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I just made it to 39mm inter molar width and it's awsome!  

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Abdulrahman
Reputable Member

39mm inter molar width is so awesome, it's a world apart from were I started at 34mm. It' amazing what 5mm (4.4mm to be exact) difference can make. Everything is so much straight forward and simple. Keeping my tongue on the roof of mouth is straight forward. Swallowing properly, while can be tricky, is achievable now. Tongue chewing also no problem.

I can understand why people struggle so much with a narrow palate and report very little progress. When I started mewing before installing braces it was so hard. Everything was confusing and challenging. It felt like I had to use so much force to get any feedback.

Fast forward to nine months of braces and I had only achieved 1.4mm expansion but my dental arch developed a uniform layout and teeth angulation corrected. My overjet closed and deep bite was gone. Nonetheless I still struggled with mewing.

The next 3 month I used a small acrylic expander and that is when things got going. Every month I expanded 1mm. Funny enough no matter how many or few turn I made to the expander screw it seemed I was capped at that rate. Nonetheless, this is when I really experienced the difference.

Everything became so much easier. This was all happening in conjunction with my physiotherapy routine. I have been working on my general body posture and especially forward head posture for over 1.5 years now. The results are good so far, I dropped from 10cm of forward head posture to 4cm.

I had few indirect benefits as well. My zygomatic arches have expanded. I actually now have an slight ogee curve. Prior to expansion with the expander it was a just smooth contour. My nostrils expanded as well. I can feel it as allergies are not blocking my airway as bad as before. Yesterday I saw my ENT doctor and he told he can insert the scope in my nose very easily.

Overall, I can say this experiment has been good, but I still got some way to go. The advice I can give to anyone who is over 25, has a narrow arch (under 36mm), and have not had any success after mewing for few months is to consider getting treatment. ALF is a good place to start and the hybrid appliance is even better if you are at 35mm and above.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 01/10/2018 10:01 am
Kyte, Apollo, Tatsumi and 3 people liked
Slinky
Trusted Member

Great work man. I hope i can expand upto 42+mm via tongue only. I cant precisely measure my IMW but it always comes in between 38-40 mm

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Posted : 01/10/2018 11:31 am
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Could you share your age please?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 01/10/2018 11:33 am
Progress
Member Moderator

Good job Abdul. Your arch got so much more symmetrical too. From around this point on your expansion will possibly accelerate. I hit 42 mm only two weeks after reaching 40 mm and it seems that I have widened an additional millimeter since then. As Mew suggests (and as you found out), 38-40 really seems to be where the magic starts to happen.

Are you going to keep using expander? Also, how do you measure the extent of forward head posture?

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Posted : 01/10/2018 11:49 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Slinky

Great work man. I hope i can expand upto 42+mm via tongue only. I cant precisely measure my IMW but it always comes in between 38-40 mm

Thanks, I am starting to develop a better understanding why people are not able to achieve any gains. The official response is that it's because they can't get their tongue high enough because it's not strong or they are not putting the effort, but I question that.

 

Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Could you share your age please?

Certainly, 35 years old.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 01/10/2018 11:50 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Progress

Good job Abdul. Your arch got so much more symmetrical too. From around this point on your expansion will possibly accelerate. I hit 42 mm only two weeks after reaching 40 mm and it seems that I have widened an additional millimeter since then. As Mew suggests (and as you found out), 38-40 really seems to be where the magic starts to happen.

Are you going to keep using expander? Also, how do you measure the extent of forward head posture?

Thanks, the dental layout has improved, but the bone structure is still asymmetrical I suspect. It's recessed on my right side which is the side where I have the scoliosis and lower shoulder. I am working on improving my scoliosis, it's mild but not easy to tackle.

I will continue to use the expander right now as a retainer, I still have the braces on too. The lower teeth have not expanded as fast as the upper ones (obviously no expander for lower) so I am getting an expander wire installed on the inside of the arch to speed up the process. Its works exactly the same way the ALF does.

Once the lower has picked up paste I can consider restarting expansion on the upper but sloooowly to keep the relation between the upper and lower in spec. Having my bite messed doe the past 3 months has caused my facial muscles on the left side to hypertrophy. This is because the muscles have to exert more effort to close the bite especially while swallowing.

Regarding measuring forward head posture, there are several clinical methods to do that. They are all complicated and some require an xray. I developed a very simple method that I think is very accurate.

Basically I stand fully relaxed against a wall with my heels, pelvic, and upper back pressed against it as much as possible without exerting any effort. Then I have someone insert an object with a set size between the back of my head and the wall to measure the distance. If it's too short I have him replace it with a longer object and if too long with a short one, then measure the object. 

Now I don't think I will surprise you by saying the best object for this is the hand. Just have it inserted width wise in that space and close or open as many fingers as you need to get a fit. Then measure the width of the number of fingers inserted behind your head. Key of curse, is to do it while full relaxed. That is why I suggest someone doing it for you so you don't jerk your head like so many people do when taking side selfies to share on the forum. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 01/10/2018 12:09 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

35 yo, very impressive. What is your method of mewing? What are you doing exactly? For how long? Can you please write in detail?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 01/10/2018 12:19 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

35 yo, very impressive. What is your method of mewing? What are you doing exactly? For how long? Can you please write in detail?

I just want to make sure you are aware most of my expansion is due to the braces and expander. That being said I have been mewing for 14 months and have refined my method over this time period  and continue to do so. Reaching 39mm inter molar width has given me new perspective on mewing.

The things I do are:

Posture the tongue on the roof of the mouth but I do not try to push up the posterior third hard

Swallow correctly by engaging the tongue sweep as much as I can, I think I get it right 25% of the time. Note, before having a meal I always try my best to do a quick round of forward head posture correction stretches and exercises just so my head can stay in correct position throughout the meal.

Keep my mouth closed and teeth slightly touching. Unlike most I use a normal pillow to prop my head while sleeping. I find it helps me relax while sleeping and helps my lower jaw stay close to the upper without having to tuck or anything. 

Breath through my nose and try to keep my allergies always in check before they flare up.

Chew tough Falim gum with closed mouth everyday for 45 minutes.

Practice tongue chewing or push ups for another 15 minutes or so with the same gum I was chewing.

I try to do all of this gently and with fine control. I can go on and on about this part but I am still learning and experimenting.

In addition to this I work on correcting my overall posture including forward head posture, forward pelvic tilt, pronated feet, and rounded shoulders. All of those conditions have improved allot, some have dropped from sever down to mild and some were completely fixed like thoracic kyphosis.

If you are interested you can read some of my recent posts on this topic for more information. They repeat some points I make here and expand on some other points:

https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/hard-mewing-might-be-very-useful/#post-7537
https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/hard-mewing-might-be-very-useful/#post-7556
https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/light-forces/#post-8291

 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 01/10/2018 1:36 pm
Le_Fort_or_Bust
Trusted Member

Don't you just have teeth tilting with braces? Everyone keeps saying that if you expand as adult with braces you just get tilted teeth. Yet you are saying you got maxilla expansion. Whom to believe?

30 yo, need to expand palate, move maxilla upward and forward, reduce gonial angle.

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Posted : 01/10/2018 1:42 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Don't you just have teeth tilting with braces? Everyone keeps saying that if you expand as adult with braces you just get tilted teeth. Yet you are saying you got maxilla expansion. Whom to believe?

That's what most orthodontists say including my doctor who I had to drag into this treatment. Look at the after picture, do you notice any tipping outward? None. In fact, the tipping is visible on the before picture, except it's inward tipping. It might not be very noticeable from this angle but see below how all the top teeth were tipped inward before treatment. 

I had so many discussions with my current orthodontist and 3 others and all of them recurrently agreed that I had inward tipping that could be corrected and that my maxilla was wide enough to accommodate some dental movement. But they all tried to doubt the lower jaw would cooperate. Thankfully it is, just a little slower than the top for the obvious reason that there is no expander on it.

Big part of why this is working is because my lower jaw has moved forward closing the overjet I had. None of them thought that would be possible, but it happened. That probably due to a combination of reasons including forward head correction and the expansion of the upper arch.

Also, I chew allot and posture my tongue. The first helps with uprighting the teeth and the second helps in pushing the lower jaw forward. All the orthodontists I spoke to never factored any of those things because they are used to patients coming for braces only and doing nothing on their own. If the effort is made I think most people can have an inter molar width in the range of 38 to 42mm.

One note before departing, my expansion is part dental movement part skeletal expansion.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 01/10/2018 2:13 pm
EddieMoney
Reputable Member
Posted by: Le_Fort_or_Bust

Don't you just have teeth tilting with braces? Everyone keeps saying that if you expand as adult with braces you just get tilted teeth. Yet you are saying you got maxilla expansion. Whom to believe?

If  you see his pics with the intermolar measurements you will see the increase in width of the actual bone though. 

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Posted : 01/10/2018 3:59 pm
Greensmoothies
Estimable Member

Good work! Everyone is different but I  found that swallowing correctly became an ingrained habit at 42 imw. That's also around when I noticed I could have correct body, tongue and neck posture without thinking about it. Also there are a few people here including myself that had an easy time going from the late 30s to mid 40s with no appliance. I was 35 at the time and it took about 7 months.

Remember this pain... and let it activate you.

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Posted : 01/10/2018 4:48 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Greensmoothies

Good work! Everyone is different but I  found that swallowing correctly became an ingrained habit at 42 imw. That's also around when I noticed I could have correct body, tongue and neck posture without thinking about it. Also there are a few people here including myself that had an easy time going from the late 30s to mid 40s with no appliance. I was 35 at the time and it took about 7 months.

Yes, I can imagine 42mm being ideal for comfortable swallowing, as the tongue expands few mm on each side when pressed against the palate. I suppose some patients of Dr. Mew who drop to 38mm after being expanded to 44mm never develop a proper swallow and thus are not able to retain that much expansion.  

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 01/10/2018 10:18 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: darkindigo

Unreal!!!!!  I saw a video from Dr. Mew who said they circled back with prior patients who had palatal expansion.  The ones over 37/38/39 - somewhere in there - maintained over the years.  Patients higher than that actually had their arches continue to expand... not sure that's a great idea, since you'll end up with gaps in teeth.  That final arch looks beautiful!!!!!  Less than progressively lessened over the years.  Anyway, I will probably let you find it if interested... assuming it isn't shut down.  See the new thread I'm starting on the Mew video controversy.

Thanks, I know the video you are referring to. There are two actually that cover this topic. One is about skeletal expansion and the other about measuring inter molar width and expansion goals.

Dr. Mike Mew expands his patients to 44mm for a simple reason, he needs space to fit the retainer/trainer afterwards without obstructing the tongue from resting on the palate. So he over expands even if that causes outward tipping.

Once the retainer/trainer is removed after 1-2 years, patients usually experience a relapse. If they maintain an inter molar width at or above 38mm their treatment is considered a success.

I am considering continuing expansion because I have braces as well which can help me control the gaps. However, if teeth start tipping outward I know I have reached the limit and must stop. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 02/10/2018 5:21 am
Apollo
Reputable Member

Congratulations on your progress Abdulrahman! The comparison of your dental casts is very dramatic. My experience has been similar to yours. We are about the same age. I started with an intermolar width of around 34mm and I expanded to a little over 39mm using a removable acrylic expander. I agree that the difference in tongue space is remarkable. I don't have before and after dental casts to compare like yours. Intraoral photos of my upper arch show a similar improvement in shape, but I still have a slight occlusal cant.

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Posted : 02/10/2018 8:50 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Apollo

Congratulations on your progress Abdulrahman! The comparison of your dental casts is very dramatic. My experience has been similar to yours. We are about the same age. I started with an intermolar width of around 34mm and I expanded to a little over 39mm using a removable acrylic expander. I agree that the difference in tongue space is remarkable. I don't have before and after dental casts to compare like yours. Intraoral photos of my upper arch show a similar improvement in shape, but I still have a slight occlusal cant.

Thanks Apollo. What was your rate of expansion? I expanded 1mm per month, no matter how few or many turns I made. Did you experience the same rate? 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 02/10/2018 11:42 pm
Apollo
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman

Thanks Apollo. What was your rate of expansion? I expanded 1mm per month, no matter how few or many turns I made. Did you experience the same rate?

I advanced my expander screw one 1/4mm turn every 2 to 5 days depending how tight it felt. The screw in my expander was placed a little crooked (compared to my occlusal plan) so that some of the separation between the two halves didn't contribute to lateral displacement such that I got only about 6mm of increased intermolar width despite separating the two halves of the expander by about 7mm. I had one setback when I developed an ulcer on my mucosa and had to stop using the expander for about a week (I think) and wind it back a few turns when I resumed. In total, it took me a few days less than 5 months to complete about 6mm of expansion, so just a little faster than your 1mm per month.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 12:12 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

Abdul we had very similar bites my in the same its a deep bite and its retroclined and over laps the teeth but i have a wide palate so just to double check you expanded the upper front arch with an expander then the lower jaw moved forward correct?

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Posted : 03/10/2018 12:57 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Rockyp33

Abdul we had very similar bites my in the same its a deep bite and its retroclined and over laps the teeth but i have a wide palate so just to double check you expanded the upper front arch with an expander then the lower jaw moved forward correct?

Yes, that is what my doctor thinks, but my lower jaw moved forward only after 6 months into the braces phase. That's 3 months before using the expander. 

I think there is another reason, the reduction of my forward head posture.

 

Posted by: Apollo

I advanced my expander screw one 1/4mm turn every 2 to 5 days depending how tight it felt. The screw in my expander was placed a little crooked (compared to my occlusal plan) so that some of the separation between the two halves didn't contribute to lateral displacement such that I got only about 6mm of increased intermolar width despite separating the two halves of the expander by about 7mm. I had one setback when I developed an ulcer on my mucosa and had to stop using the expander for about a week (I think) and wind it back a few turns when I resumed. In total, it took me a few days less than 5 months to complete about 6mm of expansion, so just a little faster than your 1mm per month.

Thanks, I was worried my slow rate would never produce any meaningful skeletal change compared to the rapid rate. Judging from your results and mine the slow rate is effective and probably safer.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 03/10/2018 1:23 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

cause i plan on getting an expander but i dont want the braces because i know there not good according to people here. do you think you gained forward movement of the mandible from the expander? i would imagine it would help as much as the braces or even more

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Posted : 03/10/2018 2:19 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Rockyp33

cause i plan on getting an expander but i dont want the braces because i know there not good according to people here. do you think you gained forward movement of the mandible from the expander? i would imagine it would help as much as the braces or even more

No, I gained forward movement in my mandible from the first 6 months of braces. The expander increased my expansion allot but I had already fixed the overjet issue by then.

Braces are not bad, it's just people associate them with bad treatments they had in the past. They have their use, but if your bite is good and you only need to expand there is no need for them. 

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 03/10/2018 2:43 pm
SUGR1
Active Member

Good job, 

This clearly shows that good orthodontists is simply that.... good!

even more pertinent in this case because our friend here had bad orthodontic treatment previously. 

Just giving my thoughts on the case. 

- Apart from IMW the canine and premolars has also improved. We focus a lot on IMW but these are also just as important in a lot of people. You will find adults with poor swallowing patterns who may have 42mm IMW but very narrow tappered arch’s because their anterior 2/3 of tongue never met the palate. 

- still some asymmetry on arch but it will improve with time and other postural changes. More importantly as you progress through the wires and go to finishing wires you will level and balance out occlusion which will also improve the symmetry. 

- limiting rate of ‘expansion’ in post puberscent. Firstly hate the word expansion.... typically relates to the concept of growth at suture or breaking open a suture.  We are actually trying to achieve Distraction Osteogenesis where by we get bone remodelling changes.  This is very important because let’s compare some concepts. 

Rapid maxillary expansion is a concept to break open suture of the maxilla. This is painful and always results in relapse due to scar formation. Also this fails to remodel the palate downwards so you will still have a high vault. 

Slow expansion (rate 1mm/month) will cause the remodeling effect without affecting the suture. The biggest benefits are minimal to no relaps, and the palate Will remodel to flatten. This is significant to tongue suction ability... and nasal breathing and latency. This is why you will hear a lot of experienced practitioners say they hate the removable acrylic expanders.... because it sits on the palate and even with slow expansion it does not allow the palate to drop down. 

Your teeth WILL tip if you excess your adult distraction osteogenesis rate of approx 1mm/month.  That is why different people will have so called diff results due to rate of turning. slower turning is never wrong but takes more time. 

- Mandibular traction forward. In adults of all ages the body of mandible can not Change side or widen. What you can do is develop the alveolar process by uprighting the molars. This will usually result in significant width changes. However up until your death bed the Condyle of the mandible is a growth centre. That is why in adults it is still possible to use a functional appliance to bring the mandible forward (gradually) to follow the maxilla development. Where people get mixed results is due to the fact this must be accompanied by correct breathing and tongue posture. Many practitioners do not care about this and hence say functionals in adults do not work. You much be a nasal breather to ensure lip seal and correct tongue posture as a minimum. In a lot of adults just this alone will allow mandible to tract forward without any functional appliances. The key though is must be gradual... 

if you have a 10mm over jet and didn’t work on mandible at beginning of treatment and at the end thought damn, the Mandible needs to come forward let’s do it... then you will be doomed for failure... the mandible being pushed forward 10mm at once will cause pain and tmd and will not stay there. In children completely different... they are more mobile so doing this will  cause Mandibular remodeling and adaptation very quickly without causing tmd. 

If you read up about Mandibular Advacement Splints eg Somnomed for the treatment of sleep apnoea, you will see very good research by dentists, sleep physicians etc that show ALWAYS with long term use the bite of the patient changes and they become more class 3. Why? Because every night they are promoting Mandibular condyle changes which become permanent making the lower jaw forward posture a permanent change.

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Posted : 03/10/2018 5:24 pm
GoTTi and Apollo liked
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

im just doing an expansion do you think thatll have a similar effect as the braces? because with expansion comes proclination and would make room i would think

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Posted : 03/10/2018 8:05 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: SUGR1

Good job, 

This clearly shows that good orthodontists is simply that.... good!

even more pertinent in this case because our friend here had bad orthodontic treatment previously. 

Just giving my thoughts on the case. 

Thanks allot @sugr1 , your feedback is highly informative as always.

Yes to the part in bold, especially considering that the doctor who did the first bad treatment is the same one correcting it right now. My current treatment has turned many principles he held so closely upside down. So much so that he is telling me if he could get a visa he would travel to Australia to learn FAGGA.

Posted by: SUGR1

- Apart from IMW the canine and premolars has also improved. We focus a lot on IMW but these are also just as important in a lot of people. You will find adults with poor swallowing patterns who may have 42mm IMW but very narrow tappered arch’s because their anterior 2/3 of tongue never met the palate. 

Many people here fit this description and it does not seem their situation is improving with mewing.

 

Posted by: SUGR1

Slow expansion (rate 1mm/month) will cause the remodeling effect without affecting the suture. The biggest benefits are minimal to no relaps, and the palate Will remodel to flatten. This is significant to tongue suction ability... and nasal breathing and latency. This is why you will hear a lot of experienced practitioners say they hate the removable acrylic expanders.... because it sits on the palate and even with slow expansion it does not allow the palate to drop down. 

This is very important information. I am currently using my acrylic expander as a retainer because the braces on their own aren't sufficient. Should I switch to a lingual wire like the FRAL or ALF to allow the palate to remodel?

I actually had my doctor hand make a wire for my lower arch to speed up the expansion. I showed him a picture of the of the FRLA as a guide to the concept and he used a different wire that could be bent and retensioned for expansion.

I will post a picture of it soon.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 04/10/2018 1:33 am
richardthunder
Active Member

Great post! What kind of facial changes have you seen with this expansion? Also super interested in how you are attacking the scoliosis and what progress you've seen. Thanks!

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Posted : 04/10/2018 4:08 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: richardthunder

Great post! What kind of facial changes have you seen with this expansion? Also super interested in how you are attacking the scoliosis and what progress you've seen. Thanks!

I answer your question on facial changes in the first post. 

For scoliosis, I am treating it in a somewhat different approach. I am incorporating scoliosis exercises with my general posture correction. I examine the muscles that seem to be tight on one side and try to target them more.

For example, I know my right iliopsoas is tight and is contributing to my pelvic turn and tilt. So I target it with more stretching. Another example I know my left levator scapulae is tight and is rotating my head to the left, so I target it with more stretching and so forth.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 04/10/2018 12:20 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

i dont mean to repeat myself but im just asking if you think i could achieve similar results if i just use a expander? @abdulrahman @sugr1

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Posted : 04/10/2018 7:12 pm
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

also sugr u said something about molars that would widen the jaw

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Posted : 04/10/2018 7:15 pm
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: SUGR1

Slow expansion (rate 1mm/month) will cause the remodeling effect without affecting the suture. The biggest benefits are minimal to no relaps, and the palate Will remodel to flatten. This is significant to tongue suction ability... and nasal breathing and latency. This is why you will hear a lot of experienced practitioners say they hate the removable acrylic expanders.... because it sits on the palate and even with slow expansion it does not allow the palate to drop down.

I'm confused. Slow expansion causes the desired flattening effect, but the removable acrylic expanders inhibit that, even when used to expand slowly enough? How should the palate be expanded if it's too narrow for the tongue to?

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Posted : 04/10/2018 7:33 pm
kasey
Active Member

You used an expander without seeing a dentist? Is that safe to do? Expansion treatment costs a lot and not sure which to go with. 

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Posted : 04/10/2018 10:08 pm
kasey
Active Member

You used an expander without seeing a dentist? Is that safe to do? Expansion treatment costs a lot and not sure which to go with. 

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Posted : 04/10/2018 10:09 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Rockyp33

i dont mean to repeat myself but im just asking if you think i could achieve similar results if i just use a expander? @abdulrahman @sugr1

No worries, but I thought the question was specifically addressed to sugr1. I don't know your condition, but I can summarize how my expansion took place.

First I had braces for 9 months in which my teeth were lined up to have a uniform and straight dental layout. The angulation of the front teeth was corrected and the overjet was eliminated. I had a small amount of expansion as well (1.4mm)

Second, with braces still on, I used for 3 months a small costume made acrylic expander made by my doctor to speed up the expansion by an amount of 1mm per month.

I hope that helps

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 05/10/2018 12:59 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Silver
Posted by: SUGR1

Slow expansion (rate 1mm/month) will cause the remodeling effect without affecting the suture. The biggest benefits are minimal to no relaps, and the palate Will remodel to flatten. This is significant to tongue suction ability... and nasal breathing and latency. This is why you will hear a lot of experienced practitioners say they hate the removable acrylic expanders.... because it sits on the palate and even with slow expansion it does not allow the palate to drop down.

I'm confused. Slow expansion causes the desired flattening effect, but the removable acrylic expanders inhibit that, even when used to expand slowly enough? How should the palate be expanded if it's too narrow for the tongue to?

You got it correct. I think he would suggest a lingual wire to expand the arch much like the ALF or the FLRA wire he uses part of the controlled arch phase of FAGGA treatment.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 05/10/2018 1:06 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: kasey

You used an expander without seeing a dentist? Is that safe to do? Expansion treatment costs a lot and not sure which to go with. 

No, the expander was provided to me by an orthodontist. For the overwhelming majority of people I would never recommend doing it on their own.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 05/10/2018 1:09 am
Apollo liked
richardthunder
Active Member
Posted by: SUGR1

- Mandibular traction forward. In adults of all ages the body of mandible can not Change side or widen. What you can do is develop the alveolar process by uprighting the molars. This will usually result in significant width changes. However up until your death bed the Condyle of the mandible is a growth centre. That is why in adults it is still possible to use a functional appliance to bring the mandible forward (gradually) to follow the maxilla development. Where people get mixed results is due to the fact this must be accompanied by correct breathing and tongue posture. Many practitioners do not care about this and hence say functionals in adults do not work. You much be a nasal breather to ensure lip seal and correct tongue posture as a minimum. In a lot of adults just this alone will allow mandible to tract forward without any functional appliances. The key though is must be gradual... 

if you have a 10mm over jet and didn’t work on mandible at beginning of treatment and at the end thought damn, the Mandible needs to come forward let’s do it... then you will be doomed for failure... the mandible being pushed forward 10mm at once will cause pain and tmd and will not stay there. In children completely different... they are more mobile so doing this will  cause Mandibular remodeling and adaptation very quickly without causing tmd. 

If you read up about Mandibular Advacement Splints eg Somnomed for the treatment of sleep apnoea, you will see very good research by dentists, sleep physicians etc that show ALWAYS with long term use the bite of the patient changes and they become more class 3. Why? Because every night they are promoting Mandibular condyle changes which become permanent making the lower jaw forward posture a permanent change.

Can you explain how the mandible changes just from mewing? My main goal is to move the mandible forward

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Posted : 05/10/2018 2:17 am
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Silver
Posted by: SUGR1

Slow expansion (rate 1mm/month) will cause the remodeling effect without affecting the suture. The biggest benefits are minimal to no relaps, and the palate Will remodel to flatten. This is significant to tongue suction ability... and nasal breathing and latency. This is why you will hear a lot of experienced practitioners say they hate the removable acrylic expanders.... because it sits on the palate and even with slow expansion it does not allow the palate to drop down.

I'm confused. Slow expansion causes the desired flattening effect, but the removable acrylic expanders inhibit that, even when used to expand slowly enough? How should the palate be expanded if it's too narrow for the tongue to?

You got it correct. I think he would suggest a lingual wire to expand the arch much like the ALF or the FLRA wire he uses part of the controlled arch phase of FAGGA treatment.

Can you just buy such a thing yourself? How does it expand the palate if you aren't increasing the width by something like turning a screw?

Are the others who use a traditional expander permanently losing out on potential?

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Posted : 05/10/2018 10:12 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Rockyp33

i dont mean to repeat myself but im just asking if you think i could achieve similar results if i just use a expander? @abdulrahman @sugr1

No worries, but I thought the question was specifically addressed to sugr1. I don't know your condition, but I can summarize how my expansion took place.

First I had braces for 9 months in which my teeth were lined up to have a uniform and straight dental layout. The angulation of the front teeth was corrected and the overjet was eliminated. I had a small amount of expansion as well (1.4mm)

Second, with braces still on, I used for 3 months a small costume made acrylic expander made by my doctor to speed up the expansion by an amount of 1mm per month.

I hope that helps

and you got that expansion from the proclination from braces i would assume because thats all braces do correct? I guess I just wanted some reassurance using an expander on the front would help in a similar way because its going to expand the arch so even if they dont procline id hope that my mandible would eventually catch up to. I just really want this expansion to work if i go through with it

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Posted : 05/10/2018 5:43 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Silver

Can you just buy such a thing yourself? How does it expand the palate if you aren't increasing the width by something like turning a screw?

Are the others who use a traditional expander permanently losing out on potential?

No the ALF system is only available through a clinic. It works much like self ligating braces. A wide wire is compressed and placed inside the arch. As it decompresses and goes back to its original wider shape it will expand the arch.

I am not sure if you permanently lose your chance to have the palate drop down but mine did not drop with the expander. Here is a comparison after 6 months of braces and current. The palate is visibly wider but not shallower:

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 06/10/2018 11:30 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Rockyp33
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Rockyp33

i dont mean to repeat myself but im just asking if you think i could achieve similar results if i just use a expander? @abdulrahman @sugr1

No worries, but I thought the question was specifically addressed to sugr1. I don't know your condition, but I can summarize how my expansion took place.

First I had braces for 9 months in which my teeth were lined up to have a uniform and straight dental layout. The angulation of the front teeth was corrected and the overjet was eliminated. I had a small amount of expansion as well (1.4mm)

Second, with braces still on, I used for 3 months a small costume made acrylic expander made by my doctor to speed up the expansion by an amount of 1mm per month.

I hope that helps

and you got that expansion from the proclination from braces i would assume because thats all braces do correct? I guess I just wanted some reassurance using an expander on the front would help in a similar way because its going to expand the arch so even if they dont procline id hope that my mandible would eventually catch up to. I just really want this expansion to work if i go through with it

The braces corrected teeth angulation and did some expansion. The exander I am using does not touch the front teeth only molars and premolars.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 06/10/2018 11:33 am
Silver
Trusted Member
Posted by: Abdulrahman
Posted by: Silver

Can you just buy such a thing yourself? How does it expand the palate if you aren't increasing the width by something like turning a screw?

Are the others who use a traditional expander permanently losing out on potential?

No the ALF system is only available through a clinic. It works much like self ligating braces. A wide wire is compressed and placed inside the arch. As it decompresses and goes back to its original wider shape it will expand the arch.

I am not sure if you permanently lose your chance to have the palate drop down but mine did not drop with the expander. Here is a comparison after 6 months of braces and current. The palate is visibly wider but not shallower:

Why would the ALF wire act differently?

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Posted : 07/10/2018 5:57 am
Rockyp33
Reputable Member

Well damn i was hoping using an expander would help me expand in a similar way as you im not really sure what to do now i guess braces could work

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Posted : 07/10/2018 11:03 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

I have a question: how long from the moment you see / notice increases in your intermolar width until this has actual effects on your appearance / midface?

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Posted : 30/05/2019 5:06 am
krollic
Reputable Member

i would also appreciate an update on your current progress, @abdulrahman :]

 

what's your imw now?

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Posted : 30/05/2019 5:35 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: GreekGodBrody

I have a question: how long from the moment you see / notice increases in your intermolar width until this has actual effects on your appearance / midface?

I am not sure as I only experienced mid face changes in any clearly noticeable way twice. Once when I was using the acrylic expander and once 2-3 months ago for no obvious reason.

The changes are real and noticeable and since fasting in Ramadan they have become even more clear as my face slimmed down. I never seen my zygomatic arches this way before. This almost proves in my mind that the changes I was observing were not due to facial fat loss or facial muscle dystrophy but real projection.

Keep in mind that the effect is small so only a couple people other than me noticed it.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 02/06/2019 7:29 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: krollic

i would also appreciate an update on your current progress, @abdulrahman :]

 

what's your imw now?

I haven't checked in at least 6 months. So much of that time I was looking for a new orthodontist to move my upper teeth forward to close the gaps created by the expander. The previous one was wasting time. He made my treatment take too long.

That being said that last time I checked there was 1-2mm regression. Then I started regaining everything and more with just the braces. That didn't make sense as the braces are designed for 38mm inter molar width. The last time my orthodontist replaced the upper wire 2 weeks ago it was wider than standard. He had to bend the new wire wider to match the old one.

I know the old one was not bent wider when first installed, so it must be my tongue exerting pressure and expanding the teeth and wire. That would explain the long pause my orthodontist had when he was examining the old wire before expanding the new one to match it. After he finished he looked me at said "keep doing your myofunctional exercises".

That was the first time he brought up that topic. Looks like he was debating in his mind weather my tongue could have caused the old wire to become wider and ultimately decided that was indeed possible. Hence, his comment at the end.

So my guess it's somewhere between 39-40mm, maybe even more.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 02/06/2019 7:42 am
elevee
Trusted Member

Wow. So you think you are expanding even while in braces???

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Posted : 02/06/2019 8:26 am
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: elevee

Wow. So you think you are expanding even while in braces???

I forgot to add one more thing. Part of my treatment to bring the teeth forward I had springs installed inside the wires between some teeth to help them move forward. This has the effect of pushing the back teeth a little which is what happened and my second molars moved back enough to slip out of the wire.

Since the wire could not be made longer the orthodontist cut it and left the second molars freely. Instead of relapsing as usually happens when there is no retention they expanded by about 1-2mm in 1.5 months. I think that is another interesting sign that my tongue is pushing the teeth outward but the wire is holding them back.

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 02/06/2019 10:20 am
Kilroy
Active Member

Was the paletal expander you used from an orthodontist or did you buy it and did the treatment yourself?

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Posted : 03/06/2019 6:52 am
dm222
Trusted Member

and jaw?

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Posted : 03/06/2019 3:24 pm
Abdulrahman
Reputable Member
Posted by: Kilroy

Was the paletal expander you used from an orthodontist or did you buy it and did the treatment yourself?

I answer that question earlier in the post that the expander is from an orthodontist.

 

Posted by: dm222

and jaw?

What do you mean?

my story: http://www.aljabri.com/blog/my-story/

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Posted : 05/06/2019 2:48 am
Masturbinho
New Member

Hey, 

im trying to improve my midface and also maximise forward growth. does the intermolar width directly correlate with how wide your face is?

 

at the moment i am nose breathing, correcting and performing good tongue posture, ensuring good lip seal, although I really want to speed up the process as much as i can safely. theres appliances such as the FAGGA  thats been suggested here , but I went on the website and it said it was 7500 dollars atleast for an adult (im 20 years old) and it is way out of my budget sadly. are there cheaper alternatives that do the same thing available? Abdulrahman, i've found some appliances online that apparently custom make the appliances for you. here are some ive found:

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/clear-retainers-and-fake-braces/32/palatinal-expander

https://www.bracesshop.net/en/active-plates/1/y-plate/3-way-schwarz-upper-jaw

 

do these essentially do the same thing as say the FAGGA appliance?

you've mention that you wouldn't recommend anyone to just buy a dental product online, what are some of the risks and tips available if i was to go through with buying such a device to speed up my facial development? 

ps, theres alot of questions here im sorry guys; i want to learn as much as possible before i do anything haha <3 

thx

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Posted : 19/07/2019 6:07 am