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MSE+FM  

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neverrelaxed
Active Member

Hello,

 

I am beginning my MSE+facemask journey due to @varbrah  @futuremalemodel , starting at 38 intermolar, will keep this updated, will be using bone remodeling tools during the journey, looking for 12mm of expansion and as much protraction as humanly possible

 

currently a class 2 getting bsso post 9 months

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Posted : 22/04/2019 5:43 pm
megamandude
Trusted Member

Awesome, did you already get set up for it by an ortho already, and if so can you tell us which one?

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Posted : 22/04/2019 6:17 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

not yet on may 28th I will , got it fitted being shipped from great lakes ortho company and orthodontic harmony was the place highly recommend good prices man

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Posted : 22/04/2019 7:33 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Whoa!!  You’re going to squint your eyes.  Your IMW isn’t bad.

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Posted : 22/04/2019 9:06 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

What’s your nasolabial angle?

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Posted : 22/04/2019 9:06 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

getting new seph will measure curious on what you guys think about seph i have curve of spee to a great degree ortho said, so good reminder to check

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Posted : 22/04/2019 9:15 pm
megamandude
Trusted Member

I hope you know you have to get an ortho to install the MSE for you since you need to drill screws into your palate right?

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Posted : 22/04/2019 11:57 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Yup installed on the 28th of next month

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Posted : 23/04/2019 10:32 am
Melius
Active Member

Nice! I believe I have about the same IMW for my first molars (I measured using measuring tape and my plastic retainers) and am looking to get MSE with a Face Mask for my under bite ASAP! 

-Melius

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Posted : 23/04/2019 10:36 am
Melius
Active Member

Why are you getting BSSO afterwards? Would it be to bring your lower jaw forward after your maxilla is protracted?

-Melius

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Posted : 23/04/2019 10:37 am
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Hi, nice man let me know how it goes or pm me, and yeah MSE will bring lower jaw forward slightly but I still have a bad bite so it won't completely save 

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Posted : 23/04/2019 11:53 am
Melius
Active Member

Will do (I'll create a topic focused on my case study) and I just PM'd you. 

-Melius

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Posted : 23/04/2019 2:21 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Which doctor is doing MSE+Facemask on you?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 23/04/2019 2:24 pm
megamandude
Trusted Member

Oh and also man are you class II division 1 or 2?

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Posted : 23/04/2019 2:42 pm
Melius
Active Member

@Le_Fort_or_Bust I'm planning on doing a consultation with two Orthos in the Los Angeles area. Dr MacGinnis (Won Moon used to work with him) and Dr. Ting (overall attitude seems just based on website seems more based). Will get treatment started ASAP.

More details here: Choosing Doctor for MSE + FM for Class III Bite

-Melius

ReplyQuote
Posted : 23/04/2019 2:47 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member

What do you mean with bone remodeling tools?

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Posted : 23/04/2019 3:10 pm
Melius
Active Member
Posted by: bundfalke

What do you mean with bone remodeling tools?

I second this question.

-Melius

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Posted : 23/04/2019 3:19 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: Melius

@Le_Fort_or_Bust I'm planning on doing a consultation with two Orthos in the Los Angeles area. Dr MacGinnis (Won Moon used to work with him) and Dr. Ting (overall attitude seems just based on website seems more based). Will get treatment started ASAP.

More details here: Choosing Doctor for MSE + FM for Class III Bite

-Melius

If my bite is even as it has been straightened by braces will these docs refuse treatment with MSE+Facemask for aesthetic purposes (widening the face and such)? 

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 23/04/2019 3:26 pm
Melius
Active Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

 

If my bite is even as it has been straightened by braces will these docs refuse treatment with MSE+Facemask for aesthetic purposes (widening the face and such)? 

Oof, that's a tough one. Do you mean your teeth are straight? Or do you mean you have a correct bite? My teeth were straightened but I still have an underbite, hence, I seem like a good candidate for MSE + Face Mask just on the face of it.

IF you already have a "good bite", then i don't know...technically both your jaws could be set back and you'd still have a correct bite. If that's the case, then you're likely to have airway issues and would be a candidate for at least some sort of procedure, even aesthetically, I'm somewhat confident you'd be a candidate for something. As far as MSE is concerned, if you have a narrow palate, even with a "good bite" then you can probably be a candidate. As far as using a Face Mask, I dont' know... @neverrelaxed is a class ii overbite and yet he still plans on using a Face Mask.

-Melius

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Posted : 23/04/2019 3:56 pm
DrMario liked
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: Melius
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

 

If my bite is even as it has been straightened by braces will these docs refuse treatment with MSE+Facemask for aesthetic purposes (widening the face and such)? 

Oof, that's a tough one. Do you mean your teeth are straight? Or do you mean you have a correct bite? My teeth were straightened but I still have an underbite, hence, I seem like a good candidate for MSE + Face Mask just on the face of it.

IF you already have a "good bite", then i don't know...technically both your jaws could be set back and you'd still have a correct bite. If that's the case, then you're likely to have airway issues and would be a candidate for at least some sort of procedure, even aesthetically, I'm somewhat confident you'd be a candidate for something. As far as MSE is concerned, if you have a narrow palate, even with a "good bite" then you can probably be a candidate. As far as using a Face Mask, I dont' know... @neverrelaxed is a class ii overbite and yet he still plans on using a Face Mask.

-Melius

Well my teeth are straight, but tilted to compensate for jaw misalignment. Yes, my bite is good, but again - not because my jaws are even, the teeth have been tipped with braces to correct for jaw misalignment.  I want to correct the jaw misalignment and then realign the teeth so they fit. I need this for aesthetics first and foremost.

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 24/04/2019 5:41 am
DrMario
Eminent Member

Hello,

I am actually in the same boat where my bite is already good, but my IMW is only 33mm...

What you said above I feel really resonates with my situation. I do have a Class I/good bite, but both jaws may be set back...

My sleep medicine specialist is recommending MMA (double jaw advancement surgery) and the cool thing is that my insurance might be able to pay for it all. But I want to see if MSE + FM is possible for me. I know for a fact I am in need of anter-posterior advancement for both my jaws. Check my photos out at this post on this forum here.

My lower jaw may need to be expanded by the bone via mandibular symphyseal distraction osteogenesis if orthodontic treatment can't correct my bite post-MSE since my upper arch's IMW will express a great difference to my lower arch's IMW.

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Posted : 24/04/2019 2:52 pm
Melius
Active Member

@drmario I see, I don't have much time to share my thoughts but perhaps see someone who provides MSE. Where are you located? 

-Melius

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Posted : 24/04/2019 5:28 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Update guys, no more facemask she said never on class 2 paitents she would give..there is a 8mm she approximated discrepancy between my upper and lower jaw

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/05/2019 1:43 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

What should I do guys? Facemask is key

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:06 pm
bundfalke
Trusted Member

Facemasks are cheap. Just get one yourself

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:09 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

I would get DNA! Does a real counter-rotation (also remodels palate for midface shortening). DNA with splints allow for mandible but to advance. I don’t know what you look like, but most class 2 with long midface and clockwise rotation just need DNA with acrylic by Vivos practitioner.

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:19 pm
Sceriff liked
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Or you can wait a few years for Invisalign’s light-based treatments. They are targeting short mandibles and all kind of bone/teeth manipulation.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/05/2019 2:21 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

*mandible bite to advance...*

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:22 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

MSE doesn’t shorten midface hardly. Reshaping like Vivos and Sue Lee (even braces... even smile direct club widening) does. Adding surface area to the palate means that now you have a palate with less chance of lowering through reshaping to normal the deformities. Unless the deformity is a palate that has inadequate surface area.

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:25 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

*lowering vault*

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:26 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Hi, Dark indigo thank you for response how many MM of expansion can you get with DNA? can you attach a facemask?

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:28 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

The only time MSE makes sense is for highly constricted arches on someone with appropriate midface length. Doing a palatal reshaping just would drop the palate too low and make airway through mouth/tongue area too small.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/05/2019 2:29 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Can I pm you pics dark indigo?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/05/2019 2:31 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Sure thing! For some reason I cannot send PMs to people I haven’t before. It’s super weird, because for some reason @TGW the drop down selection of names to send to doesn’t appear. Typing in directly won’t send, since you have to select the recipient from the drop down. I am on mobile and haven’t checked desktop, but expect the same.

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:38 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

I believe you can attach facemask. You don’t want the typical reverse-pull ones with counterpressure on the forehead and chin. You’d need a McNamara design. Also, I wouldn’t do the bow, because it a shot in the dark...no real results I’ve seen and causes neck strain, can’t sleep with it in, they pulled random photos off the web for their before/after photos. It is not a medical device and super speculative to replace bimax. I like how they’re thinking, but your counter-pressure matters. The McNamara facemask has counter-pressure on upper cheekbones. Dr. Jim McNamara is pretty awesome. I would possibly look into that design. If cheeks are flat, I might just use a hockey mask. LOL

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/05/2019 2:47 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

I’m a total cheapskate. If I needed to advance my mandible... it obviously would need to be done on a case-basis how to treat... but I don’t think I’d spend more than $5.

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Posted : 02/05/2019 2:48 pm
Melius
Active Member

@neverrelaxed Hey man do you think your ortho would take me on for MSE + Face Mask (I’m a Class III). I don’t want to waste funds flying to just get rejected. I just went to California to get my consultation and the ortho recommended surgery, but said IF I did MSE with him, he would’t use a Face Mask but would instead bring using TADs, bring my lower jaw back :/

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Posted : 02/05/2019 6:55 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

I def can, did you try to explain why you don't lower jaw back?

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Posted : 02/05/2019 7:31 pm
Melius
Active Member

Yes; he believes my class iii is far too severe for face mask to be able to protract my maxilla enough.
I’d need about a whole tooth’s worth of protraction and he said in adults, MSE plus facemask produces results but he’s not sure it’d produce that much results and thinks it’d be a waste. SO he wanted to extract my wisdom teeth (which are perfectly erupted) and use tads to slightly bring my upper jaw forward, and slightly bring my lower jaw back.

Obviously this wouldn’t do ANYTHING for my midfacial development, and man, the maxillary and zygomatic complex improvements in MSE with face mask are impressive, even in adults.

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Posted : 02/05/2019 8:20 pm
Melius
Active Member

Also, do any of you know more info on that Quebec doctor who wrote about doing MSE and mandibular expansion? He seems way more “based” on this sort of stuff, just looking at his slideshow

https://www.sylvainchamberland.com/en/blog/expansion-mandibulaire-symphysaire-par-osteodistraction/?fbclid=IwAR1IKf4lwfKfcKoZGZutcf1lLiOJsMQpzTmssaVhITTfIY20uQEiK83foGM

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/05/2019 8:30 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

He seems good looking at that slideshow as well trying to find MSDO providers in the east coast if possible after MSE, and would you want to double jaw post MSE+FM? MSE+FM if you keep your sutures open long enough I believe 1mm per week, how many mm you need?

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Posted : 02/05/2019 8:50 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

My ortho told me she can help complete double jaw post mse, however I am going my own route post mse which is MSDO followed by a lefort and BSSO

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Posted : 02/05/2019 8:53 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Just reached out to Dr. Sylvain Chamberland about MDSO

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Posted : 02/05/2019 9:03 pm
Melius
Active Member

Hold on I’m getting a bit confused about your case tbh. Can you tell me exactly what your current problems are, what you think will be addressed by MSE, and then what you plan on doing afterwards and what you think that will accomplish?

I’ll do the same:

Problems:
•Underbite (not sure how many mms would be needed of protraction) due to backwards maxilla
•upper arch IMW is about 37 and lower is about 39
•Airway issues due to both of the above
•Overall lack of midfacial development (midface, cheekbones, etc.) also due to the first two problems
•lower Midline to the side (whole lower jaw/chin is slightly off center)
•both upper and lower jaws slightly canted.
•SLIGHT Gummy smile

Procedure: MSE + Lower arch expansion
Addresses: Narrow IMW, midfacial width, airway
•Definitely doable: widen my upper arch so it’s 4 mm wider than lower (that’s what’s recommended)= 6mm expansion
•HOWEVER I’d love to max out the expansion and get High 40’s range IMW, but to do that, I’d need to expand 12 mms, and that would leave my upper arch 10 mm wider than lower, far too wide for perfect occlusion. To address this I’d look for an appliance to expand my lower IMW by around 6 mm. I’m VERY interested in mandibular distraction but in all honesty for my case I think an appliance like DNA or trombone would be able to expand 6 mm lower arch.

Procedure: Face Mask when done with MSE
Addresses: Underbite, lack of midfacial and zygomatic forward growth (slightly), airway
•Not sure how much I’d need to protract for a perfect bite, and according to my first consultation it’s *probably* too much for face mask to fix on it’s own.
•HOWEVER, any amount protraction based on bone-anchored Face Mask will produce better aesthetics than the same amount from a simple Lefort, since the whole midface including cheekbones can be advanced. Even a few MMs create a big difference.

POTENTIAL PROCEDURE: BSSO and Maxillary Impaction
Addresses: Canted Jaws, Asymmetric Midline, Gummy Smile
•Perhaps some of these things (like the midline) can be fixed through MSE and lower expansion, however, the others are probably only fixable through these surgeries.

POTENTIAL PROCEDURE: Lefort (not sure which?)
Addresses: Any maxillary protraction I still need after MSE + Face Mask
•I really really hope I can avoid this, but if after face mask my maxilla is still slightly too far back, I will need it :/

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Posted : 02/05/2019 9:38 pm
Melius
Active Member

If I could somehow get all of the things listed above, I genuinely would in a heartbeat, the functional AND aesthetic improvement to my face and skull would be monumental I feel.

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Posted : 02/05/2019 9:41 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Guys if you need lower arch expansion via MDSO I would focus on that first then upper via MSE, I am learning this the hard way possibly, consult wednesday with Dr. Chamberline any q's

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Posted : 03/05/2019 11:50 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member
Posted by: darkindigo

I believe you can attach facemask. You don’t want the typical reverse-pull ones with counterpressure on the forehead and chin. You’d need a McNamara design. Also, I wouldn’t do the bow, because it a shot in the dark...no real results I’ve seen and causes neck strain, can’t sleep with it in, they pulled random photos off the web for their before/after photos. It is not a medical device and super speculative to replace bimax. I like how they’re thinking, but your counter-pressure matters. The McNamara facemask has counter-pressure on upper cheekbones. Dr. Jim McNamara is pretty awesome. I would possibly look into that design. If cheeks are flat, I might just use a hockey mask. LOL

What exact type of McNamara design would you recommend? Am only finding the one with counterpressure on the chin which will push back the mandible, what do you mean if the cheeks are flat use a hockey mask ..many thanks

 
ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2019 2:37 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

search  grummons face mask. i think that thats what he means. 

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Posted : 16/05/2019 4:36 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member

@neverrelaxed can i pm you? or here if you don't mind me asking. i wanted to know how you got the mse shipped to you? just the overall process you went through and who you contacted. i have a class 3 and never realized it until now due to bad posture and trying to correct it led me to feeling uncomfortable as hell with my bite.. definitely need some good expansion..thx in advance

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Posted : 16/05/2019 4:43 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Sure man and with Grummons facemask can you adjust vector of pull do you know?

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Posted : 17/05/2019 2:52 pm
NoctilucentNikki
Eminent Member

@neverrelaxed How is it going?

Did you get the MSE installed? How was that experience? Did you have a specific thread for you experience?

 

I'm calling my ortho on Monday to say OK go, let's order it! I'm a'scarredd of the screws but really am ready to breathe. 

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Posted : 01/06/2019 7:43 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

I saw your case, mse and facemask will definitely help you don't fear the procedure is easy you sneeze and tickles your nose thats it, any questions feel free to pm me

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Posted : 01/06/2019 8:01 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: darkindigo

Or you can wait a few years for Invisalign’s light-based treatments. They are targeting short mandibles and all kind of bone/teeth manipulation.

Hi there, I’m curious, when you recommend and speak of this future invisialign devic, and the DNA, do you speak with adults in mind? Like is the information you’ve given above for growing the mandible applicable to adults? If so, this would be big. I’ve always wondered why more otrthos wouldn’t utilize light  therapy

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Posted : 02/06/2019 9:24 pm
UCLAnewbie
Active Member
Posted by: neverrelaxed

Update guys, no more facemask she said never on class 2 paitents she would give..there is a 8mm she approximated discrepancy between my upper and lower jaw

A literal orthodontist and professional who is experienced with the MSE told you that your case IS NOT suited for the facemask. Listen to her. It is for CLASS 3 patients.

If you install a face-mask, you will [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up your face, regardless with a DNA or FAGGA appliance or not.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 9:40 pm
GoTTi
Trusted Member
Posted by: UCLAnewbie
Posted by: neverrelaxed

Update guys, no more facemask she said never on class 2 paitents she would give..there is a 8mm she approximated discrepancy between my upper and lower jaw

A literal orthodontist and professional who is experienced with the MSE told you that your case IS NOT suited for the facemask. Listen to her. It is for CLASS 3 patients.

If you install a face-mask, you will [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up your face, regardless with a DNA or FAGGA appliance or not.

Do you have any proof that hooking a FM to an MSE appliance will ruin somebody’s face? Any case studies you can show?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 02/06/2019 11:11 pm
Roflcopters
Trusted Member
Posted by: GoTTi
Posted by: UCLAnewbie
Posted by: neverrelaxed

Update guys, no more facemask she said never on class 2 paitents she would give..there is a 8mm she approximated discrepancy between my upper and lower jaw

A literal orthodontist and professional who is experienced with the MSE told you that your case IS NOT suited for the facemask. Listen to her. It is for CLASS 3 patients.

If you install a face-mask, you will [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] up your face, regardless with a DNA or FAGGA appliance or not.

Do you have any proof that hooking a FM to an MSE appliance will ruin somebody’s face? Any case studies you can show?

It's not the point. Half of what we say here isn't backed up by anything. It's discussion. Troll or not this is public. 

@neverrelaxed invest on your body posture, especially cervical posture. Stand up str8 for a week and see if you can bite comfortably. Cervical posture drives your mandible forward. If you can comfortably stay in a class 1 on a good cervical posture or if you still have an overjet while standing up straight biting at your molars, just practice good oral posture and rethink your treatment. 

If he's skeletally stable, ie no head tilts, no forward posture, no crossbites, class 3, no tmj issues,nothing that's messing with his occlusal plane, if he can bite comfortably at the molar level and he's in fact a class 2/1, he doesn't need a facemask. He just said he's got an 8mm over jet. The problem and focus would be the lower jaw. Granted the mandible is mobile but if he lacks growth there expanding the upper arch won't magically expand the bottom. It's not like the mandible can move anywhere, there's a natural position to it that's efficient on airway and body posture and that's where it should sit. 

Then again, I haven't seen any pics.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 03/06/2019 5:15 am
neverrelaxed
Active Member

Great post rolfcopters thanks

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Posted : 04/06/2019 1:28 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

@ulcanewbie

I DIDN'T ASK FOR OPINION HEAR ME!! 🤬  GET OFF MY THREAD

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/06/2019 1:29 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member
Posted by: neverrelaxed

Hello,

 

I am beginning my MSE+facemask journey due to @varbrah  @futuremalemodel , starting at 38 intermolar, will keep this updated, will be using bone remodeling tools during the journey, looking for 12mm of expansion and as much protraction as humanly possible

 

currently a class 2 getting bsso post 9 months

Before and after pics please! Which doctor are you visiting?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 04/06/2019 4:01 pm
neverrelaxed
Active Member

I will give good updates with pic promise, what happens if you overexpand your upper jaw? ortho wants to stop treatment at like 3mm ,

ReplyQuote
Posted : 06/06/2019 4:57 pm
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