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Have I over-mewed? At which point do you stop? 44-45mm IMW, 40mm Mew line. Maybe slight changes to dorsal hump.  

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auxiliary
Estimable Member

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Quote
Posted : 14/05/2020 8:44 am
Fluffycutecat
Eminent Member

I thought the ideal mew indicator line was 38mm, so to me it doesn’t suggest you’ve mewed too much. I think your measurements have improved a lot (it’s incredible you’ve managed to take 10mm off your mew indicator line).

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 8:55 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @fluffycutecat

I thought the ideal mew indicator line was 38mm, so to me it doesn’t suggest you’ve mewed too much. I think your measurements have improved a lot (it’s incredible you’ve managed to take 10mm off your mew indicator line).

I'm not sure what my indicator line was before, I just guessed, I don't remember the measurements I did 2 years ago, I thought it was between 45-55mm. I'm pretty sure though it wasn't below 45mm.

I saw some graph showing the ideal male mew indicator line is around 40-44mm, 38mm seems to me very low. Specifically talking about this : https://looksmaxxing.com/blog/mew-indicator-line/

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 8:59 am
Azrael
Estimable Member

How are you tensing your hyoid downwards to get that turkey neck appearance? I can't seem to do it, I've tried for the past 3-4 months. Are you able to do that because of a lower than average hyoid position? Because I've seen the same thing with AstroSky.

Were you able to do it even before mewing? I wonder if it comes with mewing since you and Astro have been doing this for some time. I've seen this even on Reddit btw and on lean guys like myself which has always baffled me.

Still, good progress with the mew indicator line and IMW. I wouldn't recommend you to stop mewing however as it's proper tongue posture. Maybe start doing the suction hold or soft mewing instead of hard mewing. I know you've been doing this for sometime, but for how long exactly have you been mewing?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 12:25 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Here's one picture I posted after which @Azrael said I'm tilting my head to increase my mandible prominence. I'm mentioning this because he'll probably come here again saying the same stuff, it's just how my ears are/skull is, I'd have to look at the ground to straighten them out.

Your occipital isn't stretched/extended. This isn't how you'd stand against a wall (your occipital stretches then), because that's how progress pics should be. If you look at most people's progress pics (particularly if they worked on their posture as well like helmut and Jamo) you'd notice how good their neck and head posture becomes over time. For example, helmut had a forward neck which got increasingly better in his 1 and 2 year progress pics.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

it's just how my ears are/skull is, I'd have to look at the ground to straighten them out. So for all you out there reading this : ears aren't a reliable indicator of head tilt.

You don't have to look at the ground, you can look straight ahead (parallel to the ground) from many head postitions. Look at Margot Robbie here who demonstrates nigh-perfect posture imo:

Are you working on your posture btw?

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 12:35 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Note : My wisdom teeth on upper teeth haven't erupted, and I don't think they ever will because of mewing, my upper palate is literally now wider than the wisdom teeth stuck inside my bone, if they were to erupt they'd have a much narrower distance than the second molars. Also they're straight, while my upper molars are tilted outwards. So that's why it looks like I'm measuring my second molars and not first ones, since there's no wisdom teeth.

Interesting. I've seen plenty of people on Reddit state that wisdom teeth eruption was one of the first changes they observed with mewing which seems to be true from my experience as well. How old are you? Wisdom teeth has been known to erupt even in late twenties so I wouldn't worry if I were you.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 12:59 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael

How are you tensing your hyoid downwards to get that turkey neck appearance? I can't seem to do it, I've tried for the past 3-4 months. Are you able to do that because of a lower than average hyoid position? Because I've seen the same thing with AstroSky.

Were you able to do it even before mewing? I wonder if it comes with mewing since you and Astro have been doing this for some time. I've seen this even on Reddit btw and on lean guys like myself which has always baffled me.

Still, good progress with the mew indicator line and IMW. I wouldn't recommend you to stop mewing however as it's proper tongue posture. Maybe start doing the suction hold or soft mewing instead of hard mewing. I know you've been doing this for sometime, but for how long exactly have you been mewing?

Yes I was able to do it before mewing as well, I think I am able to do it because before mewing I trained my neck a lot and I felt a lot of burn in these muscles all the time. I've been mewing on/off for two years. I'm not sure about the aesthetic results yet, you see I thought I'll always stay athletic and have high basal rate, that I'll never turn out like those frat beer guys if I don't drink beer, boy I was wrong, I gained 15-20 pounds of pure fat, I need to get rid of it before I compare before/after.

And yes my hyoid I believe is lower than average, at relaxed position it's at C4 height.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 1:31 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member

"And yes my hyoid I believe is lower than average, at relaxed position it's at C4 height."

There's an exercise to raise it's position, look it up, I once read a study about it.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 1:35 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Here's one picture I posted after which @Azrael said I'm tilting my head to increase my mandible prominence. I'm mentioning this because he'll probably come here again saying the same stuff, it's just how my ears are/skull is, I'd have to look at the ground to straighten them out.

Your occipital isn't stretched/extended. This isn't how you'd stand against a wall (your occipital stretches then), because that's how progress pics should be. If you look at most people's progress pics (particularly if they worked on their posture as well like helmut and Jamo) you'd notice how good their neck and head posture becomes over time. For example, helmut had a forward neck which got increasingly better in his 1 and 2 year progress pics.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

it's just how my ears are/skull is, I'd have to look at the ground to straighten them out. So for all you out there reading this : ears aren't a reliable indicator of head tilt.

You don't have to look at the ground, you can look straight ahead (parallel to the ground) from many head postitions. Look at Margot Robbie here who demonstrates nigh-perfect posture imo:

Are you working on your posture btw?

I am working on my posture, it's hard to have good posture and take selfie at the same time. By the way remember when I said raising chest is frauding? That's what Margot Robbie is doing, if you raise your chest you have have a forward head posture chin without actually putting your head forward, this is because you move your back backwards, so your face moves forwards. I can have extremely good facial definition if I get Margot Robbie's posture, but I'm also working on certain exercises from China and in the book they specifically advised against raising your chest, so I don't do that.

This is why I didn't like helmut before/after, if you raise your chest like that of course your chin projection will majorly improve, your face stays in the same place while the back moves backward.

 

As for the ears, I'm not Caucasian man, for my ears to be as straight as Margot Robbie's I'd be looking at the ground, I got some weird ear position.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 1:36 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Note : My wisdom teeth on upper teeth haven't erupted, and I don't think they ever will because of mewing, my upper palate is literally now wider than the wisdom teeth stuck inside my bone, if they were to erupt they'd have a much narrower distance than the second molars. Also they're straight, while my upper molars are tilted outwards. So that's why it looks like I'm measuring my second molars and not first ones, since there's no wisdom teeth.

Interesting. I've seen plenty of people on Reddit state that wisdom teeth eruption was one of the first changes they observed with mewing which seems to be true from my experience as well. How old are you? Wisdom teeth has been known to erupt even in late twenties so I wouldn't worry if I were you.

I'm 20, and I doubt they will erupt perfectly, I can feel them inside my palate, their angle is way different than that of my teeth. They're angled inside.

By the way that exercise on the hyoid, I know it, opening your mouth real fast, I tried it and it didn't give results. If I raise my hyoid for too long I get weird pressure in my ear which I don't like.

I can prove that Margot Robbie posture increases chin projection, I'll post a picture, wait a sec. I know it sounds bro-science as [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] but I read in a book once that this posture is what they use in military, it blocks off emotions or something like that, so they don't recommend doing it. The exercises I do are : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhan_zhuang

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 1:42 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member

@Azrael

Here is me pulling my chest as high as I can, almost pulled a muscle from this... Even though it looks like my head is more forward, it's actually still in the middle of my back and well balanced. Lmao I look like a goose in the picture.

Also jamo aka neveragain had the same posture in his after picture where he was sitting, I think it increased his jaw projection a lot.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 14/05/2020 1:56 pm
moemoe
Active Member

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 5:38 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @moemoe

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

I did adjust his photo once and showed him how it's done but sadly, he doesn't agree. He insists that his ears are rotated when it's still not that severe of an issue.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 5:44 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @moemoe

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

Thanks that clears it out! Though it's accuracy isn't proven, especially in non-Caucasians.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 7:43 am
Fluffycutecat
Eminent Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @fluffycutecat

I thought the ideal mew indicator line was 38mm, so to me it doesn’t suggest you’ve mewed too much. I think your measurements have improved a lot (it’s incredible you’ve managed to take 10mm off your mew indicator line).

I'm not sure what my indicator line was before, I just guessed, I don't remember the measurements I did 2 years ago, I thought it was between 45-55mm. I'm pretty sure though it wasn't below 45mm.

I saw some graph showing the ideal male mew indicator line is around 40-44mm, 38mm seems to me very low. Specifically talking about this : https://looksmaxxing.com/blog/mew-indicator-line/

 

What do you think about this? https://the-great-work.org/community/main-forum/how-recessed-are-you-how-to-track-progress-inside/

According to this, your mew indicator line seems to be ideal, and I would agree. Your brow ridge and chin are in alignment, and your face seems to have good proportions.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 8:00 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @moemoe

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

Thanks that clears it out! Though it's accuracy isn't proven, especially in non-Caucasians.

 

That's not a Caucasian-specific measurement. Your ears are fine, dude.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 8:33 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @moemoe

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

Thanks that clears it out! Though it's accuracy isn't proven, especially in non-Caucasians.

 

That's not a Caucasian-specific measurement. Your ears are fine, dude.

Source? Cause skull shapes are different between different races, a lot of Africans have ears pointing upwards.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 9:00 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @moemoe

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

Thanks that clears it out! Though it's accuracy isn't proven, especially in non-Caucasians.

 

That's not a Caucasian-specific measurement. Your ears are fine, dude.

Source? Cause skull shapes are different between different races, a lot of Africans have ears pointing upwards.

Skull structures are indeed different but show me a source where it says certain phenotypes have only rotated ears, please. Besides, your ears aren't rotated to such an extent that doesn't allow you to align your skull in the Frankfurt plane.

You actually posted a properly taken progress pic above despite you saying you looked like a goose in it. Your ears align with your armpits and shoulders come back (as seen in that pic) when you have correct posture so your chest seems more forward but that doesn't mean one is only pushing their chest forward.

The only reason you had difficulty with that posture is because you have incorrect posture by default. I had posture like you 4 months ago but now it's actually getting better after working on it and I don't push my chest forward like you are saying.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 9:33 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @moemoe

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

Thanks that clears it out! Though it's accuracy isn't proven, especially in non-Caucasians.

 

That's not a Caucasian-specific measurement. Your ears are fine, dude.

Source? Cause skull shapes are different between different races, a lot of Africans have ears pointing upwards.

Skull structures are indeed different but show me a source where it says certain phenotypes have only rotated ears, please. Besides, your ears aren't rotated to such an extent that doesn't allow you to align your skull in the Frankfurt plane.

You actually posted a properly taken progress pic above despite you saying you looked like a goose in it. Your ears align with your armpits and shoulders come back (as seen in that pic) when you have correct posture so your chest seems more forward but that doesn't mean one is only pushing their chest forward.

The only reason you had difficulty with that posture is because you have incorrect posture by default. I had posture like you 4 months ago but now it's actually getting better after working on it and I don't push my chest forward like you are saying.

Not forward, but upward ^^. Not arguing anymore about the ears, bro.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 11:40 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @moemoe

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

Thanks that clears it out! Though it's accuracy isn't proven, especially in non-Caucasians.

 

That's not a Caucasian-specific measurement. Your ears are fine, dude.

Source? Cause skull shapes are different between different races, a lot of Africans have ears pointing upwards.

I think it should be fair to assume that the ears and the eyes have a universal, fixed relationship due to how both sensory organs need to co-operate in order to provide an accurate three dimensional impression of the surroundings. The rotation and the shape of the ear lobe may certainly differ, since those attributes have mostly aesthetic relevance, but the tragus itself is likely to exist at a very precise height in relation to the eyes, validating the Frankfurt plane as a standard anatomical position regardless of race or phenotype.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 5:00 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael

Posted by: @auxiliarus

Here's one picture I posted after which @Azrael said I'm tilting my head to increase my mandible prominence. I'm mentioning this because he'll probably come here again saying the same stuff, it's just how my ears are/skull is, I'd have to look at the ground to straighten them out.

Your occipital isn't stretched/extended. This isn't how you'd stand against a wall (your occipital stretches then), because that's how progress pics should be. If you look at most people's progress pics (particularly if they worked on their posture as well like helmut and Jamo) you'd notice how good their neck and head posture becomes over time. For example, helmut had a forward neck which got increasingly better in his 1 and 2 year progress pics.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

it's just how my ears are/skull is, I'd have to look at the ground to straighten them out. So for all you out there reading this : ears aren't a reliable indicator of head tilt.

You don't have to look at the ground, you can look straight ahead (parallel to the ground) from many head postitions. Look at Margot Robbie here who demonstrates nigh-perfect posture imo:

Are you working on your posture btw?

By the way I don't think this posture is good for you long-term, too much tension in the back pulling the chest upwards. Why do some people have normal posture or even hunched and still amazing chin? When you push your chest up, yes your hyoid goes backwards, but this also looks feminine as hell, your hyoid becomes invisible.

To me it looks like there's something funky going in in with the hyoid/adam's apple, I can't quite figure out what is, why do some men have very low and protruding adam's apple, yet their hyoid bone seems to be high up? It seems like the angles or perhaps even the distance between the larynx(adam's apple) and hyoid bone can be different between people.

 

The only thing holding the larynx and the hyoid bone together are ligaments, ligaments can be compressed or stretched out. Over time, theoretically, if a hyoid bone was low set, the ligaments would shorten significantly just like any other connective tissue would, constant stretching forces are required to prevent it from shortening. What if mouth breathers constantly depressed their hyoid, over time the ligaments became shorter and shorter, and eventually the hyoid bone got pulled downwards as well, closer to the larynx, pulling all the muscles connected to the hyoid bone downwards as well, which means the digastric, geniohyoid and even the genioglossus.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 5:10 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member

Found it, the distance between the hyoid and the larynx isn't constant and is regulated by a muscle, I'd assume constant low hyoid position would eventually shorten this muscle making it hard to raise the hyoid bone without raising the whole heavy larynx with it.

The thyrohyoid muscle is a small skeletal muscle on the neck which depresses the hyoid and elevates the larynx

By the way if I touch my hyoid and larynx, the distance between them is nowhere near that used in anatomical pictures, I couldn't find studies on actual distance, but my hyoid bone and larynx are literally almost touching. The laryngeal incisure and the lower anterior part of my hyoid are like 1mm apart, maybe less.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 15/05/2020 5:32 pm
ayla mao
Active Member

Would you mind posting a picture of your palate/teeth from below angle. You kind of still look recessed (could be that you just need to lose some fat) but a 45 mm IMW is impressive.

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Posted : 16/05/2020 2:31 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ayla-mao

Would you mind posting a picture of your palate/teeth from below angle. You kind of still look recessed (could be that you just need to lose some fat) but a 45 mm IMW is impressive.

Ton of fat on face to be honest, I store all of my fat inside my stomach, glutes and face for some reason. I went up from like 12% to 22% body-fat. Currently losing weight. Also my selfies are from a reasonably short distance, it distorts the face making it longer vertically and shorter horizontally.

My side profile was always [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated] though, front profile is way better.

I also think long-hair contributes a lot to this effect, it makes it looks like the back of my head is huge and my face is small. My head is pretty big horizontally, I dunno why.

Here's a picture of my palate, there's still lens distortion going on at this close distance, the closer I take the picture, the narrower the palate seems :

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 9:32 am
ayla mao
Active Member

@auxiliarus

Yeah it actually looks quite wide in the back. You might need a bit more width in the frontal part for incisors/canines, but that's just nitpicking.

I guess you achieved most of your lateral growh, but I'd say according to your pics you still have more room for forward growth and for changing your maxillary pitch.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 10:02 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Here's a picture of my palate, there's still lens distortion going on at this close distance, the closer I take the picture, the narrower the palate seems :

 

palate

You should have used the rear camera with flash on. That's how I take all my progress pics, the front cam distorts way more from what I've seen.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 10:08 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ayla-mao

@auxiliarus

Yeah it actually looks quite wide in the back. You might need a bit more width in the frontal part for incisors/canines, but that's just nitpicking.

I guess you achieved most of your lateral growh, but I'd say according to your pics you still have more room for forward growth and for changing your maxillary pitch.

I think it's just my IMW being too wide, my ICW at the outer edges of my canines is 36mm, I am not sure if you're supposed to measure outer edges of the canines or not, to me it seems to be the most practical way. Inner-edges of the canine teeth probably have like a width of 30mm.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 10:16 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Here's a picture of my palate, there's still lens distortion going on at this close distance, the closer I take the picture, the narrower the palate seems :

 

palate

You should have used the rear camera with flash on. That's how I take all my progress pics, the front cam distorts way more from what I've seen.

Yep true, but my camera sucks, I got a Chinese Huawei phone, it distorts everything real bad. Close-up pictures give me fWHR of like 1.4-1.5, while pictures at distance give me fWHR of 1.7-1.9. I also just realized I had a really good picture taken for my ID a long-time ago, my fWHR there is 1.6, so chewing/mewing definitely increased fWHR significantly.

Also you got any tips for posture? You said you were training. Tbh I'm even disgusted to post my neck posture from far away, my head is like 5cm forward and my neck is totally slouched/shortened. My body posture seems to be okayish, in a straight line it aligns well between toes/hips/shoulders, I'd say slight forward hunch at the shoulders, mostly [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]-up neck posture.

I even sleep with my whole head forward and neck close to chest, It's just uncomfortable to sleep straight, this is probably bad af for mandible projection.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 10:21 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @ayla-mao

@auxiliarus

Yeah it actually looks quite wide in the back. You might need a bit more width in the frontal part for incisors/canines, but that's just nitpicking.

I guess you achieved most of your lateral growh, but I'd say according to your pics you still have more room for forward growth and for changing your maxillary pitch.

I wish I could take an X-ray to know for sure whether it's recession or soft tissue, even if my mandible was a few cm forward it wouldn't be prominent, turkey neck is just too strong.

 

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 10:24 am
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Also you got any tips for posture? You said you were training. Tbh I'm even disgusted to post my neck posture from far away, my head is like 5cm forward and my neck is totally slouched/shortened. My body posture seems to be okayish, in a straight line it aligns well between toes/hips/shoulders, I'd say slight forward hunch at the shoulders, mostly [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]-up neck posture.

Yeah, what I'm trying to do is get rid of all the habits that caused me to have bad posture in the first place like slouching and sagging when sitting or standing. I don't do any other postural exercises as I have not yet started hitting the gym and tensing my lower abs and core when standing, walking and chin tucking has helped me with my terrible forward neck, rounded shoulders and APT.

But Jeff Cavaliere (Athlean-X) from YouTube has some really good videos on correctional exercises that's apparently helped a ton of people in YouTube and Reddit. Some of the posture related exercises could be done without gym equipment and by only using everyday items such as broomsticks and towels. You should check him out, especially since you seem to be working out at the moment. Dude's got degrees in physiotherapy and microbiology (iirc) so he knows his stuff  than most other bro-science YouTube gurus. Only problem is his vids seem a bit click-baitish and there's no structure in his channel much like the Orthotropics channel.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

I even sleep with my whole head forward and neck close to chest, It's just uncomfortable to sleep straight, this is probably bad af for mandible projection.

I used to sleep on my back without a pillow during the first one or two months but after reading that helmutstrebl slept with his head on the edge of a pillow (in a chin-tuck position) during his first year, I adopted his advice. I realized that my tongue sticks on the palate far better until morning using the latter method. Also, I read an article (Weston Price iirc) that native Americans slept on their backs with a stone and in a chin-tuck position and that contributed in their forward growth.

However, side sleeping has its pros as well (the glymphatic transport for one) but the trade-off with inevitable wrinkles and potential asymmetries isn't that appealing to me.

ReplyQuote
Posted : 16/05/2020 11:17 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Also you got any tips for posture? You said you were training. Tbh I'm even disgusted to post my neck posture from far away, my head is like 5cm forward and my neck is totally slouched/shortened. My body posture seems to be okayish, in a straight line it aligns well between toes/hips/shoulders, I'd say slight forward hunch at the shoulders, mostly [Rude Language or Insults are not tolerated]-up neck posture.

Yeah, what I'm trying to do is get rid of all the habits that caused me to have bad posture in the first place like slouching and sagging when sitting or standing. I don't do any other postural exercises as I have not yet started hitting the gym and tensing my lower abs and core when standing, walking and chin tucking has helped me with my terrible forward neck, rounded shoulders and APT.

But Jeff Cavaliere (Athlean-X) from YouTube has some really good videos on correctional exercises that's apparently helped a ton of people in YouTube and Reddit. Some of the posture related exercises could be done without gym equipment and by only using everyday items such as broomsticks and towels. You should check him out, especially since you seem to be working out at the moment. Dude's got degrees in physiotherapy and microbiology (iirc) so he knows his stuff  than most other bro-science YouTube gurus. Only problem is his vids seem a bit click-baitish and there's no structure in his channel much like the Orthotropics channel.

Posted by: @auxiliarus

I even sleep with my whole head forward and neck close to chest, It's just uncomfortable to sleep straight, this is probably bad af for mandible projection.

I used to sleep on my back without a pillow during the first one or two months but after reading that helmutstrebl slept with his head on the edge of a pillow (in a chin-tuck position) during his first year, I adopted his advice. I realized that my tongue sticks on the palate far better until morning using the latter method. Also, I read an article (Weston Price iirc) that native Americans slept on their backs with a stone and in a chin-tuck position and that contributed in their forward growth.

However, side sleeping has its pros as well (the glymphatic transport for one) but the trade-off with inevitable wrinkles and potential asymmetries isn't that appealing to me.

I know Jeff Cavaliere, I saw his postural videos, my body posture is okay, I do chest streches, psoas stretches, upper trapezius stretches, lower trapezius training, glute and abs training. As for chin-tucking I avoid it cause it tenses my hyoid muscles even more.

Do you know any exercise specifically targeting the neck?

I just tried one where you're supposed to lay down and then raise your head slightly, instead of using my neck muscles I actually used my digastric and hyoid muscles to lift my head up, lol. If I don't use them I literally can't lift my head upwards. The effect is my hyoid becomes significantly tensed downwards just to lift my head up.

All the hyoid muscles are very small and aren't supposed to be used for functions such as lifting the head, that's the job of SCM and maybe a little bit of the scalenes muscles.

One of the big problems with stretching your head is that there's isn't a single muscle that can actually pull your head upwards, instead I believe that during sleep, breathing pushes cervical bones apart.

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Posted : 16/05/2020 12:09 pm
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus
Posted by: @moemoe

Regarding the question of your skull or your head tilt you'll have to rotate the picture to correct it. Have a look at the Frankfort plane

"In humans, the anatomical position of the skull has been agreed by international convention to be the Frankfurt plane or Frankfort plane, a position in which the lower margins of the orbits, the orbitales, and the upper margins of the ear canals, the poria, all lie in the same horizontal plane."

 

M.

Thanks that clears it out! Though it's accuracy isn't proven, especially in non-Caucasians.

 

That's not a Caucasian-specific measurement. Your ears are fine, dude.

Source? Cause skull shapes are different between different races, a lot of Africans have ears pointing upwards.

I think it should be fair to assume that the ears and the eyes have a universal, fixed relationship due to how both sensory organs need to co-operate in order to provide an accurate three dimensional impression of the surroundings. The rotation and the shape of the ear lobe may certainly differ, since those attributes have mostly aesthetic relevance, but the tragus itself is likely to exist at a very precise height in relation to the eyes, validating the Frankfurt plane as a standard anatomical position regardless of race or phenotype.

I made a long essay on why everything you said isn't fair to assume, but then found this :

The Frankfurt plane is a plane formed by drawing a straight horizontal line from the top of the ear canal to the bottom border of the eye along either side of the human skull. The line is called a Frankfurt horizontal line (FHL) and is an important reference point in medical imaging studies. The plane itself is used as a standard reference in anthropometry — the science that studies measurements of human anatomy in order to describe variations in human characteristics.

The plane is also called the auriculo-orbital plane because it passes through the auriculus, or ear, and the orbitales, or eye sockets. It was established in 1884 in Frankfurt, Germany, by the World Congress of Anthropology. The Frankfurt plane became the principal standard of skull measurement because it also identifies the normal plane in which the head is positioned parallel to the ground.

Because the Frankfurt plane serves as a benchmark for making skull measurements, it is also called a craniometric plane. This is simply a point on the skull, or cranium, from which measurements can be made. Craniometric measurements made on the exterior of the skull have endocranial equivalents, which are points within the skull that correspond to the external measurements.

Craniometric measurements are an important factor in administering MRIs and CT scans. In 1962, the World Federation of Radiology defined Reid’s base line — a line derived from the Frankfurt plane — as the zero plane to be used in medical imaging. This line extends the Frankfurt plane from the lower eye sockets through the point of the ear onward towards the back of the head to the center of the occipital bone at the lower part of the skull. The line can be shown graphically with the head leaning slightly backward, and tilting up about 7 degrees from the horizontal Frankfurt plane.

Basically, however, the Frankfurt plane was designed to be a frame of reference for identifying skeletal variations in human anatomy from an anthropological viewpoint. The plane established a standard for measuring the human body and comparing differences in races by matching these variations with known measurements for particular individuals. Since the median path of the Frankfurt plane follows a line 0.827 inches (21 mm) below the center of the external ear canal and varies from 0.20-3.82 inches (5-97 mm) as it progresses to the lower border of the eye, this means that the variations can be due to differences in facial structures. Such variations have been found to characterize different racial types, which begin to differ at the point where the top border of the lateral nasal sinus changes direction.

In this regard, different races have been found to share a relatively uniform degree of change within a particular range of measurements. For example, British measurements have been found to be concentrated within 0.15 inches (3.75 mm) below the ear canal and to be located 0.10 inches (2.66 mm) below the point where the lateral sinus changes direction. Similarly, measurements of the Chinese have been shown to be localized within a range of 0-0.20 inches (0-5 mm) below the ear canal and 0.40 inches (10-0 mm) below the point where the lateral sinus changes direction. The significance of such measurements has not yet been determined; however the evolutionary impact of genetic divergences of the human species may extend far into the future.

Frankfurt plane is not accurate enough nor used to point out a head-tilt in patients.

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Posted : 19/05/2020 2:28 pm
Progress
Member Moderator

@auxiliarus

Hmm. First it is stated that the Frankfurt plane is 

a straight horizontal line from the top of the ear canal to the bottom border of the eye 

then it is pointed out that

the median path of the Frankfurt plane follows a line 0.827 inches (21 mm) below the center of the external ear canal

British measurements have been found to be concentrated within 0.15 inches (3.75 mm) below the ear canal

Chinese have been shown to be localized within a range of 0-0.20 inches (0-5 mm) below the ear canal

If Frankfurt plane is defined as a line that begins from the ear canal and ends at the bottom of the eye, then what is this deviation that is being measured? Certainly not the Frankfurt plane! By what principle is it determined that the "median Frankfurt plane" follows a line that actually is not the Frankfurt plane? The ear canal and the bottom of the eye define the FP. Either you draw the line along these markers, or you are measuring something else (i.e. applying some other principle that determines cranial tilt). There is no median -- the line is determined the same exact way for each human. 

Whether or not the line has perfect universal utility in regards to determining neutral cranial tilt is a valid question, but I can't see the article you quoted being a direct argument against it. But if it was, 3-5 millimetres of race-specific variation in ear canal height would be quite insignificant in the context of the head tilts discussed in this thread, since the resulting difference in the angle of the plane would be but a few degrees. I re-emphasize that it makes utmost biological sense for the ears and the eyes to be at similar height, due to how we relate to our environment. The same relationship can be seen in our evolutionary cousins:

Our closest relative…the Bonobo | iFink!

 

Thus, unless the height of ears itself should change radically depending on the type of one's craniofacial dystrophy, I can't think of a more valid way to determine neutral head tilt than the Frankfurt plane. 

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Posted : 19/05/2020 5:14 pm
Azrael liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress

@auxiliarus

Hmm. First it is stated that the Frankfurt plane is 

a straight horizontal line from the top of the ear canal to the bottom border of the eye 

then it is pointed out that

the median path of the Frankfurt plane follows a line 0.827 inches (21 mm) below the center of the external ear canal

British measurements have been found to be concentrated within 0.15 inches (3.75 mm) below the ear canal

Chinese have been shown to be localized within a range of 0-0.20 inches (0-5 mm) below the ear canal

If Frankfurt plane is defined as a line that begins from the ear canal and ends at the bottom of the eye, then what is this deviation that is being measured? Certainly not the Frankfurt plane! By what principle is it determined that the "median Frankfurt plane" follows a line that actually is not the Frankfurt plane? The ear canal and the bottom of the eye define the FP. Either you draw the line along these markers, or you are measuring something else (i.e. applying some other principle that determines cranial tilt). There is no median -- the line is determined the same exact way for each human. 

Whether or not the line has perfect universal utility in regards to determining neutral cranial tilt is a valid question, but I can't see the article you quoted being a direct argument against it. But if it was, 3-5 millimetres of race-specific variation in ear canal height would be quite insignificant in the context of the head tilts discussed in this thread, since the resulting difference in the angle of the plane would be but a few degrees. I re-emphasize that it makes utmost biological sense for the ears and the eyes to be at similar height, due to how we relate to our environment. The same relationship can be seen in our evolutionary cousins:

Our closest relative…the Bonobo | iFink!

 

Thus, unless the height of ears itself should change radically depending on the type of one's craniofacial dystrophy, I can't think of a more valid way to determine neutral head tilt than the Frankfurt plane. 

One thing is to think of a way, another is to test it's accuracy. A few millimeters of change in position of an end of a line can make a big difference in angle, depending on the length of that line. In the Chinese the variation is from 0-5mm below ear canal and up to 10mm at the point where lateral sinus changes direction, which I honestly have no idea what point that is, I assume they mean the sphenoidal sinus, it can indeed make huge differences in the angle of the Frankfurt plane.

So is it an accurate way to predict a head tilt? I'd say no. Either way why would I use this? Before making my pictures, I align my eyes to the middle of my vision and stare directly straight ahead, whether my head is straight or not has no meaning to me or what shape it is, I'm literally looking straight ahead.

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Posted : 19/05/2020 5:48 pm
Azrael
Estimable Member
Posted by: @auxiliarus

So is it an accurate way to predict a head tilt? I'd say no. Either way why would I use this? Before making my pictures, I align my eyes to the middle of my vision and stare directly straight ahead, whether my head is straight or not has no meaning to me or what shape it is, I'm literally looking straight ahead.

Looking straight ahead doesn't mean you are not tilting your head as you can look "straight ahead" from different angles, as I told you in another thread as well.

You are doing the same thing as the three individuals on the above picture seems to be doing. This is why your "rotated ears" doesn't justify your head tilt, when you can perfectly align it according to the Frankfurt plane:

You are free to believe whatever you want though, I'm just making it clear to the people who might read this thread and decide that they can't align their head properly as well.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 4:46 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @azrael
Posted by: @auxiliarus

So is it an accurate way to predict a head tilt? I'd say no. Either way why would I use this? Before making my pictures, I align my eyes to the middle of my vision and stare directly straight ahead, whether my head is straight or not has no meaning to me or what shape it is, I'm literally looking straight ahead.

Looking straight ahead doesn't mean you are not tilting your head as you can look "straight ahead" from different angles, as I told you in another thread as well.

You are doing the same thing as the three individuals on the above picture seems to be doing. This is why your "rotated ears" doesn't justify your head tilt, when you can perfectly align it according to the Frankfurt plane:

You are free to believe whatever you want though, I'm just making it clear to the people who might read this thread and decide that they can't align their head properly as well.

You misunderstood, I put my eyes in the middle of my FOV and then look straight ahead, these people are looking with their eyes upwards and downwards. I look right in the middle of the line between my eyebrow and my lower eyelid, they're looking either up towards their eyebrows or down towards their eyelids. It's a free country though, you can believe what you want as well ^^.

 

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Posted : 20/05/2020 7:16 am
Progress
Member Moderator
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Either way why would I use this? 

Yes, that is a valid point. Regardless of the (in)validity of the FP, there is no guarantee that maintaining horizontally neutral head tilt is going to result in favorable muscle activation in a downswung cranium. It may be that one needs to rotate their head significantly above what could be considered neutral head tilt in order to ensure that the musculature is engaging properly. For example, if your palate curves downwards, you may need to simulate a horizontally neutral palatal curve before the palate-dependent muscles can function correctly.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 3:54 pm
auxiliary liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @progress
Posted by: @auxiliarus

Either way why would I use this? 

Yes, that is a valid point. Regardless of the (in)validity of the FP, there is no guarantee that maintaining horizontally neutral head tilt is going to result in favorable muscle activation in a downswung cranium. It may be that one needs to rotate their head significantly above what could be considered neutral head tilt in order to ensure that the musculature is engaging properly. For example, if your palate curves downwards, you may need to simulate a horizontally neutral palatal curve before the palate-dependent muscles can function correctly.

It also could be that these small changes in posture mean nothing over long-term changes with strong tongue posture. Most bone resorption happens in REM sleep, most bone formation happens during sleep, though the bone formation peak isn't that huge during sleep compared to bone resorption.

If we're strictly talking about shortening the maxilla, we're talking about bone resorption, most results will come from a tensed tongue during REM sleep. When sleeping the head tilt doesn't matter for the tongue, as there's no downwards gravity anymore, gravity is either pushing on one of the sides or the front/back, depending on sleep position.

Also the cells responsible for transferring mechanical signals into chemical signals are most active during sleep, with a rather strong peak, further indicating how important mewing is during sleep.

Sources on bone remodelling : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5994176/

What's interesting is that too much pressure causes bone formation, which slows shortening(resorption) of the maxilla. This is perhaps what Mike Mew said when he meant that bone resists hard changes.

Sources on that claim : https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5855

In fact no tissue loading had the strongest resorption rate.

Of course we don't want only resorption, this would keep the maxilla long but make it thin and weak, instead we want it to remodel slowly into a different shape, by taking some bone from one area and put it into another area, trying too hard though may make it too resistive, not trying at all will not change it's shape.

Specifically I think the alveolar ridge and the lower maxilla need to remodel mostly upwards and slightly forward.

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Posted : 20/05/2020 6:49 pm
PaperBag liked
Meowxilla
Eminent Member

@auxiliarus

I think more load is better if we think of bone as solid metal bar. More and steady force would bend it faster but that's not how bone works.

I have this study https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5855

There is a graph

 Tissue loading (MPa , what is that?) But yeah after some force bone only grows more than it loses mass. Just like graph says it should happen around 0.015 MPa , whatever it means. 

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Posted : 22/08/2020 11:03 pm
Limebike
Active Member

@meowxilla I think MPa stands for mega Pascal (unit for pressure)

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Posted : 24/08/2020 4:02 pm
Meowxilla liked
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @meowxilla

@auxiliarus

I think more load is better if we think of bone as solid metal bar. More and steady force would bend it faster but that's not how bone works.

I have this study https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms5855

There is a graph

 Tissue loading (MPa , what is that?) But yeah after some force bone only grows more than it loses mass. Just like graph says it should happen around 0.015 MPa , whatever it means. 

I posted the same study before, at higher pressure the bone actually stops growing and resorbing. Personally I am having right now stronger results from soft mewing than hard mewing, but we'll see.

 

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Posted : 26/08/2020 3:10 pm
chiefkeefsosa
Active Member

You should post result pics using these pics as reference. Despite having an ideal indicator line, it looks like you still have a long way to go with mewing. Good luck

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Posted : 26/09/2020 7:06 pm
Limebike
Active Member

@chiefkeefsosa He measured the indicator line incorrectly. It is not about where the ruler touches the nose first. You have to extend it to the intersection of the nose tangent with the Frankfort plane. So by that measurement, he his Mew indicator length is 44 mm. Ideal is 38 mm.

Also, as pointed out by someone else, he is tilting his head backward. I don't think you need to look hard to see that his face is pretty flat.

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Posted : 26/09/2020 11:05 pm
chiefkeefsosa
Active Member

@limebike Good observation, I just checked and your right, his mew line seems average and nothing special.   And yeah is face is pretty flat and his maxilla is unaesthetic, he even looks class 3 in the pic where he's measuring his mew line.   Hoping we can get some pics from @auxiliary because he's been saying he's been getting changes from soft mewing(which I doubt). 

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Posted : 27/09/2020 11:54 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @limebike

@chiefkeefsosa He measured the indicator line incorrectly. It is not about where the ruler touches the nose first. You have to extend it to the intersection of the nose tangent with the Frankfort plane. So by that measurement, he his Mew indicator length is 44 mm. Ideal is 38 mm.

Also, as pointed out by someone else, he is tilting his head backward. I don't think you need to look hard to see that his face is pretty flat.

I wasn't tilting my head backward, but yeah in those pictures my profile was garbage, all cause I wasted time hard mewing and chewing like an ape causing CW maxilla rotation.

But the pics were also done using selfies with huge distortion, mirror pics from distance look way different.

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Posted : 28/09/2020 4:43 am
auxiliary
Estimable Member
Posted by: @chiefkeefsosa

@limebike Good observation, I just checked and your right, his mew line seems average and nothing special.   And yeah is face is pretty flat and his maxilla is unaesthetic, he even looks class 3 in the pic where he's measuring his mew line.   Hoping we can get some pics from @auxiliary because he's been saying he's been getting changes from soft mewing(which I doubt). 

My mew line is average, I never claimed otherwise, I just said it changed from 50+mm to 42-44mm. I can't recognize myself from the pictures anymore, I didn't even compare my current self to previous pictures I just knew the changes were there. And I know you want pictures, but you're not getting any, I don't want the same drama that jamo had, what you guys think or are going to do doesn't matter much to me, I just don't want you to waste your time like I did doing too much upwards pressure without forward one.

 

EDIT : Also all my selfies are misleading, they have a ridicilous distortion, if I take a pictue of a door the door becomes almost a triangle, I don't know what's wrong with Huawei cameras.

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Posted : 28/09/2020 4:51 am