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Is my maxilla recessed? - Help in determining my problems  

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GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Hi, I 'm new here. Been reading / watching videos on facial aesthetics lately, though I haven't dived deep into it. Inspired by a similar thread, I decided to open mine.

Story: I'm 27 years old. Never really consider myself an attractive guy, hated looking in the mirror. Haven't had much success with the opposite sex, but that was  influenced  by other factors (chronic depression, anxiety, isolation). My height is between 5'11 and 6 ft, if it matters.

Now, let's talk about my face: I never viewed myself as ugly, but not extremely handsome for sure. Until I discovered Lookism and facial aesthetics, I couldn't pin point what are my negative aspects.

 

Self-diagnosis:

  • retruded maxilla (melted midface syndrome)
  • narrow jaw, high gonial angle
  • 'skinny face' .Not sure what determines this. I just feel my face looks as skinny at my current weight (77 kg) as it was when I was really skinny (63kg)
  • weak chin, and, square-shaped, and a bit of recessed chin
  • decent / good zygos, good eye area and overall a good upper third

 

I've included here several pictures, from the front and side (different angles). Could you please let me know if my assesments are correct?
I started mewing about 2-3 months ago. Haven't seen much change tbh. Though I haven't been consist with it, I struggle to keep my tongue up for a long time.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NEbJcSkKxmu9KMPqfLZBQxq1nNBvvHF2

Note: My natural posture is more hunched than in the pics. I made a conscious effort to have a straight neck when posing.

Thank you all in advance.

 

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Posted : 18/01/2019 8:03 am
BigBoss12
Active Member

Can you fit your entire tongue on the palate? Does your intermolar width allow for it?

If not i thin k you should invest in an expander. 

 

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Posted : 18/01/2019 5:39 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member
Posted by: BigBoss12

Can you fit your entire tongue on the palate? Does your intermolar width allow for it?

If not i thin k you should invest in an expander. 

 

Kind of.  It touches the teeth slightly. I have a 'tall' / deep palate. I have a lot of vertical space on the roof, not so much width

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Posted : 19/01/2019 6:54 am
tgw
 tgw
Active Member

Your maxilla is the opposite of recessed

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Posted : 19/01/2019 6:55 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member
Posted by: tgw

Your maxilla is the opposite of recessed

Then how would my weak jawline / high gonial angle be explained?

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Posted : 21/01/2019 7:38 am
megamandude
Trusted Member

Your maxilla looks recessed (not insane) but still not optimal

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Posted : 21/01/2019 12:46 pm
AloeVera
Eminent Member
Posted by: tgw

Your maxilla is the opposite of recessed

Hey, that's an interesting point - if the maxilla is the opposite of recessed what is the term for it?

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Posted : 21/01/2019 2:34 pm
megamandude
Trusted Member

protruding but his is far from that

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Posted : 21/01/2019 3:01 pm
BigBoss12
Active Member

if you feel that your face looks narrow/long then opt for a shorter haircut, it would make your face look less long and bulking up more could add fat to your face to make it look more round.

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Posted : 21/01/2019 5:00 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member
Posted by: BigBoss12

if you feel that your face looks narrow/long then opt for a shorter haircut, it would make your face look less long and bulking up more could add fat to your face to make it look more round.

Yeah, but since having healthy and voluminous hair is a sign of attractiveness, it would be a pity not to do take advantage of it.

Bulking doesn't seem to add fat to my face, which is fine, as I don't wanna lose my definition.

Oddly, I even got a few compliments in my lifetime on my jawline, probably because of low bodyfat.

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Posted : 27/01/2019 3:28 am
Odys
 Odys
Eminent Member

You need to expand and flatten your palate. Your maxilla is recessed. Your nose shows this by its lack of straightness. The first thing to change is the upward tilt of  your head. You should seek to release and lengthen the back of your neck and raise the crown of your head to the sky. Tilt your photos to level your eyes with the top of your ears to see what the tilt of your head disguises.

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Posted : 27/01/2019 3:47 am
darkindigo
Reputable Member

Chewing a little gum... not overdoing it to hurt TMJ... that really does give impact of good jaws.  Better yet, eat healthy foods.  My neighbor chewed gum an hour a day on drive and was worried about the excessive jaw definition and stopped.

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Posted : 27/01/2019 9:40 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Just measured my IMW at 33-34mm. How low is it? Should I consider a palate expander? (according to the mewing chart I should)

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Posted : 28/01/2019 3:22 pm
megamandude
Trusted Member
Posted by: GreekGodBrody

Just measured my IMW at 33-34mm. How low is it? Should I consider a palate expander? (according to the mewing chart I should)

Yes. I would go with MSE to expand maxilla. In fact, if you combine a facial mask with MSE, you might be able to pull your maxilla forwards. You can read more about this here  https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/possibly-new-holy-grail-for-moving-the-maxilla-up-and-forwards/

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Posted : 28/01/2019 5:29 pm
Odys
 Odys
Eminent Member

I think of 34 mm as normal narrow. I think it is where many people here start. I haven’t used a palate expander and you should probably take this into account in the comments I make. A palate expander will give you quicker growth in your intermolar width. This will primarily be of use in getting your tongue up into a better position. I have found that the rate of progress improves the more fully I have been able to get my tongue up. At 34mm I found progress rather slow and dispiriting. I did not stop or falter but part of me wishes I had been kinder to myself and got a palate expander, and quicker progress overall in this long process might have been a good thing. It is quite difficult to assess whether one’s tongue is properly up. I have for a long time thought my tongue was properly up only find a couple of months later that it wasn’t and it now is, and so on again and again.

If you get a palate expander it will be tempting to use it to expand several mm’s rather than just enough to get your tongue up properly. I have a concern that palate expanders move teeth outwards rather than expanding the palate. You have said that your palate is high. Mewing will be more helpful to fix this. I think expansion by mewing is better for improving nasal breathing. Mike Mew has done a video diary for one patient which petered out, in which he sought to expand the palate to improve the nasal airway and did not succeed. I note also that the people on this forum who have achieved the highest IMWs seem to have only mewed, and worry that using a palate expander as a kick start may ultimately be limiting (I acknowledge this is tendentious and my thought alone).

My face was quite imbalanced and I thought that if I achieved IMW growth by a palate expander I would be giving up leverage to widen and even it. Of course I cannot know what the result would have been of I had done otherwise. I am pleased with what I have achieved in this regard. If your objective is to improve the look of your face, my personal view is that mewing without a palate expander would serve you better.

So I think it comes down to what your objectives are and how patient you feel.

 

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Posted : 28/01/2019 6:41 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member
Posted by: Odys

It is quite difficult to assess whether one’s tongue is properly up. I have for a long time thought my tongue was properly up only find a couple of months later that it wasn’t and it now is, and so on again and again.

True. Yesterday actually I had a revelation, after watching a video on mewing instructions (AstroSky on Youtube). Turns out I was barely putting up my posterior third of the tongue up up until now.

And now I learned how to consciously put my posterior third up, combined with the front and middle parts.

Thanks for your answer. I will think it through.

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Posted : 29/01/2019 2:03 am
Mangas77
Eminent Member

Hi @GreekGodBrody, have you made some progress since your last post ?

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Posted : 20/04/2019 12:04 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member

@greekgodbrody We need photos of teeth.

But whoa, whoa, whoa... let me just explain.  Um... can someone please tell this hot tamale that he isn't applying to be a model in an Outdoorsman Magazine?! 

I suspect your problem, though... and nobody's ever told you about it before.. most likely.  It's not your face.  It's your vitamin D levels.  Go get them checked then get outside and get some sun.  Phew... that was easy.  Next!  And no more GQ looking models worried about their gosh-darned sexy looks.

That being said... depending on the teeth... there may be a suggestion or 2.  There may be an airway issue.   Never a bad idea to get a free CBCT from a nearby orthodontist.  🙂

Depending on teeth or palate, this may actually be an aligner case.  I don't love aligners typically, but this could be one.  Can't see without teeth, though.

This is not a hit-on.  How much do you work out?

Also, I would start on some cod liver oil from Nordic Naturals for good brain health...  It is incredible stuff.  There are many different factors for brain health.

One very important factor to consider when deciding what to do or how to proceed is what your facial design specifications are.  What concerns you or what would you like to possibly see change?  Aesthetics are NOT by the numbers and it was Dr. John Mew himself who said this.  He said that the optimal way to determine attractiveness is to get a panel of about 10 people and have them rate... and that is the most scientific way.  However, I will tell you something... people all rate differently... so it's all a crap shoot anyway... and if you are happy with some aspects that is good.  However, I would absolutely check for a tongue tie.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQihz4JOPps&t=1s

Also, gum chewing is not a great idea...  I had mentioned that before as something my neighbor had done... and that is true... but it can be bad for TMJ.  To move the chin forward... there are ways... such as a potential appliance I'd like to design and create.  I believe that a simply, correctly designed device can actually cause lower jaw skeletal lengthening.  I believe it can better than anything on the market.. but I do need to test... and not on myself.  Direct Message me if interested in being a guinnea pig.

Definition of better is more biologically adaptive and I suspect it actually works for adults.  I don't see these types of claims many places.. LVI is one place and Vivos to an extent.. but that's more upswing than anything. 

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Posted : 21/04/2019 2:06 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Mangas77 Thanks for asking. I was gonna update this thread

While I do feel like I've made good progress in getting the back tongue up and stimulating the soft palate, my IMW seemed to have stayed the same 😔 . I've done monthly measurements, between both set of premolar and the molars. Pretty much the same width. Maybe my molars width has seen a minimal expansion,  <= 0.5 mm

The weird thing is, subjectively, I do feel I have more space for the tongue, than a few months ago.

 

Looking from the front, my face looks the same, with one exception. Looking from the side, I do see some positive changes:

  • my chin may have moved forward a bit, 0.5 - 1 mm
  • my jawline looks a bit more chiseled in certain positions (this can be due to the effect of gum chewing, which I've also practiced)
  • some masseter hypertrophy on one side due to chewing gum and food more ofen on that side. It looks good

Also, recently I examined my mouth and palate closely, touching the area with my fingers. I realized my palate is quite high-arched / tall, so in order to conver the tongue with the palate, I have to fold it / 'mold it'.

 

I still keep my optimism.

I've made other improvements very recently (1-2 weeks ago) :

  • my thoracic, neck and skull posture is much closer to the ideal, and I make an effort to keep it permanently
  • I started doing chin tucks more often. At the gym, in-between sets, at home, when I'm cooking..etc
  • I walk with a semi-chin-tuck most of the time now.

@darkindigo I will post new pics soon of both my face and teeth and palate.

 

PS: Also asking for a bit of advice. So far, the way I used to mew was with my front teeth minimally / lightly touching each other, and my molars not touching each other at all. Was I not doing it right and was my lower mandible not engaged?

If I try to close my mouth more to make my molars touch ( I have short molars), my upper central incisors (front teeth) gets in front of the lower central incisors and covers them. In this positition, my tip of the tongue struggles to find space, as I've brought my lower mandible up.

Would this be the correct way I should be mewing? 🙄 🙄 

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Posted : 22/04/2019 2:08 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

My latest measurements:

  • 34 mm first premolars
  • 39 mm second premolars
  • 46 mm between molars

I think I only have one set of molars

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Posted : 22/04/2019 3:35 am
Mangas77
Eminent Member

Don't worry @GreekGodBrody. Mewing results are not linear. You can go through a period without any result and then suddenly get your IMW increase a lot. I remember an incredible 1 year before/after of a guy who didn't notice progress before the eighth month. This process takes years, not just a few months. And btw if you notice esthetic changes - your chin that has moved forward for instance -, you can be sure you are on the right track. Consistency always pays off, keep mewing bro !

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Posted : 23/04/2019 1:20 pm
darkindigo
Reputable Member
Posted by: GreekGodBrody

Mangas77 Thanks for asking. I was gonna update this thread

While I do feel like I've made good progress in getting the back tongue up and stimulating the soft palate, my IMW seemed to have stayed the same 😔 . I've done monthly measurements, between both set of premolar and the molars. Pretty much the same width. Maybe my molars width has seen a minimal expansion,  <= 0.5 mm

The weird thing is, subjectively, I do feel I have more space for the tongue, than a few months ago.

 

Looking from the front, my face looks the same, with one exception. Looking from the side, I do see some positive changes:

  • my chin may have moved forward a bit, 0.5 - 1 mm
  • my jawline looks a bit more chiseled in certain positions (this can be due to the effect of gum chewing, which I've also practiced)
  • some masseter hypertrophy on one side due to chewing gum and food more ofen on that side. It looks good

Also, recently I examined my mouth and palate closely, touching the area with my fingers. I realized my palate is quite high-arched / tall, so in order to conver the tongue with the palate, I have to fold it / 'mold it'.

 

I still keep my optimism.

I've made other improvements very recently (1-2 weeks ago) :

  • my thoracic, neck and skull posture is much closer to the ideal, and I make an effort to keep it permanently
  • I started doing chin tucks more often. At the gym, in-between sets, at home, when I'm cooking..etc
  • I walk with a semi-chin-tuck most of the time now.

@darkindigo I will post new pics soon of both my face and teeth and palate.

 

PS: Also asking for a bit of advice. So far, the way I used to mew was with my front teeth minimally / lightly touching each other, and my molars not touching each other at all. Was I not doing it right and was my lower mandible not engaged?

If I try to close my mouth more to make my molars touch ( I have short molars), my upper central incisors (front teeth) gets in front of the lower central incisors and covers them. In this positition, my tip of the tongue struggles to find space, as I've brought my lower mandible up.

Would this be the correct way I should be mewing? 🙄 🙄 

That's called a deep bite.  Did you have it when you began?  My Mewing attempts caused a deep bite when it wasn't there before.  FYI - Some guy on the internet cannot say that everyone should have their tongue in a certain position.  That is a leap of logic... in determining that the tongue position is so important.  The swallowing is more important and even Dr. Mew said tongue position is in importance to swallowing (light pressures).  Anyway, look up Dr. John Mew's video on a deep bite.  The issue with a deep bite is that tongue isn't far enough forward.  So... there you go!

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Posted : 23/04/2019 8:29 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

palate pics

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Posted : 25/04/2019 6:43 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

@darkdingo You might be right, I seem to have a 'deep bite'.
It was minor before starting mewing, from what I remember, and now, months after mewing daily, it looks like a complete 'deep bite'.

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Posted : 02/05/2019 9:41 am
jbsims
Active Member

I wish I had your jaws.

What happened to your wisdom teeth?

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Posted : 02/05/2019 11:43 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

UPDATE: I am now absolutely positive that I have undergone changes in the last 1-2 weeks.
I feel like my tongue has more space. I also have 2 objective measurements:

1. my IMW measured this morning is 47mm (between first molars). Last measurements were 46 mm. Still, it seems like the distance between the premolars is the same. Why would this be? Could it be because only my teeth have moved and not my palate?

2. If I put my index and middle finger between my molars, they used to fit exactly, no room left. Last few days, there is absolutely more space between my fingers and molars.

@jbsims They didn't come out, except the upper ones who are partially out.

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Posted : 03/05/2019 1:59 am
jbsims
Active Member

Just keep doing what you are doing. You're young, you've got all the teeth God gave you. You've got plenty of years ahead of you to steer the ship in the right direction.

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Posted : 03/05/2019 11:05 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Yo, take a look guys of this recent pic of me.
I know it's not a good one for proper analysis, but my impression is that my zygos are more pronounced and overall my face is a bit more angularity[attach

]270[/attach]

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Posted : 05/05/2019 7:32 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

bump

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Posted : 23/05/2019 3:59 am
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member

Hi,

You looked good since the beginning. You look Better now. Pics from the side?

Personally, asymmetries don't matter that much in attractiveness

 

 

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Posted : 23/05/2019 4:17 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

I took a video of me at the gym today and it was depressing, I wanted to cry. I was coping all these whole months believing I was making progress, because I looked a bit more chiseled in certain angles and what not.

I think I've virtually made no progress. Maxilla is downswung, same as it was, jawline as narrow and round as ever. Add that to the fact that I have a small head, 😩 😩 

I'm gonna go all out on hard mewing and thumbpulling. I really don't wanna live with the lower third that I have anymore, I look like an emasculated teenager

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Posted : 05/06/2019 3:41 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

UPDATE:

  • I started supplementing K2 (mk4 form), regular dosage, together with Calcium Citrate (regular dose), and also high-dose Vitamin D3 (5000 IU)
  • I've also dabbled a bit with thumb-pulling, but don't think will rely much on it.
  • Looked at some of my photos from a year back, and noticed my face looked longer (especially the midface). Now, dare I say, my maxilla seems a bit more compact, which is great. Also, my FWHR ratio has likely increased by a bit.

Still hoping for the near future 🙂

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Posted : 13/06/2019 6:27 am
Sailor87
Eminent Member

Has your inter molar width increased yet?

For periods I like to mew, but otherwise forget about the whole thing. Its good to be obsessed about doing the mewing, but thats it. 

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Posted : 13/06/2019 4:45 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member
Posted by: Sailor87

Has your inter molar width increased yet?

For periods I like to mew, but otherwise forget about the whole thing. Its good to be obsessed about doing the mewing, but thats it. 

Oh, man, it's still a struggle. Whenever I have a low day (depression), I really don't feel like mewing because it takes a conscious effort from me.

For about 6 months, I've had no improvement in my IMW :|.

Since then, I've improved my technique, and last time I've measured, have seen a 1mm increase. But it's minor, and going very slow unfortunately.

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Posted : 14/06/2019 3:04 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Pics from 1-2 months ago taken with a DSLR.

When I look at them I truly realize how over is it for me

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Posted : 20/06/2019 3:01 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

I'm either being paranoid, or it seems that mewing has made my overbite worse, and also my chin more recessed than it was?
Just kill me now.

Anyone can tell me if it's possible that incorrect mewing could make you more recessed.

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Posted : 21/06/2019 4:37 am
Liquidlips1
Active Member

Not an expert but you don’t look particularly recessed to me and your latest pics look better than your earlier ones, which was good to start with. 

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Posted : 21/06/2019 9:11 am
Freddie
Eminent Member

Oh my god.. If you’re that insecure you shouldn’t mewing at all and seek for mental/self-image help. By my own experience most people with narrow palate and little imw are lead to have poor self esteem and are often depressed people, most of them have sleep disorders problem too.. Do you wake up with a sore mouth ? Red eyes, tired ? Do you have difficulties engaging the back of your tongue is that making you snoring ? If so you are the typical case. 

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Posted : 21/06/2019 10:42 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

@Liquidlips1: At the beginning of the year I started chewing gum (regular, zero sugar), and did it for like 3 months. I did see some small increase in the width of my jaw (front profile), so masseter hypertrophy.

I had to quit it, though. Because I started the Carnivore diet in march. And gum has artificial sweeteners, and that's a problem cause it triggers sugar cravings.
I would switch to mastic gum, but can't find it in my country at all.

@Freddie: Sorry man, had a bad day and I'm in a dark emotional place, so I may seem very pessimistic. To answer your inquiry.

I did kind of always had some trouble with sleep (taking a long time to fall asleep, waking in the middle of the nights, waking up lethargic). I am very sensitive to electronic lights late at night or any other stimulation really. Room hygiene matters too.But I was never a mouth-breather (I think). I even asked my mother about my breathing patterns in childhood, and she confirmed it.

I never snored, and even now, when tracking my sleep with my phone (Sleep Cycle app), it shows zero snoring. My ex-gf never mentioned anything about me snoring ever. 

Not sure what 'sore mouth' means. Bad breath, yes. Also, used to wake up with saliva around my lips. Doesn't happen anymore.

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Posted : 22/06/2019 3:46 am
James
Eminent Member

Your facial structure is average or above average. Lookism makes it sounds like either you are in the top 20% or you get nothing, but that's simply not true. My facial structure is less robust than yours, and my chin and jawline worse, yet I've had an adequate social life. Of course, it would be great to get better reactions from people, which I confess is one of the reasons I am doing AGGA (also trying to fix my UARS). But it's not "over" if you have a bit of CFD, as long as you also have some good features. Remember that most of the people on Lookism are much worse looking than you or me, which makes them very fatalistic, and gives them wrong ideas about what the prospects of a 50-80th percentile guy are like. Just because it's over for some of them doesn't mean that it's over for you.

You do have craniofacial dystrophy, but at least you have definition of your mandible. It seems that women care a lot about the jawline of the mandible, and they are willing to forgive some degree of downward growth of the maxilla. See this video, and look at the example of Adam Driver, for instance. This means that things are actually a lot more forgiving than Lookism would have you believe. For another example, look at actor Adrien Brody:

He has similar issues with his facial development as you do, and he has a deviated septum, but it seems that this is forgivable due to his mandible definition and other good features. He has attractive girlfriends. This is partly due to fame, but how would he have become famous as a leading man without being at least somewhat good-looking?

If you want to see larger changes to your face, consider an appliance in addition to Mewing. An appliance might also help if you have a sleep disorder, which should be investigated. If you have poor quality sleep then it might be causing you anxiety which could make you insecure.

Since you are sensitive to light at night, I hope you are wearing blue blocking glasses from sunset until bed. This helped me a lot. There are lots of options these days.

Sleep Cycle is a decent app but it's not very sensitive. For me with UARS it shows 4-5 peaks a night. But the Oura Ring is more sensitive and shows me fully waking up 6-8x a night.

If you weren't a mouth-breather, then maybe there is an issue with your nasal airways. Try BreatheRight Extra strips or a nasal dilator and see if you breathe better. Also, try the Cottle Maneuver. If you breathe better, you might have nasal valve collapse. Since you have a long, thin nose, this is worth looking into.

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Posted : 22/06/2019 1:06 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

@James: Hey, man. Thanks for taking the time to write this.
Someone actually told me once I have a resemblance to A. Brody, haha.
I am not at all familiar with AGGA / appliances, costs involved may be a factor here.
I will keep on mewing and hope for the best

If you weren't a mouth-breather, then maybe there is an issue with your nasal airways

It's interesting that you mention, I've had trouble with my nasal airway.  Always had somewhat of a stuffy nose, and felt my breathing wasn't at full capacity. This resulted in me having a nasal voice, for which I've been mocked.

Come to think about it, I still have this issue. To a less extent now, but still present

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Posted : 23/06/2019 5:03 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

UPDATE - latest pics (taken with my DSLR)

I know these are in no way accurate to assess any changes, except maybe 2 of the pics included. (I don't jave someone else to take them for me).

It's interesting how from some angles, my jaw can actually look defined and zygos more prominent

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Posted : 23/06/2019 5:10 am
elevee
Trusted Member

I agree with many of the posters above: there's nothing wrong with your looks that would affect your social life or success with women. That said, you have a lot of dental crowding, so I can see how expansion would make you feel better and probably produce some positive change in appearance. I agree with you that AGGA or similar appliances probably aren't needed, or worth the money in your case. Looking at your neck in the last set of photos, I agree with the above advice (was it Oby?) to focus on lifting the crown to straighten the cervical spine. This will also help to get firm pressure up on the posterior 3rd of the palate.

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Posted : 23/06/2019 7:15 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

@elevee: I've had depression about my looks since being a teenager. This killed my confidence. I was a shy, introverted, anxious,  skinny, loner guy the whole time. 

And since girls weren't flocking or hitting on me, I assumed I am ugly. I despised looking at myself in the mirror. Extremely perfectionistic
But how could I even meet girls when I didn't even put myself out there? Never once went to a party the whole 4 years of college. I was extremely loner.

Fast forward to 2 years ago, I hit the gym for the first time.Put on muscle, went from forever skinny to a lean, athletic physique, with some muscle mass. I wanted to change my life around. Started going out more, meeting new people, going out on dates.

I've had my first girlfriend and relationship at age 25. Lost my virginity with her. After ending it with her, I went on like 50 dates in over a year. But almost all of those dates didn't lead to nothing. I couldn't understand. Why do I not inspire sexual desires in women?

It was my anxiety and chronically low confidence dragging me back. Caused by childhood trauma and repressed emotions.

So all those years, I still had mild depression all the time.

A year ago, I discovered Lookism, the blackpill, and Chad Tinder experiments. It absolutely destroyed me, to the point where it induced suicidal thoughts lasting until almost present time.

I stopped going on dates, stopped making any effort in my life. For 6 months, I did not meet one single woman. I was 'LDAR-ing', basically.
Then I discovered mewing, and it gave me new hope. I've also realized I need to do a lot of Inner work to heal my suppressed /& repressed negative emotions. This is my main focus now, and I'm finally seeing a brighter side now

 

Summary:

 

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Posted : 23/06/2019 12:17 pm
Kyte liked
James
Eminent Member

From these photos I can tell that you are above average in attractiveness. Just because women don't flock to you doesn't mean that you are ugly. Women will only flock to you if you are in the top 20% of guys for looks. But if you are in the 70th or 60th percentile, you can still have girlfriends and an active social life, it's just that women won't throw themselves at you, and you have to make the first move and get rejected a lot. This is where many men give up and assume that they are ugly. But eventually, you will run into a woman who appreciates your good features and overlooks your bad features, and then she will be attracted to you. Sounds like this has already happened for you, which proves that what I'm saying is correct.

Remember that most posters on Lookism do not get any girlfriends, and they don't get any matches online. Just the fact that you have had a girlfriend and dates proves that you are not in the same category as them, and your prospects are better. They are pessimistic because their prospects are bad, and they are comparing themselves to the most attractive guys. This leads to black-and-white thinking which really isn't true, and doesn't characterize the experience of moderately attractive guys.

I also have nasal airway issues. My nose is long and thin. I have chronic rhinitis and sinusitis. I also have UARS, upper airway resistance syndrome. If you have nasal issues and your sleep isn't great, then suspect a sleep disorder like UARS or obstructive sleep apnea. Sleep disorders can cause anxiety and depression (see this article by Dr. Steven Park on UARS). There are cases of depression improving when UARS is treated with a palate expander.

Poor nasal airway can also cause anxiety during the day by causing breathing problems. If your breathing is inhibited, then your body can get afraid of not being able to breathe properly, which is called "respiratory embarrassment" and can cause anxiety, hyperventilation, or distressed breathing. Distressed breathing will make you more anxious. It's really hard to be socially confident when your body is afraid of nasal blockage or airway collapse. So not only does poor sleep from a sleep disorder give you anxiety, but poor airway can give you anxiety during the day. For most of my life I have had a stutter during stressful social situations, and I think distressed breathing is the reason why, and the root cause is my anatomy.

If it's hard to be confident then this might not be your fault: it could be a medical issue due to a sleep disorder, or your anatomy giving you breathing problems during the day.

Approaches to consider in addition to Mewing:

  • Appliance to improve sleep and airway
  • Seeing an ENT to get your nasal airway checked out
  • Nasal rinse, breathing strips, nasal dilators for short-term treatment
  • Breathing retraining to avoid distressed breathing during the day
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Posted : 23/06/2019 2:23 pm
elevee
Trusted Member

@greekgodbrody, I'm glad you've moved away from lookism. From what I can see, it's a dangerous echo chamber, a place where a sense of proportion doesn't exist, a circle jerk of of men telling each other masochistic fantasies about how they will never be loved. It's not good company.

I'm really glad that you're working on your emotional wounds. It's a wise, responsible move, and even though excavating those wounds will hurt for a while, it will feel better in the end.

Here's my take on why you haven't had a lot of chemistry with women: depressed people look like they want to be left alone. Even if they don't, even if they are desperate for company, the body language tends to say 'back off'. And people believe what they see. My best friend is seriously depressive, and even though I've known her for 20 years I still believe what I see--her body language.

Here's the real truth, from a real woman: You are an attractive man. No qualifications. Get used to this idea, really sit with it. You're attractive. 

Women like men who are great companions--who are good conversationalists, who are optimistic, who give ready praise, who have a sense of fun. Women do not like complainers, pedants, or people who are self-preoccupied. These are qualities that can be cultivated. Women also vary wildly in what they are physically attracted to. I promise--women are weird, and their standards are generally much more flexible than men think they are. Looks are pretty low on a woman's wish list, and as I already said, you are fine in the looks department.

So...You're on the right track. Stay in good company, cultivate a hopeful attitude, do your inner work. Only do as much mewing as makes you feel good because I swear to god, whatever problems you have experienced are not about your face.

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Posted : 23/06/2019 8:46 pm
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Here's a pic of my when I was 8 years old. My lower third looks wider, and my nose looked so much better (vs my current big nose)

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Posted : 06/07/2019 1:47 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Short update: Past 3 months or so, I still struggled with mewing consistently, it's not yet an effortless habit for me. What did happen is I have developed a subconscious habit to keep my tongue up during my sleep. So I've been soft mewing during my sleep more and more and I think this is giving me benefits.

Was kinda lazy to hard mew, so I did mostly soft mewing this summer.

Experimented with thumb pulling for a while, but too lazy to stick with it. Will re-introduce it into my routine.

I'm confident in saying that improvements are slowly showing up.  From certain angles, my lower third has a lot more angularity. This did not happen before. I could not 'fraud' a jawline, but not I can.

And I'm almost sure my gonial angle has improved.

My overbite seems to have worsened a tiny bit, but I think it's because my maxilla is protruding forward more, and my mandible hasn't yet catched up.

Also, for some reason, my success with women is greater than ever, but this is probably due to me becoming more confident in myself and realizing I'm actually not that ugly.

 

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Posted : 05/09/2019 7:04 am
Kyte liked
Kyte
 Kyte
Estimable Member
 

Also, for some reason, my success with women is greater than ever, but this is probably due to me becoming more confident in myself and realizing I'm actually not that ugly.

 

Finally

You are just NOT ugly

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Posted : 05/09/2019 8:29 am
elevee
Trusted Member

Brody--god bless you, get off the internet and stop comparing your face to photos of others.

 

Seriously, put your social media channels on hold for several months. Go out and talk to actual women. Get busy. Do some physical work, enroll in a professional development program, take up an active hobby. There is nothing. wrong. with your face that could possibly interfere with you having a happy and productive life. Just go live it.

 

The woman will come to you. Unselfconsciousness and preoccupation with useful work are the most attractive traits to women, I promise they really are.

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Posted : 05/09/2019 10:47 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

@elevee, @Kyte: Thanks for the messages.

Getting off the Lookism forums was a hard habit to break, I did realize how much it distorts my worldview and self-confidence. I still can't help myself, walking on the streets, I analyze other people / men's faces, assesing their maxilla, their hairlines, and all that.

But as said, I've come to appreciate myself more, to realize that I do have my share of qualites / good traits, whether physical or of other nature.  Also that there are lots of women out there that would be attracted to me, as I've witnessed recently.

I underestimated the importance of social life in correlation with dating success. All my life being a loner, I was expecting opportunities to come to me. My logic of reasoning was: if women don't approach me  >> they don't find me attractive. But that was very much flawed.

Now that I've lost some of my anxiety and put myself out there a bit more, opportunities with come come easily.

I will keep this thread updated with pics in next few months. There are still health benefits that I'd welcome from mewing.

But whether or not I'll experience success with mewing, this will not determine my worth as a human / man.

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Posted : 06/09/2019 3:03 am
Oatmeal
Trusted Member

@greekgodbrody

holy [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] dude, i'm you ten years ago.

i stopped dabbling in the incel community now but im left with a lot of insecurity about both my face and height

i think ill get through but i'm not sure sometimes

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Posted : 06/09/2019 7:55 am
dm222
Trusted Member

man, you just need chewing, your face looks skinny because you literally have 0 masseters.

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Posted : 06/09/2019 7:37 pm
Processive
Active Member

You're a good looking dude. Even in your before pictures. As far as success with women goes you've got all you need.

My closest friend who is ridiculously succesful with girls show more signs of CFD than you do. He has that withdrawn jaw from the side. He is still pretty good looking but not in the masculine ,"slayer" way. He is however super charismatic. Everyone just loves him. Even my family likes him more than they like me (lol). People just light up around him. I really can't stress enough how succesful this guy is with girls. They melt in his presence.

And I have another friend who is very good looking. He has a broad masculine face, and deep blue eyes. His eyes are so amazing that even his guy friends sometimes just stop and go "My god, your eyes are beautiful!". He was not succesful with girls. It's hard to explain but he didn't have that masculine polarity or charisma. He is improving now though as his social skills improve. Now he is getting alot of success.

In conclusion: Good looks are awesome but they're not the most important thing when it comes to attraction.

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Posted : 06/09/2019 8:31 pm
dm222
Trusted Member

@james

he looks jew, I've heard that jew women valorize more inteligence than looks.

he doesnt look bad though

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Posted : 07/09/2019 8:44 am
andreakv
New Member

no but you do have saddle nose

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Posted : 10/09/2019 3:05 pm
mscottxy
Active Member

do a cephalometric analysis. Jefferson or Sassoumi

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Posted : 19/09/2019 3:13 am
GreekGodBrody
Trusted Member

Hi folks,

Just wanted to give an update.

Past few months I've been lazy and not consistent with my mewing practice, as such my progress has stalled. I did internalize the nose breathing 100% of the time and I'm more careful overall of my neck posture, however I have not kept the full tongue on the roof of my mouth for long enough periods.

I guess I just realized I don't have it that bad in terms of looks, also had a romantic experience in the meantime which proved me this, so I wasn't as motivated do mew as before.

If I were to make it an unconscious habit, it wouldn't require effort.

 

I do have one little problem, it definitely seems like my overbite has gotten worse in the past 6 months, since mewing and not-so-much mewing in the past 3 months. My upper front teeth now completely cover my bottom teeth when in a biting position. Also, my upper lip looks more forward VS my lower lip. My hunch is that this happened because I was putting pressure on the palate without being in a chin tuck position, and this only pushes the maxilla forward.

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Posted : 29/10/2019 2:57 am
Loliboly
Eminent Member

@greekgodbrody

Seems you are in a better place than before. Happy to hear about that! Hope your relationship works out well.

Do you still do any thumb pulling? You seemed to have some significant improvement by doing so before.

Regarding your last point, I don’t think the hypothesis is solid. Would really your maxilla have swung upwards and stayed there, while your mandible recessed? Even though I haven’t seen what you are referring to, I am tempted to think that you may see something that isn’t there. It is so easy to get overly conscious about ones looks and see things that are not necessarily there. It is a very common phenomena, and I would dare say it may apply even more to most members here, compared to average people.

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Posted : 01/11/2019 6:00 pm

This is unusual. As you and many others remarked, your maxillary position seems to be less than the Paleolithic ideal. However, you have a broad palate (around 46 millimeters) that is only a few millimeters off from those of our hunter-gatherer ancestors. You look pretty harmonious to me, and I especially envy your bone development, but do you have any guesses as to why your palate is so broad despite your downswung craniofacial complex?

 

Does anyone have any theories at all? You would think that a broad palate would compliment a compact, healthy facial structure.

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Posted : 04/11/2019 10:40 pm