develop forward. Such development would thus allow the mandible to slide forward. If true, likely the proper way to induce this kind of change would be to keep the teeth in contact in a specific way. Rather than only keeping the molars together, the mandible would come to rest against the premolars and canines and incisors too, and so enable the alveolar processes of each jaw to push each other to opposite directions.

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Posted : 15/05/2020 5:21 pm
eternally12, Loliboly, EddieMoney and 1 people liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@azrael Thanks for the self esteem boost, it means a lot coming from people who know their stuff.
Here's nearly every photo I've taken since 2015, just in case quantity can overcome all the differences in camera/lighting/angle, etc..

Mid-2015, pre-mewing. A few months before hearing of Orthotropics, I was convinced my face didn't grow properly but couldn't explain why/how. Terrible posture and I was still wearing a retainer many nights a week.

Late 2016. My right side profile makes me look toothless when standing properly, eyes look kind of insane from what I assume is lack of support/being underweight. Around this time is when I noticed that my right eyelid got lazy and keeps folding over.

Spring 2017, the first photo is one of the only times I ever thought I looked alright, probably due to my forehead being covered. (minimizing the contrast between it and my small lower third) Interestingly, the next photo was only a day apart and my eyes look insane again. Last two are comparing extreme chin tuck vs. people who stick their head all the way out and act like that's their jawline. (like I did in 2015) Angle sucks, though.

Late 2017, huge chin tuck. I weighed 130 pounds here, which was very fleeting because I took medication that had weight gain as a side effect.

Mid-2018. What on earth is with the serial killer eyes? I never see anyone else with CFD look this freakin' possessed. Back to around 115 pounds here.

I stopped taking photos shortly after this because I always hated looking at my face afterwards and figured there was no point in documenting my progress pics when I didn't think there was anything happening.

I've always claimed to have never had any results with mewing, but if you think you can see anything different, that would be encouraging. I'm pretty sure gaining a little weight is responsible for most of any "changes", although it's only 10-15 pounds.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 6:50 pm
Azrael liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney That definitely sounds worth a try, it sounds like a full scale workout for the mouth. I can already tell that it's not something I've ever done before, as all my chewing efforts/habits have always been very one dimensional and totally ignore all my front teeth.

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Posted : 15/05/2020 6:57 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@progress Thanks for the feedback, Progress. I'm surprised to see you say my maxilla isn't the problem, as it's been my main concern for years and I assumed that only having the mandible set back was a viewpoint of conventional orthodontics. I suppose it makes sense, though, since my profile looks alright if the bottom is covered up.
Are you saying that my bottom teeth are likely proclined too much and trapped behind my upper teeth because they're sitting in an undergrown structure?

I happened to take this photo before reading your post. Assuming it's not something that can only be seen through xrays, am I showing enough to give credence (or not) to your theory? I always thought my bite looked weird after braces, it's like my arch is fairly wide but everything is shoved so far back in my mouth to the point where sliding my mandible forward doesn't improve my profile. Smiling with my top teeth looks decent but showing all of my teeth at once illustrates how dished in they are. My mew line is around 44-45mm, if measured properly. Just focusing on touching bottom incisors and nearby teeth to top ones (if that's what you're saying) feels like a new sensation although I admit to not understanding how that gives opposing force. I used to touch molars but have been mewing with teeth apart for probably over a year, which probably wasn't the way to go for my particular case.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 7:10 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member

I can see a huge improvement in your nasolabial angle. It clearly shows some kind of sagittal (is that the proper term?) growth of the maxilla. 

Your before pics show a good foundation. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 9:55 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eddiemoney Thanks a lot, Eddie. Yes, sagittal is the correct term.

I showed my 2007/2010 before and after braces photos to the orthodontist (the one who said I have model features) because I was trying to explain how I thought I looked worse after treatment, but still better back then compared to now. Besides the years of retainer usage, I thought weighing 165 pounds in 2010 was part of the reason why, since I was hung up on facial fat affecting appearance for a while. The doctor said my overly upturned nose had "come down" or something to that effect, where the nasal area looked better now. That seems to line up with what you said about the nasolabial angle reducing, and may also limit weight gain being the cause. He said "you must have had late growth come in at age 18" and I said I've been purposely trying to change my face since 22. At least he told me to keep it up instead of ramping up the denial. Thanks for verifying the change, I wasn't sure if it was wise to believe someone who isn't too knowledgable of these things despite being a professional. If there's one poster here who borders on all-knowing, it'd probably be you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 12:23 am
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@eddiemoney Thanks a lot, Eddie. Yes, sagittal is the correct term.

I showed my 2007/2010 before and after braces photos to the orthodontist (the one who said I have model features) because I was trying to explain how I thought I looked worse after treatment, but still better back then compared to now. Besides the years of retainer usage, I thought weighing 165 pounds in 2010 was part of the reason why, since I was hung up on facial fat affecting appearance for a while. The doctor said my overly upturned nose had "come down" or something to that effect, where the nasal area looked better now. That seems to line up with what you said about the nasolabial angle reducing, and may also limit weight gain being the cause. He said "you must have had late growth come in at age 18" and I said I've been purposely trying to change my face since 22. At least he told me to keep it up instead of ramping up the denial. Thanks for verifying the change, I wasn't sure if it was wise to believe a professional who isn't too knowledgable of these things. If there's one poster here who borders on all-knowing, it'd probably be you.

Thanks for the kind words. I definitely don't think I know a ton. I feel like I am only riding on the coattails of more established members and people with better results, but I nonetheless appreciate the sentiment. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 12:33 am
PaperBag liked
eternally12
Active Member

I’m inclined to agree with Progress.

It seems like you have a similar problem to me, where orthodontics made my alveolar ridge more narrow to the point it was impossible to keep my tongue up there, whilst still maintaining a decent maxillary structure. My orthodontist also proclined my lower incisors forward and upper incisors backwards which has made uncomfortable edge to edge contact on my front teeth when I try to keep my lower jaw truly relaxed. And when I do try to push my lower jaw backwards to keep my teeth biting on the molars my lower jaw in my side profile diminishes. I have had TMJ problems unfortunately ever since orthodontic treatment. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 9:46 am
PaperBag liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@azrael Thanks for the self esteem boost, it means a lot coming from people who know their stuff.

Appreciate your kind words but I am still a newbie since I only started learning about all this 4 months ago. Plenty of stuff left to learn.

Posted by: @paperbag
Screen Shot 2020 05 15 at 3.06.14 PM

 

 

I think until your mandible comes forward, this hairdo looks better than what you currently have (just my opinion, btw). The model-like looks are strong in this pic.

 

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 10:55 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @zeus82

You have BDD. What are you doing on this forum when you look like that? If you're bothered that much by your looks just get a chin implant/genio/double jaw and call it a day. This is some mental illness. 

He looks okay, doesn't mean he can't improve. His looks are fine though, pretty good even, so him calling his case "bad" is indeed BDD.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 3:15 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @paperbag
 
Are you saying that my bottom teeth are likely proclined too much and trapped behind my upper teeth because they're sitting in an undergrown structure?

Proclination may most certainly play part too, though it was not the main mechanism I was trying to describe. Technically, the jawbone rather than the teeth are trapped behind the maxilla. Assuming that the lower alveolar ridge is meant to develop like I hypothesized earlier, it would mean that in an underdeveloped lower alveolar the chin-incisor distance is too short. i.e. the teeth sit too forward in the jawbone to allow the lower third to project optimally. Thus, when the lower teeth are rested against the upper teeth, the whole lower dental arch should begin to shift inwards within the mandible, effectively increasing the incisor-chin distance, which would then allow the jawbone to advance forward even if the position of the occlusion does not change in relation to the skull. 

I happened to take this photo before reading your post. Assuming it's not something that can only be seen through xrays, am I showing enough to give credence (or not) to your theory? I always thought my bite looked weird after braces, it's like my arch is fairly wide but everything is shoved so far back in my mouth to the point where sliding my mandible forward doesn't improve my profile. Smiling with my top teeth looks decent but showing all of my teeth at once illustrates how dished in they are. My mew line is around 44-45mm, if measured properly. Just focusing on touching bottom incisors and nearby teeth to top ones (if that's what you're saying) feels like a new sensation although

This would unfortunately be visible in xrays only, since the problem is more about the relationship between each dental arch and its respective jawbone, than the relationship between the teeth themselves.

I admit to not understanding how that gives opposing force. I used to touch molars but have been mewing with teeth apart for probably over a year, which probably wasn't the way to go for my particular case. [

I had been keeping my molars together too ever since John Mew mentioned it, but to be honest I could never quite figure out the mechanism through which molar contact was supposed to work. I get that it is supposed to upswing the jaws, but the direction of the force that is being created by molar contact doesn't seem right, especially if one already has an overbite or an antegonial notch.

By opposing force I mean that when the lower arch pushes the upper arch forward, so does the upper arch push the lower arch backward. Newton's third law and all that. Realistically, one arch is going to yield to the other, especially when we factor in lip seal, but the process should still impact both arches to certain extent. I imagine that the dental arches could also act as expanders for each other, the lower perhaps expanding the upper outwards, but especially the upper shortening and widening the lower. Something like this:

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 4:30 pm
PaperBag liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@eternally12 Yes, that must have something to do with it. I've never considered alveolar changes to be the reason jaws can't fit together, but it makes sense for orthodontists to try tilting bottom teeth forward to close the bite. I also had TMJ problems for years after treatment, the doctor even told me that constant jaw clicking was "normal". Perhaps your DNA appliance practitioner already did something about it, but I'd recommend osteopathic treatment if you have a lot of clicking/cracking or poor range of motion. My mandible couldn't move side to side or forward and was nearly locked in place. Just make sure to see a man for it, there's a ridiculous amount of force required.

@zeus82 I guess it's an honor to be lumped in with someone as attractive as Astro Sky in terms of BDD accusations. Kidding aside, the sentiment that I'm so "not ugly" I have to be mentally ill is incredibly relieving, so thank you.

@Azrael Thanks, man. I'll probably get it cut like that once barbers and hairstylists are allowed to reopen. You, EddieMoney, auxiliary, and many other users on this site are very knowledgable, and even if you think you aren't and it's just regurgitation, being able to articulate your thoughts is a skill in itself when this topic is so complex.

@auxiliarus I appreciate it, especially when knowing you're a very skeptical person who frequently casts doubt. As far as having BDD is concerned, here's my reasoning. We have different face shapes anyway, but I have a twin who has better developed bone structure than mine. I was the only one to have braces, and when treatment ended and I felt I looked worse than before in addition to new problems developing, it's easy to get paranoid that my face was badly damaged. After discovering Orthotropics and blogs like claimingpower, this idea was validated. Since appearances are such a sensitive topic, it's hard to bring it up in conversation at all, never mind getting a real answer from anyone you know personally. Obviously, this is why "my Mom says I'm handsome" is a well-known joke. If there's no specialty provider like DNA/Vivos in your area, you may consult traditional orthodontists and try to convince them of this face-focused stuff in desperate hopes they'll happen to "know a guy" from the field or supervise treatment of an expander or something. If they say there's nothing wrong with you, why would that stop your train of thought? Regular orthodontists are "the enemy", remember? It's simply par for the course that they'd stand in your way of righting the wrongs inflicted on you, right? And the search continues. CFD is unique in how insular it is. Nobody really knows about it, and it's not something people enjoy talking about, so it's going to be kept to yourself aside from forums like these as an outlet for discussion, and waging war about it in your own head all the time can't be healthy. What prolonged thinking my case was bad is seeing people like Jamo, Astro, helmutsrebl, etc.. who look like supermodels and comparing myself to them. Progress, Elwynn, and another guy (forget his name, he's late 20s with blond hair) are others who I thought had infinitely better development/changes than mine, so I didn't want to open myself up to what I assumed would be criticism on what seemed like a site filled with attractive people masquerading as below average. The feedback has been surprisingly very kind, it's a huge paradigm shift after years of constantly thinking of my face as unappealing. I think that makes a lot more sense than assuming countless people are poisoned from Lookism-type forums and think they are irredeemably ugly if they don't look like Francisco Lachowski or something.

There's definitely room for improvement, especially my mandible, but you all have helped me cool down about everything a great deal, so thanks again.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 4:30 pm
Oatmeal and Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @paperbag

@eternally12 Yes, that must have something to do with it. I've never considered alveolar changes to be the reason jaws can't fit together, but it makes sense for orthodontists to try tilting bottom teeth forward to close the bite. I also had TMJ problems for years after treatment, the doctor even told me that constant jaw clicking was "normal". Perhaps your DNA appliance practitioner already did something about it, but I'd recommend osteopathic treatment if you have a lot of clicking/cracking or poor range of motion. My mandible couldn't move side to side or forward and was nearly locked in place. Just make sure to see a man for it, there's a ridiculous amount of force required.

@zeus82 I guess it's an honor to be lumped in with someone as attractive as Astro Sky in terms of BDD accusations. Kidding aside, the sentiment that I'm so "not ugly" I have to be mentally ill is incredibly relieving, so thank you.

@Azrael Thanks, man. I'll probably get it cut like that once barbers and hairstylists are allowed to reopen. You, EddieMoney, auxiliary, and many other users on this site are very knowledgable, and even if you think you aren't and it's just regurgitation, being able to articulate your thoughts is a skill in itself when this topic is so complex.

@auxiliarus I appreciate it, especially when knowing you're a very skeptical person who frequently casts doubt. As far as having BDD is concerned, here's my reasoning. We have different face shapes anyway, but I have a twin who has better developed bone structure than mine. I was the only one to have braces, and when treatment ended and I felt I looked worse than before in addition to new problems developing, it's easy to get paranoid that my face was badly damaged. After discovering Orthotropics and blogs like claimingpower, this idea was validated. Since appearances are such a sensitive topic, it's hard to bring it up in conversation at all, never mind getting a real answer from anyone you know personally. Obviously, this is why "my Mom says I'm handsome" is a well-known joke. If there's no specialty provider like DNA/Vivos in your area, you may consult traditional orthodontists and try to convince them of this face-focused stuff in desperate hopes they'll happen to "know a guy" from the field or supervise treatment of an expander or something. If they say there's nothing wrong with you, why would that stop your train of thought? Regular orthodontists are "the enemy", remember? It's simply par for the course that they'd stand in your way of righting the wrongs inflicted on you, right? And the search continues. CFD is unique in how insular it is. Nobody really knows about it, and it's not something people enjoy talking about, so it's going to be kept to yourself aside from forums like these as an outlet for discussion, and waging war about it in your own head all the time can't be healthy. What prolonged thinking my case was bad is seeing people like Jamo, Astro, helmutsrebl, etc.. who look like supermodels and comparing myself to them. Progress, Elwynn, and another guy (forget his name, he's late 20s with blond hair) are others who I thought had infinitely better development/changes than mine, so I didn't want to open myself up to what I assumed would be criticism on what seemed like a site filled with attractive people masquerading as below average. The feedback has been surprisingly very kind, it's a huge paradigm shift after years of constantly thinking of my face as unappealing. I think that makes a lot more sense than assuming countless people are poisoned from Lookism-type forums and think they are irredeemably ugly if they don't look like Francisco Lachowski or something.

There's definitely room for improvement, especially my mandible, but you all have helped me cool down about everything a great deal, so thanks again.

No problem, BDD is normal when you see so many good-looking models, yet what they don't tell you is how much Photoshop/angle distortion/lighting/flexing/make-up/grooming goes into play. And not only those things, I bet models literally do something like cool their faces before taking pictures just to make their skin slightly tighter.

 

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Posted : 16/05/2020 8:28 pm
PaperBag liked
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@progress That's a great theory and certainly worth trying. I used to think the only possible solution was maxilla rotation, with the idea that the mandible always follows, but it doesn't hold much water if my mandible is already considerably behind and didn't move because it couldn't. Lip seal having an effect makes sense, though I wonder if anterior tongue pushing is a detriment or not. (assuming some of it would touch teeth) There may be a chance of putting too much pressure on one arch, unless it would always even out, like you said.

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Posted : 17/05/2020 6:35 am
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@Progress I've been going through your progress thread and you said this a year ago:
_
At the moment, it feels like the jutting and the tongue posture complement and stabilize each other (so to answer your question, yes I'm jutting most of the time). This dynamic should ensure that the pterygoids will, over time, develop as they are meant to. I was also in brief contact with another person who claimed that once he began jutting his jaw out due to insecurity, his whole mandible reshaped itself in positive way in just a couple of months. One thing I have noticed is that while jutting, the lower lip rests against the lower incisors, which has been causing a little soreness in the teeth. I suspect that this may tip the incisors inwards over time, increasing chin projection.
_

You've been doing this the whole time since then?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/05/2020 10:28 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @paperbag

@Progress I've been going through your progress thread and you said this a year ago:
_
At the moment, it feels like the jutting and the tongue posture complement and stabilize each other (so to answer your question, yes I'm jutting most of the time). This dynamic should ensure that the pterygoids will, over time, develop as they are meant to. I was also in brief contact with another person who claimed that once he began jutting his jaw out due to insecurity, his whole mandible reshaped itself in positive way in just a couple of months. One thing I have noticed is that while jutting, the lower lip rests against the lower incisors, which has been causing a little soreness in the teeth. I suspect that this may tip the incisors inwards over time, increasing chin projection.
_

You've been doing this the whole time since then?

Pretty soon after writing that I got distracted with other postural experiments. Consistency is not my strong suit. I often start wondering, hey what if I do this or combine it with that... then a certain sub-technique may feel like the answer for a while, until I realize that other aspects of the overall technique aren't complementing it. So postural anatomy has become this 3D puzzle where I am trying to figure out which actions complement or oppose each other and what their ultimate consequences are.

That being said, I have circled back to jutting my jaw, only instead of jutting it past the maxillary arch I am now jutting against it, trying to keep each tooth in contact with its counterpart.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/05/2020 10:20 am
PaperBag liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @paperbag

@Progress I've been going through your progress thread and you said this a year ago:
_
At the moment, it feels like the jutting and the tongue posture complement and stabilize each other (so to answer your question, yes I'm jutting most of the time). This dynamic should ensure that the pterygoids will, over time, develop as they are meant to. I was also in brief contact with another person who claimed that once he began jutting his jaw out due to insecurity, his whole mandible reshaped itself in positive way in just a couple of months. One thing I have noticed is that while jutting, the lower lip rests against the lower incisors, which has been causing a little soreness in the teeth. I suspect that this may tip the incisors inwards over time, increasing chin projection.
_

You've been doing this the whole time since then?

Pretty soon after writing that I got distracted with other postural experiments. Consistency is not my strong suit. I often start wondering, hey what if I do this or combine it with that... then a certain sub-technique may feel like the answer for a while, until I realize that other aspects of the overall technique aren't complementing it. So postural anatomy has become this 3D puzzle where I am trying to figure out which actions complement or oppose each other and what their ultimate consequences are.

That being said, I have circled back to jutting my jaw, only instead of jutting it past the maxillary arch I am now jutting against it, trying to keep each tooth in contact with its counterpart.

Won't this cause a tilt in front upper incisors? The same way a tongue thrust does.

 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 11:53 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus
 

Won't this cause a tilt in front upper incisors? The same way a tongue thrust does.

 

Wouldn't mind if it did, considering the slight retroclination I currently have. As I explained above, this experiment is resting on the assumption that the upper and lower teeth are either going to tilt or alveolarly develop to opposite directions, which should allow the mandible to advance and the deep bite to resolve. So far the lower teeth have experienced more soreness than the upper teeth. I think that lip seal may tilt the balance in favor of the upper teeth. 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 4:09 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

RE: BDD accusations... my take is - this work is hard and we all have to try and cope somehow. Success doesn't result from giving up, which is kind of what a BDD label seemingly implies in a certain context. It's good you talk to people about your feelings though @paperbag, I just kept mine bottled in and that took its toll on me.

I quickly read over this thread and there was mention of bringing the shoulders back/upper chest up, this is good advice I think. I like to roll one shoulder after the other like Gokhale suggests, and somehow that just works better than rolling them both back at the same time to activate the postural chain I believe works for me. Part of the chain is focus on the tip of the tongue with forward and upward force, and then naturally the back of the tongue exerts the opposite forces. Another part is the way @progress describes chin tuck. Then you get core engagement, and everything seems all set. I like the way I saw it described on the VoiceGym website: "like a cobra" (re: the posture of the tongue). The other thing is that osteopathy (at least a couple visits) can be very helpful for these cases. They can adjust the position of the hips and sphenoid bone which I found was helpful toward bringing the mandible forward (or does the neck move backward?), though I'm not sure exactly how it works. I just recall after pregnancy, my hips were messed up and my mandible was closer to my neck, but a lot of the posture work and the help of some osteopathy has since largely resolved the issue.

FYI, other than on this forum, helmutsrebl is pretty widely regarded as a fraud (by which I mean, he's suspected of touting his surgery results as mewing). His case was recently presented on the Orthotropics Facebook page, and every other person was doubting his results, suspecting certain surgeries and pointing out various evidences of photoshopping his images. Mike Mew is trying to get an interview with him, and as much as I appreciate the Mews work, I wouldn't be surprised if the Orthotropics premise was credited for helmutsrebl's result, with Mike all too eager to give him a platform to do so. And helmutsrebl is such an elitist he can't even be bothered to make a proper post here that goes in to detail about his routine eg: how does he bonesmash, thumbpull etc, or even post on this forum: he has employed someone else to do it half-heartedly for him. Is this the behaviour of someone who has the heart to help others? Also, the main thrust behind looking attractive is to help ensure successful mate acquisition and to improve your various functions/overall health. The acquisition of narcissistic supply from Instagram and incel/lookism forums doesn't necessarily lend toward these goals, as women don't tend to appreciate dandyism like some men do. At least my thinking about it is, why get a Patrick Bateman type of guy when you can get a salt of the earth man who is just as attractive (and more naturally so to boot) and able to love you properly? So I mean... don't let this guy's case get you down. It's so bogus on so many levels.

 

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 19/05/2020 4:44 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus
 

Won't this cause a tilt in front upper incisors? The same way a tongue thrust does.

 

Wouldn't mind if it did, considering the slight retroclination I currently have. As I explained above, this experiment is resting on the assumption that the upper and lower teeth are either going to tilt or alveolarly develop to opposite directions, which should allow the mandible to advance and the deep bite to resolve. So far the lower teeth have experienced more soreness than the upper teeth. I think that lip seal may tilt the balance in favor of the upper teeth. 

Isn't your over-bite caused by maxillary deficiency? What's your mew indicator line like?

She seemed to have an overbite which got fixed by change in maxilla position.

By the way, I accidentally found out that boron in rats apparently decreases metabolism of bone in the face? Especially in the alveolar bone.

Source : https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18361451/

I'd make a thread about it, but I'd be spamming tbh.

 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 5:23 pm
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Isn't your over-bite caused by maxillary deficiency? What's your mew indicator line like? 

Not sure. My mew indicator is at 50mm. Maxillary deficiency is a tricky concept to define, made more complicated by the fact that the lower portion of the maxilla is made of a different, more malleable kind of bone than the upper portion. Maxillary deficiency and deficiency of the alveolar bone could be two separate phenomenon. Since the maxilla grows downwards, would maxillary deficiency not translate to a toothless smile? I on the other hand have a slightly gummy one.

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Posted : 19/05/2020 5:37 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Isn't your over-bite caused by maxillary deficiency? What's your mew indicator line like? 

Not sure. My mew indicator is at 50mm. Maxillary deficiency is a tricky concept to define, made more complicated by the fact that the lower portion of the maxilla is made of a different, more malleable kind of bone than the upper portion. Maxillary deficiency and deficiency of the alveolar bone could be two separate phenomenon. Since the maxilla grows downwards, would maxillary deficiency not translate to a toothless smile? I on the other hand have a slightly gummy one.

Did you mew indicator change from mewing? And yes it is indeed a tricky concept, I also think most changes happen to lower maxilla.

Also do you do tongue chewing with hard gum against the front palate?

 

As for the toothless smile, it depends, I think eventually skin stretches out and adapts, I shortened my anterior face and have extra skin/fat now on my anterior side of my face, coincidence? Maybe, maybe not.

I believe the face to remodel faster than the rest of the body, which remodels at around 10%/year, also obviously with younger age there's also more remodeling. Man if I ever have kids, tongue chewing and hard diet will be mandatory, LOL.

 

 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 6:03 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@greensmoothies I'm not sure if it can be called talking about feelings when I never really get that far. It's more like having to try and formulate a way to describe my issues and the general concept of CFD in a few succinct bullet points with all emotion removed before the other person forms a scowl and lectures me about self esteem anyway. Like you said, the work is hard, so getting it hand-waved away is incredibly frustrating.

About bringing the shoulders and upper chest up, the last and only good osteopath I saw said he tells people to stand up straight by pretending they're aiming a laser straight from their chest. It works very well for sounding so basic. I haven't paid too much attention to the Gokhale exercises aside from glide-walking and the Rolfer I saw claimed that some of her techniques were incorrect. I'm inclined to take it with a grain of salt, but I did see her pick up bunches of leaves in the yard while perfectly hip hinged. And she was 60+ years old. The results I got from Rolfing didn't last as long as the osteopathic treatments, though I was repeatedly told to do yoga and I didn't want to. We seem to have had the same areas treated with osteopathy, but your results sound very impressive.

Helmutsrebl's results being surgical are quite possible for how insane they are, though I haven't seen any of these other sites that try to expose him. Mike Mew seems to waver between minimizing what adults can expect from oral posture and then claiming things like Kylie Jenner's botox injections and other procedures were natural results from mewing. It kind of makes sense for him to be excited for his work to be spreading that he'll take any platform he can get. Helmut posting here would be nice, though he did reply to countless Reddit posts a while ago, so it's not like he's completely unhelpful. If his results aren't surgical, maybe he thinks it's not worth his time to post on here when he already got what he wanted from the sea of information on Orthotropics and there are only so many ways to say the same pieces of advice. I thought his bone smashing and other techniques were only introduced at the end when the main changes already happened.

I can understand what you mean about dandyism if you're talking about models like Jordan Barrett being placed on pedestals when some of those models' looks don't fit into what people universally find attractive, but if someone like Ryan Gosling is the antithesis of this, it's a moot point when most of us look far, far worse than he does and both options are similarly out of reach.

Someone who looks like Patrick Bateman is still in the top percentage of appearance whether it's natural or not. My ideal look for years has been 2000's Johnny Depp, and he looks more like a regular guy than some of these models but his bone structure is absolutely ridiculous.

Semantics may be a problem when people who say they want to look like a model are taken literally; a lot of men with CFD just want to look attractive in general, but saying "model" is faster than naming someone in particular or describing features. (on a side note, it's also possible that becoming interested in modelling, haute couture, and such may just be a result of doing a 180 from people hating their appearance and then discovering a field where people get the same amount of fixation on appearance but in a positive way, it just becomes more alluring than being generally attractive)

Helmut looked fantastic in his before picture and I prefer his look then over his results, which are of course still great and impressive.

I was first aware of thinking I looked weird/unattractive since the age of 8, which was ~2 years after my facial development started going downhill, so just diluting it to being depressed over not looking like a 10/10 guy who may have had surgery is a vast oversimplification. I don't want to be lumped in with the extremity of Lookism, I've never posted there.

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Posted : 19/05/2020 8:16 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

@paperbag Re: broaching CFD with others, it's a tough subject and I haven't gotten anyone but my husband to listen, so he supports me breastfeeding my daughter who's an older toddler now, otherwise I do get questioned occasionally although that began from day 1 if you can believe it. So we can't even talk about it, and on top of that there are lots of barriers and unspoken social rules surrounding breastfeeding which is our best bet to prevent CFD. And people have weird ideas about it, too. I saw a funny comment from John Mew about "busy moms" with respect to the lack of breastfeeding, but I don't think it's that simple. There are many things going wrong all at once and it's leading to a lot of failure on this front, and it certainly isn't fair to play it off like moms are simply too busy. It can be so painful though, to talk about these things with people, for example a family member recently had a baby, and I taught them about how to prevent flat-head syndrome, the importance of keeping the nasal passages clear and closing the mouth if it opens when it's not supposed to. Even gave them a product called a Snot Sucker (along with some other baby things) for their baby shower to keep the nasal passages clear. Felt so bad when I was told my snot sucker gift was "soooo dumb". I see them later with baby, and he has his mouth open non-stop and flat-head syndrome (which is a type of skull deformity that generally begins in infancy, sometimes in utero). I ask about it gently, too embarrassed to even bring up the snot sucker, and they reply, oh, we remembered what you said, but the doctor told us it's all fine! So they do nothing even with access to knowledge and products that can help prevent these issues. Doctor told them it's fine absolves them of responsibility to prevent CFD. I think maybe a different approach is needed, I'll post about it in another thread.

I have developed complex feelings about discussing appearances. Previously, I approached the subject matter with an interest in learning. Finding myself in the odd situation of previously being good-looking, then lost it all in a car accident and became ugly, to now recently restoring myself back to good-looking (for my age) and the comments I get are just embarrassing and hurtful, even though the comments are intended to be kind and uplifting. I didn't mean to lump you with the lookism forum crowd, and I actually don't think they're too bad and have learnt a lot from those incel forums with respect to this work. And I have to say, what I'm experiencing, that they are right about the concept of lookism. I'm probably being too cynical about this but recent experiences are what the incel lexicon would call "black pilling". But I've come so far I can't fall in to despair like that. And I suspect that people just don't like to talk about CFD because there can be this element of despair about it.

Re: Helmut - I brought him up because I sensed that you were at least in the past troubled by comparing yourself. Comparing is natural and can be informative IMO, but sometimes it's unproductive and this was at least my experience with Helmut's case in particular. What got me to stop concerning myself over his case was seeing how some people on the Orthotropics Facebook page were pointing out the warping in his images (which is evidence of Photoshopping). Interesting how Mike must have seen those posts pointing to the photoshop evidence, yet he wants to interview Helmut anyway. What bothered me about his case? Seeing the side profile image where his chin projects so much, and it got me wondering how I could avoid that result, which then devolved in to more questioning of habits... as if we don't do enough of this during this work. In my last post I was harsh on Helmut, but I think something we also need to consider is some standards around here; coming here with photoshopped images is going to throw in to question what is possible with all this work, when that's already in question to begin with. This can lead to undue concern surrounding this work when it is so difficult to begin with.

Re: the invoking Patrick Bateman, what I was trying to convey was a comparison to a high-status, attractive yet heartless guy to what I called a salt of the earth man, or a man of little status but comparable attractiveness and with a pure heart. And the thing about dandyism, which I don't mean in a pejorative sense, but to mention how it's not relatable to women because we're more emotional-centred and so prioritize feelings such as feeling safe, not necessarily a particular aesthetic. Anyway for what it's worth, to my eyes you either began with a decent base or your work has developed one, and I think you can keep improving if you keep at it.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 4:38 am
PaperBag liked
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @greensmoothies

What got me to stop concerning myself over his case was seeing how some people on the Orthotropics Facebook page were pointing out the warping in his images (which is evidence of Photoshopping).

Mind posting the evidence of the supposed warping? I'd like to see them as well (I don't have Facebook).

Posted by: @greensmoothies

What bothered me about his case? Seeing the side profile image where his chin projects so much,

It wasn't just his chin or mandible, but several aspects of his face. Particularly the eye area:

The improvements to Canthal tilt and eye hooding is something I've regularly seen in hard mewing progress pics on Reddit.

 Edit: He got those Photshop accusations on Reddit as well and then the dude commented a link to a video of him and that shut everyone up.

Dude must be going through an insane amount of trouble to get implants, buccal fat removal, fillers, surgeries and then manipulating all his images to model-tier looks.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 4:56 am
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @greensmoothies

What got me to stop concerning myself over his case was seeing how some people on the Orthotropics Facebook page were pointing out the warping in his images (which is evidence of Photoshopping).

Mind posting the evidence of the supposed warping? I'd like to see them as well (I don't have Facebook).

Posted by: @greensmoothies

What bothered me about his case? Seeing the side profile image where his chin projects so much,

It wasn't just his chin or mandible, but several aspects of his face. Particularly the eye area:

The improvements to Canthal tilt and eye hooding is something I've regularly seen in hard mewing progress pics on Reddit.

 Edit: He got those Photshop accusations on Reddit as well and then the dude commented a link to a video of him and that shut everyone up.

Dude must be going through an insane amount of trouble to get implants, buccal fat removal, fillers, surgeries and then manipulating all his images to model-tier looks.

Dude, I'm not removing pictures from a FB page to place them here without permission and because you can't be bothered to sign up. The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/craniofacialactiongroup/permalink/2971009512975379/

In his video, his chin doesn't seem to project like the side-profile image.

I know you can get a lot of progress with hard mewing because I measured while I did that for 2 years.

Who knows what his motivations are. My read on it is a pathological need for admiration.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 12:41 pm
PaperBag
Estimable Member

@progress I think the alveolar theory is sound on its own, and perhaps accounts for why most people with great facial development don't have crazy projection but are compact and proportionate. Seeing others jut their mandible past their front teeth always makes me think they're going to dislocate their jaw, I've never been able to do that. Lately, I've tried to apply the tongue ballooning concept to getting more teeth to meet, (teeth ballooning) which sometimes feels like a placebo as opposed to actually performing a movement but it helps. This seems like a more productive thing to focus on now, versus tongue posture obsession that is largely fruitless. My front teeth haven't had contact like this, whether intentional or at rest, in a decade at the very least, so it makes sense that some kind of benefit has to come out of it.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 7:11 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @greensmoothies

What got me to stop concerning myself over his case was seeing how some people on the Orthotropics Facebook page were pointing out the warping in his images (which is evidence of Photoshopping).

Mind posting the evidence of the supposed warping? I'd like to see them as well (I don't have Facebook).

Posted by: @greensmoothies

What bothered me about his case? Seeing the side profile image where his chin projects so much,

It wasn't just his chin or mandible, but several aspects of his face. Particularly the eye area:

The improvements to Canthal tilt and eye hooding is something I've regularly seen in hard mewing progress pics on Reddit.

 Edit: He got those Photshop accusations on Reddit as well and then the dude commented a link to a video of him and that shut everyone up.

Dude must be going through an insane amount of trouble to get implants, buccal fat removal, fillers, surgeries and then manipulating all his images to model-tier looks.

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

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Posted : 21/05/2020 10:29 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

 

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Dude, I'm not removing pictures from a FB page to place them here without permission and because you can't be bothered to sign up. The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/craniofacialactiongroup/permalink/2971009512975379/

Tone down the condescension, you are the person who brought up the warped images in your reply, I just asked to see them (since the whole idea is nonsensical anyway). And I am not bothered to sign up because I deleted mine since Facebook is a privacy nightmare of the highest order. And what is it? Is it a group or a page? You keep mentioning "FB page" and your link takes me to a group.

Edit: Those pictures belong to helmutstrebl so I don't get why you are acting like it's property of this group? Since we are talking about permission, did this group (or the particular members) ask for helmut's permission when they "removed" it from his profiles and checked it for frauding? Funny how you mention permission for a few pics in one of the most privacy-compromised sites on the planet.

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Who knows what his motivations are. My read on it is a pathological need for admiration.

Wow. I'm not surprised why many people don't post their transformations since they could be labelled for "admiration-seekers" by people like you. Besides, that guy is barely posting his progress anywhere except for his own Insta. If he was looking for admiration, the best place to start would have been with a YouTube channel or in orthotropics communities like TGW, r/orthotropics and r/mewing. Dude seems to be minding his own business after succeeding in his journey and he still gets flamed for it. And for what, for not "helping others out"?

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Posted : 21/05/2020 3:00 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

Dude, you are not believing him, you've made that abundantly clear plenty of times. It's okay, you are entitled to your opinion. It would have been better if the said opinion was well-informed.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/05/2020 3:05 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

Dude, you are not believing him, you've made that abundantly clear plenty of times. It's okay, you are entitled to your opinion. It would have been better if the said opinion was well-informed.

 

I never said he made no progress, I just said his before-afters aren't well aligned as the angle is quite different of the cameras. Don't you think it's weird that in the after his eye is different shape and size, and his ear is also different shape? This suggests a significantly different camera angle or camera lens being used.

If he mewed there's a 99,9% chance he made progress, but I'm sorry I won't believe that he got those cheek-lines from mewing or losing body-fat. I just won't believe it, there's some kind of frauding going on.

It's only my own opinion though not a fact.

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Posted : 21/05/2020 3:08 pm
Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael

 

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Dude, I'm not removing pictures from a FB page to place them here without permission and because you can't be bothered to sign up. The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/craniofacialactiongroup/permalink/2971009512975379/

Tone down the condescension, you are the person who brought up the warped images in your reply, I just asked to see them (since the whole idea is nonsensical anyway). And I am not bothered to sign up because I deleted mine since Facebook is a privacy nightmare of the highest order. And what is it? Is it a group or a page? You keep mentioning "FB page" and your link takes me to a group.

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Who knows what his motivations are. My read on it is a pathological need for admiration.

Wow. I'm not surprised why many people don't post their transformations since they could be labelled for "admiration-seekers" by people like you. Besides, that guy is barely posting his progress anywhere except for his own Insta. If he was looking for admiration, the best place to start would have been with a YouTube channel or in orthotropics communities like TGW, r/orthotropics and r/mewing. Dude seems to be minding his own business after succeeding in his journey and he still gets flamed for it. And for what, for not "helping others out"?

To be honest in @greensmoothies 's defense, the guy did condescend on other people on the looksmax forum, I went through his posts, he got a lot of admiration.

 

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Posted : 21/05/2020 3:09 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

Dude, you are not believing him, you've made that abundantly clear plenty of times. It's okay, you are entitled to your opinion. It would have been better if the said opinion was well-informed.

 

I never said he made no progress, I just said his before-afters aren't well aligned as the angle is quite different of the cameras. Don't you think it's weird that in the after his eye is different shape and size, and his ear is also different shape? This suggests a significantly different camera angle or camera lens being used.

If he mewed there's a 99,9% chance he made progress, but I'm sorry I won't believe that he got those cheek-lines from mewing or losing body-fat. I just won't believe it, there's some kind of frauding going on.

It's only my own opinion though not a fact.

Thank you. I just wish this gawdd*mn dude dropped in here every now and then to answer and clarify everyone's doubts.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/05/2020 3:19 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Lol, not this again. The eyebrow looks different because the camera angle is different, you even even slightly see his other eyebrow in the after picture, but not the before picture. Funny how the length of his eye is longer is the after picture, guess his changes also changed his eyeball, lol?

He doesn't need all those surgeries, only fillers and low body-fat. He already had a good base.

 

Dude, you are not believing him, you've made that abundantly clear plenty of times. It's okay, you are entitled to your opinion. It would have been better if the said opinion was well-informed.

 

I never said he made no progress, I just said his before-afters aren't well aligned as the angle is quite different of the cameras. Don't you think it's weird that in the after his eye is different shape and size, and his ear is also different shape? This suggests a significantly different camera angle or camera lens being used.

If he mewed there's a 99,9% chance he made progress, but I'm sorry I won't believe that he got those cheek-lines from mewing or losing body-fat. I just won't believe it, there's some kind of frauding going on.

It's only my own opinion though not a fact.

Thank you. I just wish this gawdd*mn dude dropped in here every now and then to answer and clarify everyone's doubts.

Everything I say on the forum is an opinion, not a fact. And I'd wish he came to this forum to prove our doubts wrong as well.

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Posted : 21/05/2020 3:33 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael

 

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Dude, I'm not removing pictures from a FB page to place them here without permission and because you can't be bothered to sign up. The thread is here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/craniofacialactiongroup/permalink/2971009512975379/

Tone down the condescension, you are the person who brought up the warped images in your reply, I just asked to see them (since the whole idea is nonsensical anyway). And I am not bothered to sign up because I deleted mine since Facebook is a privacy nightmare of the highest order. And what is it? Is it a group or a page? You keep mentioning "FB page" and your link takes me to a group.

Edit: Those pictures belong to helmutstrebl so I don't get why you are acting like it's property of this group? Since we are talking about permission, did this group (or the particular members) ask for helmut's permission when they "removed" it from his profiles and checked it for frauding? Funny how you mention permission for a few pics in one of the most privacy-compromised sites on the planet.

Posted by: @greensmoothies

Who knows what his motivations are. My read on it is a pathological need for admiration.

Wow. I'm not surprised why many people don't post their transformations since they could be labelled for "admiration-seekers" by people like you. Besides, that guy is barely posting his progress anywhere except for his own Insta. If he was looking for admiration, the best place to start would have been with a YouTube channel or in orthotropics communities like TGW, r/orthotropics and r/mewing. Dude seems to be minding his own business after succeeding in his journey and he still gets flamed for it. And for what, for not "helping others out"?

Find someone else who will do this labour of taking the images and posting them here, then. I don't want any part of it. That's my boundary and I have my reasons, now back off it already. Doesn't really matter if it's a page or a group.

That was simply my read on the situation. If I have brought harm to Helmet by causing hurt feelings, I will provide remedy so he's brought up to repair, and then he can also bring the details about his routine at the same time :-).

But nevermind the feelings of the original poster of this thread who's thread got overtaken by discussing this Helmet guy. Because I feel bad and partly responsible for that (and all I was trying to say was, hey, don't worry about it because his pics are fake). So please go now and take this subject to where it belongs if you feel it must be discussed.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 21/05/2020 4:31 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @greensmoothies

Find someone else who will do this labour of taking the images and posting them here, then. I don't want any part of it. That's my boundary and I have my reasons, now back off it already. Doesn't really matter if it's a page or a group.

Doesn't make sense for me to ask someone else for what you are talking about but whatever, I guess. However, next time you try to discredit someone, make sure if you are actually willing to show compelling evidence for it or it's for the best to not talk about it especially since you are questioning his progress.

Posted by: @greensmoothies

That was simply my read on the situation. If I have brought harm to Helmet by causing hurt feelings, I will provide remedy so he's brought up to repair, and then he can also bring the details about his routine at the same time :-).

I don't know where you get this idea or why you are feeling so entitled but no one has to give details about their routines. If they are doing it on their own accord, it's great. If not, it's unfortunate but it doesn't automatically mean they are "fake" or "frauds". Not sure about these supposed "warped" photos but you certainly seem to have some really warped ideas when it comes to people progressing with mewing and sharing it.

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Posted : 22/05/2020 3:31 am