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Intermolar width - is this even possible?  

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Liquidlips1
Active Member

Background - I’ve been mewing since around March time. At times I’ve considered it ‘hard mewing’ but it seems that whenever I think I’ve been doing it properly, I hear something or do something different and then think ‘oh THIS is doing it properly’. 

Only last night I tried a proper chin tuck for more than  moment and started to understand what people mean when they talk about blocking the airway and it only now feels like I might be starting to get this. 

So anyway, thinking that I have been wasting my time so far I decided to remeasure my IMW which I did a month ago. Strongly expected to have zero change given that it’s been hardly any time (plus I’ve not felt the force I’ve been applying has been that strong, and have yet to manage sleep mewing) but my IMW seems to have increased from 41mn to 45mm! Is that even possible? Is there any way to double check my measurements? I made the measurements on cardboard and was less diligent at tracing the outer edges of my teeth but to double check against the two I looked at the outer edges and there seems to be at least 2-3mm genuine difference. Yet I havent felt anything close to the sutures opening, or even like the force I can apply could even do anything like that. Oh, and I’m nearly 40 years old. Any thoughts? 

I love mewing by the way, and even if this is inaccuracy of measurement (though I don’t see how) and I achieve no bone change whatsoever it’s had a massive effect on my life and face just in teaching me and my muscles to hold my lips together. Seems so simple but such a vast improvement.  Even my husband who has been laughing at me from the start has grudgingly admitted my jaw looks stronger 🙂

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Posted : 28/06/2019 8:55 am
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harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member

It would be interesting to see photos of the cardboard where you made your measurements. As it was only last night you started doing the chin tuck which is a very good habit, I strongly doubt that you could get 2-3 mm of expansion overnight however in a month it can be possible as certain expanders can expand the maxilla 1mm a week. You are very close to the ideal intermolar width of 50mm which makes tongue posture easier and may create more force. I am currently at 33mm but haven’t had any expansion however I have been on and off mewing for 2 months at 17 years old. I have ordered falim gum and it will arrive tomorrow so I will fully commit to mewing.

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Posted : 28/06/2019 9:10 am
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Liquidlips1
Active Member

Ignore the triangles

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Posted : 28/06/2019 9:28 am
Liquidlips1
Active Member

PS I don’t even know even I’m measuring at about the right place - but any increase anywhere would be good right? Can’t remember how I decided last time but  drew the across line this time at the same distance below the front teeth impressions as last time 

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Posted : 28/06/2019 9:32 am
Loliboly
Estimable Member

@Liquidlips1
As long as you measure from the same points, I guess it should be fine. I think it is somewhat hard to tell from the cardboards, but it seems like it is accurate. As hard as it would be to believe, if you really have been expanding that much it is fantastic news. At least for you and possibly for us other adult mewers. Since you said your jaw has increased, would you be willing to post before and afters, if you have? In any case, thanks for sharing your progress!

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Posted : 28/06/2019 10:01 am
Liquidlips1
Active Member

To be fair I think my jaw is better defined because of gum chewing and some exercises and learning to hold my lips in a completely different way to previously. Probably totally muscular -but that alone can  make quite a difference.  I don’t have any specific before shots but I’ll have s look later and see if there’s any that would be fit for a comparison. 

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Posted : 28/06/2019 12:11 pm
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Silberman
Active Member

It is possible. 

 

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Posted : 28/06/2019 12:40 pm
skinnyboiii
Active Member

The jaw looking better could be from a number of things: better posture, better engagement of the muscles beneath the jaw, etc.

But about the teeth: it's interesting. I can't say it's impossible, but 1mm/wk just seems... kind of extraordinary. I would wonder if maybe measurement error is at play. You know what they say, "when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras." But who knows, this could be a zebra moment.

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Posted : 28/06/2019 6:36 pm
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Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

Have you tried measuring again? It looks like your teeth have got narrower in the second which is both improbable and undesirable. Mewing progress in IMW is often uneven over time, but even in my faster periods of expansion zi have not achieved half this rate.

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Posted : 28/06/2019 6:45 pm
Liquidlips1
Active Member

I already did it twice yesterday before I posted because I didn't believe it first time. But I've measured again this morning and get exactly the same size (and reasssuringly, outline shape). I'm confident I can measure now in a way that can be replicated, and will be interested to see future months. . But all I can think is that my first go a month ago was somehow inaccurate. I have tried measuring along different points of the initial impression and can get 42mm nearer the back teeth at a push. In the two new ones 45mm is as wide as it gets. 

(BTW does anyone know, is IMW supposed to be the widest point? I know you're supposed to measure at first molar but by doing it this way, with impressions on cardboard, it's very hard to judge exactly where the teeth are placed. I've just tried to be consistent across them. ) 

 

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Posted : 29/06/2019 4:01 am
harrykanemaxilla
Estimable Member
Posted by: Liquidlips1

I already did it twice yesterday before I posted because I didn't believe it first time. But I've measured again this morning and get exactly the same size (and reasssuringly, outline shape). I'm confident I can measure now in a way that can be replicated, and will be interested to see future months. . But all I can think is that my first go a month ago was somehow inaccurate. I have tried measuring along different points of the initial impression and can get 42mm nearer the back teeth at a push. In the two new ones 45mm is as wide as it gets. 

(BTW does anyone know, is IMW supposed to be the widest point? I know you're supposed to measure at first molar but by doing it this way, with impressions on cardboard, it's very hard to judge exactly where the teeth are placed. I've just tried to be consistent across them. ) 

 

You can buy special tools to measure your IMW. I have a retainer that I got a month ago so I measured that. IMW is supposed to be measured by the middle point of the first molar.

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Posted : 29/06/2019 4:51 am
Odys
 Odys
Trusted Member

I always understood that the measurement should be the narrowest point between the first molars. But I don’t think matters. We are not trying to achieve a single measurement that is correct for all people. People reach a point that is satisfactory in terms of housing the tongue and otherwise at very different IMWs. It sounds as if your replicable measurement is fine for measuring progress which is what I think it is for. I think you may also be encouraged that you are making progress. I have after making progress gone through periods of no growth in IMW when my tongue tells me things are expanding generally in my mouth. Take the boost when IMW measurements offer it. Do not be disheartened when it doesn’t. I let my tongue be my arbiter of progress.

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Posted : 29/06/2019 5:24 am
Liquidlips1
Active Member

I'm leaning towards thinking it must be an error. I just don't know how. I know I was diligent in my first measurements; I did it more than once (I first read on here how to take impressions, tried to do so from memory, then referred back to it, did a couple on different cardboard before I decided which was good enough etc). I can't remember if I measured more than once - probably - but I definitely didn't go away thinking I'd been particularly conservative in my first measures - if anything I was pleased to be in the 40s at all- having had extractions, recession etc I thought I might be narrow.   Supporting the increase, I've also been told that I have strong muscles which I'm sure helps this process, and know I have a large tongue.  However, I just don't think that sort of change could have happened without me feeling it physically. I have of course felt various pressures in my mouth at varying points in the mewing process - sometimes even akin to the feeling of wearing braces - but then only a handful of times and not constantly like with braces, and I've hardly been doing this long. I would have thought expanding a palate is a lot harder than realigning teeth but I have no idea? 

I can't find any photos to display the - definitely muscular - changes that have definitely taken place. Any 'before' pictures are all with open lips because I never used to close my mouth because I'd get a weird-looking dimpled chin thing. So the 'afters' just look like the same person just with a different facial expression, not showing that I couldn't have comfortably done closed lips before.   

 

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Posted : 30/06/2019 9:45 am
skinnyboiii
Active Member

Cool. It's good to be skeptical within reason, and I think you're right to call your first measurements into doubt. I've taught a lot of lab classes full of engineers and even these smart fellows make measurement mistakes on their first go-around.

I think a lot of us are optimists here, but with science, the tortoise always beats the hare. Let's see how you do over the next few months. Definitely continue to update.

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Posted : 30/06/2019 11:57 pm
Liquidlips1
Active Member

Yes - optimism and skepticism are good qualities to balance. I will continue to measure and report back in a month or two either way. 

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Posted : 01/07/2019 8:49 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Do you feel much more space on the palate? That would help in confirming

I know I'm seeing expansion because I put my index and middle finder together between my molars. Before, they had little space to cross, now they cross much more easily and don't even touch the molars so much anymore

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Posted : 01/07/2019 10:33 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

If the distance between the first molars increases, shouldn't the distance between premolars follow the same pattern, too?

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Posted : 02/07/2019 5:12 am
tonguecel
Active Member

impossible. a few millimetres is such a small amount that its easy to mess up the measurement

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Posted : 06/07/2019 12:23 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Don't clench into paper.  Buy broccoli and use the stems to take impressions.

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Posted : 09/07/2019 11:44 am
justdoit
Active Member

I took the picture of your impressions. I then tried my best to select the dark lines you traced and the written text from both impressions, colored the before one red and the after one green; then superimposed them on top of each other. Here's the result -

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Posted : 10/07/2019 6:49 pm
Liquidlips1
Active Member

Thanks for that! Interesting. I’m  trying to work out what this shows. Overlaid the width line looks almost identical but I’ve measured them several times and know they are the length I say they are. When I compared the two visually it looked like I’d gained width on the wider side but looking at this, if there is any increase it looks like it’s on the narrower side, moving towards symmetry. And as someone else pointed out, there’s definitely some inaccuracy in my measures as it looks like the teeth have got narrower, which clearly wouldn’t be the case. Will be interested to redo in a month or two. 

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Posted : 11/07/2019 4:14 am