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Active plate expansion progress at 19 years old  

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Kilroy
Active Member

To start of with I am 19 years old, I have been mewing and have taped my mouth at night since I was 14, and chewing falim for about the last two years. My face has changed and my palate has problaly expanded about 1-2mm (I measured wrong before, and measuring at that same wrong point again has shown an increase of around 2mm in width). My resting oral posture has also become correct (teeth together, tounge at the roof of the mouth, correct swallow etc).

The problem I have is that my intermolar width is only around 32m at the moment, it feels restricted and my tounge doesn't have enough space. I have snored from my tounge being in the airway occasionally as well. Therefore I have decided to expand my palate. So my plan is to expand around 1mm a week but expanding more aaggressively in the beginning.

Since the molars and premolars of the mandible can change into a more upright position to accommodate the expansion, but the incicors problaly wont since they dont have the same groove that would force them into occlusion. I plan to expand as much as I can as long as I don't see any negative effect such as major molar tipping, gum recession, pain etc. If i get any expansion that would give me larger oral volume I will be happy with the results.

Unless this would split my suture and increase my nasal breathing, I will do the MSE in the future. But I am figuring that this might give me the benefit of increased oral volume in the meantime.

 

 

So the purpose with this thread would be to post progress, and for others to give input/ask questions.

 

 

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Posted : 07/07/2020 2:22 am
Kilroy
Active Member

I have since the original post made the impressions and sent them off. I have also considered getting the lower schwarz expander if the upper expansion seems to go well. Because if the upper expansion goes well I could continue the expansion beyond the point of my bite being correct without any appliance for the lower dental arch. I wouldn't expect to get any significant bone remodeling or expansion of the mandible if any, but tipping and slight movement of the teeth would still allow me to expand my upper arch further.

 

I will also add that I have frequent and long lasting colds/upper respiratory infections that I'd say I have around 75% of all time. Although these started occuring after I had monocleosis, so it might primarily be something else primary causing it. I have a doctors oppintment regarding this matter so I guess I might find out something then. It would be interesting to see if expansion would help with this issue

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Posted : 11/07/2020 5:15 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

how can u get an expander without an ortho

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Posted : 13/07/2020 7:10 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

it seems u did everything right but not much growth. SO maybe hard mewing is needed

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Posted : 13/07/2020 7:11 am
Kilroy
Active Member

@Rockyp33

I ordered my expander from bracesshop. The thing is that I have had my tounge at the roof of the mouth, but my palate is narrow so it hasn't been able to be engaged enough to be able produce any significant change. Although I have managed to engage my posterior third at the back of palate which I think is the reason my wisdom teeth seem flared out and even my second molar to a small degree, that is the area which I can feel my tongue is properly engaged.

My hope is for the expander to expand my maxilla so I can have my tongue in a comfortable engaged position (among the other potential positive effects of course). At the moment my tounge is sort of squished together in my palate in a position in which it cannot excrete any significant force, but it's there 24/7.

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Posted : 13/07/2020 7:51 am
mewgod
New Member

@Kilroy I think your right about the tongue flaring out the back teeth. My wisdom teeth haven't come in yet so its my second molars flaring out because of posterior third tongue engagement with not enough inter-molar width ( about 33mm)

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Posted : 14/07/2020 11:11 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

So the expander has arrived, my initial reaction is that swallowing with only the posterior third of the tounge is hard and my mouth fills with saliva, my speach is impaired but not as much as I thought it would be. It also prevents occlusion so my jaw is not happy with not having a nice place to rest.

I have already expanded 1 turn (0,25mm) and I am slightly concerned that the preasure I feel is on my teeth and not my palate so I am thinking this might only result in tipping.

For future updates I am thinking that I will post all the turns I have made and on which days each week as well as posting pictures of my arch if anything interesting has happened.

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Posted : 24/08/2020 10:37 am
Mewem143
Active Member

It seems your left 2nd molar is a bit tipped already. I'm thinking of removing the parts that hit my 2nd molars since I think expansion has more to do with the 1st molars. I've heard people say that as they started mewing their 2nd molars tipped, but after expanding their IMW, the 2nd molars eventually became straight. So I'm thinking expanding only at the 1st molars won't change much and could actually alleviate the tipping of my 2nd molars. And I'm thinking expansion/ tipping of upper teeth combined with chewing will lead to the same expansion/ tipping on the bottom teeth, so you may not need the lower schwarz appliance imo.

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Posted : 24/08/2020 12:58 pm
Kilroy
Active Member
Posted by: @mewem143

It seems your left 2nd molar is a bit tipped already. I'm thinking of removing the parts that hit my 2nd molars since I think expansion has more to do with the 1st molars. I've heard people say that as they started mewing their 2nd molars tipped, but after expanding their IMW, the 2nd molars eventually became straight. So I'm thinking expanding only at the 1st molars won't change much and could actually alleviate the tipping of my 2nd molars. And I'm thinking expansion/ tipping of upper teeth combined with chewing will lead to the same expansion/ tipping on the bottom teeth, so you may not need the lower schwarz appliance imo.

I think the main reason peoples second molars expand/tip is because there is more tounge space in the back of the palate for the tongue to engage and therefore expand/tip the second molars more than any other teeth in the mouth except for the wisdom teeth.

But why would you think expansion would have to do more with the first molar? I would imagine that the more spread out the force is the better, and if the goal would be to split the suture, which would be highly improbable with an acrylic expander only, it would definitely be better to spread out the force so that the pressure is as low as possible on each tooth while still delivering the same amount of pressure to the suture.

If I were to mess around with the acryllic around the teeth I think it would be a better idea to remove the acrylic contact with every tooth so the preasure would instead be directed to to palate/alveolar bone only. And the reason for this would be to alleviate as much pressure as possible from the teeth to avoid tipping. Although I wouldn't do it myself unless it would be as a last resort since i suspect it would have the potential to mess up the whole appliance.

Regarding the lower expander, I have since the post in which I talked about getting one reconsidered again and I will do all the upper expansion first with chewing to maintain my bite as much as possible, and first when I stop the upper expansion I will se where I'm at and then decide if I am going to order the lower expander. I also think my my lower dental arch has a lot of potential to adopt to an expanded upper since it looks like there is a lot of bone around my lower teeth as well as them being tipped inwards quite a lot.

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Posted : 24/08/2020 1:47 pm
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Mewem143
Active Member

@kilroy Yeah you're right, we cannot really expect the expander to split the suture, but instead to make enough space for us to split the suture using our tongues. My situation is that I've tipped my molars from mewing and don't know what I should do with the expander/ don't want to make it worse: https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/expander-with-tipped-molars/

Maybe I can expand to where I'm satisfied and then stop using it (hopefully the 2nd molars goes back to being straight), or just straight up shave the 2nd molar parts hoping it will expand with the rest. Not sure but would like to have your input since you already have your device (mine is still coming in the mail)

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Posted : 24/08/2020 2:11 pm
Mewem143
Active Member

Also here is a link to some guy on youtube I found who had decent progress from using the expander from braces shop

Beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcK851Leir0

A few months in (you can see his cheekbones more defined): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcwICLEPmbw

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Posted : 24/08/2020 2:14 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

@mewem143

I checked out your topic and your molars seem way less tipped than mine. I don't really know what to do about it I guess I will continue to expand and see what happens. I have my device but I recieved it today so no change has happend yet.

Although I am thinking that whats most important is that the occlusion is proper, and if the occlusion is proper with the second molars tipped outwards, perhaps it doesn't matter that much that they are tipped outwards, but this is just me speculating.

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Posted : 24/08/2020 2:20 pm
Elwynn
Estimable Member

@mewem143

How have you come to this conclusion? I compared his face between the two videos, and can't identify any differences that couldn't just be chalked up to lighting and angle.

24 years old

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Posted : 24/08/2020 4:52 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

@mewem143 I have seen that guys videos and I have to say that he says really stupid things regarding this subject. He doesn't give any information on how he has worn the appliance like how many hours/day he wears it and how often he turns the screw. He also says things that are just not true when it comes to expansion with a schwarz expander and in general doesn't seem to have a clue about what he is talking about. I also agree with @elwynn regarding facial changes.

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Posted : 25/08/2020 1:23 am
Mewem143 liked
Kilroy
Active Member

So a little update, I have as mentioned turned the screw one turn yesterday. WhenI tried to chew gum today me teeth feel too sore to chew which is worrying. I am now actually considering filing down the parts of the expanderthat are in contact with my teeth.

Or perhaps to use the DNA/Homeoblock approach with only one turn per week and leaving it out during the day if my currect approach isn't working.

I also made a slight modification to make the expander a bit more symetrical and make my bite more comfortable when wearing the expander which was to remove the part of the expander outside the red line.

 

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Posted : 25/08/2020 6:00 am
Mewem143 liked
Mewem143
Active Member

Was the part you removed getting in between your teeth/ occlusion? Also how has the adjustment turned out?

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Posted : 25/08/2020 3:16 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

@mewem143 Well the expander still prevents proper occlusion, but that edge made it feel maybe 30% better (I'm pulling that number out of my [Rude Language will not be tolerated] but it got a lot better, but it still prevents proper occlusion), the benifit is that now my jaws resting position feels more symetrical. But it is still probably pretty asymmetrical in general considering that my jaw looks completely different on the left compared to my right side.

I also noticed that your expander has that same asymmetry on the second molar, perhaps it will be something you will notice aswell once you get your expander.

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Posted : 25/08/2020 4:19 pm
Limebike
Eminent Member

@kilroy Are you hoping that your lower teeth will gradually adapt to the expanded upper teeth? From your before pictures, you can see that your lower teeth are all tipped lingually to compensate for your narrow upper arch. If you expand too aggressively on the upper arch, your lower arch might not track. You might want to consider expanding your lower arch with another expander.

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Posted : 25/08/2020 4:51 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

@limebike It seems like I can expand at 0,125mm a day (half turn) which is what I will do if it doesn't seem to go bad. Regarding the lower teeth I am thinking that I will do all the upper expansion first and then see how my bite is and then order the lower expander if it is needed for proper occlusion. I guess you could say I'm "happy" that my lower teeth are tipped inwards since it means they can adjust for more upper expansion compared to if they were not.

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Posted : 26/08/2020 2:45 am
Limebike
Eminent Member

@kilroy OK just don't get yourself into a position where you can't bite properly anymore. 

 

Your lower premolars are tipped in almost 45 degrees. Your molars to a lesser extent

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Posted : 26/08/2020 5:07 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

@limebike

I wouldn't say they are 45 degrees, although they are tipped inwards quite a bit. I am also thinking that if my upper expansion causes me not to be able to bite it is fine since I will in that case get the lower expander, and I could also let the upper relapse a bit as well.

Another thing I might add in general is that my lower wisdom teeth are just slightly impacted, it looks like if they were just a few degrees straighter they would erupt correctly. I am also thinking that maybe a lower expander could change the position of the second molars to a straighter position and perhaps outwards in the bone and that that possibly could allow my wisdom teeth to erupt. Which would be nice since molar uprighting would cost quite a bit and I'm not having them extracted, but they could also stay hidden under the gums for some time as well since they are not causing any problems.

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Posted : 27/08/2020 6:40 am
Limebike
Eminent Member

@kilroy Your lower left second premolar is definitely tipped about 45°. Premolars are not supposed to function like canines. Their "surface" (with two cusps) should be level with the ground. In your case, although your occlusion is very good (like a gear), your upper premolars bite on the outer edges of your lower premolars. Here is a related video: https://youtu.be/58GkcpcC6eQ?t=27 The outward tipping in the video is what you will need. Good luck!

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Posted : 27/08/2020 3:19 pm
Mewem143
Active Member

Updates? Have you made any further changes to your expander or routine?

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Posted : 28/08/2020 7:23 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

@mewem143

So far I have turned the expander like this:

  • Day 1 (24 aug) 0,25mm
  • Day 2 (25 aug)
  • Day 3 (26 aug) 0,125mm
  • Day 4 (27 aug)
  • Day 5 (28 aug) 0,125mm + 0,0625mm +0,0625mm

I mentioned earlier that my teeth felt quite sore, they still feel sore but not as much, if the soreness doesn't subside within a few days I will stop expanding untill my teeth aren't sore anymore and then start turning but at a much slower pace and perhaps leave it out for some time during the day sort of like the homeoblock and DNA appliances are used instead of the rate and usage which orthotropics use.

 

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Posted : 29/08/2020 7:06 am
Limebike
Eminent Member

@kilroy Do you get a feeling of pressure across the whole palate (and not just on the teeth)? If so, that is good.

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Posted : 29/08/2020 7:19 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

@limebike No only the teeth, I think I am going to stop using the expander in in part because of what I just mentioned which leads me to believe that it is just my teeth that will start to tilt. But more because the experience I had yesterday taking the expander off after having expanded it only 0,625mm, which made my bite feel really of, it felt uncomfortable, asymetrical and not all my teeth were in contact. Being able to bite really hard on both sides didn't go as usual either.

Now if I were able to expand further a great majority of that would be tipping, and risking my bite feeling so off which felt way worse then I though is not something I am willing to risk to potentially get some more tongue space.

Instead I will most likely opt for the MSE when I have the finaches for it since I seriues trouble breathing through my nose.

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Posted : 30/08/2020 7:16 am
Limebike
Eminent Member

@kilroy.I see.One thing to note though is that your upper teeth are actually tipped in so that you can tolerate some outward tipping. You just need to expand the lower simultaneously. 

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Posted : 30/08/2020 11:00 am
Kilroy
Active Member

@limebike Not really, my lower teeth are tipped inwards to match the upper teeth which tilt slightly outwards.

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Posted : 30/08/2020 1:09 pm
Limebike
Eminent Member

@kilroy If you look at this picture, you can see that your posterior (back) teeth are tipped inwards. 

I agree that it would make sense that a normal compensation for inwards tipped lower teeth is to have outward tipped upper teeth. But in your case, your teeth did not compensate in this way. Rather, your bite at the outset was one where your posterior teeth are gripping into each other on their outer edges.

 

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Posted : 30/08/2020 2:07 pm
Kilroy
Active Member

@limebike I have seen cases where both upper and lower teeth are tilted inwards when reading through studies, but looking at my upper impression from the same view as the photos I posted of my lower impression, it looks like my teeth don't tip to much outwards except for my molars which definitely tip outwards, specially my second molars.

But regardless, since I exclusively feel pressure at my teeth using the expander even paired with some pretty agressive thumb pulling, I don't feel anything around my suture, so continuing using the expander might not be my best choice as I suspect that only tipping would occur. I would also guess that I have fairly dense bones since I have been active my whole life and have specially been doing some heavy lifting paired with vitamin D and calcium supplementation throughout puberty.

Edit: Well that along with hard chewing for a few years.

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Posted : 31/08/2020 4:53 am
Limebike
Eminent Member

@kilroy Before you give up on the expander, I suggest the following: After each turn of the screw, trim away the acrylic touching the teeth a little bit, so that the expander never touches any teeth and you are purely applying the pressure to the palate.

I just started expanding my upper arch again 4 days ago and have immediately gotten a diastema after the first night. Of course, palates are different etc. For context, I am in my early 30s. I had braces as a kid (acrylic expander first, then fixed braces), had a relapse where I had a narrow upper arch (unilateral crossbite) and a class 3 malocclusion that was to some extend camouflaged by a functional shift of the mandible to one side. In my early/mid 20s, my previous orthodontist expanded my upper arch via an acrylic expander to fix the crossbite. Class 3 elastics were used but they did not result in my upper dental arch being pulled forward but only temporarily cramping my mandible back into the joint. My wide arch was also somewhat not proper, because the only reason it looked wide is because my whole dental arch was distalized (the further back you go, the wider the jaw gets). 

Now during the lockdown I had some time and decided to fix this problem my own. I have been fabricating my own clear aligners and used class 3 elastics for months until I brought my recessed side so much forward that my canines were biting edge to edge. This is were I am now expanding my anterior arch using an acrylic expander I fabricated. I am using a semi-rapid protocol (1 mm per week). 

Maybe my expansion in my 20s and my on and off retainer wear led to my suture never really fusing. In any case, I am happy that within the first 4 days, I was able to expand by 1 mm and have little to no pressure on my teeth. I am even feeling pressure on my zygos but are not sure whether that is due to some effects related to  musculature (the acrylic expander in my palate somewhat attracts my tongue and I have subconsciously mewing super hard as a result; the first day I woke up, I had soreness in my hyoid region, which I never had before; I read from Salludon/helmutstrebel that he was hardmewing to the point of soreness in hyoid region; during my regular mewing, I never got that point but with the acrylic expander acting as some kind of force multiplier/catalyst, this is what I am getting now) 

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Posted : 27/09/2020 8:43 pm