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Progress of Elwynn  

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Elwynn
Estimable Member

I was initially going to make a post sharing pictures of what I believed was legitimate progress, but after taking more accurate photos, I have realized this was most likely due to camera distortion. Here's a GIF of what I believed was progress:

...and here's a GIF of where this "progress" is negligible-to-nonexistent:

Both sets of photos are exactly 6 months apart, and just to be clear, the pictures of me with longer hair are supposed to be the "afters." In case anyone's wondering, I am 23.

This is very disheartening, since I have believed that I've been making aesthetic progress over the past several months. This belief was further reinforced by observing more-prominent cheekbones and deeper-set eyes in the mirror. I am questioning now whether this was confirmation bias on my part, or the result of muscular / soft-tissue improvements that are not easily recognizable in the photos.

So what's up? Well, as another user of this forum notes, the available conclusions are that 1) mewing is ineffective at improving craniofacial dystrophy (CFD) in adults, 2) it takes a very long time for changes to become visible, or 3) there is something wrong with my technique.

To my mind, #3 is very likely, since:

  • I cannot put my tongue against the soft palate while maintaining the ability to breathe. I can raise my tongue to my second molars (my third molars / wisdom teeth have been removed), but that's as far as it'll go. If I try to go further, I either choke, or require so much effort doing so that I can't maintain it.
  • I have woken up with an open mouth numerous times (life-long habit), which leads me to believe that I probably don't practice good oral posture while sleeping at all (or only occasionally).
  • As far as I can tell, aside from teeth-tipping, my IMW has not expanded. If I were mewing correctly, it would be reasonable to assume that I would have achieved some expansion. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's very likely that I have been focusing too much on pushing upwards with my tongue, without pressing laterally against my molars.
    • On a side note, my IMW is fairly good for someone with CFD: about 40-42mm (depending on the tipping of my molars). Despite this, I have teeth crowding, forward-tipping of the incisors, and feel a lot of tightness when attempting to fit my tongue between my teeth. I also have a vaulted palate. Perhaps under proper environmental conditions, my IMW was meant to be wider than average.
  • I haven't practiced a tongue suction-hold or proper lip seal until about two weeks ago.
  • I sometimes let my tongue and jaw slack when reading or otherwise concentrating on something.
  • I only recently started feeling sensations in my cheeks and other regions of the skull. This came after I began practicing a better suction hold.
  • I do not practice hard chewing (I used mastic gum before, but it became too expensive).

I would be grateful for any sort of feedback, really, but I would be foremost interested in any personal experience or advice that could help me address the points above. I'm also curious if anyone here has initially struggled to achieve progress, but eventually achieved progress upon improving their technique. I have a suspicion that many of those who get into mewing only perform a fraction of what constitutes a good oral posture, and that this in part accounts for the limited evidence of mewing improving CFD.

My next step is to get a palate expander (I have already purchased one, but I have yet to make and send in a teeth mold). I suspect that it may be my vaulted palate that is causing a "bottleneck" in achieving visible progress. In the meantime, I will work to improve my oral posture further.

EDIT: I would disregard the difference in the lip area, since I was most likely curling my lips upward a bit in the first photo.

24 years old

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Posted : 12/10/2019 2:17 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

The lip seal and suction hold is really important imo, and It should feel somewhat natural, with your tongue position you should be able to open and close your mouth and have your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth, you feel it. A lot of this is going by feel, try to organise your mouth into something that doesnt need to be forced, allow your whole palate to be covered and let it touch your teeth if it wants to, afterall if you dont have enough space then obviously your tongue will want to push the teeth out the way, and I believe the palate will follow. On being choked, I have a similar problem, when I push my head back it sounds like a im snoring, but more space is opened up when I pull my adams apple down, like yawning.

Just remember that everybody is different, and imagining your tongue as a sorta mold for your palate can give you a pretty good idea of where you'll be if you reach 'peak' development. some people have thin long tongues, others have big fatties. Also remember that this is 6 months of somewhat correct posture out of your whole life, thats a fraction, man.

Personally I think you look good to begin with, so you can only ascend further, longer hair suits you too.

your lips area is showing noticeable changes, and your jaw, and chin, Also some stuff going on around the top of your nose. and as you explain you probably havent had the correct posture for 6 months, yet there's still a difference. Stay motivated, you're doin well.

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Posted : 13/10/2019 6:36 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@maxiller

Thank you for your words of encouragement, and for your advice. I will work to be more cognisant of my oral posture, and improve upon the things that I still can't do very well. I will stick to my method of taking pictures, and will try to post an update in the future, should I notice any changes.

...your tongue position you should be able to open and close your mouth and have your tongue stick to the roof of your mouth, you feel it.

At the moment, my tongue covers about 70% of the palatal area that I believe it should be covering. It sticks to the roof of my mouth through a combination of suction and pushing. It does not yet feel natural, but definitely feels more comfortable than it used to. After all, I didn't use suction at all until recently. When I open my mouth however, I lose the suction hold and the mid section of my tongue falls down. Do you think that this should not be the case in a person with correct oral posture? On a related note, do you think that when speaking, a person's whole tongue should drop down, or should only the front / mid region be removed from the palate, while the back portion stays put?

Also remember that this is 6 months of somewhat correct posture out of your whole life, thats a fraction, man.

Good point. I actually started practicing a better oral posture a little over a year ago. Since my earliest photos go back to only 6 months ago, I do not have any visual records of any earlier progress that I might have achieved, but since when starting out, holding up just the front of my tongue felt awkward, I at the very least must have made some progress in terms of tongue strength, posture technique, and possibly soft-tissue.

By the way, I recall you mentioning in the other thread that you have seen only a few pictures suggesting actual aesthetic progress. Do you remember which pictures you were talking about?

Thanks again.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/10/2019 7:24 pm
thebeetle
Active Member

Outstanding photos and post. This ought to be the standard on the forum.

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Posted : 14/10/2019 10:16 am
printfactory
Eminent Member

Can´t offer much advice but I have to say those before/after photos are very well done. I recommend to take up chewing again (you can use a piece of mastic gum multiple times, put it in a plastic bag and wash it before you use it again or in a glass of water and put it in the fridge).

 
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Posted : 14/10/2019 1:13 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@thebeetle

Thank you.

I explained this in another thread, but just for reference, my method of taking pictures is as follows:

I place a camera on a shelf, which has pencil markings for where the device should be set. This ensures that I always put the camera in the same exact spot. After that, I take several steps back and align myself with tape markings on the floor, which ensure that I always stand in the same spot. I then adopt a familiar posture (it's important to remember it), stare at the same spot outside my window (laundry pole) and allow the timer to take a photo. I usually take several pictures at a time, open them in Photoshop, select the picture that matches the original most accurately (the difference is usually incredibly small), and align them at the ear. Drawing guidance points over the original photo helps with this process.

One aspect that I haven't gotten right yet is lighting. This is because I have taken the first picture in natural light, and since this changes throughout the day and season, and depends on the weather, it's difficult to copy. Ideally, the original photo should have been taken under high-quality artificial light that remains the same. I didn't do this because my camera takes blurry photos under my current dim ceiling light. I'll see what I can do to minimize the difference in lighting for future pictures.

There's also the fact that my camera is of somewhat low quality. However, should any substantial changes occur, I assume that they would be recognizable in the pictures despite not being in HD. So, I'm not worried about camera quality at the present moment, though maybe I'll look into getting a better one in the future. We'll see.

Originally, I wasn't as obsessive about accuracy of the photos, but that's because I was underestimating the effect that a minor change in angle can have. I found that in the case of profile pictures, a discrepancy of just 2 pixels at the ear, can translate into something like 5 pixels of difference at the front of the face. I think that's the biggest takeaway.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/10/2019 1:32 pm
Kyte liked
Daltira
Active Member

Forwards growth is achieved by the teeth pressing down against one another while awake AND asleep. It pushes the maxilla up, the tongue does not do this which is the most common belief. Its actually the teeth. And no, don’t listen to anyone who thinks that damages teeth. It doesn’t. Tape your mouth shut at night, make sure your teeth are pressing against one another at all times, and try chin tucking... open mouth posture at night will ruin pretty much everything. Even wrap a headband around your head to make sure those teeth are in contact at night if you can’t sleep in chin tuck posture on your back which does this naturally. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/10/2019 3:58 am
max iller
Eminent Member

@elwynn

Posted by: @elwynn

When I open my mouth however, I lose the suction hold and the mid section of my tongue falls down. Do you think that this should not be the case in a person with correct oral posture?

I can open and close my mouth maintaining my tongue on the roof of my mouth. After my mouth/tongue is finished talking/eating/whatever, I put my tongue up to the palate, and usually there will be some air bubbles right around the mid section, push them out, usually by like 'swallowing' them, but the air just rises up out my nose anyway. After doing this I am in my neutral tongue position, and can relax without anything falling down. 
Needless to say it's difficult to explain, but if you're doing it right, when you open your mouth you'll feel an added suction.

Posted by: @elwynn

do you think that when speaking, a person's whole tongue should drop down, or should only the front / mid region be removed from the palate, while the back portion stays put?

I speak normally, my tongue drops down but that's anatomically required so that air can pass out my mouth. If the back portion stays put, air will only come out my nose. It can be difficult to speak fluently when your tongue is too big for your palate though, when I'm trying to pronounce "L" for Lingerie I usually have an asymmetry where air only passes out one side of my mouth, this is part of the reason I personally want to expand my palate, I believe speech will improve a lot once your tongue has a good surface for pronunciation. As well as resonating nicely.
Don't worry too much about speaking, there's only one or two ways to make sounds, let your tongue drop when you talk i reckon 🙂

Posted by: @elwynn

you have seen only a few pictures suggesting actual aesthetic progress. Do you remember which pictures you were talking about?

Progress has some very interesting results, I would recommend this one above all, Look up "Progress of Progress" in adult case discussion.
Jamo too but, yaknow, he dogged the forum way back, even deleted 'progress' pictures.
Helmutstrebl I think is his name, people accused him of getting chin implants, lol. 

John/Mike mews own lectures show progress, but I prefer John, he has an inkling of humour

Vancouver/November 2016
"How best to achieve forward facial growth by prof. John Mew"
"Effect of extra-oral anchorage on craniofacial development by Dr. Mike Mew"

I found these fascinating and helpful in my understanding and intuition for how the jaws function, as well as showing examples of success stories with patients.

If anyone else knows of good results please let us know

Hope I have helped you elwynn 🙂
Sorry for taking this long to reply

 

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 18/10/2019 6:59 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@maxiller

Thank you for your explanation.

I can open and close my mouth maintaining my tongue on the roof of my mouth. After my mouth/tongue is finished talking/eating/whatever, I put my tongue up to the palate, and usually there will be some air bubbles right around the mid section, push them out, usually by like 'swallowing' them, but the air just rises up out my nose anyway. After doing this I am in my neutral tongue position, and can relax without anything falling down. 
Needless to say it's difficult to explain, but if you're doing it right, when you open your mouth you'll feel an added suction.

That's very interesting. I also feel a sort of "air bubble" around the mid-section of my palate as I raise my tongue. However, unlike you, when I swallow this pocket of air, my tongue rises only to cover the hard palate (at worst), or the hard palate and a little bit of the soft palate (at best). The throat is left out of my equation; I feel no suction there. When I open my mouth, even slightly, I lose the suction in the mid-section so that only the front of the tongue remains up. Since you feel that you suction increases when you open your mouth, I likely still do not place my tongue up far enough. This is likely because my palate is still too narrow. After all, it was only once I was able to fit my tongue between my teeth without extreme tightness that I began feeling any suction whatsoever.

Progress has some very interesting results, I would recommend this one above all, Look up "Progress of Progress" in adult case discussion.

Right. I'm familiar with his thread. Though the pictures aren't perfectly accurate, they are definitely suggestive of progress. The fact that he was able to achieve significant IMW increase using just the tongue is also impressive. I've also heard of Jamo, but I will check out the other sources that you've listed. If he still plans to do so, I look forward to TGW posting pictures of his progress.

Thanks again, and yes, you've definitely helped by clarifying some things for me.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 19/10/2019 6:00 pm
max iller liked
darby_jones
Active Member

Am I crazy? I see forward growth of your maxilla. Trace a line in Photoshop over your nose and lips and jawline in the first photo then overlay it on the second one. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/10/2019 4:16 am
gubbbb
Active Member

Thanks for doing great before and afters I hope you'll update in a year or two

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Posted : 11/11/2019 5:26 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@gubbbb

Yes, I plan to keep this thread updated with any signs of progress.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 11/11/2019 6:31 pm
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

@elwynn

Hey, these are probably some of the best pictures on the forum!

I can relate to you a lot in these pictures. I have the same range of IMW, and have been (properly i hope) mewing for 5 months I believe, and I have nothing to show for.

I have a habit when mewing where I feel uncomfortable and break my lip seal to lick my lips or whatever. I feel this has harmed me a lot! Continuous lip seal is gonna be one of my goals from now on.

Also I have trouble with breathing and mewing simultaneously. Speaks for itself really.

I haven't woken up with a open mouth I think, but maybe it's cause I don't check or remember.

I have never really felt sensations.

I don't think you necessarily have to push against your molars, but you do have to at least fit in. To me it feels like it fits but I don't know for sure.

I might be doing the suction hold wrong. Whenever I stop doing it, I hear a little sound that sounds like I broke the suction hold. Is this correct?

Thanks again for this post.

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Posted : 12/11/2019 12:03 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@oatmeal

Hey, these are probably some of the best pictures on the forum!

Thanks!

I have a habit when mewing where I feel uncomfortable and break my lip seal to lick my lips or whatever. I feel this has harmed me a lot! Continuous lip seal is gonna be one of my goals from now on.

I think this depends on how long you break your lip seal for. If you break it only to lick your lips and soon after, resume correct lip seal, then I wouldn't worry about it. Everyone - including those with well-developed faces - has to break good oral posture at some point during the day in order to eat, talk, brush teeth, etc. The point is not to be a mewing-machine, but to train yourself so that you mew naturally when at rest.

Also I have trouble with breathing and mewing simultaneously. Speaks for itself really.

You obviously have a better view of your situation than I do, but if I were you, I would explore this further. I think that in order for mewing to be effective, you should be able to do it unconsciously; when there's a lot of mental effort required to maintain a good oral posture, then as soon as your mind directs its undivided attention towards a task at hand, you risk losing your good posture. Again, mewing should be your default when in a relaxed state.

I have never really felt sensations.

I haven't either, until quite recently when I started to engage more of my posterior tongue. If you're doing this already, then maybe there's a different element of mewing that you're missing?

While we have a basic idea of what good oral posture should be, we still lack a comprehensive understanding of all the processes at play. This is likely the reason why most people who pick up mewing do not seem to make any definitive progress that couldn't be chalked up to varied conditions between comparison pictures and personal delusion. Nonetheless, there's a sizable minority on this forum who are experiencing changes. Mewing is an unfinished project, and I think that @admin had the right idea when he said that he wouldn't be surprised if the "breakthrough" came from members of this forum. Now, whether the pioneer will actually prove to be one of us or a professional doctor isn't hugely important in the grand scheme of things, but the key takeaway from admin's statement is that we are in still in search of a better understanding. Since we're on the right track, I think that this breakthrough isn't far away.

In line with this reasoning, I found that what has helped me the most in my personal case is constantly learning and re-evaluating my oral posture. It seems that every few months, I notice something new that I ought to focus on.

I might be doing the suction hold wrong. Whenever I stop doing it, I hear a little sound that sounds like I broke the suction hold. Is this correct?

I hear this sound as well, but I'm probably not the best person to ask, since my suction hold is still in need of much improvement.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/11/2019 2:56 pm
Oatmeal liked
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

@elwynn

Hey! Thanks for the response.

What do we mean by sensations anyway? Like a pressure in or around our cheekbones or something like that? Always confused me. It could be that I have felt these sensations and never knew the cause?

Anyway I checked up and I think I engage my posterior third and mew while doing other tasks. I'm gonna try to keep track of if I mew at sleep though, since while I am confident I don't have an open mouth while sleeping (no stuffy nose, don't feel tired, mouth is not dry, not snoring) I cannot be 100% sure.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/11/2019 7:16 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@oatmeal

What do we mean by sensations anyway? Like a pressure in or around our cheekbones or something like that? Always confused me. It could be that I have felt these sensations and never knew the cause?

I felt pressure around my cheekbones and cracks within the sphenoid region, and occasionally other parts of the skull as well. My ears also pop sometimes when I swallow hard, but I think that's the case with a lot of people, so I wouldn't consider that a "sensation" suggestive of progress.

Anyway I checked up and I think I engage my posterior third and mew while doing other tasks. I'm gonna try to keep track of if I mew at sleep though, since while I am confident I don't have an open mouth while sleeping (no stuffy nose, don't feel tired, mouth is not dry, not snoring) I cannot be 100% sure.

Unfortunately, I don't know what to recommend because in my case, the situation is simple: I frequently wake up with my mouth ajar and drool on the bed-sheet, so I know that I mouth-breathe during sleep. But, I'm almost certain that it's caused by my poor sleeping position (arms under my belly, lying with my face pressing down into the mattress). If I can re-train myself to sleep a different way, maybe I'll fix my mouth-breathing problem too.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 12/11/2019 9:08 pm
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

@elwynn

Yeah, try to sleep on your back with you arms at your sides. Some people like to leave their head in a chin tuck position doing it. One thing I can recommend is to buy a really flat pillow, so your neck doesn't feel extended.

Other than that I don't know what else to do for myself. I guess it's to just examine if I'm mewing correctly every once in a while, and just to maybe stop thinking about it so much.

Cheers, and hope you progress. 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 13/11/2019 8:23 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

2-Month Update

I have noticed a few aesthetic changes, since my original post. Here's a quick rundown:

  • Cheekbones more defined: I have noticed this improvement very early on, but it seems to have continued, and there is a noticeable change even in comparison to two months ago. I was initially unsure of whether this effect was exclusively due to facial musculature buildup, but the presence of other changes that appear skeletal makes me now lean toward the belief that this improvement is also skeletal. Besides, when padding my face dry with my hands recently, I have also noticed that the cheekbone region feels more "bony" than before; it's unlikely to be only soft-tissue.
  • Mid-face wider: The region between cheekbone and ear appears to have been especially widened. Perhaps this accounts for the greater definition in cheekbones. This, I believe to be skeletal.
  • Jaw slightly more angular: I have a very oval jawline, but my masseters have become more pronounced recently, giving my jawline a slightly more square look. When I bite down, I can see a line running from masseters to cheekbone that wasn't present before. Interestingly, I have not directly worked toward building up my masseter muscles: I do not chew gum, I do not chew my food hard (though perhaps I should start), and to my knowledge I do not clench. I've simply tried to keep my teeth gently together when at rest.
  • Chin appears slightly more pronounced: This is likely just due to having figured out better lip seal, but it could also be that this better lip seal allowed my front teeth to retrocline a bit (which is good in my case, since my front teeth are much too proclined)...or something else. I will keep an eye on it.
  • Nasal bump more pronounced: This is unfortunate. My nose has a small bump visible from the profile, but it is very pronounced from a 3 / 4 view, because although the dorsum doesn't stick out forward very much, it is quite wider than the nasion. If my mid-face has gotten wider, then it's possible that my dorsum also has, and this produced the effect on my nose. Unfortunate though it may be, I don't plan to alter my mewing practice. If good facial development gives me a nose with a bigger bump, so be it; I just want a healthy development. That being said, if I achieve any forward or upward development of the maxilla, it could offset this recent change, and make my nasal bump less prominent. I guess we'll see.

Apart from aesthetic changes, it's worth pointing out that my ability to maintain a good oral posture has also improved. I am, for instance, able to secure my tongue with a suction hold much further back the palate than I have before. In fact, I feel that I'm now able to, briefly, assume an oral posture that is ideal or near-ideal. The catch is that I can't maintain it for very long. Still, it means progress, considering that this used to be impossible for me to do, even for a brief moment.

Furthermore, as others have on several occasions pointed out elsewhere, progress is not necessarily linear. In my case, I observe that I stagnate whenever I stop questioning my oral posture and mewing practice. Progress for me seems to occur in bursts, accomplished over a period of time after I discover room for improvement in my posture and overall practice.

I have taken new comparison pictures, but I haven't made them into a GIF, because my quick glance at them doesn't perceive any significant changes that can't be attributed to angle or lighting. But, if anybody really wants to see them, I'll do that.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/02/2020 12:15 am
max iller
Eminent Member

@elwynn

Considering the quality of your comparisons I'd love to see them

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Posted : 14/02/2020 1:55 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@maxiller

I made two GIFs: in the first comparison, both frames match in scale, and in the second one, the "after" was - by accident - taken a little closer to the camera, which required me to scale it down (by about 1.5%). Why am I even including a manipulated comparison GIF when I'm already posting one that is not manipulated? To hammer home my earlier point that small discrepancies in scale, distance, angle, etc. can have an unprecedentedly large impact on the perception of "changes". Case in point, although I only had to scale one of the "after" photos to get the frames to match, I had to rotate both of the "after" photos by about a degree or two to get them to align. This likely has an affect on how the midface was captured in the photos.

For this reason, I don't really trust these comparisons. Maybe I have achieved some minor structural improvement; maybe I haven't. It's hard to ascertain either because the "changes" visible in the pictures may be illusory - they may simply be products of camera distance, rotation, angle, scale, lighting, etc. Anyway, here they are:

EDIT: For anyone turning in here, these before-and-afters are about 8 months apart.

Oh, I didn't bother covering my eyes this time, but please avoid sharing these pictures elsewhere, if you can avoid it. Thanks.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/02/2020 5:35 pm
max iller
Eminent Member

@elwynn

It's hard to gauge changes based on individual features but looking at the big picture you look better in general. Around the eyes and your skin tone looks much better. Your posture is improving too. There's a subtle yet noticeable change in the personality of your face that is an improvement i reck

Good stuff

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/02/2020 6:17 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@maxiller

Thank you. In regard to the eyes, I think that they look better in the "after" mainly because I was looking downward in the "before". Nonetheless, I do notice a change in eye support and cheekbone definition in the mirror. In fact, I notice a lot of subtle improvements in the mirror. It's a shame that it's difficult to capture them in photos. Maybe if I had a good camera and a reliable set up, it would be possible, though. I would love to be able to corroborate what I see in the mirror with objective visual evidence. I also regret not taking frontal or 3/4 view photos earlier, because it's from those angles that most of the changes are recognizable. Maybe I will start.

As to my posture, yes, it has definitely improved. I distinctly remember that when I was taking the first "before" picture, I struggled to breathe with my tongue in the back. For the "after" photo, though, that wasn't wasn't a problem.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/02/2020 2:14 am
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

Have you ever tried measuring your fwhr? (facial with to height ratio) That's a pretty good way to gauge how much wider your midface is.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 20/02/2020 10:44 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@oatmeal

No, but I will try to now. If I ever notice that it changes, I'll mention it.

24 years old

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Posted : 20/02/2020 1:12 pm
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

Yeah, it isn't too hard to do so by the way. Measure between your bizygomatic width (distance between your cheekbones) and from the bottom of your brow bone to the top of your upper lip

ReplyQuote
Posted : 21/02/2020 10:17 am
Elwynn liked
maxillary
Active Member

Before seems slightly more forward grown, I can't tell any difference.

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Posted : 24/02/2020 6:27 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@traxanas

I think it's largely camera distortion that's producing this effect. If there were any real, structural changes, then they're probably very subtle, and can't yet be picked up by the camera. I have observed improvements more clearly in the mirror, but most of those are probably soft-tissue changes.

I'm not necessarily convinced that all forms of CFD will be resolved by upswing of the maxilla, and I entertain other methods by which the skull will adapt to a healthier posture. So, I'm not quick to make judgments about precisely what happened between the before and after; I'm just looking for any tangible changes at all, really.

24 years old

ReplyQuote
Posted : 24/02/2020 1:50 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@elwynn


Can you elaborate more on soft tissue changes? I get the idea of mewings purpose to hopefully move or grow bone, but how does it change soft tissue without skeletal movement. Also, what soft tissue changes are you seeing?

Thanks 

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Posted : 24/02/2020 4:25 pm
dragonshark
New Member

Woah very nice tracking!

 

You gotto make a progress pic taking guide.

How did you make sure you had no head tilt sideways.?

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Posted : 24/02/2020 6:55 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@robbie343

Can you elaborate more on soft tissue changes? I get the idea of mewings purpose to hopefully move or grow bone, but how does it change soft tissue without skeletal movement. Also, what soft tissue changes are you seeing?

Well, I think that before any real skeletal changes take place, some soft tissue improvements have to be made because it's the musculature that guides the body into a proper posture. Those of us who have had a bad posture for most of our lives are likely to be deficient in the strength of many muscles. This is evidenced, for example, by the fact that many beginners struggle to hold up their tongues when starting out, though this gets easier over time. I think that once the deficient muscles are built up enough to facilitate a good posture, then bones will respond by adapting.

Some of the soft-tissue changes that I have observed are:

  • More pronounced cheekbones: When looking at myself from the front in my bathroom mirror, I see that while the sides of my cheeks are obscured by shadow, the regions under my eyes catch more light. In the 3/4 view, my cheekbone used to form almost a vertical line from my eye, but now there is a small bump there.
  • My cheeks appear a little less chubby.
  • More defined masseters: when I bite down, I can now trace a line going from my masseters to my cheekbones, which wasn't there before. Though I have a round jawline when looking at myself from the front, I can make it appear more rectangular when I flex my masseters - again, that wasn't the case before (note: I do not encourage clenching).
  • Brow more defined: My forehead used to be smooth, but now I see a subtle dimple above the glabella and more pronunciation around the corrugation muscles. In general, I think this makes my forehead look a little more masculine.
  • Since learning how to suction my tongue to the roof of my mouth, the area of my throat under my jaw no longer droops down at rest.

There are more subtle changes that I've observed, but it's difficult to pin all of them down. In general, my face looks a bit more defined, and I find it fairly simple to hold a decent (if not yet ideal) posture, whereas previously, I had to exert a lot of physical and mental effort to do so.

@dragonshark

Thank you.

You gotto make a progress pic taking guide.

I posted instructions on how I took my comparison photos in my earlier response on this thread.

How did you make sure you had no head tilt sideways.?

This is one of the deficiencies of my method: I haven't done that. If you wanted to do that, you'd probably have to perch your head on some tripod, or something. I also haven't equalized the lighting, and although I marked off where I should stand and place the camera, I still probably end up shifting myself or the camera around 1cm each time. You'd probably need a studio quality set up to take perfect comparison photos (which is not to say that it's outside of our reach).

24 years old

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Posted : 24/02/2020 7:54 pm
Robbie343
Trusted Member

@elwynn

That change in brow is very interesting to me. I’m the exact opposite. I used to have a very pronounced bulges above my eyebrows. I used to be able hang my glasses above them. Since my maxilla has came down my forehead is now smooth even the wrinkles went away and thus my forehead appears taller. 

Sound like if a person can get downward movement they can possibly get upward movement as well. That’s pretty cool to hear.

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Posted : 25/02/2020 1:12 am
Elwynn
Estimable Member

Update 1:

The thread exploring the differences between the masseter and the temporal pattern motivated me to adjust my chewing habits. I used to prioritize biting forwards, toward my incisors, under the belief that this would promote forward growth. I doubt that I made any significant progress in that regard, but what biting primarily forwards did is increase the size of my masseters. Well, because of the aforementioned thread, I started biting backwards with my molars, in addition to the forward chewing that I was used to. Backward chewing mainly flexed the muscles behind my temples, but also the muscles directly above my masseters (my knowledge of anatomy is poor; maybe someone can guess what these muscles are called?). Anyway, over a month or two of this practice, I noticed some minor changes in the musculature of my face. Notably, I saw an increase in the size of the muscles right above my masseters. Here's an illustration:

It's possible that I have also developed the muscles behind my temples (it would make sense, after all, since I've been flexing them), but I can't speak much about that, because it's harder for me to assess what changes (if any) occurred there.

Note that this change is very minor, and probably only muscular. I doubt that I've achieved any noticeable skeletal improvement (so far), and I don't think these changes would be easily noticeable in pictures. Nonetheless, I'm certain that they have occurred, because I've been scrutinizing my face in the mirror in the same fashion, under the same lighting, and at the same time of the day for a while now.

Update 2:

I'll include here a few pictures of a mold of my upper teeth, which I received recently. I think they shine a light on the nature of my problem - in particular, just how proclined my upper incisors are. Again, this is most likely the result of my orthodontist shifting my teeth around (it is not the result of me pushing my tongue against my incisors, since that's not a habit I have). In case anyone's curious, the distance between my first molars (measured from where the teeth meet the gums) is about 36mm. The IMW between the second molars is greater (around 40mm).

24 years old

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Posted : 12/05/2020 5:00 pm